Reinstate the draft, my ass. What, we're not a militaristic enough country?

[Redstone]

Yeah, sure, let's get all the kids trained so we can save some time getting them ready when we decide to invade the NEXT country that didn't do a fucking thing to us.

Reinstate the draft. Fuck me, are people still that stupid in this country? I guess they are.

Redstone

[muntrv]

1. The purpose of Charles Range's reinstating the draft is so that

our elected officials will think twice before sending our soldiers to war, since THEIR own kids could end up serving. Right now it's just the poor schmucks who serve in the armed forces.

[JVS]

3. purpose is one thing to consider, but result might be more important

The rich aren't going to be in a tough spot like that, but if a slightly edited version of this idea goes through, it's going to cause much wailing and gnashing of teeth

[Redstone]

4. Horseshit. How fucking easy was it for rich kids and sons of politicians to evade

the draft last time? It was pretty fucking easy. For example, our patriotic president.

It's an astonishingly stupid and naive idea. I don't buy it, because I was there that last time.

Do you REALLY think the politicians wouldn't be able to get their kids out? If you do, I feel sorry for you., because you obviously have a LOT to learn about the real world.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

7. Our elected officials don't THINK period. They've proven it.

[bdamomma]

23. and see how fast they would end that war too.

[wuushew]

27. The rich and well educated tend to become officers

any draft that would place a technically qualified individual in a less distinguished role out of a sense of egalitarianism runs contrary to the efficiency of the killing machine.

Does love of fairness override the strong fear of doing anything that might be proposed to weaken the combat potential of the United States? The political risk far outweighs the boldness of the proposal.


Neocon children will never die at the same rate as normals, and as long this disparity exists war will continue.

[kdpeters]

70. So you're telling me it's really a bunch of bullshit and that's supposed to be a defense?

our elected officials will think twice before sending our soldiers to war

Elected officials will only think twice before ever listening to anything Rangel says again -- and for good reason.

[benddem]

2. we'd be less militaristic

if we had a draft. Do you really think all those SUV and Hummer drivers would have been so crazy about this war if they had to think about their kids going. Rangel is just trying to get the discussion going. He voted against this the last time he proposed it.

[mike_c]

5. if we had a draft cannon fodder would be cheap and easy to obtain...

...and we'd be fighting W's hegemonistic "force projection" wars in more places than Iraq today.

[Redstone]

6. Again, bullshit. The rich kids and sons of politicians got out before, so WHAT

makes you think it would be different now?

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

9. The entire US has done nothing BUT discuss Iraq for the past 3 years

We need a Congressman to propose a draft to initiate a lousy fucking discussion? Where has he been, in the loo for all these months of dead bodies?

[MadMaddie]

38. He's been saying it for awhile now...and he has been the only

one...

[AndyTiedye]

16. Yes! Remember ** Told Us Saddam Was Going to NUKE Us!

It was all a pack of LIES, of course, but everyone believed it.

[bridgit]

8. well you're right, but my understanding is that Rangel wants this burden...

spread beyond the racial, socio-economic pools the cheney/bush/neocon lunatics have been routinely going to to make up their so-called 'volunteer' army, that and the debate that would flow from exposing the military practice of doing so i should mention

they made a great stink when Kerry mentioned having little education vis-a-vis a lack options in a young person's life...but that is exactly where the military has been going for bush's neocon canon fodder, disgusting

[MichiganVote]

10. So a discussion about draft is going to end the "burden"? Fine.

Consider it discussed and let's get on with the inevitable, withdrawl.

[Redstone]

12. What you said. Pick up our shit and go home. Now.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

14. That's right baby. Hitch up the skirts and hit the road.

It's the right thing to do.

[Redstone]

17. Yup. Look how well "getting the job done" worked in Viet Nam. 57,000 names.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

31. Precisely. And they could have quit at a 1000, 10,000, 20,000

But they didn't. They knew they could. They knew they should. But they didn't. They just never can quit. Power addicts.

[Redstone]

37. I visit one of those names whenever I'm in DC. Lance Corporal Michael A. Baronowski.

My next-door neighbor, my friend, my mentor, and my Big Brother, until the war took him.

And I followed him, and it almost took me.

No more. Just no fucking more.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

40. My brother was a medic. He had two nervous breakdowns and a

knee injury that sent him stateside finally. He drank all his life. He'd been to war before the war with sick parents who were pretty brutal themselves. They sent him off to Nam in a taxi after a window shattering fight the night before.

Lot of kids over there were beat up before Nam'. The war gave some of them a way out or a way into the ground. Or, like you perhaps, a second chance.

Even the wounded have their place on earth.

[Redstone]

43. Good God, what you said:

"...Or, like you perhaps, a second chance.

Even the wounded have their place on earth."

