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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:29 PM
Original message
My last post
It's time to move on. Health and life issues have arisen that demand I pay attention to them. Bless you all and I wish you all good things! I found this post, written by a Brit, but it says what I want to say. Life life to the fullest. It is so brief. So very brief.

*****
The Times October 09, 2006

I'm oppressed, you're oppressed, we are all oppressed: the victim culture
By Anthony Browne, Chief Political Correspondent

Do we live in a victim culture? Join the debate

THE vast majority of people in Britain are officially oppressed, according to a report that claims we have become a “nation of victims”.

The study calculates that 73 per cent of Britons are members of officially recognised “victim groups”, including the disabled, women, ethnic minorities and homosexuals. Each group is given government support, including protective legislation.

The report, We’re (Nearly) All Victims Now, by the socially conservative think- tank Civitas, gives warning that the rise of a “victimocracy” undermines democracy because people are no longer considered equal under law.

“We have become a nation of victims,” it says. “Victimhood today is a political status that is sought after because of the advantages it brings, including preferential treatment in the workplace, the possibility of using police power to silence unwelcome critics, and financial compensation. To be classified as a victim is to be given a special political status, which has no necessary connection with real hardship or oppression.”

In October next year the Government is setting up the Commission for Equality and Human Rights, which merges the disability, race and equal opportunities commissions.

Many people, such as black women, are victims of so-called multiple discrimination. The report uses official figures to strip out the overlapping groups to calculate that nearly three quarters of people belong to one category or other. The biggest oppressed group is women, who constitute 51 per cent of the population and are protected by a range of legislation covering discrimination, equal pay and domestic violence. Ethnic minority men amount to 4 per cent; white disabled men 11 per cent; white male pensioners 5 per cent; and white, gay, able-bodied men, 2 per cent.

The report attacks the increasing tendency to judge crimes as more serious if they are committed against official victims — so-called hate crimes. Police have been encouraged to give priority to such cases, which the Civitas report says is undermining equality under the law.

It cites the trial this year of the killers of Jody Dobrowski, a barman murdered on Clapham Common, South London, in October last year. Jailing the two men for 28 years, the judge said that the sentence would have been halved if they had not voiced any opposition to the victim’s sexuality. “Is animosity to gays a worse motive than, for example, a calculated killing to silence a witness?” it asks.

It also states that claiming official victim status enables groups to silence critics, often using taking offence as a political tactic. The benefits of taking offence are so great in any debate, that it has encouraged the growth of “increasing touchiness” in Britain.

However, the report gives warning that seeking victim status can harm the victims, denying them personal responsibility by always blaming others and undermining their self-respect.



Tallahassee Grannie
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Will miss ya grannie! :( here is something to cheer you up I hope:
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 03:32 PM by The Straight Story
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. People with "Free hugs" signs used to be standard fare
at some of the Grateful Dead shows I used to attend. I always took one.
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. I saw them at a Phil Lesh show a couple years back
So I guess Phil fans are carrying on the tradition.

Here's a free hug for you :hug:

:D
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Right back at ya Wicket!
:hug:
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Jokinomx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
40. Thanks for the link
I loved video... I have already sent it to someone that needs a hug...:-)

:toast:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. take care of you. will miss you. from the
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 03:36 PM by seabeyond
heart

love you

no oppressed here. no victim, life is too short.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. Best wishes Tallahassee Grannie
you will be missed. If and when you have a chance some time in the future - please drop us nod, a wave and a smile. :hug:
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. In an ironic twist, even the anti-victims now feel victimized.
:hi:

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
100. true irony: the perpetrators complaining of being victimized by
their victims' daring to stand up against them.

why, how dare the oppressed COMPLAIN about it?!

why, those poor (unearned-)privileged people having to look at the lot of those they oppress...

maybe THAT is the irony TG meant to convey in posting that OP. you think?


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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
172. When I read that article I thought an obvious group was missing:
Edited on Tue Nov-21-06 12:22 PM by Commie Pinko Dirtbag
The Persecuted Christians of America™.

But then I remembered the article is from Britain. The wailing of those particular pseudo-victims is certainly not as strident there.

Edit: now I gave it a more thorough read. It's right-wing bigoted poppycock of the lowest kind.
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Systematic Chaos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. Best of luck to you, and hope to see you back.
Good luck in resolving whatever problems you're facing, and know that we're always here to listen if you need a place to talk about stuff. Hope to see you back soon. :)
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
6. Dear T.G.
All my Best to you. I hope the issues, (health & life) are satisfactorily resolved and that you can stop in and say "hi" now and again.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
8. Bye Grannie, you'll be missed.
Come back and visit if you get a chance.

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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
9. I've enjoyed your writings Grannie
Peace be with you and yours always. We hope you can stop in to say hi again some time soon. Good journey to you whatever that journey may be
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hsher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. We will miss you
Let us know if we can help, and you'd better return when things get better. ;)
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
11. I'll miss you dearly TG!
:( Very sorry to see you go. Lots of love :hug:
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
12. You'll be missed!
Take good care of yourself!
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
13. You exceeded the four paragraph max on quoting articles.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
14. All the best to you, Grannie
I'll miss you, but I understand. :hug:
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jeanarrett Donating Member (813 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
15. You don't know me, but I've enjoyed your posts
very much! I will miss you and hope all the best for you and what is going on in your life.

Keep a positve outlook!
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plcdude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
16. You got to do
what you got to do but we will miss you. Stop by once in awhile if you can.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
17. Good luck and fare well.
I hope it's not farewell. :hi:
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
18. All the best, TG. We'll miss you. NT
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cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
20. Come back soon!
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
21. Hey TG, best wishes to you too!
We will miss you posts. Hope you can make it back again.

