In case there was any doubt

[Mythsaje]

Wow. This whole draft debate has touched off a few firestorms. I don't mind, really. My handle was bare inches from being "Stormsaje." I think debate is healthy. And while some of the debate here today has made me want to tear my hair out, it hasn't genuinely angered me. More like exasperation.

That I can handle. I'm not taking it personally, so I don't have to retreat. (I don't engage in debates when I get too emotionally involved--prevents me from saying things I REALLY don't want to say).

Here it is in a nutshell.

I oppose the draft. Period. No exceptions. I think forced service is anethema to a free, open, democratic society. I don't CARE what your rationale is. Anything can be rationalized.

Make NO mistake. What we're talking about here is taking kids who are presently minding their own business (whatever it might be), dragging them through training, slapping a gun in their hand, and sending them off to kill MORE people in order to support Bushco's present War of imperialistic aggression.

The argument is that it will "level the playing field" and make EVERYONE responsible for the war. If you think that the elites won't come up with new and inventive ways to prevent their children from fighting, you're dreaming. The power and influence they have NOW is worlds away from the power and influence they had forty years ago. You have NO idea. Some of them have more money than you can even IMAGINE.

No, what it will mean is that we'll be acting in COLLUSION with their future plans to invade other countries. It won't PREVENT wars. It'll make them easier to justify.

How so? Well, we certainly won't suffer from a lack of volunteers to fight in stupid fucking wars. Need more meat for the grinder? Well, hell. Just draft some more boys. It's as easy as pushing a button. Need a reason? Bomb something of OURS. "Oh my God. They just blew up our embassy in <insert city here>."

Protests? Look like volunteers to me. Grab 'em up, say they're "aiding the enemy" and ship them off to the front lines or Gitmo. What are they going to do about it?

God, some people are suckers.

The FIRST thing people need to do when something is suggested is look at both the positive AND the negative. What's the WORSE thing that could be done with this, if someone had the chance? Never, ever assume that it's all for the good. It NEVER works out that way. Not when you're talking about the realities of power.

How people who talk about how 9/11 may have been orchestrated, and that the Diebold machines are stealing our votes, can possibly think that handing them future generations of OUR CHILDREN could ever be a good thing.

Two weeks into winning the last election and we're thinking "hell, we got everything under control."

The fuck we do.

C'mon, people. Use your heads. Trust NOTHING.

All information, regardless of source, is suspect.

[Lautremont]

1. I agree with you.

I have yet to see one of these pro-draft posts, but I will also admit that I haven't been looking for them.

[Redstone]

2. I agree. What, we're not a militaristic enough country? Let's get all the kids trained

so we can save some time getting them ready to invade the NEXT country that didn't do a fucking thing to us.

A draft. Fuck me, are people still that stupid in this country? I guess they are.

Redstone

[LeftCoast]

3. It's hard to be apathetic about a war you can be drafted into

I'm just saying...

[Mythsaje]

4. Oh, I get the rationale...

I just think the "cure" might well be worse than the "disease."

[pnwmom]

20. The Republicans just lost Congress, did you notice?

And what was the biggest issue? Iraq.

Americans are no longer apathetic, they want OUT. The last thing they want to hear is talk of a draft.

[ClassWarrior]

5. "Forced service is anethema to a free, open, democratic society."

Yes it is. I'll bet some of our neediest Americans understand that in ways that you and I can't even begin to imagine. And I believe this is why Rangel has opened this debate.

Thanks for your comments, though. Even though I don't totally agree with you, I know we both agree that we need to end this war and make future ones more difficult to wage.

NGU.

[bryant69]

6. Disagreement on one point

"The argument is that it will "level the playing field" and make EVERYONE responsible for the war. If you think that the elites won't come up with new and inventive ways to prevent their children from fighting, you're dreaming. The power and influence they have NOW is worlds away from the power and influence they had forty years ago. You have NO idea. Some of them have more money than you can even IMAGINE."

I see what you are saying, but this mentality that we can't actually get the elites to pay their fair share of societal costs because they are too good at weaseling out may well be true, but it is corrosive as well. I mean the same argument applies to taxes too doesn't it? Haven't the wealthy and corporations gotten pretty good at weaseling out of taxes too - but i don't think the solution is to through up our hands and say "That's the way those guys roll."

I am torn on this - because I think we should have a national discussion on the morality of expecting those of us who are the poorest and who get the least from society to go off and die to protect that society. And this is a way to start that discussion. On the other hand, if it were an actual possibility that we were going to reinstate the draft, I'd be very opposed to it, for many of the reasons you noted above. So I support Mr. Rangel so long as their no hope of him succeeding? That seems like a bad policy.

Bryant
check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ClassWarrior]

8. You make a good point...

...about the corrosiveness of the "they're gonna get away with it anyway" meme. And I see it not so much as supporting Mr. Rangel so long as their no hope of him succeeding. I see it as I don't support Mr. Rangel's proposal, but I welcome the debate it brings.

NGU.

