No seat belts on school buses. Why?

[trof]

We had a very tragic school bus accident in north Alabama today.
Deaths and severe injuries.

Besides the fact that "we" WON'T SPEND THE MONEY, why do we not require seat belts/shoulder harnesses on our kid's school buses?

Most states require kid's seats in cars, seat belts for all passengers, bike and motorcycle helmets, all kinds of stuff to save life and limb.

Why have school buses gotten a pass?

[Mythsaje]

1. I think ALL buses get a pass, actually.

I've never seen them on city buses either.

Fact is, I'm not sure, given the physics involved, they'd do a lot of good anyway. You'd pretty much have to duct tape the passengers in place to protect them from injury in case of a serious accident.

I've wondered this myself at times, and that's the only explanation I can come up with. There has to be a reason buses in general are excluded from these requirements.

[pnwmom]

41. This is what the State Dept. of Transportation told me:

The "egg carton design" with the padded seat back is supposed to protect the kids.

So I asked how wide a standard seat is. The answer: 39 inches wide.

The problem: How many kids fit in a 39 inch seat? When they determine official capacity, they assume three kids will occupy most seats . How many kids (past the age of 7 or so) are only 13 inches wide?

I pointed out to them that my second grade boy was already 14 inches across the shoulders (I measured him), and their answer was that the bigger kids should sit two to a seat. As if kids sorted themselves out by size!

This explained why my middle school aged daughter was always complaining that there was no room for her to sit. There wasn't. All the third kids were hanging out into the aisle.

[SeaBob]

2. seat belts

There are no seat belts in school buses across the US because the manufacturers dont have to provide them. Which is, in my mind a crime

[trof]

3. Bingo.

[mcar]

4. The new model buses in our district do have seat belts.

It'll take a decade or more to get to the point where all our buses have belts.

Probably doesn't matter much - many of the buses ride 3 kids to a seat anyway because of overcrowding. They have to use fewer buses because they can't hire enough bus drivers. It has to rank as one of the most difficult, underpaid jobs with a tremendous amount of responsibility.

[KSU Wildcat]

18. It sounds to me like they

need to raise the pay for school bus drivers. If they raise the pay high enough there would be more people that would be willing to accept the responsibility.

I am retired and I thought that I might like to drive a school bus to supplement my social security until I found out what they expect and want to pay.

[Blue_Tires]

42. welcome to the site!!

[MidwestTransplant]

20. Maybe outsource to India?

;)

[pnwmom]

25. Three to a seat is the problem.

The seats are only 39 inches wide -- which allows 13 inches per child. How many middle school students are that tiny? How many beyond first or second grade are that tiny?

But three to a seat is not considered overcrowding, at least in my state. When determining bus "capacity" they EXPECT a certain number of seats to hold three students, and a certain number to hold two. Even though, realistically, except among the very youngest, almost no children can safely fit three to a seat.

[uppityperson]

5. I heard it is because the seats are well enough padded

and the buses go slow enough so if they hit something the kids will be slowly shoved into the puffy seats in front of them I guess. Actually I did seriously hear this from our school district administrator.

[trof]

9. That's exactly what the local school board member said tonight.

I call BULLSHIT!
It's the damn MONEY$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[uppityperson]

10. puffy seats my butt

I've been on enough school buses in recent yrs helping chaperone kids, those seats are not puffy enough to stop serious harm if traveling over 10 mph. Money.

[TheCowsCameHome]

16. Nonsense. How about up on the interstate on field trips?

What a crock...........

[pnwmom]

26. It's more of a crock than you think.

When they determine bus "capacity," they're assuming a certain number of students to sit three to a seat. Guess how wide a standard seat is? Only 39 inches. How many kids, beyond the age of 6 or 7, are only 13 inches wide? What happens is that the third kid ends up half sitting in the aisle. So much for the padded seatbacks protecting the kids.

[Zynx]

19. Yeah, that really helps when you go airborne at 60 MPH...

Idiotic statement. Administrator needs to sit in on a physics class.

[pnwmom]

24. That's what they say. But here's what they don't mention, unless you ask.

Those standard seats are only 39 inches wide. And in calculating bus capacity, they expect many of those seats to hold THREE students -- which leaves only 13 inches of space per student.

