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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 08:53 AM
Original message
U.S. airstrikes reportedly kill three Iraqis, including six-month old infant - What are we doing??!!
US air strike kills three in Baghdad: officials

Nov 21, 2006 — BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A U.S. air strike in Baghdad's Sadr City district killed at least three people on Tuesday when U.S.-led forces mounted their latest raid in the hunt for death squads and a kidnapped U.S. soldier, Iraqi officials said.

Iraqi Health Ministry spokesman Abdul Ahdi said the dead included a six-month-old infant and that up to 50 people had been wounded. Other Iraqi officials put the number of wounded at 15.

The Interior Ministry said U.S. and Iraqi forces raided the sprawling slum suburb of about 2 million at 5 a.m. (0200 GMT), sparking clashes with militiamen loyal to Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr.

The U.S. military said it was checking the reports.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2669537



Mindless Escalation In Iraq
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2766211&mesg_id=2766211


http://journals.democraticunderground.com/bigtree
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. We are in the process of getting our oil back from those ragheads
What about that don't you understand?:sarcasm:
Seriously, that IS what we are doing.
When will people wake up to that horror? I wonder how many Iraqi's we get to the gallon?
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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. the same thing we've been doing
since this homicidal maniac stole the presidentcy killing whoever the fuck they want.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. You are entirely incorrect
To say that the Junta is "killing whoever the fuck they want" implies that they are giving a damn as to where the bombs land. It would be more accurate to say that they don't give a rat's ass about who they kill as long as people die.
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Kelly Rupert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. If they wanted to kill civilians
the death toll would be many orders of magnitude higher. The United States has horrifying military capacity, especially as regards air power. This is nothing.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. They don't WANT anything. They just don't care who dies.
As long as Iraqis are being killed by American munitions, the Junta is happy.
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Kelly Rupert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. If death of Iraqis makes them happy,
Edited on Tue Nov-21-06 09:30 AM by Kelly Rupert
why aren't we carpet-bombing? They're indifferent, not pleased.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. they are violating the Geneva convention protocols which prohibit such actions
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/93.htm

Article 57: Precautions in Attack

1. In the conduct of military operations, constant care shall be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects.
2. With respect to attacks, the following precautions shall be taken:
1. those who plan or decide upon an attack shall:
1. do everything feasible to verify that the objectives to be attacked are neither civilians nor civilian objects and are not subject to special protection but are military objectives within the meaning of paragraph 2 of Article 52 and that it is not prohibited by the provisions of this Protocol to attack them;

2. take all feasible precautions in the choice of means and methods of attack with a view to avoiding, and in any event to minimizing, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects;

3. refrain from deciding to launch any attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated;

2. an attack shall be canceled or suspended if it becomes apparent that the objective is not a military one or is subject to special protection or that the attack may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated;

3. effective advance warning shall be given of attacks which may affect the civilian population, unless circumstances do not pemmit.

3. When a choice is possible between several military objectives for obtaining a similar military advantage, the objective to be selected shall be that the attack on which may be expected to cause the least danger to civilian lives and to civilian objects.

4. In the conduct of military operations at sea or in the air, each Party to the conflict shall, in conformity with its rights and duties under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, take all reasonable precautions to avoid losses of civilian lives and damage to civilian objects

5. No provision of this article may be construed as authorizing any attacks against the civilian population, civilians or civilian objects.
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Kelly Rupert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:31 AM
Original message
You couldn't make any legal case that they were being irresponsible.
The civilian death toll per sortie is historically low.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
16. There's no venue. If there was we could certainly make the case,
in concert with the numerous other offenses, beginning with the invasion.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
17. The civilian death toll is underreported by Bush
However, is 1 million the magic number?
Because we are over halfway there. Or are you one of those apologists that disclaims the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Columbia University School of Nursing and Al-Mustansiriya University in Baghdad report?
http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2006/burnham_iraq_2006.html
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Kelly Rupert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. Of course not.
That study is most likely completely valid. However, the vast majority of deaths have occured as a result of the ongoing civil war, with quite a few more caused by insufficient living conditions as an unintentional byproduct of the war. While those are reprehensible, they're not a result of targeting of civilian areas by US forces, and thus aren't germane to the discussion of whether or not we're committing a war crime by using air power in civilian areas.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. So we split hairs
and decide that these deaths are caused by the ongoing Civil War (that our presence precipitated).
And the insufficient living conditions--contaminated water, no electricity (that our presence precipitated).

Are you familiar with the rule of law that states if someone jumps out the window and gets shot on the way down, it is murder and not suicide?

This is the same thing.
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
19. Oh yeah? Says you and what Court of International Justice?
I've got a news flash for you. A "legal case" can ALWAYS be made. Whether it will succeed or not is up to a court, in this case, a war crimes tribunal.

