To everyone who hates me right now

[Jed Dilligan]

I'd like to explain a couple of things.

I don't hate you personally because of your age or your opinions. What I hate is being stereotyped as apathetic or ignorant because my generation is reacting differently to this war from the way the Baby Boom generation (or a small minority of them, really) reacted to the Vietnam War. It seems that some members of that generation, and perhaps the "Greatest" Generation, too, loves the idea of drafting us to "wake us up" to what's wrong with the war and the country and the world.

If that describes you, I'd just like to ask you to count the blessings you had that we didn't. Like virtually free college for all qualified candidates. Or a police state that was, in comparison to today's, almost nonexistent. Or a living wage for nearly all full-time workers. Or a government that actually took note and responded when you protested. Or nutritious, non-poisoned food at regular, not specialty stores. Or a healthy small business sector in which smart, enterprising people could succeed.

People my age and younger never even caught a glimpse of that world. Most of us are neither ignorant nor unaware of the way the system works and the injustices in this country. We bear the brunt of the state's most oppressive policies. Our silence, which appears to be apathy, has always been a protest.

I am one of an apparently growing number of members of the X- and Y-generations who have begun to support the Democratic party in response to the ascendancy of George W. Bush. It was not ignorance or apathy that prevented me from supporting the party before. My non-votes were votes against the farce that this country is a democracy, and the fiction that I am governed by my consent.

More of us showed up this election than ever before. Our participation probably changed the outcome considerably. But now it's up to the party to show us that our voices were heard. It is not up to us to "wake up" and stop the war. It is up to the new majority in Congress to force Bush out of Iraq using budgetary pressure. That is the ONLY thing that will work. Claiming it is the apathy or ignorance of young people, or any people for that matter, is just blame-shifting by the politicians who DO have the power to stop it.

Question is, do they have the guts?

[porphyrian]

1. I'll kick that. - n/t

[liberaldemocrat7]

75. We need to exercise budgetary pressure on Bush's campaign contributors.

You can do that at http://www.dmocrats.org

[orpupilofnature57]

112. Democrats have to lead the Charge, those of us over 12 will never see

the End of the Lobbyist system ,that would be Democracy for All.

[orpupilofnature57]

2. The youth of our country will vote

[Jed Dilligan]

4. Care to elaborate?

[orpupilofnature57]

12. no

[graywarrior]

3. It's got nothing to do with you or your generation.

It's just another card they are playing. It will never happen because Bush would have to confess he is so ill equipped to run this war. Rangle, tho I think he's a pain in the ass, just opened a can of worms for discussion. I doubt there will be a draft. Don't listen to that shit. Just my 2 cents. But I am crazy (baby boomer nutcase).

[Wetzelbill]

20. He voted against his own bill 3 years ago

Rangel is safe in his district has no presidential ambitions or at least knows he would have no prayer of winning, so he can go on television and act like he is all for it without any political repercussions. I doubt he truly is for it, other than to make a point about sacrifice and how chickenshit Republicans are about this stuff. It is all about opening that can of worms, as you say, and I think that is just the kind of pain in the ass we need. :)

[graywarrior]

27. well said.

[brer cat]

33. Maybe so, but we have to listen to this generation. Ours is

past, but they don't know all that we went through. We need to continue to educate. * obviously learned nothing from VN and embarrassed us by saying so this week.

I'm so glad that your duct/duck is back. I missed him greatly when DU shut down sig lines.

[BurtWorm]

62. But you're absolutely right.

On principle, a draft in which every citizen has a stake in foreign policy and therefore politicians will think much more carefully about getting entangled in wars is a beautiful idea. The time for such a draft now when the war is already going and the people never wanted it is wrong. The people who got us embroiled are going to have to hack their way out of this one themselves. But it's lovely to watch a Korean War vet make them squirm.

[Hardrada]

5. As a War Child (1944) and pre-Boomer, I entirely empathize

with your point of view. One point though, it is very difficult for us who remember a more beautiful, a much more interesting (non-standardized), and a kinder world to adapt to this one.

[rockymountaindem]

15. Thanks for your understanding

What really gets me is how one little slip-up can cost you for the rest of your life. That, and how many tests we have to take. I just took the GRE this summer, and let me tell you, that's a frikkin' racket. Yet, if you want to get ahead, you have to pay 125 bucks to take it and do well. Gone are the days of on-the-job training. Now you've got to get your own training, and pay for it yourself. And God forbid you're not in the top 20% of people who took whatever test it is you have to take...

If I could pick period of the twentieth century to live in, it would have been the immediate post WWI era.

[mike_c]

6. oh dude-- I totally hear you-- you make good points-- but dayum...

...you do have some serious misconceptions about the paradise my generation lived in back during the good old days in the sixties and seventies....

:rofl:

[Jed Dilligan]

10. Paradise? I never said that.

But it was your country in a way that it isn't ours.

peace

[mike_c]

14. they shot tear gas at us, busted heads with nightsticks...

...coined the term "freaks" to describe us, which we embraced, but still. Our country? We grew into some ownership, but at the time, we were outcasts and freaks, agitators and traitors.

[greatauntoftriplets]

18. And lots of us got drafted and sent to Vietnam to have asses shot at...

Not me, of course. I am a woman. And damn relieved to be that and for that very reason.

Had I been draftable, I probably would have done time. Or escaped to Canada.

[ChiciB1]

30. And I Lost A LOT Of Friends In Viet Nam Too!!

It was no bed of roses... we had to fight back then just like we are now!

Rangel KNOWS this isn't going down... hold onto you hat, just wait an see. I don't see how the draft can EVER be part of this society ever again. It was pretty scary back then!

[CrispyQ]

78. Four dead in Ohio.

My god. I'll never forget the day I heard the news. It was just as big a blow to my image of my country as the assigination of JFK, MLK & RFK.

[Irishonly]

94. Horrible, horrible day

I also remember almost getting expelled for wearing a black arm band one year later and my dad, a WWII vet, telling the principal he didn't fight in a war just to see my freedom of speech threatened. I also remember racial fights every fall at my high school, war protests with arrests. It wasn't until much later that the "public" started agreeing with students. Most of us got student loans and it took years to pay them off.

[greatauntoftriplets]

11. Paradise Lost is more like it in "our day"

Should I use my cane or my walker? (I need neither.)

:rofl:

[MrSlayer]

7. Nicely said.

And no, they don't have the guts as we will see much to our regret.

[MadMaddie]

8. Nicely said...you know we all have our awakenings if you will...

I think that your generation did push the Dems over the top....you are suffering from the policies of this administration and 12 years of misguided Republican rule....

<snip>
But now it's up to the party to show us that our voices were heard. It is not up to us to "wake up" and stop the war. It is up to the new majority in Congress to force Bush out of Iraq using budgetary pressure.
<snip>

I have to disagree with you on the above statement...if you look at the Vietnam war and how it eventually ended....it was the American people and their protests that pushed the Government to end the war....

Because we have cast our vote our job is not over....it is up to us to keep our Democratic party members towing the line that we voted them in on....it is up to us to put the pressure on them to keep their word...WE the American people have to ensure that the Democratic Majority do the bidding of "We the people".....

Your question "Do they have the guts" yes they will with our Boots up their ass...every step of the way!!

[eleny]

19. I agree - It's still up to all of us to stop the war, Maddie

If we expect for congress to do it without our loud and continued pressing support, they'll be hard pressed to perform miracles. This election gave us the "small ledge" that Howard Zinn talked about when he hoped Kerry would win the '04 election. And from that small ledge, we get to prove to the other side that we damned well mean business.

And to the OP - the way back when wasn't as nice as you think. College kids in Ohio were gunned down. And I grew up breathing air fouled by coal heat, in NYC. Being groped on the subways didn't make life easy as a teen and young woman. Yes, every era has its great memories. Thank goodness, because 30-40 years later they drown out the crap.

[MuseRider]

22. And nuclear waste

from all the testing. Yes, it was nirvana.

[Lerkfish]

9. talk about rose colored glasses....

I"m nearly 50, I don't EVER recall the following:

Like virtually free college for all qualified candidates. Or a police state that was, in comparison to today's, almost nonexistent. Or a living wage for nearly all full-time workers. Or a government that actually took note and responded when you protested. Or nutritious, non-poisoned food at regular, not specialty stores. Or a healthy small business sector in which smart, enterprising people could succeed.

I agree things are not perfect now, but they were never as you describe it then.
Protestors during vietnam were shot dead in Kent state, beaten to a bloody pulp and and objects of derision and hatred by the "heat" or police.