What proportion of middle school students would fit in 13 inches of space? What happens is that the third kid is hanging out into the aisle, where there is no padded seat in front to protect anyone. That's why my daughter was always complaining about not having enough room to sit. She was right. She didn't.

And that doesn't even count the huge backpacks they're all carrying . . . .

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Demeter]

7. Because Some Little Bastard Will Try To Strangle or Hang a Kid With Them

I still have mental scars from riding the bus.....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. The argument is...

The kids are crammed in like sardines and there's very little space between them and the row of seats in front of them.

It makes some sense, but I don't know if it holds up to the facts.

[pnwmom]

28. It doesn't hold up to the facts, and here's why.

Those kids are crammed in, but that doesn't make them safer. The standard seat is only 39 inches across. How many kids (past the age of first or second grade) are less than 13 inches wide? And where are the huge backpacks supposed to fit?

When children are injured in bus accidents, they always blame the kids for not sitting "properly." How can they? When children are forced to sit three to a seat, the third kid is always hanging out into the aisle.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

32. Alright...

Now how many injuries would be prevented every year by having seatbelts, as compared to injuries caused by kids hitting and strangling each other with the seatbelt?

[pnwmom]

34. I'm willing to accept the egg carton design theory as long as

they only put students two to a seat.

Otherwise, the egg carton design is worthless, at least to the poor kid on the aisle.

But, as I said, this would require most districts to buy more busses.

[elocs]

11. Time for a reality check before a knee jerk reaction. Here:

http://www.safety-council.org/info/traffic/schbusbelt.htm

"A 1999 study by the US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) suggests that adding seat belts to school buses will cause additional head injuries and probably additional deaths in some crashes. It says school buses built since 1977 rely for safety not on seat-belts but on the close spacing of seats with padded seat backs, called compartmentalization. Seat-belts, by holding a child's pelvis firmly in place, allowed the torso to crack like a whip, with the head striking a seat back or a hard object with greater force than if the whole body has been thrown. The NTSB found the evidence ambiguous enough to avoid recommending seat belts, but was also not persuaded to endorse taking them out.

Some US states require seat-belts on school buses. However, none of them, fortunately, has experienced a crash that would demonstrate any benefits of adding seat-belts to school buses. There is still no scientific evidence that lives would be saved.

Perspectives on the Issue

Seat-belts were designed for cars, and have saved thousands of lives. School buses are designed with safety (but not seat-belts) in mind; they are not built like cars. Buses are much larger, higher and heavier than other vehicles on the road, so they have a body-on-frame design. For seat-belts to enhance rider safety, the bus body would have to be completely re-engineered with seat-belts integrated at the design stage.

Beyond the engineering problems someone would need to ensure the seat-belts are used, adjusted properly between uses by small and larger children, and repaired when damaged. In an emergency, seat-belts could hinder evacuation. Young children should not be placed in a situation where they must become responsible for their own safety."

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

A child is much safer in a school bus than in a car. There is no perfect way to prevent death or injury in any situation with a motor vehicle. It is not about money. Compare school bus safety with that of a mini van with seat belts and shoulder restraints. I have seen a video of a school bus crash test with the dummies wearing seat belts and the results are not pretty as their heads were smashed on the seat in front of them.

[Strelnikov_]

27. But Reality Is Just Such A Buzz Kill n/t

[pnwmom]

29. It definitely is about money. The problem is they'd need more busses.

Bus "capacity" is defined by formulas that figure on a certain number of students fitting three to a seat. The problem is the seats are only 39 inches wide. Past the age of 6 or 7, how many children are less than 13 inches wide? What happens as children get older, and larger, is that the third child inevitably ends up perched on the edge of the seat, hanging out into the aisle -- where all the padding in the world isn't going to keep them safe.

[elocs]

45. That's not the "it's about money" that people are referring to here.

What people mean is that the money will not be spent on seat belts. As far as buying more busses goes, you can't get more local than that because that is the responsibility of each of the thousands of local school districts in this country. Let's face it, when it comes to caring for children in this country we talk out of both sides of our mouths. If we really cared for children, who we claim are our most valued "possessions", then the childcare workers to whom we entrust our children would be very well paid instead of underpaid. Teachers would be better paid. Students would not be forced to attend classes in their hallways or in trailers or in schools which are falling apart. And money would be spent for more and better school busses and their drivers would be better paid also.

