my co-workers are moms and dads who shop and watch tv

[LSK]

Some of them have their children go to private schools. They go to tons of parties and have doings for their children. They spoil their children with iPods and computers and tons of gifts.

They watch Desperate Housewives and Lost and American Idol.

They shop online during their lunch hour and breaks and have new shoes and other things sent to the office from their online shopping. They go out to eat everyday at Olive Garden or some other fine restaraunt.

They drive SUVs and minivans which are rarely older than 5 years old. They have nice houses with some bordering on McMansions.

They have cute little ringtone songs on their cell phones.

Last Friday, they were talking about the TomKat wedding. Today they were talking about OJ.

They never talk about Iraq.

They barely know who their Senators are.

I seriously doubt they voted in November. If you say you volunteered on a campaign, they look at you funny.

THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO CHARLES RANGEL IS TRYING TO WAKE UP. GET THE THOUGHT OF THEIR KIDS GOING TO SOME FAR-OFF WAR WHERE THEY MIGHT DIE, AND THEY JUST MIGHT, JUST MAYBE WILL PAY LESS ATTENTION TO OJ AND MORE ATTENTION TO OLBERMANN. They might even actually start reading a newspaper instead of People magazine.

[MrCoffee]

1. Hell Yes.

:applause:

[Mythsaje]

2. Hell, just grab little Timmy, Jason, or Heather,

stick a gun to their heads, and you'll have the parent's attention.

Oh, wait. That's pretty much what he's doing, isn't it?

The difference? People here are CHEERING it.

[MrCoffee]

4. It's EXACTLY what he's doing, and he's right to do so.

[lumberjack_jeff]

6. Amen. n/t

[LSK]

11. do you know any of the people I speak of?

:shrug:

[Mythsaje]

14. Not any more...

Not in person, anyway. On-line--well, that's a different story. I've done my best to educate some people as to the realities of the situation.

[stillcool]

16. and why wouldn't they?

if 6 years of this shit has not made a dent in the consciousness of those with the most to lose (their children), why wouldn't one cheer for the one trying to get the message out that the sky truly is falling for hundreds of thousands of people.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. I'd rather they watch tomkat than blame us

If Democrats say that Republicans will draft their kids, it's an allegation.

If Republicans say that Democrats will draft their kids, it's current events.

This is not acceptable.

[Virginia Dare]

7. The Republicans brought this war about...

it can't be continued without further sacrifice from the American people, so we are at a crossroads. Is this war worth further sacrifice?

[Vincardog]

39. Is this war worth further sacrifice? Uhm NO! The fiasco in Iraq

is not worth one more human life. AS for the OP Correct. We should have some form of universal service. Let every US citizen who reaches the age of 18 be required to serve the community is some fashion for 2 years. The service should be Military or community service.

This is UNIVERSAL EVERY BODY to be included NO EXCEPTIONS.

[LSK]

12. the people I speak of are lucky if they know whos proposing what

They hardly know that was just an election.

[elehhhhna]

30. LOL. It's funny because it's TRUE, They're everywhere 'round here

and the only other way to get their attention is to scream "BIG SALE ON DESIGNER CHILDRENS ITEMS!"

They're also still PO'd that Clinton got all that press 8 years ago for oral sex. Next thing ya know their husbands were hinting at them about it and hoooo-DOGGIES! They're NEVER going to forgive BC for THAT. EVER.

[Virginia Dare]

5. It's the equivalent of a 2x4 over the head...

whether it works or not, remains to be seen.

[lumberjack_jeff]

8. I don't know about you, but I tend to get pissed off at the person who wields it.

2 x 4's are good attention getters, but they only bring attention to two things;
1) the pain
2) the wielder

For a bunch of politically-aware folks, I'm surprised this is so mysterious.

[Virginia Dare]

26. What do Democrats have to gain by...

telling people what they want to hear as opposed to what they need to hear? Do we want to be the Party of manipulators and liars, because I think the GOP already has that all sewn up.