:grouphug:
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
23. Bummer. We could use your insights.
Take care of yourself and check back in when you can.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
24. You will be missed Gran....
I always have enjoyed your posts, regardless of whether I agreed with them or not. You are consistently a voice of civility and reason.

Best of luck to you, and I hope you'll come around this way again.

:hug:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
25. Wishing you and your family peace, TallaGrannie.
.
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Parche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
26. best wishes
Happiness at least!!!!!
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
27. God's speed, Grannie...n/t
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
28. So long TG
There are very few posters I know at first glance, but your Al Gore avatar and cool name made you stand out.

Good luck in all you choose to do.
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jackster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
29. Grannie....
I will miss you - best wishes and keep up the good fight

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
30. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
31. I have enjoyed reading your posts. Thank you for contributing!
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
32. Take care :-) BTW, did you paste the wrong article to go with your
post? I found it kind of offensive but I'm assuming this is a case of rushed cut and paste that went wrong.

Anyway, didn't know you but good luck with your health and family! :hi:
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
33. We probably never talked
But I like you. Just thought you should know. Be good. If not, be good at it.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
34. Oh Grannie
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 05:30 PM by stellanoir
I've posted and sent this many times before and I didn't write it but I'm especially complelled to send it to you. . .

BLESSING

"I send you light to hold you in love.
I send you light to heal you in love.

May you love, honor, and cherish the preciousness and uniqueness of your own being and of each other being in this world.

May you see your own goodness and beauty reflected wherever you look. May you be contented and appreciative of all life's bountiful gifts.

May the splendor and majesty of your being guide your thoughts, words, and actions.

May your pain and fear be transformed into strength,
understanding, and compassion.

May the shining light of your being radiate peace and harmony wherever you are.

May you be suffused with happiness, joyfully celebrating each day you are alive.

May you be abundant in all wealth and rich in generosity, sharing your feelings freely.

May you be a soothing balm of kindness and a fragrant blossom of love to everyone you meet.

May you be well whole and healthy.

May the great love and compassion of your heart embrace and help to redeem the suffering of all beings everywhere.

May the inner light of your purity and perfection dissolve the clouds of discord, despair, and conflict.

May the intelligence and wisdom of your infinite mind give you clarity in a confusing world.

May you trust that you are loved, cared for and supported by the infinite always.

May you possess the precious magic jewel of gratitude that transforms all life into a paradise.

May pause for a moment each day to remember this blessing upon you, and calling forth the full power and magnificence of your own being, may you pass it on to all beings everywhere.

I send you light to hold you in love.
I send you light to heal you in love."

I'm seeing you healthy, wholly healed and at peace.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. That is quite beautiful :)
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Yeah I think so too
In my darkest moments just reading that daily helped me so-o-o much.

It's beauty lies in it's stark simplicity for sure.

Consider sending it to whomever you know who is either celebrating or suffering or somewhere in between. It's uplifting for sure.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. I'm in awe
In reading it, I wish all these things for Grannie T
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #34
91. very well said, stellanoir. magnanimous:
"...compelled to send it to you. . .

BLESSING

'....

May your pain and fear be transformed into strength,
understanding, and compassion.

....

May the intelligence and wisdom of your infinite mind give you clarity in a confusing world.

....

may you pass it on to all beings everywhere.

I send you light to hold you in love.
I send you light to heal you in love.'

I'm seeing you healthy, wholly healed and at peace."


all truly apropos

may she be touched by the guidance you share.


peace!
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
35. Nooo! Take care of your goodness.
Warmest Regards.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
38. I hope life brings to you all that you wish
and that you have health and happiness... Life is too short so grab it all while you can... Best wishes to you and yours.....


Dogday...........
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
39. Aw damn. I'm sorry to see you go. Always enjoyed your posts.
I hope you conquer those health problems and come back to us. Your insights are so valuable!

:hug:
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
41. Wishes for the best go with you, Grannie.
You'll be missed. Hope you'll be able to find your way back to us again when things get better.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
43. Oh, I will miss you!
I'm so sad to read this! One of my favorite posters.

I wish you well. And I'll continue to hope that you'll be back.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
44. Blessings, peace and strength to you, Grannie. nt
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
45. Thank You, TallahassieGrannie...
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 09:22 PM by cynatnite
I love your posts and always smile whenever you replied to one of mine. Your wonderful sense of humor always brightened my day. Take care of yourself. Sending good thoughts your way.

Enjoy the holidays and who knows...maybe we will see you again here.
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
46. Later, TG. The religion/theology forum will be lesser for your absence.
Good luck to you in everything you do in life!:toast:
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Booster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
47. I always read your posts and I am going to miss you. Whatever
life has dealt you right now, I know you will overcome the bad things and be just as sassy as ever. I wish you only the best and hope you drop in from time to time just to say Hi. I, too, have had some health issues and if I would just get off this contraption and move around a little more I would be so much better off. Maybe someday, like you, I will come to my senses and realize there's more to life than sitting in front of a computer reading like I've never read before, but, for now, I know I'm just not ready. Take care of yourself, Grannie, and just remember that you are highly thought of here on DU. God bless you.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
48. I'm Moving On As Well
I'm sorry to see you go...I've enjoyed your posts and seen you take some nasty shots in recent days. One would hope a board dedicated to people who claim to be enlightened and tolerant can be so viscious and insensitive to others feelings if they try to engage in discussion or debate. I feel hatred here that I used to feel on predominately right wing boards I gave up on prior to joining DU 4 years ago. While I could dismss the wingnuts and felt that churning their ire was a badge of honor...that's not the same here as I know a vast majority have so much in common, yet say one little thing wrong now and someone can't wait to drop the hammer or take a nasty shot without any concern for the feelings or intentions of the poster.