[theoldman]

23. I am nearly 73 and I do remember those days.

My tuition $50 a semester and free to veterans. You could buy a house with only one person working a normal 40 hour week. Those were the days.

[Warren Stupidity]

44. You remember wrong. nt.

[Lerkfish]

80. really? Kent State shootings never happened?

protestors were never beaten by police?

I remembered all that wrong?

wow. I must have alzheimers.

[Art_from_Ark]

52. A lot of that actually did exist where I was, back in the '60s

Tuition at the University of Arkansas for in-staters was just $150-200 a semester (about half of an average month's salary). No police state to speak of, in that neck of the woods at least. My 3BR house with large yard cost $8000, which was 2 1/2 years of a teacher's salary. Bread was sometimes 10c a loaf on sale, and gasoline was around 20c/gallon. Downtown was thriving, even though Wal-Mart was just down the street (it was still mom-and-pop in those days).

There wasn't much protesting going on, though. Maybe something at the U. of Arkansas, but we never heard anything of it. I don't know about the grocery store food, but the public's awareness of DDT, at least, had been rasied by Rachel Carson's book in 1962 and it was eventually banned. No doubt there were other chemicals used as alternatives that were just as bad, though.

[pooja]

13. I'm right there with you.. AND I don't want even to risk putting

up the draft in the off chance that damn... it might pass... and damn me or my husband are eligible...

I want the war to end. I want to stop killing in the name of fighting the very TERROR we ourselves are creating. I am about building community relations. Taking govt back at a local level and expounding from there.

I am about a fair wage. I am about saving something of our enviroment for our children. I am so tired of how it was... Well, here it is... time to stop running scared. October 5th was about taking back America.. and you know what NO ONE STOPPED!!! On May 01 more illegal immigrants lined American streets demanding their rights. October 5th and AMERICANS CANT TAKE TO THEIR OWN STREETS BECAUSE OF FEAR!!!!

[Mythsaje]

16. I missed the sixties too...

I was ALIVE, but I don't remember anything of them to speak of.

My first real memories surface around 1970. Concerts at Stanford, the hippies hanging out with my Dad. Etc.

You make good points and as I told another poster, I stand by you in defense of your right to say "fuck no!" to the draft. I don't think it would have the effect they believe it would (especially considering they thought that eliminating the draft would eliminate wars of choice because people wouldn't volunteer for 'bad' wars).

The sixties were a time of terrible turmoil, when the people woke up and realized that the idyllic illusion of the 50s WAS an illusion, a facade covering up some very nasty infections like racism. Even now the conservatives wax nostalgic for the "good old days" that never really existed.

America has ALWAYS been about its ideals, in the end. The fact that the people believed that America stood for something above its dirty underbelly. Hope, freedom, peace, justice, equality. Even if they were at least partially illusory, they were still part of the world's perception of America, and of value for that reason alone.

I'd like to see the youth wake up and get involved. I really would. To reclaim that idealism that was once at the heart of what America was.

But, as you know, I oppose the draft. And I think you understand why.

[stonecoldsober]

17. More the merrier, eh?

[The Straight Story]

21. Do we have the guts to do something if they don't stop it?

I think that is the question alluded to by some here were alive and active back then.

The big difference between then and now is the comfort zone of people. My damned self included. Are we willing to give up jobs, that nice car, play station 3, etc, to go out and fight the powers day in and out via protests, sit ins, and so on? Or do we think such a sacrifice is not really worth it?

Back then I think more were involved partially due to the draft - you had a lot more to lose then you do now (plus the civil rights issues which were also going on at the time. I still remember the day I knew the Klan was coming to town, and I was only about 6 yrs old. And White. And I was still scared and did not like them).

If you or those around you were faced with the possibility that tomorrow your number was up and you had to go to Iraq, or go to jail, then I think many more people would be out there.

So I don't really fault this generation, they are not in the exact same boat. Their lives won't be changed over night because they have to go and fight, only those who already volunteered are in that boat right now.

So while some may have some skin in this game, most really don't.

Motivating the masses takes good leadership (which we have not always seen...) and showing them how it can/will affect them directly - enough so that they get up and do something about it.

[niallmac]

24. Good for you for making a stand. I may whole heartedly disagree but

the important thing is saying what you think and feel. If you do it
honestly and from the heart then of course some people will be
all for you and some will be all against you. Here on DU i feel more
comfortable when we are all arguing because then I know I am not
in a den of brain dead freepers.
I wanted to address the thing you said about that police state that in
comparison to today "was almost non existent.." I am a old sixties guy
and I remember the shock I had when all of a sudden on our campus
a squad of forty or so leather booted LA cops were lined up in file and rank
ready to bust our 'illegal' gathering on the quad. The head knocking
'to hell with you and your free thought' police state was alive and vibrant.

I agree with a lot of what Rangel says but if I was to lobby against the idea
of universal conscription I would feel duty bound to scream bloody murder
about the way this country victimizes it's socio-economic disadvantaged
and sends them off to die for our corporations. This to me is a national shame.

Peace dude.

[otherlander]

25. 5th rec.

I don't believe that the young people of the 60's were any better than our generation. So much of the activism was coming from people who just didn't want to get drafted, and then grew up to be corporate slave- types. Of course, there was a certain part of the population that really and truly did want to change the world, who were dedicated and stayed true to their causes. Our generation doesn't have the huge number of fair-weather activists that made the 60's so noticeable, but we do have the same small group of truly caring people that made the 60's so great. What we do obviously won't be the same- times change- but we can create something new.

[JVS]

26. To everyone who hates you right now: GO FUCK YOURSELVES

Jed's OK

[EFerrari]

28. LOL! Yeah!

:)

[Lilith Velkor]

32. Seconded.

Jed rocks the house!

[The Backlash Cometh]

29. Virtuallly free college?

I'm at the tail end of the baby boom era, and I was too young to experience the good stuff, but got to witness vicariously all the bad stuff like the Vietnam War. I'm fighting tooth and nail to keep you from being drafted. And although I benefitted with AA to get into a college, my dad paid every penny of out of state tuition. There's lots of stereotypes that need to be broken.

[ChiciB1]

31. I Agree... It Wasn't Like Anyone Got The G.I. Bill Help Or Anything!! n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

61. That was my father's era.

The benefits from the G.I. Bill were cut back even before it was eliminated altogether. I remember talking to a military man on the net, back when "Angry White Men" had not yet morphed into Freepers, and he was not happy with the pittance they received to pay for their college education.

My era was Affirmative Action.

[Gregorian]

34. I am grateful that you posted this.

Our silence, which appears to be apathy, has always been a protest.



I spent much of my life like that. I totally understand you. Even though I'm am just about to leave fifty behind me, I might as well be a gen x. I even went to college in 1986. I was more comfortable with your generation than with mine. This is a bit off topic. But I want to thank you, because I have been alone. And hearing your words brings something to me. My silent rage. My separation from a noncaring society.

I would like to see what I call common sense. After all WE have the power. We have the numbers. There are millions of us. Why should a few thousand government employees be dictating what we can do with our lives. Hell, I just saw a European movie tonight. I was struck seeing people drinking beers as they walked down the street. What the hell is wrong with America that we can't do that? What? It's like a Puritan society.

And we should be able to stop this war. And it shouldn't take the threat of drafting people in order to level the playing field, so as to wake up the rich turds who don't give a shit.

But the fact that you are posting does mean something. It's a wake up call to everyone.

I want your generation to be important. You have common sense. More than that. It's a simplicity and a sanity that the adults seem to have forgotten. Or never learned.

Tonight I find myself sitting here with an empty feeling. As though my country is a void. As if I should have been a European. A place with meaning and culture. We can have that here. If we listen.

[More Than A Feeling]

35. Gen Y here.

I have come to believe that expecting politicians to do anything without being forced to is largely a waste of time. We the People should have the ultimate power, if we have the courage, the endurance, and the vision to retake it from the elitists, the authoritarians, and the aristocrats. After all, their time is almost up. It will be our world, and we are laying the groundwork for coming into our own. We will not be denied.

Accountability is everything. If the new majority won't do what we wish, we will throw them out, and replace them with ourselves.

[smoogatz]

36. Dude. I laugh at you.

"If that describes you, I'd just like to ask you to count the blessings you had that we didn't. Like virtually free college for all qualified candidates. Or a police state that was, in comparison to today's, almost nonexistent. Or a living wage for nearly all full-time workers. Or a government that actually took note and responded when you protested. Or nutritious, non-poisoned food at regular, not specialty stores. Or a healthy small business sector in which smart, enterprising people could succeed."

