A report says 75% of those enlisted in 2005 were white and middle class!

[napi21]

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT! Do you? There was a discussion on Lou Dobbs about Rangel's comments on a draft. The military says it doesn't need or want one. Charlie also said the all volunteer military affects minorities & poor the most. Then the reporter read a repor (sorry I don't recall what agency wrote it) that said that in 2005, 75% of those who enlisted were white & middle class!

[NMDemDist2]

1. to bad Lou didn't make him define "middle class" n/t

[napi21]

2. It was a reporter just reading a repost. I suspect all he could have

said was I don't know how this group defined it!

[Kellyiswise]

30. Well the term "middle class" has to be defined. It can't just mean anyone whose

family income in NOT $500,000 or more.

[Selatius]

3. If I define anything above individual poverty line as "middle class," then...

would I come out with that 75% figure?

[napi21]

4. Maybe. I still think most people enlist to get the $$ to go to school later.

At least that's what every young person I've sppoken to has said. Either that, or the recruiter promised them some special school, like nursing. I shudder when I hear someone say that for a reason. My son was in the Navy for 15 years, and he will sure confirm that a recruiter will proise you ANYTHING to be able to make his quota for the month. It sure is a promise that's not always kept!

[Guaranteed]

7. Exactly. And throw in the 1 or 2% upper class to arrive at 75%.

Give those upper class people their "due credit." :eyes:

[Guaranteed]

5. Probably 73% middle class, meaning they make more than $17K/yr.

It's just manipulation of statistics.

[jaysunb]

6. Another "report " says

Santa Claus is coming to town ......

[conscious evolution]

8. I can

Way to many white middle class guys are either totally brainwashed or they have lost jobs to outsourcing and can't find other work.

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. I believe it. Here's why.

We've had several discussions on this topic here. Middle class is NOT 90,000 and up. The middle class (for the purposes of this discussion = let's call it middle three quintiles of income) is $17,984 to $86,867.

Also, rural kids are the ones most likely to enlist.

The wealthy have resources that the poor and middle class lack.

Like most americans, we have a distorted view of what is - statistically - middle class.

[napi21]

12. Here's at least ONE example of"middle class" income range.

When asking Americans how they would describe their families' wealth and social status, most will answer with the non-descriptive label of "middle class." But what exactly does this mean? While there is no clear definition of who belongs in this group, there are a few guidelines for a rough sketch of an American middle class household.

First, on the basis of annual household after-tax income, most studies agree that the "middle class" is grouped around the national average, in the range of $21,300 to $63,300 (in 1996 dollars). The lower and upper ends of this range represent the 20th and 90th percentile of the population, accounting for 70 percent of U.S. households. This definition includes all sources of income, from wages to Social Security to food stamps.

http://cber.cba.ua.edu/rbriefs/middle2.html

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. 20th to the 90th? Maybe I missed that definition of "middle". n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

10. I believe it

1. As a college teacher I see white, middle class kids going all the time. The financial inducements to service are much, much sweeter if you actually go to college.

2. The War on Minority Youth, I mean Drugs, ensures that large numbers of minorities have criminal records which would prevent them from serving even if they want to. I've known a few who wanted to go but can't because of weapons or drug charges.

[KSU Wildcat]

11. My grandson is white

and middle class and he enlisted in the Army this summer. His dad, my son in law, just retired and had spent 6 months last year in Iraq. He says there are some dangerous places in Iraq but there are also some dangerous places here in the U.S.. They live just east of St. Louis and I know there are some very dangerous places around there.

My grandson just graduated from high school and did not know what he wanted to do. He decided that after spending 4 years in the military he will have a better idea what he wants to do when he gets out. He also got a $13,000 signing bonus.

I am not too keen on the idea but he is 19 years old, bright and capable to make his own decisions. I am sure he will be spending some time over there and all I can do is hope for the best.

[Kilroy003]

16. Your Grandson sounds like a very noble young man.

I wish him, and you, the best...

[berni_mccoy]

13. BULLSHIT! That report is taking the MEAN INCOME OF THE ENLISTEE'S ZIPCODE!

Not THEIR FAMILIES INCOME:

Here is that report: http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/em987.cfm

TOTAL BULLSHIT REPORT. You can't measure the INCOME of my household by THE AVERAGE INCOME OF THE ZIPCODE I LIVE IN!