I'm not telling you you're wrong, all I'm saying is that there are some necessary and uncomfortable truths that need to be fully outed and openly discussed in this country, and not just the occupation of Iraq. Global warming. Massive debt. You get the picture.

[lumberjack_jeff]

31. Good point. Let's use this tactic for the other issues too.

Let's use our new-found power to deny water to people in the desert southwest. After a few of their kids die of thirst, they'll thank us for raising consciousness on the topic of global warming. I'm sure they'll throw flowers for having the courage to bring it to their attention via the ceremonial 2 x 4 of condescension.

To answer your question, "What do we have to gain?" the answer is; public office.

[Virginia Dare]

33. No, but we probably need to stop using fuel like..

there's no tomorrow, and that won't be a popular idea at all.

Republicans already lost office for getting us into an unpopular and unjust war through lies and manipulation. The Democrats are trying to figure out a workable way to get us out while minimizing further loss of life. They need to do it in an honest and open way. That is how they will stay in power.

[lumberjack_jeff]

36. People recognize the need to use less fuel.

They're understanding of the need to cultivate alternative fuels and energy sources. They're okay with biodiesel subsidies. They're okay with improving fleet fuel economy. They'll be less understanding of government arbitrarily punishing them for the stated purpose of raising their consciousness.

[Virginia Dare]

37. So was the government arbitrarily punishing American citizens...

for the draft during World War II? :shrug: Sorry if I'm missing your point.

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. Speaking of missing the point...

are you suggesting that this situation is analagous to WWII?

I once suggested that the WWII draft was unnecessary to my dad. "The hell it wasn't! I sure the hell wouldn't have volunteered to get my ass shot off!". His hesitance was well founded. He lived for the next 50 years with a steel plate in his head.

The WWII draft was necessary. That's the only factor that matters, and the primary difference today.

[Virginia Dare]

40. Well, the 'pubs certainly have...

didn't they tell us that 9/11 was our generation's Pearl Harbor?

Didn't they compare Saddam to Hitler?

Haven't they pounded it into our heads over and over that we are fighting a long and protracted global war on terrorism?

See where the hypocrisy lies?

[EstimatedProphet]

68. You just described the reason so many people hate the Democrats

To answer your question, "What do we have to gain?" the answer is; public office.

Is that all? Is that the only thing that should motivate us?

How many times have we heard in the last several years about how us Democrats only do things if the polls say we should? 100? 1000? Probably more.

Th majority of Americans still believe on some level that the Democratic party is spineless, and that we are only concerned about doing things to get us into public office and hold onto public office. They believe this even though they voted for us - November 7 wasn't a mandate for us, it was a mandate against the Repubs. Rangel's stance on the draft is the perfect opportunity, if played right, to start a serious discussion and at the same time smack the Republicritics around a little bit if they keep saying we have no spine. I believe we can have this debate and beat the hell out of our critics too - but only if we stand up tall, and quit worrying about whether the bad old Republicans will talk about us. If we do that, we may lose some people that don't want to hear what we have to say, but we'll win back a whole lot more people that have come to believe that the Democratic party only stands for what will win an election.

[mondo joe]

70. That's one reason. I think the rest of the thread is another reason.

There's this bogus puritanical shit going about people buying iPods or having cute ringtones - as if that tells you ANYTHING about a person's politics or knowledge.

A number of Americans perceive Democrats as being judgmental asshole killjoys - and a number of DUers are trying to prove them right. Unfortunately.

[EstimatedProphet]

80. That too

[Union Thug]

9. Good luck with that. These are the Stepford consumers that american

marketers have been perfecting for 40 years. Unless you can one-up the neighbor with the message, or polish it like a shiny ornament, Rangel is wasting his breath.

[Greyhound]

59. I think Brother Bill gave us the solution years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo

Keep fighting. :kick:

[Union Thug]

93. OMG! Great link!!! I've never seen that one before! n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. And they're still not going to give a shit.