You've apparently confused "The Brady Bunch" with reality. Free college? Wrong-o: if college had been free, the poor could have gotten deferments just like Cheney. No police state? Nixon created the freaking model for the American police state--and don't forget Chicago in '68, and the Kent State massacre in '70. A living wage for all full-time workers? How about widespread malnutrition among the poor? A government that took note when we protested? Right--by sending the National Guard to shoot at us. Nutritious, non-poisoned food? Ever heard of DDT? How about cyclamates? A healthy small business sector? Woo hoo! Paradise!

As for your generation's silence--time to snap out of it. There's a lot of work to be done, and us old-timers can't do it all ourselves.

[Jed Dilligan]

81. Gets under your skin, doesn't it.

To DDT, I say High Fructose Corn Syrup. Totally poisonous and pervasive in almost all packaged foods.

To Kent State, I say UCLA last week. Now the use of lethal force against the slightest gesture of defiance is an everyday occurrence. 2 million in prison and rising. I stand by my comment that the police state is exponentially larger and more powerful than it was in the sixties and seventies.

To malnutrition among the poor, I say 2 million homeless on any given night... and offer this link: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0774473.html

As for the government responding to protest, you can't have it both ways. The central claim that I am arguing against is that protest "stopped" the Vietnam war. If you don't believe that, we're in agreement, and if you do, then your comment that the government didn't respond then is rather disingenuous.

As for small business, all you've done is say Woohoo. Possibly because you can't figure out any way to deny that there were a lot more "mom and pop" stores back then--and no Wal-Mart.

[mtnester]

93. There is a HUGE difference between tasers and live ammunition

fire from high powered rifles. Rifles fired at Kent State were meant to KILL.

There are NO points scored when you compare the living to the dead.

[Jed Dilligan]

100. Four dead vs. two million incarcerated...

My point was about the size of the police state, not its lethality. Although I am sure the death toll from police brutality is much, much higher now than it was then.

[mtnester]

116. Here is my point...this was YOUR quote "To Kent State, I say UCLA last week"

and you ended that with a period.

Living versus dead.....UCLA? bad bad bad bad bad....Kent State? Worse....people died...not everyone who died was a protester.

It was government ordered execution by citizens of citizens. And you just need to leave the comparison between Kent State in May 1970 to UCLA alone because you CAN'T compare the two.

It is like comparing John Lennon to Jim Jones...not the same.

And we want you to be fired up about the injustice of everything or anything deserving. Just not making light, trivializing or brushing off as incomparable to your particular perspective every sacrifice others made ahead of you.....

And I do not take any credit for anything that happened in 1970...I was TEN...I just know when things are important, they do not become less so because time has passed and times are different.

Different generations have different methods, different problems...at some point in the future I hope you are able to argue the same point to a young adult like I am trying (probably badly) to do so now.

Life is always full circle

[smoogatz]

156. You've made my point.

Your argument is that somehow things were infinitely better in the 60's and 70's, and therefore those who stood up against the Vietnam war were no more courageous, activist or effective than your generation, which so far has stood up for or against exactly nothing. In your OP you made it apparent that you don't know what the hell you're talking about. In your response to me you've made it clear that, even when corrected by those who are better informed, you still don't get it. It's too bad--you had an opportunity to learn something in this thread and you've apparently passed. Your loss.

[kdpeters]

37. You'll have to forgive us old farts.

Every generation disparages the older when they're younger and the younger when they're the older. It's nothing personal. It's just human nature.

[noamnety]

38. you lost me at free college

My mother had a scholarship. Until she got married, then (in that order) pregnant. Housewives don't need an education, so she was booted out of the program.

Me, I'm at the very tail end of the baby boomers. I got a degree, which was expensive. I planned to go to grad school in my mid twenties, but - in the way that lives repeat themselves through the generations - I also lost my college money because I got pregnant. 20 years later, I am taking night classes, one at a time, and hope to have my masters in a few years.

People your age didn't see Vietnam or Kent State, or blacks being beaten by police for having the nerve to ride on a bus, while the president - the much beloved JFK - turned a blind eye to much of it, refusing to enforce the law. Abortions were illegal.

That time of life has been sanitized for your viewing pleasure. Life was grand if you were middle class, white, and male.

[Jed Dilligan]

43. I admit that I'm really talking California,

my home turf, where you really could get an education for about $18/semester in the 60s if you were smart enough.

As far as the police state goes... Were there 2 million people in prison back then?

[jbnow]

67. I GOT more college money because I got pregnant

Don't know how that worked for you. I got pregnant in high school, kicked out of house, thus was considered an independent when it came to financial aid, they didn't look at my parents income. My high school counselor and college financial aid officer went out of their way to help all they could.

Counselor even paid for me to take CLEP tests so I started college as a sophomore. They found/pointed me to every bit they could so I could go to college and NOT work. I was single but lived in married housing on campus. I had no car, couldn't get new clothes for me or anything, but lots of students are poor and a teenage body can carry a kid in a backpack with a couple bags of groceries in their arms for a couple miles. It was fine, I was lucky as could be.

That was the 70's. I had one competitive scholarship that itself was enough to pay books and tuition. 18 years later my son earned the same scholarship...it was still for the same amount ($1200? 1800? I forget) and was just a drop in the bucket for his costs.

As far as healthy food-we just didn't know it wasn't yet. Chemicals in fertilizers and pesticides were widely used. Heck I was in MI and along with the nutrients I gave my son in breast feeding I was also loading him up with PBBs that were accidentally mixed into dairy cow feed.

Ironic for me to say since I did get pregnant (long story) and have a baby but my generation, "Generation Jones" (1954-1965) was one of the inly ones that had birth control, abortion option and no fear of AIDS. Man, sex and death should never have to be connected.

In fact my age had it pretty easy...the pre-boomers and older boomers did the protesting, opened the doors that we just got to walk through. Didn't have to fight for rights, got to live them, no draft to avoid or enter. (Thanks to those ahead of me!)

It is harder today...with some rights going backward thanks to the far right, thanks to crazy free trade that is not free and the outsourcing that weakens unions and on and on...

But I get uneasy with generational divisions. We are part of the same flow. I know cool people and creepy people from teens to 70+. Some people from all generations have it easy, some have enormous hurdles. It's the cycle of life, a continuum...not chopped up, discrete divisions.

[Recursion]

39. What gets me is the alleged activists from my parents' generation...

sneering at us then-20-somethings and now-30-somethings who protested WTO, IMF, and WB 5-10 years ago. Like "oh, they don't really have anything to protest; we did." Oh really, grandpa? You rode the postwar economic boom your parents earned and will work me into an early grave in your upcoming mass retirement. And now that we're old enough to recognize how unsustainable your lifestyles are, you pull this johnny-come-lately card out of your ass as if y'all had done anything since 1974.

Oh, btw, to the "we were tear gassed and nightsticked" crowd in this thread, I was tear gassed in Seattle and nightsticked in DC, so don't give me that BS. We stood up and you left us hanging, so screw all of you.

[Jed Dilligan]

45. And, having been handcuffed so that my arms

were black and blue to the elbow, simply for walking down the street with no ID, I wonder how anyone can compare the COIN activities of the sixties with the quotidian oppression of today.

[Lilith Velkor]

46. They didn't have tasers and microwave weapons back then

Yet we're supposed to be the ones without guts. Feh.

[smoogatz]

51. Nope--just old fashioned billy clubs and live ammo. n/t

[Lilith Velkor]

57. We'll always have live ammo, my dear.

Just don't come cryin to me if the game of "let's you and him fight" results in you or yours getting hit.

[Bluestar]

40. Hmmmmm . . .

I think everyone else has answered your misconceptions as to what it was like to live in the baby-boomer era, so I won't pile on. I agree that there should never be a draft. I would like to live in a country that has a military for defense only and if we did not have pre-emptive wars I think that we could get by with an all-volunteer force.

I do have to comment on another misconception--as one poster pointed out it WAS the people who put a stop to the war in Vietnam. We did "take to the streets" and I have felt that today's young people would do the same if their lives were affected by the draft like our lives were. If you think that everything is OK just because the Democrats won the last elections and that it is up to Congress, think again. Politicians react to only one thing--that they won't be elected the next time around. Plus, we have the added problem of having a madman in the White House. Public pressure to end this war is more important than ever.

I wish you and your entire generation well--I wish that none of you ever had to step a foot on Iraqi soil or be shot at or put in harm's way. Peace.