[TahitiNut]

24. "Mean" and "Average" are HUGELY different, especially when it comes to income.

[berni_mccoy]

25. You mean Median and Average (=Mean)

And besides, they are taking the AVERAGE INCOME OF THE NEIGHBORHOODS, not the enlistee's family income. If they did that, the VAST MAJORITY would be considered to be IN POVERTY.

[TahitiNut]

26. (OOPS!) (Finger/Brain Disconnect) Yes! MEDIAN. (sigh)

Gads!! If I do that again, they'll repossess my Math degree. :dunce:

[Gormy Cuss]

27. I wish they had posted a methodology report.

In addition to the apparent problem of assigning ZCTA (median income for zip) there's no discussion of whether the difference is more acute in some branches like the Army, nor whether the underrepresentation of urban youth (high density, small area ZIPs) was used in a weighted adjusted of the mean.

Zip code mean as a proxy for income -- what a crock. I haven't found hh income averages in any of the published armed forces demographics reports so no public data to refute this. I'm thinking the Heritage Foundation author used the best back of the envelope estimate he could find to support his assertion.

[ConsAreLiars]

32. Excellent! That neocon "methodology" is worse than deceptive.

I is downright evil to imply that since people live in geographic areas the people who get "economically drafted" have the same income level as the average household in that area.

I could have done the same study using the US as a whole, instead of zipcodes, and argued that since the US average income is X, the enlistees must be of that same average income. Would have been a lot cheaper, and equally valid.

(edit typo)

[BlooInBloo]

14. It's the Heritage Foundation, here's a link for anyone interested...

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda05-08.cfm

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2768456&mesg_id=2768587

Have fun - there's lotsa fun stuff in there!

[Cleita]

19. The parent foundation of the PNAC. They have been so factual

and unbiased in the past. :sarcasm:

[hootinholler]

29. I thought the PNAC was birthed from the AEI?

Not the equally retarded (re-tarted?) Heritage Foundation.

-Hoot

[Cleita]

34. You are right but so am I. They are all interchangeable it seems

because the people involved seem to show up in all three institutes. I did get thrown off because Bill Maher mentioned them together in one of his New Rules bit where he said they couldn't call themselves think tanks if everything they think of is stupid. Oops I should have looked them up before posting, however, if I did look everything up that I'm going on memory, I would never post.

Here's a link that shows how interchangeable they are and google has pages connecting all three.

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1034

[AZBlue]

15. I'd like to see their definition of "middle class."

eom

[moondust]

18. "mIddle class areas" was the report I heard.

Which does not necessarily mean very much.

[AZBlue]

33. That could just be geography.

Meaning something like they lived in the same zip code as someone in the middle class. That means nothing, you're right.

[Subdivisions]

20. How can that be...isn't the Middle Class extinct?

[ecstatic]

21. enlist or sign up as officers? nt

[Cleita]

22. There are a lot of lower middle class and poor white kids

who enlist. We have seen them on TV, like Jessica Lynch and Lyndie England. But because their family owns a double-wide, a few acres to put it on, and have jobs doesn't make them middle-class.

When I lived in the inland northwest, which is really white in population, I never saw so many food stamps in the market line ahead of me as there. Yet, most were employed, but the work was either poorly paid or seasonal. It's the only way these marginal families can make out.

I would say it makes them poor with no money left over for college and jobs being scarce, the military probably looks attractive to these kids.

[BamaGirl]

23. We've been in the Army or Guard for 14 years. Enlisted/NCO no less

Almost everyone we know comes from poor or lower middle class backgrounds. Most of the people we've known over the years have gone in the Army to escape that. The ones who aren't poor/lm class come from military backgrounds like my husband and I. If you're defining middle class as anything over say 25k, then yeah I can see it. If you then factor in the military kids (and what my husband makes as an e6 is much higher than the national avg income), I can definitely see it. As for racial make-up, we would say the Army is about 70% white. Last I heard that was about the national average. Yes, some mos's are more minority than others. Some are more white than others. That's an asvab issue more than an enlistment issue. But in general in the Army, my gut instinct is a 70/30 racial break down and probably a similiar division in income background.

[Kellyiswise]

31. This report is designed to make upper-middle class and feel good

about themselves and not enlisting.

[Kelly Rupert]

28. I'd believe white and lower middle class easily.

That describes every soldier I know.