[pnwmom]

47. It comes down to money or way or another, or so the Dept. of

Transportation told me. Seat belts cost money and so do more busses.

You're right, though. Everything ALWAYS comes down to money and whether we really value what we say we value.

[Mythsaje]

44. It's about physics...

That's what I thought.

[Sir Jeffrey]

12. A few reasons...

1. Buses are constructed to sit higher than the normal point of impact on other vehicles. If a bus plows into a truck, for example, the bumper for the bus sits higher than the bumper on the truck...as such the truck gets it worse.

2. Bullies would use the belts as weapons. If you fling a belt with a metal buckle at someone, it would injure the sh-t out of them.

3. Children are notoriously dumb at times and would probably not put the belts on properly anyway.

4. Liability issues play a role too. Who has the responsibility to ensure that they put them on right? Who has the responsibility to make sure they wear them at all times? What happens if the kid gets injured because they were wearing the belt and they couldn't crawl out the window? What if someone cut the belts off?

Not saying these are good reasons, but I have argued this before with people and these are the arguments they typically give. Having been bullied on my bus, I wouldn't want to give them a metal-tipped whip to punish my ass for something.

Cost really has nothing to do with it.

[Little Wing]

22. Those windows are too small for anyone but toddlers to crawl through

They're terrible designs.

The 'using the buckle as a weapon' argument is a load of bull.

The problem is these things are pieces of junk.

[pnwmom]

30. Cost has a great deal to do with it, according to my State Dept. of Trans.

They would have to buy more busses.

The real problem is that they define bus "capacity" based on a certain number of seats being occupied by three students. They would have to buy more busses if the limit was two students per seat. But guess what? The standard seat is only 39 inches wide. How many students past the age of 6 or 7 are only 13 inches wide? As students get older and larger, the third kid gets relegated farther and farther onto the edge of the seat, until they can barely hang on.

That's the real problem. All the padding in the world isn't going to help the kids who are stuck dangling in the aisle.

[Blue_Tires]

43. great points

i was in elementary school in the early 80s and i remember the call back then for seat belts on buses....the reasons you listed (especially 2 and 3) were among those that caused the proposal to die

[LeftCoast]

13. Because liability insurance is cheaper than seat belts

Sad, but true.

[TheCowsCameHome]

14. Because of difficulty/time evacuating a bus in an emergency

like a fire or flood situation.

Trying to undo 50 kids is no small task.

[txindy]

31. Realistically, how often does that happen?

I've never heard of it happening around here during the school year, but I usually hear multiple news reports of kids injured on school buses annually due to (usually) minor traffic accidents. Besides, I doubt there are many school-aged kids who don't know how to undo a seat belt if the need arose.

Now, having said that, I did know someone whose children went to school on buses with seat belts. Most of the kids didn't wear them, though. They used the buckles to 'whip' each other with them, instead. :eyes: IIRC, that novelty wore off soon enough, but they still didn't fasten the seatbelts. :shrug:

[TheCowsCameHome]

36. I believe the NTSB takes this position. (Not 100% sure)

that evacuating is the reason for not requiring them.

[txindy]

38. Yes, that would be their position. How would they officially refer to a lack of seat belts?

"Evacuation security?" :eyes: So, buckling a seatbelt would lead to "evacuation insecurity."

[sarge43]

51. It doesn't

I drove for ten years and never had to evac, but that first time can literally kill ya.

Another factor that's seldom considered, there's absolutely no guarantee the driver won't be hurt or even killed in an accident, so the kids would be on their own. I used to talk one or two of the older more sensible kids thru basic drill - turn off the engine, flashers, radio, get the younger ones off the bus and the road, etc.

No, many of them would not keep the belts on. Rule #1 of school bus driving: If they can screw around, they will. On the large buses there's approximately forty feet between the driver and the back of the bus. In fact without doing a 180 there's no way the driver can check if the kids right behind him would have them on. And navigating a 9% downgrade curving lumber road during the beginning of an ice storm or boxed by three 18 wheelers on the freeway, frankly I wasn't paying that much attention to the kids.