[Mythsaje]

12. If the central argument

is that it will force the elites to put their own children at risk (and that IS a central part of the argument) the fact that this is very unlikely to happen, and therefore something of a misdirection on the part of those who are saying it, is most definitely also an important part of the debate. "Corrosive" or not.

If it ain't true, don't say it. And most definitely don't use it to make a point.

[ClassWarrior]

23. Why is it unlikely to happen? Any specific reasons why you think so?...

Do you really believe that Rangel is proposing something that he knows will fail in that regard? That he really isn't earnestly trying to succeed in making everyone responsible for service?

NGU.

[Mythsaje]

24. Do I believe HE'S sincere about it?

Oh, he might be. But the reality of the situation is that Congress is a place where compromise is king. He may WANT to close all the loopholes, but, should it succeed, the PTBs will make damn sure that the children of the influential have some sort of out. Even if that out is simply higher starting ranks (officers vs. enlisted personnel) it still puts most of the burden on the very same people who are shouldering it now. It's a feel good maneuver that doesn't address the problem.

And even if this didn't happen (which I can't imagine, frankly), I can think of any number of ways for them to finagle the system to "overlook" the children of the influential.

As they say, the road to hell is paved with...well, you know.

[ClassWarrior]

25. I guess I trust the long arc of history a little more than you do.

(It bends toward justice, you know.)

And ability to get out of it or not, it'll be a pain in the ass for the elites to deal with if it passes. So whatever position they take, they'll paint themselves into a corner: they'll have to either appear weak on defense, or give lip service to sending their own children into a war zone.

NGU.

[Mythsaje]

26. Maybe...

I'd like to see the debate on more positive things than how do we get the elite to send their kids off to die too, myself. Believe it or not, I don't want Richie Rich dying in a war either. And I'm not sure the people behind this really give a damn about anyone but themselves, I'm not sure that including him would stop them anyway.

I'd rather have a national debate about the value of war, and how we can give all our children access to the best education and the best healthcare and move America forward to become a beacon of hope for the world again.

[Mythsaje]

9. I don't think it's a particularly effective argument...

Saying that they'll be "forced" to participate.

No, they won't. It will simply never happen and I think it's naive to SWEAR it will.

I spent all day yesterday attending to this debate. This particular line of thinking is CENTRAL to their whole reason to re-institute the draft, which is why I think it needs to be addressed directly.

I'm just not buying the argument.

[benddem]

7. until you've lived out of the US in different places

you do not know what a great gift it is to live here. I find it unconscionable that some people enjoy all the fruits and pay nothing back. It doesn't have to be military service, could be peace corp, cleaning up New Orleans, teaching in an inner city school etc. What we have no is a mercenary army and no one who has no dog in this hunt gives a damn. How many people would have been so supportive of the war in 2003 if they thought there 12 year old child would be there? Guys that went to Vietnam in 1972 were 12 in 1965.
I can understand that none of you want to sacrifice your children in this misbegotten debacle, and I seriously doubt that Rangel is serious. Remember he voted against this after proposing it last session.
We need to have this conversation. Is this really the way we want to go, with a bunch of neocons with pipe dreams get to send a bunch of poor kids to die in some horrific place.
Sorry but you do owe this country something.*

[Mythsaje]

10. No one?

Am I mistaken when I say that the majority of Americans not only oppose the war, but voted to kick the party that dreamed it up OUT of Congress?

If you want people to serve the community, offer enticements to do so. Free up educational funding. Give homeless kids a place to live and a way to earn a solid place in society and the job skills to succeed.

Invest in the future of America, and do it with a carrot, not a stick. Put money and effort into building opportunities for people who currently have very few.

The draft, in any form, is nothing more than using the threat of force (jail) to achieve a goal that can be reached through other, better means.

Handing the fate of our children over to people we can't trust isn't a solution. It's a cop-out.

[Union Thug]

11. The problem is that working class kids get fucked in the volunteer

system. This is why we need 100% public funding of education through masters and phd levels for everyone.

[Mythsaje]

13. Yup...

Invest in infrastructure, provide incentives to business and communities to provide training and education in trades, offer the most disadvanted options to move forward and gain skills they wouldn't ordinarily have had, and educate ALL our children to the best of our ability.

You don't have to FORCE people to enter civil service if you make it a viable option to improve their lives. I think an ENTICEMENT to join Americorps and its like would be a wonderful idea, if you guarantee good food, decent housing, and skills and/or education to advance the candidate's chances of success in the future.

Carrot. Not stick.

[midnight]

29. I love that idea. And I think Kerry's statement about getting into

school was an important idea to share with the public. Now we have to put money behind education, and not war.

[KharmaTrain]

14. Tolerance And Discussions Have Little Place Here Now...Time To Move On

This will probably be one of my last posts on DU for quite a while. It's done with regret as I've been a member here for over 4 years and have always considered this site as a place to exchange ideas and get different perspectives on issues...or to present one's take on things. Instead it appears a mob mentality has swarmed down...with some viscious and nasty personal attacks if you disagree with someone or attempt to engage in a dialogue. It reeks of the worst aspects of the right wing boards and only serves to create bad feelings and further misunderstandings between people who agree on a vast majority of issues.