I, also am facing some serious family health and life issues and this place used to be a safe haven, a refuge from my personal issues, but lately it's gotten real ugly and no longer is a Discussion forum.

May peace and health be yours and your family. Here's hoping to catch up with you again soon somewhere in the "internets"

Cheers...
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #48
103. KT - would hate to see you go too.
Hope you reconsider. You are an important rational voice from Illinois - we need you here.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
49. Your posts have brought me so many laughs.
And many times a *smack* of wisdom.

Hoping you will check in to give us a smack or a laugh now & then.

All the best to you, Grannie, and thank you.
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ariellyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
50. God bless you. nt
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Cobalt-60 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
51. good hunting , TG
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
52. Bless you Granny!
Be well and walk in sunshine.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
53. May yours days and nights unfold as you desire them to. Peace.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
54. Wishing you the best, TG. You have consistently been one of
wittiest, most humane posters at DU. We are all diminished by your leaving.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
55. that's the onion, right? or you forgot sarcasm tag, yes?
i'm hoping there is some kind of mix-up here. me missing something, or something. 'cause, otherwise, i can't grasp you posting such a passive-aggressive hit-and-run, then getting such sweet replies. scary what that says to me.

first, the percentages presented there are extremely low, when 1% is stealing the entire planet's wealth, and using the entire rest of us quite mercilessly - including, as you demonstrate, against one another.
but then, that 1% got just the journalists to tell us we **asked for it**. as the article calls it, "blaming others and undermining their self-respect."

THANK those who have the self-respect TO complain!!

all i ever asked for is the right to live life...period (and never even dared hope "to the fullest"). but then, too many simply prefer that Lesbians like me take the shit we're handed and shut the fuck up, or die -
and act on it, with impunity.

ah, jeez, there i go whining and "seeking victim status" again. and, wow, thanks for pulling me down to that, again. why do you all keep making us have to prove to you, then bash us for daring to try to help you see?


hey, bye. i wish you a chance to take personal responsibility.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. It's for real...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2394841,00.html

I wondered about the post, too, or if I was missing something.

I wonder how many who posted the sweet replies actually read what she posted, that says what she wanted to say? A rather nasty post.

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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:41 AM
Original message
How was it nasty?
Isn't this her way of saying 'don't let yourself be a victim?' That's what I read. :shrug:
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
123. No, that is not what the piece is, or what it says n/t
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #58
64. thank you, Sapphire Blue. that helps. i read it over and over and
thought i must be reading it backwards or something. i honestly wondered, just before posting upset, if it could be satire. but i see the article - thank you. and you remind me here that she did, yes, also say the article spoke for her.
it is nasty. so back-handed, the whole post. and then, to run off leaving that behind....

and i think you're right that people didn't read it, or with due attention. because i could not imagine those replies being to what i thought it really says.

thank you for the confirmation and the affirmation.


peace!
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. I think I read this the same way as you, and saw in it the same things. n/t
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. thank you, Mayberry Machiavelli. it's a help in a reality check! eom
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. As did I
See mail, I cannot possibly post in this thread again :)
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #69
72. i had a feeling, when i saw the "deleted." thank you for trying,
Bluebear. i wish i'd been here sooner.

i can not imagine anyone reading that carefully, then defending it - well, not on a site that wants to believe itself inclusive and of consciousness.


peace and solidarity!
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Freeusfromthechurch Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #64
73. I was thinking...a long time freeper with over a thousand post...
pretending to be a granny. Granny if I'm wrong, please accept my apologies. But I'm calling you out. Freeper! Just kidding

But somethings up with her good bye post
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. i say, surely that, or she also didn't read it, but skimmed and...
no. the more i re-read it, the more i see it is obvious...

EXCEPT if one is - as i was, at first - predisposed to think the best of the OP when first reading.

i mean, the article cites "the socially conservative think-tank Civitas"! how did i miss that? i presumed the best, then was too shocked to integrate the rest for several re-reads.
why so shocked? because i'd read so many replies praising her and the article!

agonizing to realize i'm seeing what really is there. is HERE.


:cry:
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #76
79. What CIVITAS says about gay marriage, for instance:
Homosexuals say that any positive human values, such as devotion, intimacy, and even good parenting, capable of being instantiated by heterosexual unions can also be exhibited by homosexual ones. Hence, so they argue, any legal privileges conferred on heterosexual couples who marry and denied to homosexual couples, through being unable to marry, can only be unjust to the latter.

There is, however, one important property heterosexual unions possess that homosexual ones do not and cannot, no matter how monogamous and caring they are. The form of sexual act that consummates heterosexual unions is the unique one through which procreation can and does take place naturally. Each child is born of some woman in consequence of the sperm of some man having fertilised one of her eggs. Typically, these acts of conception result from heterosexual intercourse....

In rejecting gay marriage, therefore, the American electorate need not necessarily be construed as having intended to express any form of moral disapproval of homosexuality. They need merely be construed as having giving expression to their recognition that heterosexuality has a social significance and value that homosexuality can never have.

Those advocating gay marriage do so because they recognise human sexuality can and should be harnessed to work in support of love, rather than just be a source of mere physical titillation. They must also surely admit that only heterosexual activity can naturally of itself issue in the procreation of children....