Unless, perhaps, it passes and there really is a draft.

In which case Rangel would have really screwed the pooch.

[Warpy]

13. Forget it, if they're not awake now, they're totally narcotized

I think there's a solid core of 30% of voters who are corrupt, greedy, delusional, stupid, or intentionally ignorant. The latter are the people who find it terribly distressful when folks around them talk politics. They claim they're BORED, but the truth is that they're upset about the whole situation and don't want to think about it and where's that old copy of People, they want to look at the fashion pictures again.

Your coworkers remind me of that TV commercial where the guy brags about his McMansion, his yacht, his kids' schools, and all his other crap while riding his lawn mower and ends with, "How did I do it? I'm up to my eyeballs in debt! Please help me!"

Thinking about politics may cause a little glimmer of stark terror about the precarious nature of their own situations.

That's my guess. I know too many people just like that.

[LSK]

15. true, these people live in a bubble

One that Rangel is trying to burst.

[twilight_sailing]

19. "How did I do it? I'm up to my eyeballs in debt! Please help me!"

Well done, Warpy. :)

[Syncronaut Seven]

29. Fear

"Thinking about politics may cause a little glimmer of stark terror about the precarious nature of their own situations."

That's very profound. It's not a guess, it's a highly accurate asessment.

I always knew you got it. :hi:

[elehhhhna]

67. And with that phrase, Warpy's validated Rangel's Rope-a-dope,

perfectly and succinctly.

Not intentionally, perhaps, but very well done, regardless!

[Beelzebud]

17. People that asleep wake up and hear this: "Democrats want to bring back the draft."

I'd say the American people woke up when they elected Democrats to the majority.

How many are now second guessing their votes?

[LSK]

18. no, they only hear 2 words: "Draft" and "Iraq"

These people dont pay attention to whos doing what.

People here really need to step out of the box and realize that there are people this clueless.

[BlueEyedSon]

84. Exactly, they don't know who Rangel is (namely a Dem)

[endarkenment]

86. Did you watch the Monday morning news shows?

I'm thinking you didn't because you so consistently don't get it. The sound bite, the lead, on the story was 'Democrats propose bringing back the draft' or something similar. All across america the suburban stupor was interrupted by the news that the Democratic Party wants to kill our children. Knowing who Rangel is was not a prerequisite. Sure if you listened to the full story or actually read a newspaper you might learn that ONE Democratic house member was proposing this idiocy, and you might learn that even he wasn't going to vote for it, and you might be able to figure out what that bit of nonsense meant, but for most of America the details, the nuance, were lost. What they got was the sound bite: "Democrats want to bring back the draft".

[BlueEyedSon]

88. The Democrats are going to have to RAISE TAXES too.

They have no choice, it's the only way to save this sinking ship.... bought-and-paid-for, deficits-don't-matter Republicans aren't going to do it.

What do you think the sound bites are going to be then? Gee that will be bad press ("Democrats want to raise taxes!") for the Democrats!

At some point the media will have to start telling the real stories, in all their nuanced detail, and the public is going to have to wise up and "get it". You can include Peak oil & global warming as other things that are going to have distasteful (at the very least negatively-spinnable) remedies.

I think its a valuable public service that someone remind the collective consciousness of this country that war = draft/sacrifice. I would be happier if it was a Republican doing the reminding, but someone needs to do it.

We are way too cavalier since the last message was war = go shopping.

PS. Re Monday AM news shows: no, I'm at work then. I read the NY Times on the train and watch Countdown as often as I can though...

[endarkenment]

95. Yes they are.

So are you now arguing that we are going to have to have a draft? Some Rangel supporters, as you appear to have done right here, are arguing on both sides of the draft issue, it is both a clever rhetorical ploy (we don't support a draft) and a necessary policy (we do support a draft.) You really have to decide where you stand on the draft.