With this I take my leave of DU and wish all well here. I'll probably continue to browse here and support this site and a vast number of the good people here, but the vitriol and lack of patience and respect towards contrary opionions or an inability to discuss and debate...instead going into name calling, parsing posts and belittling people has turned this into a very toxic place.

To all those who I've enjoyed posting with, here's a final toast to the many great posts and discussions we've had and here's hoping we connect again somewhere in "the internets" and to keep fighting the good fight. To those who feel they have to pick fights and demean people who disagree with them and can't discuss, I wish you well as well...but I'm tired of people attempting to tell me how I think or should think or if I don't think like them I'm some evil monster or insensitive or "don't get it".

I do get it...time to move along.

Peace to all...

[Mythsaje]

15. Yeah, there's some toxicity, that's for sure...

And there are those who find it easier to cast aspersions than debate the issues at hand. But, in general, I still find most people willing to find some middle ground. On most subjects. There are a few I won't address, simply because I've learned my lesson, but, overall, I find that most posters seem to be able to deal with contrary opinions.

It's a good thing, really, since I'm full of contrary opinions.

[KharmaTrain]

19. I Used To Think That Way

I've had some great discussions here...learned from others insights that helped me get a better understanding of different sides of an issue. Life isn't black and white, but shades of grey...and its those differences and contrary opinions that can help open eyes or move a dialogue further. But that's only when there are people willing to discuss not castigate or flame.

Hell, I'm not taken seriously here...and know I surely won't be missed. Just the atmosphere around here has gotten ugly. A lot of the people I enjoyed discussing with are no longer here...having given up in frustration or flamed themselves into a tombstone. I have a lot more important things to do than put up with this garbage.

Maybe in a few weeks or months this place will settle down.

[genie_weenie]

16. We don't live in a free, open, democratic society.

What we have allowed to happen with the Volunteer Military, the broken school system, immigration, the cap on minimum wage, the tax system is create an environment were a segment of society will be impoverished and to that segment you open the trap door of "honorable" military service...

[Mythsaje]

21. The system is broken, yes...

I'd like to see some real debate on how to fix it.

I don't think THIS particular issue helps.

[Stinky The Clown]

30. I see it differently. I think this issue *does* help.

First, congrats to you. You've crafted a thread where there is some honest and less inflamed discussion. That's a good thing.

But to the point. Without the issue having come up, this thread would not be here and the admission that there is a some level of debt we each owe our country and our society would not have been addressed.

In that respect, at least, perhaps we can agree that some good came of it.

[Mythsaje]

31. I don't want to see people screaming at each other about this...

I actually see this whole debate as symbolizing a marked schism between two very distinct branches of liberalism. I just happen to belong to the anti-authoritarian crowd that says "I don't have the right to force you to do anything, and you don't have the right to do that to me either."

As I said in another thread. My issue is that I, personally, don't think I have the right to MAKE a person choose public service in ANY form. And this is above and beyond what I myself might do. I might choose to volunteer (I have, in a few different ways in the past and will most likely do so again) but I do not have the right to force someone to make the same decision by rule of law.

This, in my mind, is very different from saying "you shall not pollute" or "you shall not discriminate against this class of people." This is saying, in effect, that I have a right to determine a portion of your fate and I get to use the threat of force (by threatening to send you to jail at gunpoint) to make you do it.

There's a difference between encouraging, or even enticing, people to volunteer for public service--JFK's "ask not what your country can do for you" speech is a great example of what I mean--and believing so strongly that such self-sacrifice is right that I am willing to MAKE someone do it. And at that point it's not really "self-" sacrifice, now is it?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

17. I don't want a draft, but I do want the country to be discussing this

When someone gets all irate about the bill being put forward, I explain to them exactly why Rangel is doing it.

I explain that it's mostly poor kids who are doing service, how if everyone had a child at risk they would think twice before going to war. I ask, where are the Victory Gardens, the Rationing, the metal drives? What have YOU sacrificed for this 'War'?

It's shaking people up, making them think... and that's always a good thing. imho.

[Mythsaje]

22. I don't think the debate is bad...

I think the IDEA is bad.

A fine point on it, perhaps, but...there you have it.

[ClassWarrior]

27. I feel the opposite way.

I think the idea is bad, but I don't think the debate is bad. B-)

So I guess, essentially, we do agree. :toast:

NGU.

[Mythsaje]

28. LOL

Indeed! :toast:

[pnwmom]

18. Tremendous post, Mythsaje. Especially this part:

"The FIRST thing people need to do when something is suggested is look at both the positive AND the negative. What's the WORSE thing that could be done with this, if someone had the chance? Never, ever assume that it's all for the good. It NEVER works out that way. Not when you're talking about the realities of power.

"How people who talk about how 9/11 may have been orchestrated, and that the Diebold machines are stealing our votes, can possibly think that handing them future generations of OUR CHILDREN could ever be a good thing. . . .

"Trust NOTHING."