[Jed Dilligan]

48. I think that feeds the Big Lie...

that the Left caused the "loss" of Vietnam, which we celebrate as "ending the war..."

The Leftists who stopped the war in Vietnam were called the Viet Cong, and they did it by winning.

The disapproval rate for Iraq is much lower now than Vietnam's ever was... Do politicians care? Apparently not.

[Bluestar]

49. I disagree

Check it out--I lived it! The war had become so unpopular that Nixon had no choice but to end it and that is what changed. We were bombing the hell out of Vietname for years--the Viet Cong sent messages to LBJ years before that they would come to the negotiation table, but he (like Bush) was too stubborn and afraid of being wrong to do so.

[Jed Dilligan]

50. As far as I'm aware, though

it was the success of the Tet offensive and not the protest movement that turned Americans against the war. Furthermore, we're already at the same level of approval that Vietnam had sunk to when the pullout began.

[smoogatz]

55. It was a lot of stuff. Tet was in '68, the war didn't officially end

until 1975. The draft was reaching deep into society as US casualties mounted, and then there was the national horror of Kent State (1970), in which four students were killed and nine others were wounded (a friend of mine among them--a paraplegic ever since)--almost all innocent bystanders. Colleges and universities all over the country were being shut down by violent student protests, in an era in which the bulk of the population was under 25. The country was as divided and incendiary as it's been since the Civil War--those who favored the war didn't just type little essays about it; a lot of them went out and busted heads, or ratted out protestors to the cops, who were in turn actively infiltrating and spying on anti-war groups. What those students did was courageous indeed--get busted at a protest, get kicked out of school, lose your deferment and go to Nam. There's no need to denigrate what they did in order to make yourself feel better about your generation's relative inaction.

[Bluestar]

56. Tet Offensive was Jan-Feb 1968; US finally pulled out in 1973

The horrendous Tet Offensive woke Americans up and the protests began. US started negotiations I believe in 1969 but didn't completely pullout until 1973. What changed during that time was the mood of the public. Those who were indifferent to the war (no one really supported it by this time) started to see the light from the protesters and public opinion shifted.

[Warren Stupidity]

41. I am speechless with rage at those here supporting the draft.

Half of them are manipulative idiots who think 'it will never happen', to them it is a clever move. Too clever by half in my book. The other half actually believe that a draft would be a good thing, have determined that for the first time ever in our history, the draft would fall evenly on the rich and powerful, and that only good wars would be fought by wise men. What reality do they inhabit? Not mine, not yours.

I stand with you Jed. Hell No. No Way. No Draft. From my memories of turning 18 in '69, to the fear of the knowledge of the power the state had and used, to your real fear right now in '06, we stand together you and I. My family stands with yours. Hell no. We Won't Go.

[Mr_Spock]

59. Pass the joint man

:smoke:

[BlueStater]

42. What is this post in respone to?

I'd like to read the original thread.

[Hamlette]

47. there are other reasons to favor the draft

and, 24% your generation showed up. 60% of mine. (Boomer).

Seems saying "changed the outcome considerably" is a bit over the top.

None of us has all the answers. Your generation or mine. We'd love to welcome you to the battle and hope that someday more in your generation will actually participate.

[Ready4Change]

53. "The Man" loves your apathy.

Making excuses for being apathetic is making excuses for being a sheep.

In 2002 I saw this war on terror devolving into the pointless debacle we have today, and knew it would lead to a draft. I got off my ass and attended a protest even though I knew I'd be beyond the age range for such a draft.

Now, listening to you make excuses, I wonder if I wasted my effort?

Baa.

(Yes, that's a bit harsh. Maybe it's because I couldn't afford to attend my "Free College.")

[Jed Dilligan]

54. The government doesn't care if 10 million people march or not,

they just don't give a shit.

[Ready4Change]

60. More excuses.

How you gonna stick it to the man? Play some Wii or PS3? That'll get those NeoCons quivering in their jackboots.

They WANT you to feel powerless, dude. It seems its working. You seem convinced there's NOTHING you can do. Nothing!

Pure music to any dictators ears. The orchestra of a cowed populace.

This is why I'm convinced a draft WILL happen. People either dream it can't happen, or don't give enough of a crap to stand up and stop it.

[Hippo_Tron]

71. Your argument is about as mature as me saying

Go smoke some pot you old hippie. Wii and Playstation 3 have nothing to do with this.

[Ready4Change]

145. Fair enough.

You voted in 2006 and changed the election.

You made a statement by not voting in 2004 (I assume) and Dubya and the Republicans claimed they had a mandate for continuing on, and they did.

(If you were of voting age) In 2002 they drew the same conclusion, and we went to war.

(If you were of voting age) In 2000 they drew the same conclusion, and began laying the groundwork for war.

Maybe the Democrats will do as you wish. Maybe they won't. But had you voted two, or four, or six years ago, rather than making a "statement," we might actually know what happened by now.

Elections are won by millions of people who all made a seemingly ineffectual, individual, gesture. Elections are lost by millions of people can't be bothered to even do that. Thanks for giving it a shot this time around.

[omega minimo]

66. JD, before Reagan's Big Lie Era, folks knew We Are The Government

That's a big difference b/w the various generations-- since Reaganism took over, the sense of "we're all in this together" as a nation, a Commonwealth, with a pubilc Commons, has been lost. Thom Hartmann talks about this. He has been pointing out that one possible outcome (and reason some are favoring it) of a renewed draft (it went away until the early 80's, people since then have had to register) is a return to a sense of "we're all in this together."

That lost sense of connection as members of a nation is important. The image you have of past American life included a sense of responsibility that went with the benefits. Without it, generations of people can be convinced to disempower themselves and believe that "Our silence, which appears to be apathy, has always been a protest" and "My non-votes were votes against the farce that this country is a democracy, and the fiction that I am governed by my consent."

Silence is not protest. Non-votes are not votes.

Interesting thread. Good comments and it's not necessary to see it as a confrontation b/w generations, even as many here have pointed out that the vision of the past in the OP is a bit skewed and romanicized. Some of us in between are interested in better understanding the Boomers who tuned out for a couple decades while the nation was disassembled and the Gen XYZ who thought that opting out was some sort of statement.

[elehhhhna]

88. NO SHIT! WHERE WAS THIS FREE-ish COLLEGE he's blathering

about?!!

The only offer for Free College I got was a heavy recruiting press from West Effing POINT, and sorry, America, no WAY was I going to be an experiment in their first co-ed graduating class, thankyouverymuch.

My Dad was TERMINAL when we filled out the financial aid forms in '76 and the fact that he was a low-middle income father of four who could no longer work and never would return didn't mean JACK. JACK!

[Jed Dilligan]

92. California

UC was less than fifty bucks a year.

[elehhhhna]

97. Too bad I was in Chicago, Jed.

[stevedeshazer]

58. Your post is very insightful. K & R

Keep standing up.

Sincerely,

A Baby Boomer - damn right we have the guts.

[McCamy Taylor]

63. You have a right to feel abused. Rangel wont draft you but Cheney would

in a heartbeat if he could come up with a good enough excuse for an invasion of Iran which is next on his wish list of oil producing countries to attack. Then, Venezuela after that.

Lucky for the twenty-somethings in the US, the Pentagon learned from Viet Nam that an involuntary military is very bad for them. They got things like Mai Lai and draft dodgers and a huge anti-war movement and soldiers who should never have joined the military. So, the army is on your side.

Believe it or not, the Democrats are also on your side. The people you should be watching out for are the Neo-cons. If they ever get back into power and it is ever 2002 again and they have the American people convinced that someone has WMDs--or that it is Gulf of Tonkin or that we have to remember the Maine--the draft will begin ASAP.

BTW, I am one of a small number of Americans who is currently subject to the draft. Doctors and nurses can be drafted anytime at the will of the US military. All they have to do is declare that they have a need. No age restriction either.

Shame on everyone here who is doing this "us vs them" number with people just because they happen to be twenty years younger or twenty years older. Nobody here "won" because their demographic turned out a higher percentage of voters, same as nobody here wins because their demographic makes more money and has more clout with the people in Congress and nobody wins because their demographic buys more products and has more clout with the people who sell advertising time. Every group has something that it dominates. People in their twenties tend to dominate popular culture. People in their forties and fifties tend to dominate the way that money is made. Anyone of any age can have an effect on the moral climate and direction of America by becoming active in social issues.

[CrispyQ]

64. I am a 1957 model &

I am grateful to have lived during the best last years of the United States of America.