How things read in the NYT is one thing, and the NYT readership is generally well informed and able to understand Rangel's stupid stunt in all of its nuanced idiocy. However that subset of the population is vanishingly small. Most people get their news, if they get news at all, from tv, from the sound bites they hear as they wake up blaring from the morning news programs. They heard what amounted to 'Democrats want to kill your children', which is why a lot of us here think Rangel is a well intentioned idiot.

[BlueEyedSon]

96. No, I am arguing that Merkins need to be reminded that to have a war

you need a draft, there ain't no free lunch.

Go read this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2782430&mesg_id=2782430

PS you need to decide where you stand on taxes.

[EstimatedProphet]

73. We need to change that message

Instead it should be "Democrats are being forced to bring back the draft, to fix the mess that Bush made."

If this debate goes on, we need to pound that point home. We are in a fix because of Bush. We have been given the people's trust, not the Republicans, because of the mess they made, Now we have to clean up, and this is one way to do it.

I'm not for the draft at all. I'm for opening up the debate.

[cwydro]

20. kick/ nt

[m_welby]

21. The moms and dads? they're not who need to pay attention, its the kids!

just like Vietnam. Its the kids who might have to go fight that need to get off they're lazy asses, out from in front of the video console, out from the line for the new nintendo, take the ipod off they're head and pay attention to what is happening to they're country's future !!

They aren't going to do that unless they're invested in it. They don't care, they don't vote either.

I have 2 sons who would be eligible. Both of them vote, and stay informed. Most kids today don't care.

[KoKo]

22. You Nailed It! Yet I head on Ed Schultz today that Pelosi and others backed

off today on Rangel's proposal. I wish they had gone with it for another month to get the Faux News and others talking about it. It needed a run...

Something needs to wake the folks you are talking about up. I live amongst them myself. :-( Talk about feeling alone...that's why I check out DU alot...need folks who think like me.

[xultar]

23. YES YES YES!!! The war isn't touching them so they don't care about deaths!!!

Thank you for posting this!!!

[WI_DEM]

24. Sounds like my co-workers too, very typical

[hlthe2b]

25. Very good point..... eom

[Joanne98]

27. The SHALLOW American! They will never wake up......

[Saphire]

28. we must work at the same place.

[Subdivisions]

32. THANK YOU!

[greenbriar]

34. yes

"There's no question in my mind that this president and this administration would never have invaded Iraq, especially on the flimsy evidence that was presented to the Congress, if indeed we had a draft, and members of Congress and the administration thought that their kids from their communities would be placed in harm's way," Rangel said.

[meisje]

35. They helped vote out a repub congress, good enough for me.

BTW

My 3 year old goes to a private school
I spoil him, so what
I just bought him a computer
I love Desperate Housewives
I know my U.P.S. and FedEx driver on a first name basis
The Olive Garden is crap
We own a SUV
We have the house
My wifes ring tone is the Handy Manny theme
...etc

[No Exit]

56. Heyyyy! What's that 3-year-old doing in school??

Don't you know a 3-year-old is supposed to have a nanny or an au pair? They're not supposed to have to share their "teacher" with a bunch of... other kids!

BTW, "those people" did NOT vote out the repuke congress--not around here, they didn't! They ARE republicans.

I know you're not one of them--if you don't like republicans, you're OK with me!:)

[Guaranteed]

41. Right the fuck on. nt

[midnight]

42. I know what you mean. When the Valerie Plame article came

out in Vanity Fair. The article in their states via Joe Wilson that his wife was outed. A co-worker who received her news via Rush said that she was not a secret agent. I told her that the court date would be coming and it would prove that that she was-I'm holding my breath on this one. These people that I work with have basically been comfortable their whole lives.

[LSK]

46. the proof is that the CIA reported the crime to the Justice Dept

Why would they do that if she was not undercover?