[Anakin Skywalker]

15. Because Kids Don't Like Seatbelts and Will Not Use Them?

[Odin2005]

17. Possibly because bullies can use them to strangle other kids

[sarge43]

21. Money is one problem, but there are others

I drove a school bus for ten years for a rural elementary school. On that bus I had kids who had just turned 5 years old (a couple less than 3 feet tall) to ones 13 or 14, some of them built along the lines of refrigerators. A full shoulder harness is the only safe method for the youngest and that would be difficult to arrange in a bus. The youngest ones would need help getting into the belts and don't say the older kids could help because (1) liability and even without the liability claus (2) there may be no older kids on board at the time. If the driver leaves the seat for any reason, s/he park the bus at least half way off the road to allow for passage of emergency vehicles (not always possible on rural secondary roads), throw on the warning flashers, turn off the engine.
My normal passenger load was 55 kids and I'd say at least a third of them wouldn't have been able to manage locking a seat belt.

Many of the older kids I can promise you would not keep the belts on and there's no practical way to ensure that they do.

Further, there's bus evacuation. Right now fed law requires a school bus be evac'd in 30 seconds. Again with younger kids, no way.

Just some things that come to mind.

And statically speaking, kids are safer on a school bus than in a passenger car.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

33. Many years ago a school bus that had found a "new life" as transportation

as a church bus went up in flames after an accident.

The church bus, full of 70 kids and sponsors were returning home late on Saturday night after a fun-filled day at King's Island near Cincinnati. A guy who had way too much to drink, left a bar, was disoriented, got on I-71 heading north in the southbound lane. There was a head on collision and moments later the bus burst into flames. That night, May 14, 1988, 27 (24 children, 3 adults) people died fiery, horrible deaths. Not a single death occurred due to the crash itself. Many of the survivors were left with life altering, disfiguring burn and emotional scars.

The only thing good that came out of that bus crash was an in-depth investigation into school bus safety. I remember being surprised that the panel did not recommend seat belts for the riders but the investigation did lead to improvements to the construction of the "cage" and bracing around the gas tank. One of the cage braces has punctured the gas tank that night and caused the explosion. Because of that accident more emergency exit doors were added to buses, changes in the gas tank design, and flashing lights on the top of buses, to name a few.

That bus was from my county here in Kentucky. My kids had friends that died and were injured on that bus that night. I remember in vivid detail the unending horrors, sadness, and grieving in the following days, weeks, months and years trying to figure out exactly what had happened.

The drunk driver was not hurt but was found guilty and spent several years in jail for his crimes. If I remember correctly he got out of prison 2-3 years ago.

My kids rode buses just like the one in that accident that night and I was demanding seat belts until I read that report. You would have to convince me that they actually help keep 60 kindergarten and first graders safe and they could be gotten out in a hurry should it burst into flames.

[pnwmom]

35. They say that most injuries occur because kids aren't sitting "properly."

I'm willing to accept that seat belts might not be the solution. The real problem is they expect kids to be able to fit three to a seat -- and the seats are only 39 inches wide, which allows for 13 inches to a student. How many kids (past the age of second grade or so) can fit in such a tiny space? So, inevitably, the 3rd kids are dangling on the edge of the seats, hanging out into the aisle. They're not sitting "properly" because they've been crammed three to a seat.

[TheCowsCameHome]

37. The school busses in my are are like rolling zoos.

Unreal. The kids are all over the place, hanging out windows, bouncing around, you name it.

Absolutely crazy.

[sarge43]

50. I'm surprised anyone will drive under those conditions

because it's usually not the drivers. It's the principal won't back the drivers and give the kiddies a Come to Jesus talk and if that doesn't work, boot 'em off the bus for awhile.

[TheCowsCameHome]

52. I wouldn't last for five minutes driving a school bus

[pnwmom]

23. Here's the real reason, folks. They'd have to buy a lot more busses.

It's not just the money to put seat belts in the busses they have. It's because they would have to buy more busses.

I called the State of Washington transportation department after I couldn't get answers from my local district. I wanted to know why kids didn't wear seat belts. Also, my middle school aged daughter was complaining about having to sit on the edge of the seat (hanging out into the aisle), because there wasn't enough room for her to sit with two other students.