Prior to '04, the last election I voted in was 1980. I voted for Carter, cuz I saw Reagan as an empty suit that could be manipulated & used to manipulate.

I was disgusted that the Iranian hostages were released on Reagan's inaugural day. I knew the populace had been played & I was disgusted that they fell for it.

I frequently wonder what course our nation would be on if Carter had won a 2nd term. New energy sources? Global warming on a much diminished scale? Peace on Earth? Ok, so I wax sentimental . . .

[Hippo_Tron]

70. If I could go back in time and change anything in this country...

The first thing I would do is prevent Bobby Kennedy's assassination. The second is get Carter re-elected by any means necessary. Reagan would've gone back to being a b-rate actor and nobody would've listened to the "conservative" wing of the GOP.

[orpupilofnature57]

129. 57 I too feel blessed , though when we were only 6 ,43 yrs ago tomorrow

we lost a huge avenue to the way things should have been ,and more importantly the way things shouldn't ,though some people might not remember ,right.http://tomflocco.com/Docs/63/BushJfkBookDepo.htm

[Nevernose]

65. Detailed response from a Gen Xer

I'd like to explain a couple of things. Please, be my guest.

I don't hate you personally because of your age or your opinions. Thanks. I don't hate you either. In fact< i'm 32 and to a certain degree sympathize with you. What I hate is being stereotyped Me, too. as apathetic or ignorant because my generation is reacting differently to this war from the way the Baby Boom generation (or a small minority of them, really) reacted to the Vietnam War. Good men and women are dying everyday. Children were and are being napalmed. It's not the DIFFERENT reaction that freaks people out, it's the lack of any reaction whatsoever. If it affected you, perhaps you'd feel differently. It seems that some members of that generation, and perhaps the "Greatest" Generation, too, loves the idea of drafting us to "wake us up" to what's wrong with the war and the country and the world. Sounds good. Nothing else has most people in out generation thinking about these things, at least not enough to actually try and DO anything about it.

If that describes you, I'd just like to ask you to count the blessings you had that we didn't. First off, I am "we." Secondly, I find it's a good policy to count my blessings PERIOD, whether or not someone else had them. Like virtually free college for all qualified candidates. My parents were still paying off their college loans when the first Bush was in college (my mother until the CLinton administration). Or a police state that was, in comparison to today's, almost nonexistent. CIA domestically spying, Alien and Sedition Acts, or a world before the ACLU. Lots of Americans have had it even worse than us. The Babyboomers didn't have it any better, they just had authorities that weren't as up to speed as they were. They're still not as up to speed with subcultures as they should be. Or a living wage for nearly all full-time workers. The living wage was higher, but so was the poverty rate. There were sharecroppers living in powerless, waterless shacks until the 70s. And the aforementioned "greatest generation" knows a hell of a lot more about hardship, protesting wars, or the draft than you or I will ever know. Or a government that actually took note and responded when you protested. When you find that government, let me know. It's never existed here in America, or anywhere else in time or space, though watching TV might certainly lead you to believe that it has. Or nutritious, non-poisoned food at regular, not specialty stores. I agree. Or a healthy small business sector in which smart, enterprising people could succeed. Thank you Ronald Reagan, may you rot in Hell.

People my age and younger never even caught a glimpse of that world. To be fair, YOU might have never caught a glimpse of that world. I have. I remember the stories my grandfather told of him being a sharecropper until he was thirty and the war broke out, and when he planted an acre of cotton in downtown Fort Worth just so he could make me pick it so I could see what bloody fingertips were like. I've been a young, unwed parent. I've stolen diapers. I've lived in the back of my truck. And I've known people far less fortunate than I was. Most of us are neither ignorant nor unaware of the way the system works and the injustices in this country. Some of us know this, at least intellectually. Many of us are intellectually lazy, however, and don't want to know anything that might upset out comfortable paradigms. Most of it we either don't know personally, don't want to know, or don't feel empathically. Think "Roman Empire" outlooks. We have Ipods and PSPs to inure us, however. We bear the brunt of the state's most oppressive policies. We all bear them, and we all bear them equally. The Man is being no less oppressive to us than they are or were to older people. Our silence, which appears to be apathy, has always been a protest. Silence is not a protest. A PROTEST is a protest. Silence is a cop-out.

I am one of an apparently growing number of members of the X- and Y-generations who have begun to support the Democratic party in response to the ascendancy of George W. Bush. It was not ignorance or apathy that prevented me from supporting the party before. My non-votes were votes against the farce that this country is a democracy, and the fiction that I am governed by my consent. I think you may be right about the reason for the apathy, if not the reason for the not voting. We are our parents children, and the generation before us was "post-modern." Cynical. It's up to us to be different. A Marxist view of history would teach us that thesis + antithesis = synthesis. While his political philosophy has not yet been prooven to be successful, the historical philosophy is generally accepted as rock solid. It's not time for people to stop blaming Gens X and Y, it's time for us to step up and make something different, and better, than what came before.

More of us showed up this election than ever before. I sure hope so. Our participation probably changed the outcome considerably. Well, not in my state, but I sure hope so nationwide. But now it's up to the party to show us that our voices were heard. It is not up to us to "wake up" and stop the war. It is up to the new majority in Congress to force Bush out of Iraq using budgetary pressure. That is the ONLY thing that will work. HELL FUCKING YES. Claiming it is the apathy or ignorance of young people, or any people for that matter, is just blame-shifting by the politicians who DO have the power to stop it. It's not blame shifting. We ARE apathetic. Denying that will not make us any less apathetic.

Question is, do they have the guts? No. They're politicians, and, almost by definition, have no guts whatsoever. It's not up to them. It's up to us, you and me, to hold them to the fire.

Thanks for reading this far. I think you and I probably agree on the direction, even if we disagree on the fine points.

[Generator]

101. Thanks

~Silence is not a protest. A PROTEST is a protest. Silence is a cop-out.

I knew I could find a Du'er I agree with. But had to wade through much hand wringing and congratulations (for what? being alive now the worst time in history, according to the op, it's SO HARD to live now, it used to be EASY, cry him a river. If he was in Iraq, I'd cry him a river as those really do have it hard)

Proven by even the TALK of a draft. The mouth opened. Who knows what would happen if a draft happened? WOW.

HOW much has the war affected him? ZERO. Zero, and more zero. His daily life is not affected one whit. If it was, he could not possibly be silent. How can you be silent when a crime is being committed? If you are, you are nothing but an accomplice to the crime. Much as many here DESPISE Hillary Clinton for her continued support of the war, or even the time it has taken Kerry to disavow the "vote for the war."

I have noticed a big tendency in the young to blame everyone that came before. The sixties, what a fucking joke they say. YOU didn't stop the war he says, you had nothing to do with it. It was the Viet Cong. It doesn't matter. What matters is that if you are alive and you see something that is so fundamentally wrong-that someone is dying in LIEU of you dying, that you stand up against it.

I was a child in the sixties, but I have actually read something about the social and political dynamics of the time. There were actually people to admire and be proud of. The current generation?

Can't think of a one. Silence-it's a protest. WHO knew? Cindy Sheehan would be his mom, NOT him.

[Jennicut]

68. I think its time for different generations to stop blaiming each other

I am 30 years old. I was born in 1975. I am proud to be a Gen X'r. I have voted in every election that I was eligible for since I turned 18 in 1994. I am a liberal but my parents are very conservative. My Dad is into Rush Limbaugh and supports Bush. My Mom is a moderate Republican (socially liberal, fiscally conservative). Both have supported the Iraq war. Both were teenagers in the 60's. My Mom has mentioned to me that is was a scary, sad and depressing time. They had bombing drills in class and had to get under desks. Martin Luther King Jr. and Kennedy being assinated. The Vietnam War was raging and my Dad was most likey going to be drafted. He joined the army and ended up never being selected to go to Vietnam. My Dad was a moderate and voted for Carter but lost faith over the Iran hostages issue and voted for Reagan and never looked back. My Mom has always voted Republican. I love and respect my parents, they are good friends and great grandparents but disagree with them politically. They have always allowed me to disagree with them and my older brother (even more liberal than me) and I have had some lively debates with them on politics over the years. I have never stopped trying to influence them and have tried to change their minds on the issues. The other day I was with my parents at their house with my 1 and 2 year old daughters. I said "Dad, how do you feel about the Iraq war right now?" My draw dropped when my Dad said "Its time for the troops to come home. Phased withdrawl is the right thing to do." This is a guy who once said Bush was not conservative enough and Cheney was better! My Mom agreed and even watched Keith with me. She offered to watch Hannity and Colmes with me as well but luckily the girls were getting tired and it was time to go home:) My point is that change happens if you hang in there and work on people. I think the Dem victory helped liberate my parents from robotically supporting the Repubs on every single issue. Generational fighting won't help. Listening to why certain people end up the way they do does. I was heavily influenced by Bush 41's arrogance and apathy and Clinton/Gore seemed like a much better alternative in 1992 when I was 16. My parents were influenced by different things over the years. But we all agree, Iraq is a mess.