[CrispyQ]

43. A co-worker tried to convince me that Tom Delay didn't break any laws.

All the while he called him Bill Maloney. :rofl:

Honestly, I'm supposed to believe he understands the intricacies of the Delay case when he doesn't even know the guy's name?

[Skittles]

44. I despise people like that

and I am surrounded by them :(

[spillthebeans]

45. At least they are enjoying the last hours on the Hindenburg/Titanic,

while we are watching how the deck chairs are rearranged

[renate]

61. welcome to DU!

:hi:

[spillthebeans]

77. ;-) thx.

[Strelnikov_]

71. For Myself, I'm Keeping An Eye On How She's Settling While Building My Lifeboat

Even if we Hindenberg out, there will still be a few relatively 'safe' places.

[spillthebeans]

76. Looking at your FEMA picture reminded me somehow

of it's predecessor and the "Duck and Cover" videos.

Here a remix of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybSRzb-QeEM


I find it fascinating that the Gov. has always found a way to keep sheeple in fear,
be it with a color coded thread chart or with educational videos.

[Freeusfromthechurch]

47. Living the illusion.

[petron]

48. Olive Garden is hardly "a fine restaurant"...

...unless of course you love your pasta and sauce from a plastic baggie.

But then again, boil-in-a-bag is top notch fare for some. LOL.

[fudge stripe cookays]

74. It's a joke 'round these parts.

Go to the Search function, and check the Lounge. You'll see that people are being gently teased by mentioning it. Or not so gently.....

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

49. Sorry to date myself here by using this expression LSK, but

right on!!!!

I am also surrounded by "dolts" who don't give a flying fiddler's feck about what is happening not only in Iraq but turn a blind eye to the mess this country has gotten itself into for the past 6 years.

As long as they're not inconvenienced in any way, they just don't give a shit...

I completely understand what Charlie Rangel is trying to do and I applaud him for it.

[mondo joe]

50. What silly, shallow stereotyping. I watch lost, my daughter goes to a private

school, we have iPods. I do a lot of fine dining and wouldn't eat at a crapfest like Olve Garden if you paid me.

I'm also politically aware, politically active and politically opinionated.

And I have a damn cute ringtone.

[No Exit]

53. BUT... are you adding on to your house, and do you have a housekeeper from Kenya?

And don't tell me something like, "We added on to our house LAST year!" Don'tcha know, you have to be adding on to your house, or renovating, or installing SOMETHING elaborate (must involve construction workers being there long enough to require a portable toilet to be brought to property) at ALL times!

And that private school better not be a CATHOLIC school! That doesn't count!

:)

[mondo joe]

55. Well let's see - we do want to talk to someone about doing remodeling.

But the private school isn't Catholic - it's a girl's school focused on math and science.

I'm just bad.

(I go to movies too!)

[No Exit]

58. Thank goodness! There are still some real Amur'cans out there!

Hey, the Holiday Season is here... on your mark, get set, go! Let's get out there and spend spend spend spend spend!:)

(Hmph... don't think I didn't notice that that girls' school sounds suspiciously like one of those schools where you get in on GRADES and PERFORMANCE instead of for just having a lot of money... watch it!)

[mondo joe]

60. Hell, I love Christmas and Hannukah shopping. I also feel good

about supporting my local economy.

I guess it would be more virtuous of me to not spend money and let the people whose pay depends on shopping and dining learn to get by with less.

[No Exit]

94. Naw, don't do that... letting them "get by with less" would mean

YOU'D have to get by with less, too--and we can't have that!

When you reach Maximum Acquisition, and The Economy is roaring and everyone else is also reaching Maximum Acquisition, wake me up when "The Happiness" carries everyone off to Heaven.

[No Exit]

51. LOL. I'm surrounded by similar people.

And you're right: they would look at you funny if you said you'd volunteered in a political campaign.

