Is Bill Clinton a ChickenHawk?

[trumad]

I watched the O'Donnell thing on Scarborough last night and he said, after Joe brought up Clinton, that Clinton was the same as all the other ChickenHawks.

It's my understanding that Bill was against the Vietnam war....

Doesn't the definition of a ChickenHawk mean that if you're pro-war, and will not and have not served in the military, that you're a ChickenHawk?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

1. I believe he got a student deferment for college, however, he did end up eligible and got

a high draft lottery number, near the end of the conflict, so did not end up going.

I don't think he actively protested, however, after the student deferment, it appears he was prepared to be sent. MKJ

[karynnj]

10. It was more complicated than that

after gradusting from Georgetown, he was eligible for the draft and would have been drafted except he was able to persuade someone in the military to prevent that with the understanding that Clinton would join ROTC while going to grad school. Later when Clinton got a high lottery number, he blew off that arrangement with a snarky letter saying he loathed the military.

Clinton did what he had to to avoid going to a war that he did not agree with. He did not have connections, like Quayle or W, to easily avoid this. This was NOT 1966, when John Kerry entered the military - after giving a speech where he said he thought the Vietnam War was a flawed policy. This was 1969, where it was clear that the policy wasn't working and the number of deaths had soared. Both political parties in 1968 had planks in favor of ending the war. As someone who was in college at the time - every guy I knew looked for a way out. Various jobs could get you deferments as could joining the National Guard (which was not easy). When this was briefly an issue in 1992, Senator Kerry was one of the veterans who defended him.

Unlike Bush, Cheney, Rove, Limbaugh etc, Clinton was against the war. They avoided a war they were loudly and till this day in favor of. They are also adament proponents of the Iraq war. They are chickenhawks. In the 60s, Clinton was definately not a chickenhawk. During the Iraq war, Clinton, while not speaking out substantially against the war has NOT been a cheerleader - so it is a bit much to call him a chickenhawk.

[Nozebro]

13. Clinton is hardly in a position to speak out against the war on Iraq

Clinton's administration bombed Iraq for the entire eight years of his stint in the WH, and it is estimated that more than 500,000 Iraqis lost their lives due to the bombings and sanctions which his administration implemented there. The list of things done by his administration that made life imcreasingly fragile in Iraq is a long one...including not allowing needed chemicals for treating municipal drinking water, sanctions on critically needed medicines and on an on.

[William769]

17. How convenient you forget what Iraq did to Kuwait.

:eyes:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

14. Thanks, so much for clarifying. I was working from my faulty memory, which

only retained a couple of pieces of info. :-)

MKJ

[itsmesgd]

2. the first problem...

is that you have got to turn the tv off immediately after keith to prevent yourself from being subjected to joe. plus, joe likes to talk out of both sides of his mouth at the same time. he has even mocked some office holders for quitting their office to run for a higher office, when he just up and quit right after an election. he's a world class flake and a perfect fit on the schizo-msnbc.

[Bridget Burke]

3. No.

Hawks supported the War in Vietnam--mostly, the older guys. Doves didn't.

Chickenhawks were young guys who supported the War but had better things to do than fight.

I was a young adult back then & remember it well.

[lapfog_1]

4. Yeah, you'd kinda half to be a hawk to be a chickenhawk.

As far as Vietnam, I believe that Bill was pretty much anti-war. As president, he was pretty middle of the road, using military action when needed (though even he regrets not doing anything for Rwanda) and not getting into a major conflict. Sometimes his light touch could be criticized, like the use of forces in Somalia, but then our intel was faulty AND there were plenty of tactical mistakes on the ground (for example, in the famous "Black Hawk Down" incident, the order to kidnap the warlord had already been leaked all over the place before the local commanders made their move AND the need to kidnap him had already been reversed). Clinton got a lot of blame for that, some of which was deserved for the white house control of the ground commanders, but a lot of which was not (there should have been any number of officers cashiered from the military over that event).

Anyway, Clinton does not fit the definition of a ChickenHawk.
OTOH, Hillary might well be a ChickenHawk (or at least could have been in the run up to the invasion of Iraq).

[Bucky]

8. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Somalia a commitment inherited from Poppy Bush?

All presidents end up using the military some way. If Kucinich were president, someone on this board would end up calling him a militarist, too.

[Captain Hilts]

11. Yes. nt

[madrchsod]

5. he was against the vietnam war

he did write to his draft board explaining his reasons why he should not be drafted. chicken hawk? i don`t think so since he was not involved in the planning or execution of either the vietnam war or the two iraqi wars.
what he did do was put together a force that ended the genocide in the balkans which george the first refused to deal with when the Serbs started it.
after 6 years the only thing the republicans have to is to call clinton names? no wonder the american people want a change in dialog

[sarge43]

6. Essentially that's it, but I'd refine it a bit more

Regardless of service, a chickenhawk is someone who is indifferent to the enormous cost of war. It really isn't a matter of military service; it's intelligence, imagination and empathy. FWIW I consider Bush a chickenhawk while Clinton isn't.

[acmejack]

7. Clintyon dodged the draft.

Used influence to evade be called up, used every sort of manipulation in order to avoid beiong drafted. He led Anti war rallies in England. He wasn't a chicken hawk, just a chicken.

http://www.1stcavmedic.com/draft.htm

[HereSince1628]

9. Yes, dodged draft and then he did send troops to the Balkans.

Personally, I think he is somewhat vulnerable to this charge, although he is in no way as hawkish as Bush or Cheney.