The American electorate has spoken. In so doing, there is much it has given Europeans to reflect on.

http://www.civitas.org.uk/blog/archives/2004/11/why_the_america.html
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. "heterosexuality has a social significance and value that homosexuality can never have"
Well, that's pretty fucked up.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #80
84. yes, Sapphocrat, it really is very fucked up. i'm still reeling, trying
to grasp how i, at first, and others here didn't see this. and if they did see, then what it says about so many people's views here.

i'm feeling like posting it one line at a time, with the question, "is that really okay with you?"

scary.


peace and solidarity, always!
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #84
90. Some days, everything is crystal clear.
And some days, it doesn't pay to try to understand what moves people to do the things they do. Today has definitely been one of those days.

Maybe it's -- Oops, no, Mercury in retrograde ended a few days ago. :)
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #90
93. ah, yes. it certainly feels like a mercury in retrograde day. then
find out it's not.

you know, it is that so many just lavished praise as if not having read, yet i then find that Bluebear, and maybe others, tried to call attention, before i even got to reading the thread!
so, why no re-evaluating? at all?

is it that lost here? are we that outside, here?
i haven't even yet begun to look at other places here. was it like this other places here, today?

i'll have to look further.


peace and solidarity, always!
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #93
95. Oh, sweetheart, you don't EVEN want to know.
This was one of the weirdest DU days all year.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #95
97. o no. i'm so sorry i wasn't here to give support, Sapphocrat. you
and so many sistahs and bruddahs give so very much, to this community, to progressive consciousness...

to me, personally and socially...

i'm sorry you suffered it. i am always so sorry you, and so many sweet, innocent, generous-hearted people - who JUST WANT TO LOVE WHILE HAVING LIVES!!! - SUFFER ANY OF IT!!!

:cry:

o goddess...
maybe send me about it... ? i ache.....

:hug:


peace!
solidarity, always!
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #80
124. And par for more than a few posts on this subject
The OP comes well heralded.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #79
83. o my. that is a shocker. thank you for finding and posting that, Bb.
that certainly says it all.
did you find it through the OP article or link?

got me steaming, i tell you....


peace and solidarity, always!
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #79
85. so, back to the implication that because SOME heterosexual
coupling CAN result in pregnancy...

yeah, right. lying works for justifying, doesn't it?

it is **all about race privilege and class privilege and male privilege**, period!!

and yet, people praise the OP for posting such bigotry....

are we, of consciousness, in trouble here?


peace and solidarity, always!
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #73
175. Maligning a beloved long-time member earns you the ignore list.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #64
75. Thank YOU, nofurylike. I did the same thing.
Edited on Tue Nov-21-06 03:56 AM by Sapphire Blue
... also read through the sweet replies & even googled the article's title to find out that it was real... felt like I fell down the rabbit hole... until I read your post. Thanks for pulling me out :pals: .

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #75
81. so supportive, you! it really is disconcerting, isn't it? and that is
BECAUSE we really do start out looking to see the BEST. it's almost like a test, to me.

i'm pleased to find i want to see the best, while i'm warned that wanting that comfort can be terribly deceptive - and is, in that case, self-deception. wishing for comfort... enticing "rabbit hole"

ah, how the mind and heart work, ah?
may we all be vigilant in pulling each other out of such rabbit holes.
very kind, thank you Sapphire Blue! :pals:


peace and solidarity, always!
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. The rabbit hole...
Reading the nasty article... it felt like being insulted, then told "no, no, no, don't speak out, don't stand up for your or anyone's rights, just take whatever is heaped upon you." The OP stating that the article said what she wanted to say. Then the sweet replies, one after another... as if some were saying "God bless you for insulting me." That's when I felt like I fell down the rabbit hole... w/the Cheshire Cat giving directions.

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #82
86. well said. yes! it was like that: "God bless you for insulting me"!!
we "fell down the rabbit hole... w/the Cheshire Cat giving directions..."
and
grinning at the cunning, and then POOF! disappearing in a flash! the laughter lingering, at our expense.

it hurts.

the comfort of the rabbit hole...

thank you for getting it. soothing, we share seeing.


peace and solidarity, always!

did you read this, posted by Bluebear, Sapphire Blue?:
http://www.civitas.org.uk/blog/archives/2004/11/why_the_america.html


aaaaaiiieeee...!!!
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #86
88. Yes, I read it. Again, insulting. Wonder if others will take the time to read it?
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #88
92. thank you, SB. i hope they will. i keep hope it has been misunder-
stood, and when understood, will be objected to by more here.


peace and solidarity!
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #82
116. I read that too
And have to say that although the OP was not overt, it doesn't surprise me at all.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #116
125. Nor me
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
56. Come back soon. I'll miss you in R/T and elsewhere.
Go forth in peace.

:hug:
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
57. Take care and we'll miss you!
and Be well!
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
59. Take care TG
:grouphug:
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
60. Best wishes, Tallahassee Grannie.
:hug:
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spuddonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:41 AM
Response to Original message
61. Peace!
May you also be blessed and surrounded by our thoughts of love! You'll be missed... :hug:
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windbreeze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
62. One day at a time TG, one day at a time...
take care...
wb
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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
63. From one grannie to another...
Take care of the things that are demanding your time and attention. I have always looked for your posts, because you have had such a gentle way about you, gentle, but very much common sense, as well. I will pray that your problems will be resolved in the very best way for you. If your circumstances should change, I hope you will consider dropping by, even if it's just to say hello, and let us hear from you. Blessings, dear, gentle spirit.:grouphug: I am confident this comes from all of us.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
65. Bye TallahasseeGrannie!
:hi: Keep up the art! :)


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Hidden Stillness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 02:54 AM
Response to Original message
67. I Suppose There are Lessons Here
"So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter." Ecclesiastes 4:1

I took this posting (the OP) to indicate that maybe now that you are suffering your own crises of whatever sort, that the distinction between an actual oppression and a self-pity, increased by too much thought, has now become clearer, and maybe also that every victim is worthy, even the ones not specially named. When life appears to be taking the most basic things from you, you can more clearly understand that you need to try to live, and not hold on to grudges that are not real, but save the fight for those things that are real. I also enjoyed many of your posts on the Religion forum, and your tolerant attitude, but usually do not read that forum anymore because of all the poisonous atheist hate. When you lose someone or suffer a threat of your own continued routine, it makes you notice and feel on a deeper level, and disregard things that have now become clearer to you, that can be let go. The hard thing is making the distinction correctly, before then.