I'm stunned. I will be forever in your debt for providing those words for me to read. They hit home.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

45. I know hon'....I know.

Maybe someday, someone will reach into my brother's heart too.

Live grateful.

[Redstone]

46. I do, that I do. Every day.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

48. :) I'm off to bed. Up early at 5am. Peace.

[bridgit]

47. not the point...

the burden will continue to fall upon certain & specific pools of 'human resource' other than bush, cheney, their children, their nieces, their nephews as there was no debate to begin with

in the interim between now & withdrawal, the discussion as to why that is the case needs to be exposed, why is war without end any kind of option at all, why are the rich doing nothing or being asked to share no burden besides counting their obscener tax cuts & breaks, why are military recruiters targeting only they where it may be said life options are less frequent

plus, by focusing the american eye, which can be very lazy indeed; at this time & upon this topic of 'the draft', Rangel has gotten no-less than you & i to talk about something other than OJ's bullshit book deal

and i don't see a downside to paying more attention to important issues

[MichiganVote]

51. Well I've been truckin' against the war since its inception

[bridgit]

52. that sounds right to me...

[Redstone]

11. Oh, yeah, and when we HAD a draft, the Army WASN'T black and Hispanic

WAY out of whack with the percentages of the general population?

Yeah, right.

Bridgit, go read your history, please. the draft produced EVERY BIT the army that you're saying the current one is.

Go read your history, and my other posts in this thread, and don't be taken in by the Utopian bullshit that's being preached in favor of a draft.

Redstone

[bridgit]

49. well now you're just being condescending friend, this was a topic & train...

of thought fleshed out on the Randi Rhoades show just today, she believes as i do; it is time to re-orient our thinking back onto matters that need to be addressed...perhaps you should do the same Redstone

it is more than a bit presumptuous of you to think i know little or nothing about history, i'm not even going to commend you for your effort

[Union Thug]

13. Draft or no draft...they'll have to kill me to get my kid to fight a rich man's

war.

Fuck 'em all.

[MichiganVote]

15. All wars are economically driven.

[Redstone]

20. Your point being?

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

28. The only pure wars are on the silver screen. All societies fight for

some resource somewhere. The wars among humans that are spawned by the wealthy are as easily won or lost by the poorest among us. Food, land, water, shelter, oil...anything necessary for the sustenance of life, humans will fight over. In the name of nationalism, zealotry, religion, fear, morality...war for resources is cloaked in any of these and more.

What is most disturbing about the war in Iraq is that it has become the equivalent of an Ohio-Michigan game. Thing is, even football games have an end with a winner and a loser. Somehow we manage to accept that in sports but we choose not to accept it when it comes to war. At least in the US.

Just ramblin' Redstone.

[Redstone]

32. Rambling, yes, but you make a good point upon amplification. Thanks for

amplifying.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

33. You and I are on the same page on this one Redstone.

[Redstone]

35. All righty, then. Though I say "fuck" more than you do. I should stop doing that.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

39. Well its a good word in the right company :)

[Union Thug]

21. Exactly.

[Redstone]

18. I have places I can send my sons where they'll NEVER find them.

Redstone

[wtmusic]

19. That's one of the biggest problems with this war

What the hell is going to happen if we ever actually NEED a military to defend this country?

[Redstone]

22. Oh, plenty of people would sign up to DEFEND the country; we're just not going

to send our kids to die for nothing.

At least I'm not. Draft or no fucking draft.

Redstone

[wtmusic]

24. It will be too late

We need some degree of readiness even during peacetime. Who wants to enlist now? Who's going to trust this administration, or any administration for that matter?

[Redstone]

26. And a draft would solve that? I don't think so.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

30. Readiness? In the US? That's a joke now.

[Redstone]

36. Yes. Just go look at the backup of equipment waiting for repair at Tobyhanna

Army Depot in Pennsylvania. Anyone who does that will know you're right.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

41. My son has friends who are in the guard, all their stuff is shit now

[Union Thug]

25. If invaders were storming our shores, I'm sure there would

be no shortage of people rushing to defend their country. But that is a completely different situation. Iraq is the perfect example of the "rich man's war, poor man's fight". No child of mine will die so that the DickHead Cheney's of the world can continue to gorge themselves.

[OhioChick]

29. I completely agree with you.

This "draft talk" is hurting the Dem party. I was sitting in an ER waiting room with Faux blaring on the television. As you can imagine, they were hammering all of this "Democrat in favor of draft" talk. Patients began talking. Many were saying that if they knew of this, they would've never voted for a Democrat in the last election. (Keep in mind that I also live in a very "blue" area)

What many people fail to realize is that much of the population doesn't give a rat's ass about the "news" or politics for that matter. They only hear these little "snippets" and base their votes off of them. They hear the word "draft" and will vote against whichever party it's brought up by.

