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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:37 PM
Original message
Carville abandoned by all (even Hillary)
The trouble with training someone to triangulate - is just that!

Kos has the details:

Carville has been left to the wolves, alone and friendless in his condemnation of Dean.

James Carville's attempt to topple Howard Dean as chairman of the Democratic National Committee failed after state party officials and even a vocal critic of Dean crushed the coup, officials said.

Insiders from the Clinton camp winced at Carville's untimely remarks last week calling for Dean's ouster in favor of unsuccessful Senate candidate Harold Ford of Tennessee.

"It was not coming from and they made a real effort to distance themselves from James' comments," said a source close to the Clintons.

The Clintonistas don't want an undeserved backlash from the activist wing of the party that overwhelmingly supports Dean, especially because some anti-Clinton Democrats have blamed Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.) for the attack by Carville, a longtime Clinton insider. Those forces claimed Carville's motive was to topple Dean in favor of a chairman more favorable to Sen. Clinton's bid for President <...>

Even Dean-basher Rep. Rahm Emanuel (D-Ill.), chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee and an exadviser to former President Bill Clinton, called Dean last week to say Carville was acting alone, and one-time DNC Chairman Don Fowler referred to Carville as an "ill-advised" voice.

"Why do the Washington people think that they have a special prerogative to dictate what the Democratic Party needs?" Fowler wrote in an e-mail to the party faithful. "Why should anyone want to mess with the team that won these remarkable results?"




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KingFlorez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. As he should be
You just don't say things like that after a win, it makes no sense.
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cspanlovr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sleeping with the enemy. He's turned.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. Turned, hell. His wife is a WAR CRIMINAL. She will be subpeonaed to
testify against , among others, Richard "DICK" Cheney, and the other evil jerks who lied Congress into the Iraq Invasion and occupation. The awful woman will be required to choose between silence and honesty -- the two things she really SUCKS at. Pretty scary situation for her, I'm sure.

Carville and Matalin have 2 kids.

Serpenthead doesn't want to raise his children alone.

I doubt Matalin's much of a Mother but she's the only one they have.

Carvilles self-serving talk makes much more sense once these facts are considered.
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tenshi816 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. They have kids???
I hate to think about what the poor things look like. It disturbs me in the same way that finding out Karl Rove was a father did.

Having Mary Matalin read a bedtime story is enough to provoke a lifetime of nightmares.
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enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. Glenn Greenwald had a great analysis of this last week: Carville has no consitutency.
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/11/how-myth-gets-built-into-conventional.html

How myth gets built into conventional wisdom

Here are two examples perfectly illustrating how conventional wisdom is created by journalists and pundits who are either lazy, dishonest, or both:

(1) James Carville tells The New Republic's Ryan Lizza that he thinks Harold Ford should replace Howard Dean as DNC Chair. Lizza turns that into a claim that "some big name Democrats want to oust DNC Chairman Howard Dean, arguing that his stubborn commitment to the 50-state strategy and his stinginess with funds for House races cost the Democrats several pickup opportunities."

That in turn leads Anne Kornblut in her article today in The New York Times -- identifying the "winners and losers" in the midterm elections -- to assert that "the jury is still out on Howard Dean" because:


With rumblings of a movement to draft Mr. Ford to replace Mr. Dean at the national committee, several Democrats privately said Mr. Emanuel was winning the power struggle.

snip>

It's a "movement" of one, because all of this comes from James Carville's stray comment placed in TNR (and he's also the only one Kornblut quotes). But now this will be conventional wisdom -- tacitly accepted everywhere and never examined -- that Dean is in trouble, that a major faction of the Democratic Party wants Dean out as DNC Chair, that there is a war among various Democratic factions over Dean.

This will all now be "fact" even though Carville has no constituency whatsoever, represents nobody, has no way to oust Dean, and is simply venting long-standing animosity he has towards the insurgent, anti-establishment Dean (who, unlike an envious Carville, actually represents and is supported by large numbers of people). But Carville's one comment, to lazy reporters, means now that there is some major tension among "Democrats" and that some imagined "jury" is still out on Howard Dean. All of that is based on nothing.

snip>
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Thank you for writing that!! n/t
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enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. All thanks go to Glenn Greenwald at the link.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. that was a great read
thanks for posting it.
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Excellent, thanks for posting that!
:kick:
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. Maybe he can redeem himself
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 09:12 PM by rocknation
by helping out the Landslide Denied folks, or with that Jennings recount battle in Florida. He might even find those election victories that he accused Dean of taking from him.

:headbang:
rocknation

P.S. ALWAYS use a blog post's permalink. That way you can find it once it's pushed off the blog's home page.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. The Clintons had nothing to do with the plot
There wasn't even a plot. Nobody attacked Dean except for James Carville. I believe the RW planted the seeds of blame for the Clintons for Carville's remarks. There never was a shred of evidence that the Clintons had anything to do with it. It wouldn't make sense for the Clintons to go after Dean. Dean isn't even up for reelection this year. He's serving a four year term.