If anyone EVER wants to have a serious discussion in the presence of these people, they will listen for about 30 seconds, then will turn away with a polite smile, saying something like, "Oh, well, life is too short for unpleasantness." This goes no matter whether you want to discuss the war, discuss some rogue politician, discuss a local crime problem, or, really, talk about anything meaningful. These people never use profanity--surely that is laudable, except for the fact that the REASON they never use it is mostly because they never feel extremely strongly about ANY issue. Hence, in a conversation with one of these people, one is treated to expressions such as, "Oh my goodness", "My word!", and "Thanks to goodness". Okay, I know lots of people disapprove of profanity, but to me, a few occasional words of honest profanity are preferable to this constant milque-toast wussified way of speaking. JMO.

These airheads can be seen constantly, driving their shiny (mostly plastic) SUV's, babbling away on a cellphone as they drive. You just know that they are blabbering to some friend about how they're "adding on to their house" or "putting a butcher block table in the pantry" or some renovation of some sort... blah blah blah.

These people are fanatical in their dedication to exercise--that's a good thing, but if you were to point out to them that they could get just as much exercise if they just did their own housework instead of hiring some foreign-born person to do it, they look at you like you're crazy. (After all, having black or foreign-born persons to clean one's house is, like, hey, a status symbol!)

These people want the best for their children--that's a good thing, sure. But to them, what is absolutely THE most important thing that they want for their children is that they want their children to be POPULAR. This means that they will sometimes turn a blind eye if their beloved children drink--as long as the "in" group drinks. Or it means that they will spend a lot of money getting a fashionable vehicle for their child the minute the child turns driving age. Their children could NEVER be seen in an unfashionable vehicle! Wanting their children to be popular ranks higher in their vapid minds than wanting their children to be scholarly, or well-educated, or honest, or moral.

Okay, I'll stop now... my nausea level is almost as high as it gets when I watch Fucker Carlson!

[SaveOurDemocracy]

63. LMAO ... but soooooooooo TRUE!!

I know those people too!!

[DeeDeeNY]

52. Wow. Your coworkers sound just like my neighbors

Out where I live in suburbia, most people do not seem to spend much time worrying about anything going on in Washington.
My son's friends do not care what is going on in Iraq because they don't think it affects them.
They would care plenty and their parents would make it their business to be involved if there was the threat of a draft.
It's unfortunate that the ones who have depleted our military because of their negligence, greed and incompetence have never addressed the realistic decisions that will need to be to made.
A draft is not the answer, but I can understand where Rangel is coming from.
He most likely set the upper age to 42 to make sure that his proposal had no chance of passing but that it would at least bring some attention to the problem and open up a dialogue.

[raccoon]

54. K&R. nt

[Irishonly]

57. My biggest frustration is not what Rangal said

but how it's being covered. To listen to some of the MSM you would think Rangal and the democrats are waiting outside your door to grab your child and send then to Iraq right now. The democrats are being undermined by the press again.

Everyone knows people like the ones described. The number of people that think Rush and Billo know what they are talking about is staggering. The mindset of the "I listen to talk radio, therefore, I am informed" crowd scares me. People like this don't read and if they do it's MSM again. Have you any idea of how many people think C-Span covers books? Many of these same people believe Faux News is fair and balanced.

I hope their children wake up and see the world isn't like their parents make believe one. My daughter has been raised to see the world quite differently and she went to private schools until I became disabled. She has done volunteer work every summer since she was 12. When Munich was released she wanted to see it. Many of her friends didn't have a clue and also looked at her funny when she talked about "An Inconvenient Truth". Many of her friends can't be bothered and complain they have to do volunteer work for their senior project. My daughter attends one of the high schools listed in the top two per cent in the country.