As for the talk up-thread regarding the rich or politician's kids being drafted......there is no way in hell that will ever happen.

I can see why Rangel brought this up in the past, but not now.

[Redstone]

34. You make a damn good point. It may have had some shock value when he first

said it, but it's counterproductive and really fucking stupid now.

Please excuse my language, but I've been through all this once. And it's not going to happen to my kids. No way.

Redstone

[OhioChick]

50. I hear you......

I have kids, as well.

[Art_from_Ark]

69. You're right--

Rangel needs to quit posturing.

Someone just might call his bluff.

[guardian]

42. No way I would go.

Canada is looking better and better.

[Redstone]

44. If you are of that age, keep your passport renewed, and your car packed. If even

the Democrats are backing such an idiotic idea, you may have to go.

Redstone

[FightingIrish]

53. It's a wake up call

The draft isn't going to happen but Rangel is reminding us all that war is not always about other people or other people's kids going off to die. The argument that a volunteer military is better than a conscripted force is misguided. We already have a de facto draft for the stop lossed victims of a busted system. The lowered standards and raised age limits for enlistment is clear evidence that the volunteer force has been taxed beyond its limits. Real heroes aside, I'm not sure I would want to be in today's military where for too many it is a way out of something worse. The people I served with during the Viet Nam war were some of the finest people I have ever known. They were thoughtful citizens who helped me see the folly of that particular war. In my flight crew were students, business owners, poets and dreamers. If we can have elective wars then by all means let's have a draft and not allow the architects to claim that all the victims volunteered for their fate.

[HughBeaumont]

54. Why do you feel there should be "victims" at ALL?

Because Washington DC doesn't have ENOUGH monuments with names of the dead, some of whom DIDN'T volunteer?

Removing someone from their life, demeaning, mechanizing and hazing them through exhausting death marches, sticking a gun in their hand and asking them to die for Kellogg, Brown and Root is FORCED SERVITUDE. Slavery is NOT a progressive value and even less so when confronted with the modern purpose of it.

Even suggesting an empirical army led by the worst head of state this country has seen since Ronald Reagan is madness.

How's about kicking the US addiction to militarism, pulling out of this illegal war without ONE more soldier dying and rebuilding our infrastructure and economy instead? Or is that not a viable option any longer?

[Redstone]

55. That's exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks for saying it better.

Redstone

[FightingIrish]

58. My point is that the talk of a draft, absurd as it is

has got people thinking about the lunacy of war, especially wars we do not have to fight. Rangel is safe in knowing that nobody is going to commit political suicide by voting for the draft. The best way out of an unfair system is a responsible foreign policy that doesn't waste our kids for corporate interests or political gain.

[bridgit]

59. agreed...

[Jcrowley]

67. Excellent

On the mark

[Redstone]

57. Nice fantasy on Rangel's part, but let me ask you this: Did any of the draftees

you served with come from wealthy families? Like, say, the bush family?

I'll bet they didn't.

Redstone

[FightingIrish]

60. The people I served with volunteered because they wanted

some choice in how they served. No one I served with had Bush grade wealth, but we did have a good cross section of society. Almost everyone was giving up a better life and a career that had nothing to do with war. I have two draft age sons and I have been very outspoken about my objection to Bush's war. I live in a resaonably affluent western city that has not suffered a single loss in Afghanistan or Iraq. Talk of the draft brings the folly of war home to people who think it can't happen here.

[USA_1]

56. ...

Reinstate the draft. Fuck me, are people still that stupid in this country? I guess they are.




I listened to Air America Radio and Big Ed of Jones Radio. It seems like all of those hosts are intent on promoting the draft. Perhaps it is because they are well past draft age.

In each show the host would repeat why they tohught the draft is good and would cut off anyone who dared to dissent from their view. If fact, it seemed as if I was listening to reich wing radio rather than liberal or progressive radio.

Kiss the 2008 election good bye!

[Redstone]

61. Yes, indeed. If this keeps up, the Dems are doomed.

Redstone

[doublethink]

62. K&R ....

:kick: that pretty much says it all. Peace. M.

[BlackVelvet04]

63. Unbelievable......

I wasn't willing to see my loved ones sacrificed in Vietnam nor am I willing to see them sacrificed in Iraq.

If Rangle wants to start a discussion then find another way. This is damned stupid.

Those who weren't around for the Vietnam era don't have a clue as to what the draft did to this country. How many became criminals because they dodged the draft? The government had a never ending supply of cannon fodder and it was not comprised of wealthy families kids.