[TheBaldyMan]

69. Who hates you exactly ?

I can't think of any posts I've seen that have been critical of all young people. Maybe I've not been reading the same threads.

There's quite a few posts that condemn dumb people who don't vote, don't get involved and are not part of the solution but that is not directed at the younger generations exclusively. If a poster is a great-grandmother who thinks Bush shits ice-scream she'll get roundly condemned here.

If it's any consolation I feel sorry for kids nowadays because the world is every bit as screwed up as it always was, I'm just glad I don't have to do it all over again. There are optimistic signs that the coming generations will change things for the better. Some of the coolest DUers are under twenty-one, they might not be able to buy a beer but they can still kick ass.

[tkmorris]

72. You should have posted this thread first

Seriously. You would have saved yourself a lot of heartache. Oh even in this post it's clear you are still a bit confused, but at least your intentions were better, and your tone less strident. I can even agree with much of what you state here, though your view of what the 60's and 70's were like is a wee bit skewed.

Here's your problem though, and it's part of the problem you had in your post yesterday. Today you say: "It seems that some members of that generation, and perhaps the "Greatest" Generation, too, loves the idea of drafting us to "wake us up" to what's wrong with the war and the country and the world."

You see, that's just crap. That it is crap was pointed out to you yesterday and you simply refused to stop your ranting long enough to see it. No one wants to draft you, or anyone else, INCLUDING Charlie Rangel. You said you understood that, but yet continued on blasting this imagined "older generation" that wanted to draft you. It's a classic strawman argument, and it's intellectually dishonest for you to pose it.

Even that wasn't your biggest indiscretion though. If you inspired hatred in anyone (you didn't in me, I just pity you) it is due to comments like these: "If you old farts want to see us young people die for a cause, why not rally us to fight the government... Oh, that would be YOUR wrinkled skin in the game, and that's unacceptable...". Nice little bit of nastiness there. And you can't even accuse anyone of instigating that one; it was in your OP. You next told another poster to "dodder off". You called us "old farts", I guess you like that phrase. You accused older DU'ers of being responsible for this country you think is so fucked up and said we were willing to send you off to die because we were too old to go. You said a whole slew of worse things still, generally just bashing anyone older than you are, and in increasing extreme and ugly ways, but I can't quote those because those comments were rightfully deleted.

You acted like an ass my friend. It's really unnecessary too because I don't want a draft anymore than you do. On an idealist level. On a more practical level if they ever began trying to drag people over 25 or so into the military against their will I would almost certainly go before you did. I am a veteran, with a needed skill set, and not that much older than you anyway. You didn't offend me because I AM old and wrinkled, or any of the other nasty slurs you used, but because NO one should ever be spoken of as you did.

To be honest, I think coming back tonight and doing this mea culpa routine coupled with a "Here is what I really meant to say..." post is disingenuous in the extreme. You fucked up. You slimed an entire generation of people having an angry fit. You were wrong. I could accept an apology but I will not accept an attempt to revise history. You'll probably get away with it because I am betting most of the people reading this post will not have seen your comments from yesterday, and now that they have been deleted never will.

But I did. And you and I know better.

[habitual]

77. agreed, i too saw that thread and was shocked

by the venom this poster was spewing towards an entire generation.

Revisionism indeed.!

[Jed Dilligan]

79. Hey this ain't an apology

or a "mea culpa."

And I've suffered no "heartache"....


But I'm glad I bothered you enough to make you write an essay-length response that means nothing to me.

[westerebus]

131. Mean....

As an old fart I wouldn't mind if you were drafted. At least then you would have something to bitch about.

[Jed Dilligan]

140. Welcome to DU, enjoy your stay.

[westerebus]

152. Thank you.

Live long and prosper. So one day you too may become an old fart.

[tkmorris]

155. Damn Jed

I know you didn't offer an apology. That is the problem. After your diatribe against an entire generation from a couple of days ago you continue to be unrepentant. Your remarks on their dedication to liberal causes stand, and your nasty comments about their appearance and physical infirmities are apparently considered to be completely fair by you. That's disgusting.

Of course, I know that nothing I write means anything to you. You've ceased thinking altogether, and meaningful conversation with you has become impossible. I post my comments merely to not allow you to describe yourself as some kind of victim, to warn others of your dis-ingenuousness.

You attacked people, good people, and you did so in the manner that bullies have used since time began. Now you post this nonsense about people hating you. No one hates you Jed, unless somewhere inside you do. YOU hated THEM, and said so in no uncertain terms. It was ugly, and uncalled for, and in the end said more about you than it did about those you imagined you addressed.

It isn't about the draft Jed. No one is going to get drafted, at least not at the behest of Democrats, and YOU DAMNED WELL KNOW IT. The point was made in your prior thread, and you acknowledged the truth of it. And yet you continue to act as if that is what concerns you. It isn't. I cannot say of course what your real motive may be; perhaps you want to slime Charlie Rangel, or maybe you just have a deep seated need for attention. It ISN'T the draft though. You know full well the democrats won't deploy one.

You have a cheerful Thanksgiving though. I think maybe all of us need a holiday.

[walldude]

98. Do you have a link to the previous thead?

I'd like to see it before I respond here... Nevermind.. I found it by searching "old farts".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2762908

[AngryOldDem]

159. Bravo n/t

[AntiFascist]

73. I applaud young people who blog or post on political forums...

You have access to incredibly powerful and democratic tools that previous generations never did. We can discuss issues in near real-time and fend off many efforts at propaganda or suppression, which probably frustrates "the establishment" to no end.

Please keep in mind that anti-war sentiment cuts across all political lines and generations. Discussion and organization are key. I feel we should keep an eye out for anyone trying to create deceptive wedge arguments that don't mean much. They are often only intended to sidetrack the major efforts.

[Zhade]

74. HELL YES!

They shouldn't be gambling on waking up an already-against-the-war public with YOUR LIVES.

That's reprehensible. I understand the intent, but it's just wrong to play you like cards.

Why the hell aren't we talking about what would REALLY work, and waaaaaaaaaaaaay faster than a draft?

NO MORE ADDITIONAL WAR FUNDING! CUT IT OFF, WITH THE CURRENT AMOUNT USED TO BRING OUR SOLDIERS HOME! CONGRESS CAN DO THIS, IT'S THEIR DUTY TO CUT FUNDING FOR AN ILLEGAL, UNPOPULAR WAR!

(Then investigate, impeach, indict, and imprison the criminals who killed so many.)

How is this hard to grasp? HOW?

[Senator]

76. Impeachment will work far better than "bugetary pressure"

Sadly, cutting off funding for the war is not much more realistic a proposal than instituting the draft.

There are just too many ways to shift funding sources, even "legally." And if those get even the least bit inconvenient, this regime would relish the opportunity to fund it illegally. Heck, it would be a nostalgia trip for the Iran/contra crooks among them.

Impeachment is our ONLY moral, patriotic option.

It really IS our postitive (and peace, and progressive, and productive) agenda.

--

[Jed Dilligan]

84. I say "war crimes trial"

if we ever want the world to trust us again.

So I'm with you on the "only moral, patriotic option."

But I'm talking realistically... I don't think you can compare the Iran-Contra secret budget to the budget for this war. We're flushing billions of dollars down the toilet every month. I don't think the amount the govt. can misobtain through hanky-panky amounts to one week in this war.

[Senator]

89. Sure, but not of a sitting "president"

Impeachment must come first to absolve the American People of any complicity.

But after yes, it is our duty as signatories of Geneva that we engage in prosecutions here. It is only if we fail to do so that the perpetrators become international fugitives from justice and subject to arrest by anyone, anywhere.

And I'm talking realistically about the money too. They have the funding of our entire worldwide military presence to loot. And the Saudis will be eager to "lend" them whatever else they need as long as they can believable prop up the US Treasury as future collateral.

Don't sell them short. They can have a "coalition of the willing" overnight if they choose to terrorize the global monarchy like they did the American People. And they can "corner" any other market they want in short order to suck funds from the other classes.

--

[LWolf]

82. I don't hate anybody.

I don't think hate is productive or healthy, lol.