People like the ones described here make my teeth hurt because I am sure every time they open their mouths my teeth clinch. I don't understand them and they sure don't have a clue what makes me tick. I looked at one friend and asked her about OJ. She didn't know what to say when I told her I thought it was a no brainer. Hades would freeze over before I bought the book or watched the interview. She isn't aware of Rangal's proposal either. I guess she sees the world as what effects her and her life while I see the world as global and how I can change it for the better.:rant:

[lumberjack_jeff]

62. My frustration is that people here appear surprised by the reaction.

If you say that their kids should be drafted, it's not a manipulation of the facts to report what you say at face value.

Rangel, and 41% of DU'ers want a return to the military draft. Most outrageously, they're proposing this for reasons other than military necessity.

[yy4me]

64. Boy, you hit this right on the button. We had a conversation

like this last night as we talked about Charlie Rangel and his proposal.

[MUSTANG_2004]

65. "They never talk about Iraq"

They might be smarter than you think. Talking about politics at work is usually a bad idea. Workplaces can be contentious enough without bringing religion or politics into things.

Also, I don't get your rant about ipods and computers. What is so bad about getting computers for your kids? We bought our children computers and I think it was money well spent. I find it to be an educational tool, much like the encyclopedias that our parents bought us.

[mondo joe]

66. You're not getting it because this is a rant about class disguised as

a political criticism.

[Nikki Stone1]

69. "Olive Garden or some other fine restaraunt." ?????

You did mean to put the :sarcasm: thingy there, right?

Olive Garden is a piece of crap! It's faux "Italian" (in the way that FAUX News is, well, faux.)

Better off going to Denny's.

[KoKo]

79. Believe it or not in some parts of the country it's considered "fine dining out"

to the McMansion crowd. My dentist took his wife out to Applebee's for her birthday for Meatloaf. He said they like plain food and Applebee's was a treat for them. He lives in a Golf Community in a very fine house and is a golfer at the club which costs 30 thousand to be a member. :eyes:

He's not alone....where I live, either. Olive Garden, Applebee's, Dennys and the franchises.

[Nikki Stone1]

81. I'd rather eat a hole in the wall mom&pop Italian restaurant with REAL food than Olive Garden

Olive Garden is absolute crap. What a shame it is considered fine dining. I guess money and taste don't always go hand in hand.

[BigMcLargehuge]

72. I think you are underestimating them

I have plenty of friends, coworkers, and family that appear completely politically ambivalent. They span the economic strata too from barely making ends meet to new cars and new houses and month long vacations in warm weather climates. And when we get together to talk it's about TV or current events in popular culture, sometimes it's about books or movies, or Family Guy.

They have cute (i.e. obnoxious) ring tones and seem excessive in their kid spoilage.

But they all voted, and when pushed they will begrudgingly talk politics. The thing is, it's not a social/workplace topic in many cases. Tom and Kat's wedding won't cause watercooler controversy, neither with American Idol, but discuss Iraq or Iran or a potential draft, and things can get uncomfortable.

They aren't dumb, or disconnected, or uninformed in most cases, they just choose when and where to express their political leanings, and that's in the voting booth not the office cubical.

Just my two cents.

[NotGivingUp]

75. You are sooo right. They need a fricking big wake up call!

[Javaman]

78. Yet, just think about how in debt they are and how they have

no savings to speak of.

They can blather on and on about nothing that matters and choose to live through their children, but when those same children grow up to a world that is a colossal polluted oven where no animals, plants and clean water can be found, then all the bullshit that these mouthbreaters thought important will comeback to haunt them or kill them, which ever comes first.

ain't life grand?

[NotGivingUp]

82. many people have been brainwashed to think it's a no-no to

talk about religion or politics or anything else important. other people have been brainwashed to think you should only say positive things, and that if you say anything negative, well then, you are just a complainer and you should learn to be optimistic. i'm telling you, there's a bunch of stepford people out there. it's creepy.