[HughBeaumont]

64. I have two problems with the responses I'm seeing on DU:

First one: There is one thing that's valid about Rangel's little "issue"; that being it DOES get people talking about the atrocities of the Iraq conflict and putting it at the forefront. What galls me is that there are those who consider the American response so far to be "apathetic", as if none of us are protesting or caring enough? What do you call 500,000 people in DC on Sept 24-25th, 2005? What do you call the 3 million or so worldwide that protested the Iraq invasion in 2003? What do you call a Democratic victory in both the House and Senate? This shows the American people DO care. They WANT this maddening and illegal war to be over and for us not to further spread "democracy" throughout the Middle Eastern Nations that never attacked us.

They've wholesale said NO to more children, husbands and wives from BOTH sides dying daily.

Second problem: That the issue is revealing an ugly side of DU, in that it's bringing out these closet hawkish lunatics who support mandatory military service for REAL, thinking it would "do the young of this country more good", "make us have skin in the game", "whip us into shape because we're too soft!", "make the Gen Xers and Yers take life more seriously" or whatever bullshit reasoning they use.

Wow, the military did some people a WORLD of good. That's great. Everyone's like everyone else, and would be more than HAPPY to be treated as less than roach shit and turned into a human target; so long as it preserves the democracy and (dare I say it) FREEDOMS we hold so dear, then it in turn is a NOBLE cause, right?

Does anybody understand the purpose of the modern military? Has no one ever even GLANCED at the book called Addicted to War? What right does ANYone have to pull someone out of their life; haze and mentally beat them into submission, turn them into a non-feeling unstable cog, stick them into a field of battle and have them risk their life for the wants and behest of people like Dick Fucking CHENEY?

Modern aggressive invasions are NOT for noble causes.

Some may be for a draft because they believe it would be all-inclusive (a WHOPPER of a lie) and it would test the mettle of America's populace who they believe, opposed to the war or not, should be conscripted because only then will they be truly qualified to oppose and bring down the belief systems of a corpocratic structure currently enjoying a stranglehold on the taxes and finances of the citizenry.

I just think it's a rather weird point of view. War is wrong, being forced to do something you don't want to have anything to do with is wrong, and it makes you no less of a supporter of the mission of our military if you don't support conscription. The draft is already here. Every male by law is required to sign up for Selective Service when they turn 18.

I don't consider the bastard holding our office hostage a leader or even a human being. He's beneath me morally, he's a high-paid common criminal, and certainly not one who I'd EVER be willing to lay my life or my child's life on the line for. I'm not the one under some delusion that we have a democracy in this country or currently a government whose ideals and policies meet the needs of its citizenry.

The fact that 51% or more of our discretionary tax dollars go to a waste vacuum such as the DOD is unfortunate, but that is the unspoken law of our land. I don't exactly have a choice in that matter, lest I get jailed. Yet how many people would be under a specter of death because they didn't pay taxes?

This isn't some kind of joke or political chess piece - it's your LIFE. A life of any human being isn't worth playing with. It's senseless to suggest drafting to end violence and militarism.

You reinstitute a draft, that will mobilize EVERYONE, especially if the age limit is 42. You'll get your blood in the streets. You'll get the storming of the White House. It's never going to happen because of that eventuality and they know this. I'd rather have and work harder for a peaceful solution to wrestle the reins of government from the current Junta holding it hostage than risk one more life in a one-particpant dick-swinging contest.

[sofa king]

65. I am reminded of Scipio Africanus

When young Publius Cornelius Scipio began preparing to take Rome's second war with Carthage to Hannibal's doorstep for a change, he realized he would need a well equipped and well trained cavalry force, but he lacked the money or the support of the Senate to do so.

Scipio hatched a brilliant plan. He conscripted some 400 sons of the most wealthy and noble families in Sicily, where he was preparing his army. They were an excellent and quite obvious choice, as virtually all of them were guaranteed to be gifted horsemen.

But the Sicilian nobles vehemently protested. They didn't fully support Scipio's war, or for that matter Roman rule, but far more importantly they didn't support the idea that their children might actually have to risk their lives.

It was then that Scipio unfolded the second half of his plan. Scipio graciously announced he would excuse the young nobles from duty, if the rich Sicilian families would provide their finest horses, the finest equipment, and extensive training for the replacement riders--at their own expense.

The Sicilians accepted, with enthusiasm. And at the war-ending battle of Zama it was the superbly trained and equipped non-Sicilian-rich-kid cavalry which pursued Hannibal's cavalry from the field and then returned to deliver the decisive blow upon the rear of Hannibal's army.

So I happen to like Chuck Rangel's idea, one hell of a lot. Because a lot rich Republican assholes will give up just about everything to make sure someone else has to actually defend their country--and I'm thinking that at this point, just about everything might be just about enough.

[Hamlette]

66. You people do know that Switzerland has compulsory military service

for all men 18-32. damned war mongers the Swiss are.

[Mr_Spock]

68. Wow, talk about another post that makes no sense at all

What does your post have to do with anything? Or are you being sarcastic or do you really not get it???