I also don't disagree with you. I have (2) 20-something sons. One is voting Dem for the exact reasons you outline. One has never voted, for the same reasons you outline. I don't think he'll vote on anything short of abolishing the U.S. government and replacing it with something completely different, and with people that have never served in any sort of government capacity before. He expects the U.S. to implode on its own pretentious self-important hypocrisy eventually, and refuses to participate in the machinations of politics at all.

Do I think Congress has the guts to cut off funding for the war? No. They don't have the guts to take any action that would piss off their corporate masters.

There are some in Congress with guts. Watch carefully, and see who the media, and who the Democratic Party and its voters, are promoting for campaigns. Who do they listen to? Those with guts, or those with rhetoric to appease the masses without action?

[Jed Dilligan]

83. Thank you!

" He expects the U.S. to implode on its own pretentious self-important hypocrisy eventually, and refuses to participate in the machinations of politics at all."

That's exactly me, right up to November 2000.

[helderheid]

85. Bravo. I am with you. You forgot one thing - the media was far

more fair than what we have today. They actually reported the protests. They reported the deaths of our soldiers. They reported the war.

[Jed Dilligan]

86. That's why protesting won't work today

I would extend your observations about the media to all public space. They've even eliminated PLACES where a protest will draw any kind of significant attention.

Thanks for your post, and yes, that is a very important point that I left out.

[helderheid]

87. I've been protesting but without coverage it makes little to no impact. What we DO have that they

didn't are the almighty INTERNETS! I truly feel that has made the biggest impact on the election by being an alternative news source and a huge think tank.

[marmar]

90. I'm a GenXer and I've always voted and always been involved...

We can't afford not too, because we're inheriting a real mess.

[Brazenly Liberal]

91. I'd love to count those blessings, but as it happens, they're mostly mythical.

As someone who IS a boomer, let me tell you that near-utopia wasn't reality.

I'd just like to ask you to count the blessings you had that we didn't. Like virtually free college for all qualified candidates.

Say wha'??!?!? Where was that? I had to work my ass off at two jobs to go to a state university.

Or a police state that was, in comparison to today's, almost nonexistent.

Only for those who toed the establishment line. Antiwar activists - and anyone the police identified as a hippie - got some pretty crappy treatment from police and government. You speak further on about how the the government took note and responded when we protested, but that was only after YEARS of taking note by busting heads open. It was routine stuff for antiwar people - and anyone the police identified as a hippie - to be picked up by the cops and taken to the station for questioning on a whim, sometimes left to sit a little room for hours. Teenage activists were routinely picked up, taken to the station for questioning, let go 5 minutes after curfew and then busted on a curfew violation.

Or a living wage for nearly all full-time workers.

There were plenty of working poor then, too. I know because I was one of them.

Or a government that actually took note and responded when you protested.

See above.

Or nutritious, non-poisoned food at regular, not specialty stores.

I don't know where you got this. The supermarkets were loaded with processed food and with produce that had been marinated in pesticides and herbicides then, too. In fact, in those days, most large supermarkets had a small section in one aisle labelled "Health Foods." I'm not sure when they stopped calling it that, but I suspect it had to do with too many people asking them, "If these are health foods, what are you selling in the rest of the store???"

Or a healthy small business sector in which smart, enterprising people could succeed.

I'd have to see evidence this is actually worse today. While some sectors may be suffering, others are thriving - not to mention those that didn't even exist back then. Hell, I am self-employed, making a living doing a job that didn't exist back then. With the internet, startup and operating costs for many small businesses are actually more affordable now than they used to be.

[Brazenly Liberal]

95. PS for clarification

I don't "hate" you or anyone else because of the age they happen to be. I raised two boys who as adults are very active politically, who get involved in issues, who do volunteer work, who aren't obsessed with having the latest and greatest whatever, who care about something outside themselves. They and their friends, who are similarly involved, are all the evidence I need that apathy is not the default state for the children of boomers.

[Warren DeMontague]

96. I'm supposed to hate you? Shit, I missed the memo.

No, I don't hate you.







...but maybe you can do something about the downright awful fucking music some of your contemporaries listen to?

I mean, what's with that "THUMP-THUMP-THUMP THUMP THUMP" thing at the stop light? :hide:

[Jed Dilligan]

99. I probably hate it more than you do...

I've actually had to move because of it. In the Bay Area, unless you can pay $1000+ for one bedroom, you get it all night long, every night. They fill the whole trunk of the car with subwoofers. Sometimes the soundwaves are so powerful they can knock over glasses inside your house.

Some claim it's a "full body massage" but it's really just macho territorial aggression.

[Warren DeMontague]

102. Yeah, that's for sure what it is.

At my old apartment I used to get Mexican ooompah carnival music in the parking lot outside my window every Saturday morning at 6 am. And this was when I still drank, so I was usually hung over.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgh!

Edit: With the thump thump thump people, I usually blast them back with the Grateful Dead. Man, that fucks 'em up.

[omega minimo]

105. How do you BLAST the Grateful Dead?

:wow: :yoiks:

[Warren DeMontague]

106. I guess you're not familiar with "Samson and Delilah"

If I had my way, I would tear this ol' building down.

If you've never heard the Dead tear it UP, you've never heard the Dead.

[omega minimo]

108. It all sounds like the same loopy solo over and over

:shrug:


I liked Mars Hotel tho

[Warren DeMontague]

110. Well, everbody knows the studio albums don't really do em justice.

Mars Hotel aint bad-- Unbroken Chain is sweet. That's a beautiful song.

Although I think out of the Studio albums American Beauty and Workingman's Dead are probably the best.

But, it's an acquired taste. Not for everyone.

[omega minimo]

114. Like god

:evilgrin:

[Warren DeMontague]

118. On good nights, for sure.

:evilgrin:

[omega minimo]

119. on good somethin .............................

:eyes:

[orpupilofnature57]

109. Not to mention noise pollution.

[warrens]

103. Wow, have you got a strange view of the 60s

If that describes you, I'd just like to ask you to count the blessings you had that we didn't. Like virtually free college for all qualified candidates. Or a police state that was, in comparison to today's, almost nonexistent. Or a living wage for nearly all full-time workers. Or a government that actually took note and responded when you protested. Or nutritious, non-poisoned food at regular, not specialty stores. Or a healthy small business sector in which smart, enterprising people could succeed.

Virtually none of that is even close to true. Food was of far worse quality, fresh veggies in winter were extremely hard to find, meat was of poor quality and expensive. College was not free or even particularly cheap (although nowhere near what it is today). The Police State was doing JUST FINE. The day I turned 18, two cops showed up at my door to "remind" me to register for the draft, my phone was tapped for nearly a year for political activities, and I was jailed and moved from jail to jail in an attempt to get me to implicate a friend in a "conspiracy." Unemployment was rampant, and the government was as remote and nearly as corrupt as it is today.

And except for The Velvet Underground and The Kinks, music pretty much SUCKED.

[H2O Man]

104. What you may find

is that, in every generation, there is about the same stupid, average, and smart people. Most of us are a complex combination of those things. And some people get a bit smarter with age; most simply become more experienced.

Keep fighting the good fight!

[omega minimo]

107. although conditioned responses and illiteracy have gained popularity

...............................................

[orpupilofnature57]

111. Shrub Can't be President Forever

................................

[omega minimo]

115. without conditioning and illiteracy, he never could have been.....

[orpupilofnature57]

113. Ted Kennedy and Barbara Boxer.

[orpupilofnature57]

117. Hey Jed I'm awake now , You are an example of self actuation

People that have decided to come in for the big win ,have put their egos in check and seen the ultimate connection of responsibility to our country and government, which we can criticize as a full straight up citizen, whilst harboring lust for womens feet ,but thats just me.

[nini]

120. "My non-votes were votes against the farce that this country is a democracy,"

:eyes:


Grow up. Life has not always been a bed of roses for any one generation. The stuff you say is just like the stuff my generation said of the ones' before them. There's ALWAYS something that presents a struggle to the masses. Your generation is no different.

However saying you withhold your vote as some kind of statement to the country is not only immature it's reckless. If you want to fix things you can't stay home and hope it just takes care of itself. If you do that you're no better than those you blame for getting us in this mess in the first place.

[baby_mouse]

122. Even if there's nothing worth voting for, there always something worth voting AGAINST. nt

[Jed Dilligan]

127. That would be really cool...

if you could vote against candidates without voting for any. Not sure how those votes would be counted, but it would express my political beliefs better than the current system.

[Casablanca]

121. "Our silence, which appears to be apathy, has always been a protest."