I hope you will be feeling better, and have success with any other problems, and return here occasionally. May we all be watched over.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #67
96. i stay out of r/t because of comments like "all the poisonous
atheist hate."

it is atheists who have had to share everything with self-righteous sanctimonious people who despise them. not the other way around. keep your ethnocentric bigotry in your own forum, and i'll keep staying out of it.

don't bother replying. i could recite the predictable flames in advance.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #96
104. You know
I don't think anyone has read the article. I know I didn't. I just read the first part and as I will miss her, responded to that. I would be surprised if that is not the general response. Perhaps a young relative has been on her computer and did this for a laugh? :shrug:
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #104
109. thank you for wondering, rosesaylavee. if she hadn't said in
that opening that the article "says what I want to say...." i might speculate similarly, with you. though i would not ever call such an offensive article a laugh, or just shrug at it.

the thing is, she posted it in a discussion forum, versus the lounge where that article might not have been the focus - her goodbye more the focus. or in r/t, where many so harmed by it proceed with more caution, already, or don't go there.

so, i have been discussing her post, despite that she won't. i feel convinced that many would be surprised by the article, if they would focus on it. but then, what would they say to her about it? would they protect us who it harms? i hope so.

i'm sorry to reply and run. i was going offline when i saw your reply. i must go, but will check back for a reply. thank you!


peace!
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #104
128. No, I don't think a young relative did this for a laugh
Edited on Tue Nov-21-06 11:06 AM by LostinVA
This article is odious... and has been heralded by more than a few posts that state the same things. It is either shocking or funny to read these sweet replies and realize that people have no clue how they were just told to STFU and sit down.

edited for typo.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #128
130. You said it better than I did.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #130
136. Thanks -- it is quite interesting, isn't it?
How they've just had someone basically make fools of them, and they are thanking her for it?
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #136
144. Brings bush, rove, their Christian backwash supporters, & David Kuo's book to mind.
Or this...




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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #144
150. Yup -- good analogy
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 03:04 AM
Response to Original message
70. The Best to You, Classie Tallahassee.
Here's a :kick: for you.

Best wishes.
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TheBaldyMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 03:08 AM
Response to Original message
71. I'll miss your good sense, take care and good luck. n/t
Edited on Tue Nov-21-06 03:08 AM by TheBaldyMan
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MoseyWalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
74. I'm pretty close to there to
for various reasons, but chief of which is my tremors are getting way out of control.

and, to think I'm the one taking care of a brain tumor cancer patient.

and, to think, there is, as of yet, almost two months, no help medically or financially for him.

I have benefitted by having to concentrate on someone elses troubles in a direct way. I'm always trying to learn.

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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
77. I wish you well and good health!
Live your life to the fullest!

:hug:
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
78. See you again soon, I hope. nt
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
87. i would like to ask that people here carefully re-read the OP and
this report from the organization the OP article cites:
http://www.civitas.org.uk/blog/archives/2004/11/why_the_america.html

the organization identified in the OP as "the socially conservative think-tank Civitas"

then, those who praised it, please tell me if you might have misunderstood TG's meaning. or do you still praise that OP?

please tell me, can you see any way in which TG might have misunderstood the article, herself?

do you NOT resent such a hit-and-run, and being manipulated into agreement?


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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. Seconding the request!
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #89
94. thank you, Sapphire Blue. i hope... ty. eom
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #87
99. Which posts did praise it?
Apart from possibly those in the now-deleted sub-thread?

If there are any left in the thread that praise the article (and I can't see any), wouldn't it be better to post a reply to them, so they realise you want to talk to them about your objections to it?

What I see in this thread is a lot of messages to TG herself - because she is well known and liked here, and this appears to be the last chance for some time to talk to her.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #99
106. she states the article expresses her sentiments. she can say
goodbye in other forums, but chose this discussion forum, *discussing* that article and its relevance to her feelings.

all praise of and to her, is to the person identifying aspects of herself BY that article.

so, you read the thread, and you'll see who praise the article, and who the one defining herself WITH that article.

maybe you'll care about the deep hurt it caused those who are far more invited here than the bigots of Civitas are?
i hope so.


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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #106
112. Again, I can't see anyone praising the article
Please give the reply numbers where it is praised. Maybe you haven't read many of her posts, but to think that one post defines her is silly. And while I disagree with the article, I'm surprised people find it 'deeply hurtful'. Some of the other things that Civitas have said may be, but TG didn't post them - she posted one article which was reporting on one Civitas publication.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #87
105. Play the ball, not the man.

"Many of the other views promoted by the organisation the article quoted in the OP are mistaken" and "the views expressed in the article quoted by the OP are mistaken" are two unconnected claims, so your link is entirely irrelevant - it's an ad hominem attack, nothing more.

I think that several of the points raised in the OP are specifically valid - I don't think that killing someone because of their sexuality is any more immoral than killing someone at random or for a personal reason, and I do think that Britain has gone far enough in the direction of "protecting victim's rights" to raise serious freedom of speech issues, particularly the "Racial and Religious Hatred Act" which comes worryingly close to criminalising criticism of religions, despite its supporters claims that that's not how it will be used.