Its sad that these RW smears were picked up by so many on the left. I like to believe I'm on the side that waits for evidence before attacking.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. LOL
The denial from the Clinton camp was as weak as it could be. This so called denial came out a week and a half after Carville started the whole thing. Why wait so long? It's called a trial balloon, and when it was clear it wasn't gonna fly, they issued this tepid denial. Yeah, Hillary had nothing to do with it. Right.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Yeah - Would anyone want to bet their HOUSE that Clintons had nothing to do with it?
Just as they had 'nothing to do with' heyjohn.com, or furthering BushInc's lie that Kerry insulted the troops.

Just as they had nothing to do with covering up for BushInc at every turn.

Time the party WAKES UP and smells the BFEE in their midst.

The author is allowing this article to be reprinted in full.


Democrats, the Truth Still Matters!
By Robert Parry
(First Posted May 11, 2006)

Editor's Note: With the Democratic victories in the House and Senate, there is finally the opportunity to demand answers from the Bush administration about important questions, ranging from Dick Cheney's secret energy policies to George W. Bush's Iraq War deceptions. But the Democrats are sure to be tempted to put the goal of "bipartisanship" ahead of the imperative for truth.

Democrats, being Democrats, always want to put governance, such as enacting legislation and building coalitions, ahead of oversight, which often involves confrontation and hard feelings. Democrats have a difficult time understanding why facts about past events matter when there are problems in the present and challenges in the future.

Given that proclivity, we are re-posting a story from last May that examined why President Bill Clinton and the last Democratic congressional majority (in 1993-94) shied away from a fight over key historical scandals from the Reagan-Bush-I years -- and the high price the Democrats paid for that decision:

My book, Secrecy & Privilege, opens with a scene in spring 1994 when a guest at a White House social event asks Bill Clinton why his administration didn’t pursue unresolved scandals from the Reagan-Bush era, such as the Iraqgate secret support for Saddam Hussein’s government and clandestine arms shipments to Iran.

Clinton responds to the questions from the guest, documentary filmmaker Stuart Sender, by saying, in effect, that those historical questions had to take a back seat to Clinton’s domestic agenda and his desire for greater bipartisanship with the Republicans.

Clinton “didn’t feel that it was a good idea to pursue these investigations because he was going to have to work with these people,” Sender told me in an interview. “He was going to try to work with these guys, compromise, build working relationships.”

Clinton’s relatively low regard for the value of truth and accountability is relevant again today because other centrist Democrats are urging their party to give George W. Bush’s administration a similar pass if the Democrats win one or both houses of Congress.

Reporting about a booklet issued by the Progressive Policy Institute, a think tank of the Democratic Leadership Council, the Washington Post wrote, “these centrist Democrats … warned against calls to launch investigations into past administration decisions if Democrats gain control of the House or Senate in the November elections.”

These Democrats also called on the party to reject its “non-interventionist left” wing, which opposed the Iraq War and which wants Bush held accountable for the deceptions that surrounded it.

“Many of us are disturbed by the calls for investigations or even impeachment as the defining vision for our party for what we would do if we get back into office,” said pollster Jeremy Rosner, calling such an approach backward-looking.

Yet, before Democrats endorse the DLC’s don’t-look-back advice, they might want to examine the consequences of Clinton’s decision in 1993-94 to help the Republicans sweep the Reagan-Bush scandals under the rug. Most of what Clinton hoped for – bipartisanship and support for his domestic policies – never materialized.

‘Politicized’ CIA

After winning Election 1992, Clinton also rebuffed appeals from members of the U.S. intelligence community to reverse the Reagan-Bush “politicization” of the CIA’s analytical division by rebuilding the ethos of objective analysis even when it goes against a President’s desires.

Instead, in another accommodating gesture, Clinton gave the CIA director’s job to right-wing Democrat, James Woolsey, who had close ties to the Reagan-Bush administration and especially to its neoconservatives.

One senior Democrat told me Clinton picked Woolsey as a reward to the neocon-leaning editors of the New Republic for backing Clinton in Election 1992.

“I told that the New Republic hadn’t brought them enough votes to win a single precinct,” the senior Democrat said. “But they kept saying that they owed this to the editors of the New Republic.”

During his tenure at the CIA, Woolsey did next to nothing to address the CIA’s “politicization” issue, intelligence analysts said. Woolsey also never gained Clinton’s confidence and – after several CIA scandals – was out of the job by January 1995.

At the time of that White House chat with Stuart Sender, Clinton thought that his see-no-evil approach toward the Reagan-Bush era would give him an edge in fulfilling his campaign promise to “focus like a laser beam” on the economy.

He was taking on other major domestic challenges, too, like cutting the federal deficit and pushing a national health insurance plan developed by First Lady Hillary Clinton.

So for Clinton, learning the truth about controversial deals between the Reagan-Bush crowd and the autocratic governments of Iraq and Iran just wasn’t on the White House radar screen. Clinton also wanted to grant President George H.W. Bush a gracious exit.

“I wanted the country to be more united, not more divided,” Clinton explained in his 2004 memoir, My Life. “President Bush had given decades of service to our country, and I thought we should allow him to retire in peace, leaving the (Iran-Contra) matter between him and his conscience.”