[BOSSHOG]

15. I'm not familiar with him "dodging the draft"

He was never AWOL. He was never guilty of not reporting. Was never a criminal under public law and did not need nor was among them who received a pardon from President Carter in 1976 for "dodging the draft." Clinton wasn't drafted so how could he have dodged it?

[HereSince1628]

16. Well, here is the story...

In the autumn of 1969, Clinton entered the draft but received a high number (311) and was never called to serve -- however, Clinton made every effort to avoid the draft prior to entering it.

First, Bill Clinton received education deferments while at Georgetown and Oxford (where he helped organize demonstrations against the war). Second, Clinton attempted to avoid the draft for four years by enrolling, but never joining, the Army Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC). Clinton had enrolled in the ROTC hoping to avoid military service for four years, but, wanting a future in politics, had a change of heart and entered the draft.

In December 1969, safe from the draft with his high lottery number, Clinton changed his mind about joining the ROTC program and wrote a letter to the director of the ROTC program thanking him "for saving me from the draft" and regretted misleading him by not revealing the extent of his opposition to the war. The letter was leaked by the Pentagon to ABC news early in the 1992 fueled criticism of candidate Clinton's character.

Later in the 1992 campaign, it became known that Clinton's uncle had attempted to get Bill Clinton a Navy Reserve assignment during the Vietnam war. Clinton said he didn't know anything about it to the press on September 3, 1992 but a day later admitted that a former draft board member had informed him of his uncles' attempt several months before.

. . . . . . . . . . .

To me this isn't really much different than Cheney's draft dodging deferrment taking--clearly it is not criminal like going AWOL.

[ProfessorGAC]

19. Not Much Different? Really?

I would think they are polar opposites. One of those people supported the war vocally, and did everything he could to avoid going himself, albeit legally. The other was fully opposed to it, openly so, and took every legal means to avoid serving in a conflict he believed was a mistake.

And you think they're not much different? How?
The Professor

[HereSince1628]

21. Measuring along the dimension of taking or not taking deferrments.

If you opine that invoking motivations for taking deferrments is useful and demonstrates Clinton dodged the draft in a more honorable way then Cheney, fine. You are entitled to do so.

Certainly the level of resolution used to parse "dodging" when applied to the problem largely defines the possible outcomes.

But by that same token, I also understand why some other folks don't/won't.

Some folks, don't/won't attempt the development of diacritical parsing rules in order to arrive at characterization of two or more sub-categories along a spectrum from good/honorable draft dodging tp bad/dishonorable draft dodging. They find sufficient differences for their needs along the more superficial dichotomy of having dodged the draft or not having dodged the draft.

Setting the level of resolution is always an interesting and important component in a discerning judgement, but it is somewhat arbitrary. Consequently, I maintain Clinton remains somewhat vulnerable to the question of his chickenhawkishness because I recognize that conclusion depends on the resolution employed in arriving at that judgement.

[ProfessorGAC]

22. Fair Enough

But, to do the level of rhetorical analysis you're doing, it needs to be pointed out (nitpicking, if you will) that Clinton would NOT be vulnerable to the "chickenhawk" label, because he did not support the war he "chickened out of". He might be vulnerable to being called a chicken (which is debatable from both poles), but not a hawk.

And, he was not even hawkish during Kosovo, because he took every logical and workable diplomatic route to avoid war. Hawks do not see war as a last resort. They see it as an equal option from step one. No?

So, he avoided the draft. But, he can't be accused of being a "chickenhawk". Other than that nit, we're in general agreement. Just some details we see a bit differently.
The Professor

[trumad]

25. Perfect...

and exactly the way I think of it...

[HereSince1628]

26. Well, I think there is probably some problem with "chickenhawk," too

And all this is undoubtedly explanatory to why contracts often begin with an article defining the use of terminology within the document.

[BOSSHOG]

12. He shared the "lead" of some of those British Anti-War Rallies

with Father Richard McSorley of Georgetown Faculty. Father McSorly survived the Bataan Death March. Clinton was not spending his College days cavorting with the likes of cheney and I believe its fair to say he was on the right side of the Vietnam Issue.

[mntleo2]

18. What Bridget Said ...

... I also remember that time well, and it took a great deal of courage to stand up against the war. Young men were being disowned from their families and sometimes had to make a choice to go into the service and keep contact with their families (Mom and Dad who most likely participated in WWII and thought Viet Nam was a just war) or face the possibility of prison and then have to leave it all behind and go to Canada to make a new life. Yes you might be afraid to die in the jungles of Viet Nam, but what richness would you have in your life if you lose everything familiar at home and have nobody? Not an easy choice!

Clinton was a poor boy and had little "influence" to peddle to some impressed congressman, so he used his brain to excel in school. In this way he could be considered a "waste" to send him to the war front along with other poor kids in his social class. He protested against the war, he did not support it. He was far different from any elitist chickenhawks who are gun ho for war ~ just so long as we send the poor folks and nobody connected to the supporter. Those supporters for the war were the chickenhawks, not Clinton. I am no Clinton fan, but I will tell you, he has more honor in his little finger than ALL Rethug chickenhawks put together!

M<y 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[xchrom]

20. being against a failed war -- like viet nam -- we were beat --

doesn't mean you are against the use of military intervention in every case.

to clinton -- the use of the military must always be surgical -- have a limited use -- have a definable beginning, middle and end.

what he isn't is someone who went awol.

the trap he doesn't fall into is the trap that people fall into when an empire is failing -- believing in your own invulnerability.

your own inherent rightness.

he is too self questioning for that -- and that's what makes him the right leader for certain adventures.

and oh so very bad for some others.

[zreosumgame]

23. you are correct

[jumpoffdaplanet]

24. He protested the war

So not a chickhawk.