Fundamentally, what our current government is doing is a) passing legislation restricting the civil rights of Muslims, so as to appear tough on terrorism, and b) simultaneously passing legislation restricting the civil rights of those critical of Islam, to balance that out to avoid appearing racist. This worries me considerably.

I think the language used by Civitas is silly - lots of people are victimised, and should have legal recourse, and there's nothing immmoral about doing so. What I would say is that if and when someone is victimised, all that should be relevant is what's been done to them personally, not whether or not lots of other people have been victimised for the same reason; the power of groups that could (inaccurately and unfairly, but with a slightly larger grain of truth than I'm happy about) be caricatured as "professional victims" means that this is arguably at risk of ceasing to be the case.

In particular, the growing usage of the word "hate" to dismiss an opinion as "bad, and therefore not a violation of freedom of speech to ban people from expressing" worries me a lot. "Hate speech" is a term that almost invariably marks the user out as a fool.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #105
111. there has been no attack, but by that article. and it is the one
taken exception to, versus the additional one cited in my post.

how hyperbolic of you. speak clearly, please. thank you.


peace
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #105
114. After reading the thread & the OP
It seems like you're getting it right.

Thanks for a breath of reason.

I agree that Civitas has some very strange quotes, esp regarding marriage, but there is more than a grain of truth in what they say about the 'culture of victimhood'.

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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #87
176. We're praising the poster, not the post. On to the ignore list you go.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #176
178. TG said: "I found this post, written by a Brit, but it says what I want to say."
It was a nasty, offensive article representing what the poster wanted to say. She made a fool out of you & seemingly many others.

Please add me to your list.

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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #178
180. Gladly
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #178
181. And me -- because praising the poster is praising the post
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
98. TallahasseeGrannie, i hope you'll read your thread.
did you not carefully read the article you posted?
were you caught by some emotion of it, so missed the point of it?
do you care at all how fiercely hurtful it was to so many of us?

am i giving you too much credit even wondering?

i would like to hear from you what this is all about.

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freeplessinseattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #98
107. same here. it seems a little too.....cryptic
and I've only read one possible interpretation in this thread, which actually only highlights the lack of compassion and irony of the piece.

If everyone else gets it why don't they help out us less linear thinkers?
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #107
110. thank you, freeplessinseattle. you put it so concisely! exactly!
rushing off, for now, but back to check through, later...


peace!
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:20 AM
Response to Original message
101. Sorry to hear that, TG - farewell and good luck!
You're a peacemaker here at DU, especially in the R/T forum, and I have really appreciated that. I hope the health and life issues have a satisfactory conclusion, and perhaps you'll be able to return here. I'd love to talk to you about that article, but I guess you've started your time off from DU already.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
102. Seems like you just got here to me!
You will be missed. I hope the issues you speak of are resolved better than you expect and that you will be back before you know it.

:hug:
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
108. Best wishes for you and your family. nt
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
113. See ya' later TG, take good care.
:hug::hi:
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
115. I rarely ever post "please don't go" posts
but I really have to this time. Your realism and your common sensical approach to all things is a much needed viewpoint. I feel that this site will suffer without your contribution to it, and I hope that you will reconsider. Please don't go, Tallahasseegrannie!
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
117. I'm puzzled
You're leaving us with a Limbaugh-esque quote? Because I clearly remember El Rushbo making the same rant about society having "too many victims." I don't see the connection between that and "live life to the fullest," unless you want us to undulge in some of Rush's excesses. :shrug:
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swimboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
118. I'm an uppity faggot who does not know his place.
I am not seeking victimhood status. It's a funny thing to posit that I am looking for it when the Commonwealth where I was born just voted to amend its Bill of Rights to ensure that I will not enjoy the same rights as my straight brothers and sisters even when a majority eventually comes to believe I should.

I did not have a hand in the development of my victimhood. Lucky me, it was visited upon me uninvited. Contrary to the supposition of the article, I am against my own victimhood and tried to prevent this manifestation of it.

That being said, and I despair of anyone even reading this so far down this thread, a prevailing culture where a motive is recognised in the murder of a potential witness in order to silence that witness endangers that segment of the population comprising potential witnesses. A prevailing culture where a motive is recognised in the murder of a homosexual in order to rid the world of a homosexual endangers that segment of the population comprising homosexuals.

Paradoxically, discrimination takes place only against protected classes in the eyes of the law. Because homosexuality is not a protected class, one can not make the case it should be as officially, there is no discrimination against homosexuals in housing, employment, public accommodation, etc. This is referred to as a catch-22.

That leaves the unvictimised minority to carp and complain about the wonderful advantages that society's victims enjoy. It just gets better and better for us. Let the trumpets sound, release the doves. It's too good to be true, but I'm a victim. HOORAY! I'm a victim!

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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #118
119. Sweetie, those wishing her well didn't read her post.
It's sickening.

Hope you have a wonderful holiday, swimboy!

:hug:
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #119
121. What Midlo said
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #119
127. Your statement is false. nt
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #127
129. Sorry. You're wrong.
The GLBT members of this board are deeply offended by what she posted and she stated right in her OP that it was EXACTLY how she feels.

It's homophobic at best and sickening at worst.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #129
131. No, I'm absolutely correct. Sorry, you've reached a hasty conclusion.
Edited on Tue Nov-21-06 11:01 AM by greyl
edit: To be clear, your false statement is: "those wishing her well didn't read her post."
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #131
133. Whatever, dude.
If you read that and still wish her well after seeing the reaction of the GLBT members of this board, YOU'RE the one with the problem, not me.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #133
140. I don't say you have a problem.
I only say your certainty is undeserved and illogical.