[Beam Me Up]

83. Demographics?

It would really help if I had some idea which part of the country you are in, whether you are living/working in an urban, suburban, rural part of the country and what kind of business you work for. Where I work, San Francisco Bay Area, generally the same class level as you describe, ages range from 20s to 50s, relatively small business with marrieds w/ kids that drive Volvos -- and I can tell you NO ONE I know is oblivious to what is going on, NO ONE supports this war, NO ONE wants compulsory military service. So far as I can tell, they all voted Democratic and most are quite appalled with a) impeachment being "off the table" and b) Rangel proposing military conscription. These folks ARE awake (some more than others, of course) ARE aware of the problems and want to see them addressed. What they don't want is half-assed measures and/or "Republicn Lite" from Democrats.

[LSK]

85. Suburban Chicago

I work in an office that combines IT workers and accounting workers.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

87. a question about the draft

OK, so if they draft the girls too, and you can only get out if you have a serious medical condition, what qualifies?

Lots of allergies? Sneezing from dust, cats, dogs, wool, whatever?

What if you're a girl, and you are in bed suffering from cramps about four days a month, multiplied by 13 times a year? And none of these so called treatments they have work?

I know they wouldn't take you in the Army if you had hay fever some 25 years ago.

[spillthebeans]

90. Is this answering your question?

I'm not sure if they care, if they need to draft because they want to start WW3 it certainly won't be an allergy.

In a startling revelation, the former commander of Abu Ghraib prison testified that Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, former senior US military commander in Iraq, gave orders to cover up the cause of death for some female American soldiers serving in Iraq.

Last week, Col. Janis Karpinski told a panel of judges at the Commission of Inquiry for Crimes against Humanity Committed by the Bush Administration in New York that several women had died of dehydration because they refused to drink liquids late in the day. They were afraid of being assaulted or even raped by male soldiers if they had to use the women's latrine after dark.

The latrine for female soldiers at Camp Victory wasn't located near their barracks, so they had to go outside if they needed to use the bathroom. "There were no lights near any of their facilities, so women were doubly easy targets in the dark of the night," Karpinski told retired US Army Col. David Hackworth in a September 2004 interview. It was there that male soldiers assaulted and raped women soldiers. So the women took matters into their own hands. They didn't drink in the late afternoon so they wouldn't have to urinate at night. They didn't get raped. But some died of dehydration in the desert heat, Karpinski said.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/013006J.shtml

[Manifestor_of_Light]

97. No it doesn't.

I read that article about women getting raped and suffering from excessive dehydration.

Still doesn't cover 52 days a year of being incapacitated in bed. And even if you take max amounts of Motrin, you still feel like a wet dishrag.

[ecstatic]

89. Sometimes I wonder if its too late for us

It just seems like people in other countries are much more politically aware about the goings on of their own nation and other nations. Here, people barely keep track of what's going on in the US, much less some "foreign" country. How do you reverse decades of ignorance and nonchalance? Our best bet would be to get Hollywood producers on board and start forcing movies of a political nature onto the big screen.

[Snot Hannity]

91. But it is impossible

to educate some people.

I have a male coworker who is Republican. When the office secretary was collecting personal care items, cookies, etc. to send to the troops in Iraq, he donated a bunch of little containers of shampoos, conditioners and lotions. Those that he collected from the hotels he was staying at while traveling on business. I thought "How generous!"... donating free stuff. He showed off to me that he had donated personal care items for the troops and said something that takes the cake. "Gotta send them some stuff, so they can keep our gas prices down".

He certainly knows what is going on. But he cannot be educated any further unless he has a heart. All those over 3000 soldiers and half a million Iraqis had to die and thousands of others had to get mutilated so he can pay a lower gas price at the pump and drive his fancy BMW.

Oh, did I mention that he is a log cabin republican? If at all a draft is instituted he might claim exemption based on his log cabin status. I don't know for sure if gays are allowed in the military when a draft is imposed.

[mike_c]

92. the herd....

[gollygee]

98. Why do you assume they don't vote?

My daughter goes to an expensive private preschool. I drive a new minivan. I have a cute little ringtone. Etc.

*SIGH*