They claim that busses are safe without seatbelts because they are built like egg cartons -- the seat in front protects the students. But in calculating bus capacity, they're pretending that three children, even middle school and high school students, can fit together in a standard 39 inch wide seat. I measured my children. My 6th grade daughter's shoulders were 17 inches in width, and she weighed about 120 pounds. Three girls her size would have needed a 51 inch wide seat.

The District's argument was that their calculations called for a certain number of seats to hold three students, with the rest to hold two. Therefore, my daughter, and other larger students, should sit in a seat with only one other child. I pointed out that students don't sort themselves out by size before sitting down. Also, that fitting three to a seat gives only 13 inches to each student. How many middle school students fit that description? (My second grader son was already bigger than that.)

So when you hear that kids involved in a bus accident were injured because they weren't sitting "properly" in their seats, keep this in mind. None of those third kids stuck on the edge of the seat have any choice except to hang out into the aisle. And they're not being protected at all by the egg carton design when they're hanging out in the aisle.

[Xithras]

46. That's exactly it.

A couple of years ago this subject came up in our local school district following a bus accident that injured a few children. Here's how they laid it out: The law limits the physical size of the bus, so buses cannot get any larger. To install seat belts, the seating area per student would have to be increased, which would reduce the number of students on each bus since the buses themselves cannot be enlarged. This, in turn, increases the number of buses that each district has to own, increases the maintenance costs proportionately, and increases the number of bus drivers they have to keep on payroll.

Busing is often viewed as a money losing venture by school districts anyway simply because it's a large expense that removes money from the classroom and returns no educational value. Very, very few school districts would be able to absorb a busing cost increase of 30%-50%, so most would scale it back to only their most distant students or eliminate it entirely. Schools in this country are already eliminating bus service or outsourcing it to cut costs, and requiring that districts replace their buses and expand their fleets would push the majority remaining over the edge. My mother-in-law is a substitute teacher in a large rural district that recently considered offering bus service to students who live over 10 MILES from the school. They ended up abandoning that idea, and instead simply reduced the number of buses available and increased the number of runs each bus makes. There are kids who get on the bus at 5:30AM every morning in her district who don't actually walk into a classroom until 8:15. After school, some kids have to wait up to two hours for their bus to arrive...yard duty teachers are cheaper to hire than bus mechanics apparently. Make busing more expensive, and this sort of thing becomes more common.

[pnwmom]

48. Wow. n/t

[sarge43]

49. That's exactly right.

The owner of the company I drove for said that it would cost a minimum of $5,000 per bus to install belts and because of seating problem he would have to double his fleet of 15 at over $50,000 a pop.

If I saw any of my gang hanging out in the aisle because of no room, I'd make him move.

The other thing to consider is this: These accidents are horrible, but how many times do they happen? In the next few hours, there will be hundreds of thousands of school buses on the road and all of them will get the kids to school safely and this afternoon back home safely. There'll be a fender bender or two, but the kids will be safe.

[brer cat]

39. A lot of what's on this thread is news to me.

I think much of the issue is what the school system (including parents)and the community at-large is willing to demand and spend for safety. I live in a small rural mountain county in NO GA, and a sheriff or city police car travels with most, possibly all, of our buses. Those who stop on our main highway have a police car moving ahead to make a road block across the highway before children are let off the bus. Even on side streets with little traffic, the police car is there to make sure traffic is stopped. I have NO doubt that the presence of that officer makes a big difference in the behavior of the children, and the willingness of people to drive the buses. And the presence of the official cars probably make other drivers more cautious of speed limits and safety.

My 6-year-old grand is now riding a bus to school in a different county. There is no over crowding, and seating is strictly by age groups...the young children are right behind the driver and progressing to the back of the bus for older. That may (I said MAY) put the more likely trouble makers on the back of the bus, but at least the really young ones are close at hand to the driver.

We get what we legislate for and are willing to pay for.

[porphyrian]

40. No one wants to pay for education.

They don't care about kids. If they did, there would be money in education. Until a bunch of rich white kids die in a school bus because of no seatbelts, nothing will be done.

[SmokingJacket]

53. Putting that money towards extra safety training for drivers would

save more lives, I'll betcha.