How can you claim the "civilian death toll per sortie is historically low". Show me ANY statistics compiled by any source, let alone a reliable neutral source documenting your overreaching statement. I'm talking detail, i.e., Pilot Smith fired 3 rockets. Rocket A killed 10 documented terrorists and one child; Rocket B killed 6 insurgents and 2 civilians, Rocket C . . . etc. How easy it is to claim all dead bodies found following an attack as "insurgents". And how easy to dispute those claims by pointing out the lack of proof.
"excessive" loss of human (civilian) life is a subjective concept. The Geneva Convention makes no exception depending upon the number of civilians killed/wounded.
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Kelly Rupert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. So the sum of your case that
Edited on Tue Nov-21-06 11:49 AM by Kelly Rupert
we have committed war crimes is
1. You can make a case about anything (obviously by "couldn't make a case" I implied "couldn't make any legal case that wasn't a complete joke")

2. Prove we didn't. (With the burden of proof being a no less than a casualty report for every round fired, with a further caveat that you demand proof of the identity and actions of every casualty.)

3. "Excessive" could mean anything.

Now, I might be crazy here, but I'd say that isn't really a case worth pursuing.
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Again, you provide not a SINGLE fact to support your sweeping statements
that "the civilian death toll per sortie is historically low".

Would that be the "sorties" dropping the Bomb on Hiroshima?
Would that be the Blitz of London?
Would that be the bombing of Dresden?

Was the Dresden bombing a war crime? This is still being debated in the German parliament as recently as last year.
(See Wikipedia article on Dresden, portions below)

The nature of the bombing of Dresden has made it a unique point of contention and debate. Arguments for and against the bombing being a war crime come from all across the political spectrum and are supported in a variety of ways.

Günter Grass, the German novelist and Nobel laureate for literature and Simon Jenkins, the former editor of The Times, have both referred to the Dresden bombing as a war crime.<61><62> The historian Max Hastings said in an article subtitled, 'the Allied Bombing of Dresden', "I believe it is wrong to describe strategic bombing as a war crime, for this might be held to suggest some moral equivalence with the deeds of the Nazis. Bombing represented a sincere, albeit mistaken, attempt to bring about Germany's military defeat."<63>

Dr. Gregory H. Stanton, president of Genocide Watch, wrote: Nazi Holocaust was among the most evil genocides in history. But the Allies' firebombing of Dresden and nuclear destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were also war crimes and, as Leo Kuper and Eric Markusen have argued, also acts of genocide."<64> Frank Chalk and Kurt Jonassohn write in their book "The History and Sociology of Genocide" (page 24) that " definition of genocide also excludes civilian victims of aerial bombardment in belligerent states. In this we differ from Jean-Paul Sartre and Leo Kuper."<65>

Neo-Nazi politicians in Germany promote the term the "bombing holocaust" or holocaust of bombs to describe the Allied aerial bombings, especially for the Dresden raids.<66><67> Holger Apfel is the leader of the far-right National Democratic Party of Germany (German acronym NPD) in Saxony and a member of the Saxon Landtag. In a speech to the parliament of Saxony on January 22, 2005 Apfel said that Allied bombing of Dresden was a "Holocaust of Germans". This was said under parliamentary immunity but Udo Voigt, the chairman of the NPD, repeated the allegations outside the parliament where he was not protected by parliamentary immunity.<68><69> Many German mainstream political opponents consider the NPD's use of firebombing as an attempt to advance neo-Nazi causes by exploiting the intense sentiment surrounding the bombing - not only to win votes, but also as propaganda to place Nazi crimes in a more relativist context and show a moral parity between the Allies of World War II and the Axis. Some Germans had considered the term a violation of German law which forbids Holocaust denial, but in April 2005 the Hamburg public prosecutor's office decided that Udo Voigt's description of the 1945 RAF bombing of Dresden as a "holocaust" was a constitutionally protected exercise of free speech since defamation of was not the prime aim of the argument. Hannah Cleaver writing in the Daily Telegraph makes the point that "Strictly speaking, the word 'holocaust,' which comes from the ancient Greek for 'burnt', might seem apt for Dresden, much of it immolated by the fires started by the RAF's incendiary bombs. But its primary meaning is now so closely linked to the Nazis' treatment of the Jews that such etymology appears to be in bad taste."<69>

LEGAL CONSIDERATIONS
The Hague Conventions, addressing the codes of wartime conduct on land and at sea, were adopted before the rise of air power. Despite repeated diplomatic attempts to update international humanitarian law to include aerial warfare, it was not updated before the outbreak of World War II. The absence of positive international humanitarian law does not mean that the laws of war did not cover aerial warfare, but there was no general agreement of how to interpret those laws. For details on the obligations of the belligerents of World War II engaged in aerial bombardment see aerial area bombardment and international law in 1945.