Your interpretation of her post is possibly true, but then again so is mine.
I think my positive way of looking at it(benefit of the doubt) is more likely, and I prefer it on this occasion.

I still see no argument about the science.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #140
141. Can't you see the offense taken by a lot of people on this thread?
Don't you feel the hurt caused by that OP?

I, apparently incorrectly, ASSUMED that those wishing her well only read the first lines of her post about her health because wishing her well and stating you have enjoyed her when her last post is horrifically homophobic is just not progressive. At. all.

It wouldn't be the first time people responded to an OP without reading it in its entirety. I find it hard to believe that some of the progressives responding read it because their other posts don't support it.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #141
158. Of course I can. However,
I'm not impressed by the quality of many of those posts. Astrologers condemning a scientific study? What a shock.

Many of the angry posts in this thread serve to prove that ones identity as a victim can be taken too far, too deeply, and too constantly.

I'm not positive that what I'm reading between the lines of the OP is correct, or that my best guess is accurate as to what TG's actual feelings are.


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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #158
159. I don't really think those offended are concerned as to whether or not
Edited on Tue Nov-21-06 11:47 AM by Midlodemocrat
you are 'impressed' with the quality of their posts. Offense is an emotion, a reaction and in this case, well deserved.

And, this part of her OP says it all.

*I found this post, written by a Brit, but it says what I want to say*

It's homophobic and condemning. If she has health issues, I'm sorry for her, but posting this kind of crap on a progressive board is horseshit.

And, don't bother defending the 'science of victimhood' to me; I'm well versed in all aspects of psychology, seeing that I hold a doctorate in that area. This post has hit the hot button of emotion for people I care about and I think it stinks.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #159
164. Do you believe all emotions deserve unquestioning honor and respect?
I doubt it.
Do you respect Michael Richards' "emotional" tirade?

Since you're well versed in all aspects of psychology, I presume you're aware of Confirmation Bias?

The fact that a statement hits an emotional hot button for some people has zero bearing on its value.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #141
165. "Horrifically homophobic"? It says the sentence for murder should be the same
whether the murder was done for homophobic reasons or for criminal gain. You really find that 'horrific'? It seems a valid viewpoint to me. You can disagree with it, but why it is 'horrific'?
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #140
146. It's easy to give someone the benefit of the doubt
when you're never on the receiving end of the bigotry. Those of us who are being forced into permanent second-class status don't have the freedom to absolve everyone of responsibility for their bigotry. We have no choice but to fight.

Enjoy your cushy, safe, comfortable place in society. It must be nice to be so privilaged.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #146
152. Especially when the person saying it has a history of such statements
libnc says it best down thread.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #146
161. Jumping to unwarranted conclusions never leads to wisdom.
Based on a few of TG's past posts, she was proud to be an Episcopalian because they tend to be so much more respecting of GLBT rights than other Christian denominations.

Was she being dishonest and stealthily ecumenical? (was she a she?) We can't know for sure.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #129
138. Thank you, Midlo -- you're one of the shining lights in my life
And a true Christian.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #129
142. You. Are. Awesome.
:hug:
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swimboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #127
132. Wrong. I happen to know midlo truly hopes my Thanksgiving is great
Why not respond to what I said in my post. I know, I know. It is a lot to read. :eyes:
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #132
134. LOL. Yes I do.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
120. Well, if that's how you REALLY feel, I'm glad you're leaving.
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #120
122. I think this is par for the course for her
Real passive aggressive stuff. She's done this a lot especially in regards to GLBT issues. She offers some kind of thoughtless, semi-homophobic, ham-handed remark and then "apologizes" later on for not being "hip" or "eloquent" enough to say what "she really means"...

She's a grown woman. She knows exactly what she means. Always has.

Same song. Different verse.

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #122
139. Thank you, libnnc -- exactly
I sussed her out along time ago, and quit reading her posts the day she called us criminals... but someone told me about the thread yesterday, and this "fuck you idiots" goodbye post, so I had to read them. How in the world ANYONE the least bit liberal can praise her after reading that RW-soaked tirade is beyond me.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #139
143. There's a simple explanation. They didn't read it.
Or if they did, they didn't understand it.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #143
145. They hear "Granny" and start smelling cookies baking.
I read that Op yesterday and smelled something else, but that's another story.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #143
147. That's the only thing I can think of
A poster upthread stated te hy did read it... but they though it said something totally opposite of the true meaning and intent. I mean, CIVITAS??? I also guess they missed some of the OP's more unsavory posts.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #143
173. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa
Edited on Tue Nov-21-06 12:29 PM by Commie Pinko Dirtbag
I had given it just a cursory reading. Then I read it more thoroughly. Then :puke:

Edit: in my defense I wasn't THAT nice to begin with.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #139
153. Amen n/t
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #120
177. Another one for the ignore list.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #177
183. Don't forget to ignore me too. I agree with the ones you so loudly ignore.
Don't want to be left out.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #177
185. not if i ignore you first
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #185
186. See #184. -nt
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #186
187. done did
;)
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #177
188. LOL. Like your opinion means a damned thing.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
126. re-post of my take
Briefly, I took TG's point to be one about fearlessly rising above, taking ones power back from the oppressors, and living life to its fullest because it really is "so very short."

Last night, I posted excerpts from psychologists and scientific studies which provided 'warning' and insight into victimhood syndrome, and how it can be dehabilitating (opposite of empowering) and create a set of self-imposed, psychologically damaging handicaps on top of very real challenges.

Any conservative bias seen in the commentary on the particular study referred to in TG's article should be balanced by liberal awareness of the science indicating that victimhood comes in degrees; it can be taken too far and used as a crutch where no crutch is necessary.