Unexpected Results

Clinton’s generosity to George H.W. Bush and the Republicans, of course, didn’t turn out as he had hoped. Instead of bipartisanship and reciprocity, he was confronted with eight years of unrelenting GOP hostility, attacks on both his programs and his personal reputation.

Later, as tensions grew in the Middle East, the American people and even U.S. policymakers were flying partially blind, denied anything close to the full truth about the history of clandestine relationships between the Reagan-Bush team and hostile nations in the Middle East.

Clinton’s failure to expose that real history also led indirectly to the restoration of Bush Family control of the White House in 2001. Despite George W. Bush’s inexperience as a national leader, he drew support from many Americans who remembered his father’s presidency fondly.

If the full story of George H.W. Bush’s role in secret deals with Iraq and Iran had ever been made public, the Bush Family’s reputation would have been damaged to such a degree that George W. Bush’s candidacy would not have been conceivable.

Not only did Clinton inadvertently clear the way for the Bush restoration, but the Right’s political ascendancy wiped away much of the Clinton legacy, including a balanced federal budget and progress on income inequality. A poorly informed American public also was easily misled on what to do about U.S. relations with Iraq and Iran.

In retrospect, Clinton’s tolerance of Reagan-Bush cover-ups was a lose-lose-lose – the public was denied information it needed to understand dangerous complexities in the Middle East, George W. Bush built his presidential ambitions on the nation’s fuzzy memories of his dad, and Republicans got to enact a conservative agenda.

Clinton’s approach also reflected a lack of appreciation for the importance of truth in a democratic Republic. If the American people are expected to do their part in making sure democracy works, they need to be given at least a chance of being an informed electorate.

Yet, Clinton – and now some pro-Iraq War Democrats – view truth as an expendable trade-off when measured against political tactics or government policies. In reality, accurate information about important events is the lifeblood of democracy.

Though sometimes the truth can hurt, Clinton and the Democrats should understand that covering up the truth can hurt even more. As Clinton’s folly with the Reagan-Bush scandals should have taught, the Democrats may hurt themselves worst of all when helping the Republicans cover up the truth.

Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories in the 1980s for the Associated Press and Newsweek. His latest book, Secrecy & Privilege: Rise of the Bush Dynasty from Watergate to Iraq, can be ordered at secrecyandprivilege.com. It's also available at Amazon.com, as is his 1999 book, Lost History: Contras, Cocaine, the Press & 'Project Truth.'
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. I'd bet my house n/t
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. You seem to be dismissing me with laughter
I've been doubting kook conspiracy theories about the Clintons since 1992. I'm 10,000 and one.

A trial balloon is floated to get an idea of what public reaction would be. The Clintons, being among the most skilled politicians in the country, would not doubt that trying to remove Howard Dean as committee chair would start a war with the base of the party. They need no balloon to tell them that.

I think the Clintons didn't forcefully deny this at first because they didn't want to be involved, as a denial would escalate the situation because the denial would be big news.

Less than a week ago, the kook conspiracy theories said that there was a massive plot underway to have Dean removed as party chairman. The plot involved people from the DNC and Clinton associates and was all masterminded by the Clintons themselves. The problem with that conspiracy theory came when nobody could name anybody else specifically that was involved in the plot. No DNC members were approached. Nothing but James Carville talking trash, which he does professionally. I suggest if you want to laugh at people, you laugh at the folks who believed the plot theory. And laugh at the folks who, rather than admit they were wrong, came up with an equally implausible balloon theory to coverup up the plot theory.
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CTD Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. Republicans are drooling at the prospect of Hillary being the nominee.
They desperately want her to be the nominee. It may be their only chance of retaining the White House in 2008.

Basically, Hillary as the Dem nominee WILL mean our next president will be a Republican.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. carville "abandoned" by everyone save
matalin, no doubt. They can commiserate in that place where politics make strange bedfellows.

I guess the big trail balloon was full of lead.
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
8. Didn't Carville and Bagola (sic) write something called
Fuck it Up, Suck it Up or something like that. Well, he can just read his own book.
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enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
11. morning kick
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populistdriven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. whooohoooo!
nice to see him get what he deserves - even though its 2 years too late in coming.


:bounce:
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
15. Oh, uh huh,
and I SOOO believe Hillary didn't have anything to do with Carville opening his idiot mouth.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
16. Your link just goes to the Kos front page.
Do you have the link to the original post?
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
17. The most important rule in such affairs as this is...
Find a blind man to kill the foreign mercernaries who killed the men who killed the hitman you hired. Also, wipe your fingerprints off the knife when you're done with the blind guy. Never leave any trace.
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zreosumgame Donating Member (862 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
18. hey, he can't be ALL bad after all
he didn't say the 'n-word' to a bunch of assholes shouting at him....
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
21. I still think the Clinton's gave this their blessings and then distanced
themselves. Sorry, but Carville would have no other reason to do it other than for the Clinton's.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
22. Way overdue to kick Carville to the curb. His shelf life has expired. n/t
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
25. F*ck him, he's a Giant Douche
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