And a clearly ineffective form of protest it was. Every time a person your age protested on Election Day by staying home "in protest", Bush's political capital skyrocketed. It's one thing to not take part in the process while speaking out against it, but most twentysomethings I've spoken to about this refused to take part in the crime while implicitly consenting to it through their silence and unwillingness to do anything to counter it.

"My non-votes were votes against the farce that this country is a democracy, and the fiction that I am governed by my consent."

If you absolutely believe that, why did you vote this November? (assuming you did)

Democracy (or fascism, for that matter) isn't a binary "off/on" concept. It exists as a matter of degree, so resistance to the elements that work to marginalize it is _always_ worth it. The U.S. still is a democracy to a degree, and that degree can be increased, as the results of this election proved.

[Jed Dilligan]

123. Very simply: out of fear

I've voted in every election from 2000 on because I think Bush is an evil madman bent on starting World War Three.

I vote only to castrate him.

[orpupilofnature57]

125. You mean Castigate him?

[Jed Dilligan]

126. No, I mean castrate

In the sense of take away his power.

[Casablanca]

146. Good on you then.

I only regret that it takes a bodycount and economic disaster to bring Americans out to the polls en masse. Castrating tyrants is a cause I'm totally with.

[orpupilofnature57]

124. It's being made to feel disenfranchised ,and Dem's instill a feeling

of including, as opposed too excluding.

[Casablanca]

151. Apathetic voters disenfranchise themselves.

The feeling of inclusion depends on the line they're (both Dems and Repubs) selling at a particular time, no? Cutting taxes is a line that makes many conservatives feeling included and spoken for, even when they know it's just a line.

I'm not arguing with the feeling, but I'm saying that it's just a feeling, like apathy. For me, voting is a duty to myself and my own enlightened interests, and I do it no matter how in- or excluded I feel.

[mzmolly]

128. I don't think the answer is cutting off funding - currently.

However, Jack Murtha is now involved in a committee that will oversee funding the war, and you can bet he's there for a reason.

I have to say, I don't feel that your agenda as a "johnnie come lately" should supersede that of long time Democrats.
We all agree that the war MUST end asap, the question is how we end it.

Peace

[Jed Dilligan]

130. I will be a johnny-leave-quickly

if this Congress doesn't figure out how to stop the war.

Then, come 2008, the Party had better start talking drug and penal reform and some really serious education reform.

Of course, if you don't want me, fine. I'm already shopping for another country to live in.

[orpupilofnature57]

133. Not so fast dude ,Tomorrow is 43rd anniversary of why your sour.

but if one can see how it was going before American Fascism took hold you might want to stay. http://millercenter.virginia.edu/scripps/diglibrary/prezspeeches/kennedy/jfk_1961_0427.html

[mzmolly]

134. Really? Going back to the party that started the war are ya?

My guess is you'll find another "reason" to leave soon, if not the war.

:hi:

[Jed Dilligan]

136. I never was in that party,

and people like you are intent on driving me out of this one.

[mzmolly]

141. I think you're intent on driving yourself out.

You are a new, conditional democrat. We must not only do X, but do it in the manner you insist upon "or else." Pardon me for resenting your "my way or the highway" attitude.

As an "older" person, who's not new to the party or to politics, I can tell you a couple of things you may or may not know.

1. We as a party do not have the power to end the war immediately. That remains in the hands of our incompetent/dishonest President.

2. We will not begin our discussions with the President regarding Iraq, on the premise of cutting off funds.

3. We will leave the funding option available if Bush is resistent to bringing the troops home, but it will be an unspoken last resort. Cutting off funding would have to be done with massive public support for that particular approach.

4. You will be disapointed with Democrats from time to time like anyone would be with any party, but for the most part we are a reasonable bunch. And as such, if we stick together we will make progress. If you choose to leave because we didn't do something your way today, you'd find a reason before too long anyhow.

I understand your concern and I am not attempting to belittle.

[Jed Dilligan]

142. I just skipped steps 1 and 2

because I know that Bush won't play ball.

As to 4, I don't expect EVERYTHING to be done my way... But not even talking about the War on Drugs, for instance, or continuing to push "free" trade and workfare, are so anathema to my principles that I still can't consider this "my party." For now, it's a marriage of convenience.

[mzmolly]

144. Marriages of convenience

generally result in divorce.

"BRING EM HOME!" On this we agree.

Peace to ya.

[orpupilofnature57]

132. Leave ,don't convey don't explain and don't Advise just fucking leave,

[mzmolly]

135. Unfortunately the congress doesn't get to decide when we leave.

But, leave we must - I agree.

We can decide to underfund an already strapped military of course. But, if my son/daughter were in Iraq when Dems cut funding, I might feel differently than many here who shout "cut funding now!"

[orpupilofnature57]

138. Thats why Impeachment isn't a radical ,but pragmatic solution.

[mzmolly]

143. Impeachment takes time and two thirds of the Senate, if it is to result in conviction/

removal from office. That would not happen anytime soon. The reality is that we need Bush to bring home the troops if it's going to happen in the next two years.

[orpupilofnature57]

158. Like I said Pragmatic, unless you got a way to sway his dog?

[puebloknot]

148. Adequate funding exists...

...according to Dennis Kucinich, to fund a measured deployment from Iraq, protect the troops, turn Iraq over to U.N. control, with no need for any further funding.

I agree that I would not want anything done to put our troops in even more harm than they currently are!

I'm just the messenger, but I trust Dennis Kucinich. THe only way we'll end this war is to stop enabling the war mongers with more and more money. We need it here at home to take care of the wounded veterans who have been fortunate enough to return from Iraq.

Another meme is out there now: If you support cutting off funding, you're not supporting the troops! Measure that against all the other lies we've been told!

[mzmolly]

150. But the congress can't turn the matter over to the UN.

And the UN has said they don't want to be responsible for Iraq. I too like Dennis Kucinich, but he seems to forget a few things.

[puebloknot]

154. If we cut off funding and show definite signs of withdrawing...

...the situation with the U.N. might be different. No one wants to clean up our mess, but we're going to have to stop paying and creating more problems in Iraq, or we truly will be there indefinitely. I fear that's the grand plan, in any case!

[mzmolly]

157. And, of course if we had a President who knew diplomacy/leadership.

I am certain we will consider cutting funds, if the public demands it and if the President is his "stubborn/ignorant" self.

[Skittles]

137. WHO HATE YOU JED?

you want I should kick some ass? You sound very intelligent and informed and I'll say it again - young ones like you give this old veteran HOPE. Yes INDEED. :thumbsup:

[Jed Dilligan]

139. I got pretty hot when some DUers were

cheering the idea of a draft as some kind of wake-up call. I said things that were construed as anti-Baby Boomer, when I was really just mad at a few. I stand by my conviction that my generation doesn't NEED a wake-up call as some would argue... but I am sorry if I offended anyone who didn't deserve it.

[puebloknot]

147. I'm a war baby with a 30ish daughter.

She's in debt up to her ears for her college degree. She is much more politically astute than I was at her age. She has two step-brothers who are ripe for the picking, should there be a new draft, not to mention the sons *and* daughters of many friends. We do not support a draft, period!

I think that your generation is much more awake than some previous ones. After all, you've been nurtured on post-war America, Korea, Vietnam, and whatever the latest group of war-mongers might have in store for you. You are unable to be unaware of the fact that there are enough nuclear weapons scattered across the globe to end life on the planet -- not just as we have known life, but end it completely.

You are a generation with the ability to know what is happening any place on the globe instantly! And far too much of what you can know quickly is threatening.

No, I don't think a draft would wake you up. I hope that your generation will be able to wake up those in power who have become far too comfortable in their various slumbers!

Cheers!

Judy Barrett

[Skittles]

149. yes

I get tired of the generational blame game - it makes me wary because I was born at the height of the Baby Boom and absolutely resent being lumped in and generalized with a buttload of people - in my opinion, no generation has it easy, we all experience different things - I like the younger generations just fine. :hi:

[nashville_brook]

153. i didn't "get" the "hate" thing either... having said that

i think it's destructive for people born of whichever decade (20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, etc) to draw battle lines between each other. we NEED each other. i need the wisdom of those older than me and the energy of those younger.

i didn't see the discussion where some were saying the draft could be used as a lesson for the young whipper-snappers... that's insane, and therefore easy to refute without alienating whole generations of people.

i appreciate your honesty in explaining your past apathy... and your passion in describing a more perfect world.

lets work toward that goal together. no more apathy. no more alienation.