I'm not aware of any posts in the deleted sub-thread which pointed out weakness in the science of this issue.

Warning & Disclaimer:
This page may be hazardous to your mental health

The ideas expressed in this chapter may be challenging and upsetting as they may defy what the reader and many people may consider politically or morally correct. It will also challenge the psychotherapeutic community who, like attorneys, seem to perpetuate a self-serving focus on victims, trauma and the increasingly popular and, supposedly prevalent, condition of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). Part two of this web page contains a published paper that was rejected more than a dozen times by psychotherapeutic journals before it saw the light of print. The suppression and censorship of any politically incorrect writing that presents a challenge to "don't blame the victim" is probably what fueled some, if not most, of the multiple rejections. This web page in no way intends to minimize the suffering of those who got hurt and injured nor to minimize the moral or legal responsibility of those who inflict harm on others. The page and the accompanied online course intend to introduce critical thinking to the field of psychology that seems to uncritically embrace the whole notion of victimization and post trauma response. The basic premise of this paper is to help readers and psychotherapists think of issues of victims and victimizers in a complex rather than black and white manner. The author believes that uncritically exonerating all victims from any responsibility for their predicament results in further hurt, suffering and victimization.

http://www.drozur.com/victimhood.html



Victim—“I Get to Feel Safe by being Submissive”

* Stuck in a false sense of being unworthy with defenses of feeling sorry for self and passive aggressive behavior.
* Deals with threats by giving in, in order to feel safe and is submissive when others act inappropriately.
* Unable to stand up for self and avoids confrontation.
* Believes his/her needs do not count.
* Can be overly sensitive, wish-washy and unable to make and stick to decisions.
* Doesn’t take responsibility for own feelings.
* Feeds off of the beliefs of Perpetrator and rescuer that he/she cannot take care of self.
* Has shame base for being irresponsible and inept.
* Is anxiety driven and makes excuses for staying stuck in Victim-hood.
* Blames Perpetrator for problems in the family.
* Anger, resentment and retaliation through manipulation and refusal to act as a responsible adult.
* Moves between “Poor me” and anger with blaming others “He/she is bad.”
* Angry when goes along with what the Perpetrator or Rescuer says to do.
* Feels stuck and unfulfilled in life but does not risk moving forward.
* May have had a lenient or overly-protective parent who set up expectations of helplessness.
* May have had a parent who feels anxiety when the child has to suffer natural consequences from mistakes.
http://www.angriesout.com/grown20.htm


The Drama Triangle: The Three Roles of Victimhood

by Lynne Namka, Ed. D.

The three roles of the Drama Triangle are the three main positions that unhappy families play as described by transactional therapist Stephen Karpman in 1968. The three roles -- Perpetrator, Rescuer and Victim -- operate to keep people in the illusion of power. The roles incorporate learned patterns of habit and control mechanisms that bond people together in sick ways. They are symbiotic, destructive behaviors that affect all members of the family.
http://secondwivescafe.com/article.php?id=35
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #126
155. Thanks for the science
Instead of the emotion.

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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #126
170. Good post; everyone should read this one. n/t
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
135. Fare thee well Grannie
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
137. Good luck grannie.
Edited on Tue Nov-21-06 11:10 AM by jpgray
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
148. THIS is what she chooses to end her posting at DU with?
Whatever...

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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #148
151. I guess she decided to spend more time on another forum
if you catch my drift.


:eyes:
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #148
157. I posted the very same thing yesterday
and caught such flack about ruining a grandmother's "sendoff" that I asked the mods to delete the subthread. I saw all the syrupy goodbyes and thought "OK, maybe I am reading something wrong here". I'm glad more posts like yours are showing up!
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
149. well we victims are kinda glad to see you go.
go away now. far away.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
154. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #154
156. Ha! I literally just thought this about five minutes ago
Not that the outing was all that surprsing...
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #156
160. Not a surprise at all
and the subtlety was lost on many.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #160
162. I know...
To me, she was as obvious as a train running full steam...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #162
168. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #168
171. Never liked any of her posts.
Just tried to ignore her.

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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
163. All you people complaining about this miss the most important part of this post.
Edited on Tue Nov-21-06 12:01 PM by LoZoccolo
However, the report gives warning that seeking victim status can harm the victims, denying them personal responsibility by always blaming others and undermining their self-respect.

I believe that, and I believe a lot of people here stay in their victim status by not getting involved and instead sitting around complaining about how their leaders won't do what they want, or aren't saying what they want them to say, or arguing about how someone attacked their leader, or how someone else here doesn't agree with them about who should be everyone's leader. It's pathetic. I call people all the time to get involved and make real change, starting with being compelling to people around you who you know personally, and with your local Democratic organizations, and get attacked for trying to make people more effective because it involves criticizing people for where they are now. It's severe victim mentality to attack people for trying to make you less of a victim!

So no, I generally don't think people take responsibility for how they're victimized here. It's like, OK, things suck...but what are you doing about it?

And you know what else? I wouldn't be surprised to see the people who are deepest into complaining and not doing to get angriest about this being pointed out to them! It's a vicious cycle.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
166. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #166
167. Oh boy -- post of the day
Said with zero snark~!
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #166
179. ...
:rofl:

best response evah!!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
169. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
174. Do visit when you can, please
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
182. damn my ignore List!!
i've been missing out on this most awesome thread.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #182
184. Remember the Old Wisdom of the Ancient
Gandalf says: you can't alert on ignored posts.

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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
189. locking....
If you think that a member
is a disruptor, please use the alert feature
so that the moderators can take care of the
situation.

Thanks.


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