THE CASE FOR BOMBING AS A WAR CRIME
Regarding the Allied decision to target Dresden, some proponents of the war crime position argue that an awareness of the devastation known to be caused by firebombing and the effect on the civilian population below was greater than that justified by military necessity and establishes their case on a prima facie basis. This goes without even mentioning that Dresden did not have a military garrison, that most of the industry was in the outskirts and not in the targeted city centre, had no air defense and the cultural significance of the city.

In addition to Stanton, the aforementioned president of Genocide Watch, Simon Jenkins contends that a mass assault against civilians simply constitutes a crime against humanity.<73> Michael Zezima, an anti-war activist and writer of a leftist contingent, supports a similar view, LIKENING THE BOMBING OF DRESDEN TO OTHER SHOCK AND AWE CAMPAIGNS NOTED FOR THEIR LACK OF REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE.<74>


In Fire Sites, German revisionist historian Jörg Friedrich posits that Winston Churchill's decision to bomb Germany between January and March 1945 constitutes a war crime, because he claims that the RAF's relentless bombing campaign against German cities in the last months of the war served no military purpose.
(Back to Wikipedia)
Countering the claim that Dresden was a significant military target, Friedrich's earlier book, Der Brand: Deutschland im Bombenkrieg 1940-1945 focuses on the evidence showing that the German forces were in full retreat by February 1945. He argues that the impact on civilians was out of all proportion to the military goal, reiterrating the argument that the Allied forces were aware of the destruction caused by incendiary bombs. Friedrich also argues that the Allies had known that future attacks were likely to cause ever increasing numbers of civilian deaths.

In Der Brand, Friedrich also suggests that by 1945, the German air defense had collapsed. As for the counter claim that the nationalization of the air-defense system, the Kammhuber Line, meant Dresden was defended, and therefore, a permissible military target, a closer examination is necessary. Given the state of the Luftwaffe after December 1944, the ability for routine air patrols was severely reduced due to fuel shortages.<81> Furthermore, the Allies were completely in control of the air,<81> and Germany had committed all of its fighters originally dedicated to air defense at the Battle of the Bulge<82> Concerning grounded anti-aircraft capacity, it took an average of 16,000 88 mm Flak shells to bring down a single Allied heavy bomber.<83><84> Thus, the meaning of "defended" is disputable - much like the phrase "war crime."

(End of material from Wikipedia on Dresden)

Typically in war, the loser gets convicted of war crimes; the winner doesn't.

Anytime a military bombs a crowded civilian area in hopes of hitting some itinerant(i.e, traveling from place to place), terrorists/insurgents I am confident, speaking as a lawyer who is familiar with the principles of international law, one can successfully argue the case that the attackers must prove they in fact not only killed the itinerants, but did so in a significantly high proportion to the civilians that were killed or injured. And if the defense argues that no one could accurately account for the deaths/injuries resulting from each bomb/rocket/missile, or prove whether they in fact killed any actual terrorists, then the defense admits it cannot prove its own case.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. of course there are several groups and individuals who HAVE made a public case for a war crimes
conviction.

You can accept their reasoning, or not, but, they are perfectly satisfied they have a case that can be made against Bush and his cohorts. To come here and challenge our posters to make that case, and finding they aren't able to your satisfaction, doesn't negate those efforts, no matter how you persist.
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Kelly Rupert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. Using air power in an urban environment,
in an attempt to subdue Shi'a militias by force.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
32. America is committing G-E-N-O-C-I-D-E.
Also known as "ethnic cleansing" those dadgum Ay-rabs off the sand that's covering the OIL. Smoke 'em out! Kill 'em! Poison 'em! Bring 'em on!
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
4. Oh, one of these days it's bound to work
If we kill enough innocent people those damn insurgents will lay down their arms and surrender.

:sarcasm:

You really have to shut down the reasoning center of your brain not to understand that this is exactly the kind of incident that has been uniting the insurgencies against us for three years now. And yet the military is still doing it and still expecting "victory".
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. If we can piss the Shiites off badly enough they will join with the
Sunni insurgency in a united effort to drive us out! This is just the US way to get the Iraqi people united for a common cause! Hurray for the US uniters!

:sarcasm: hopefully isn't necessary...
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Kelly Rupert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. The insurgencies aren't remotely united, against us or otherwise.
Disunity is rather a prerequisite for civil war. The Shi'a leaders like our presence because we're propping up a Shi'a government. The Sunni leaders like our presence because we're keeping the Shi'a from slaughtering them like pigs. The Iraqi people want us gone. The Kurds want us to stay.

Look at the death tolls from the last few months. Back a few months ago, before we started to engage the Shi'a death squads, hundreds of Iraqis were (and still are) dying a day because of the civil war. However, the US death rate was fairly low. Now, we've managed to bring that back up, but only because we've begun engaging the death squads as well as the Sunni insurgents and foreign terrorists. The Shi'a prefer to kill Sunni, and the Sunni really prefer to kill Shi'a. Everyone likes to kill us, but we're a distant second.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
5. Freedom on the march
All we have to do to win is just sit in place in Iraq and not talk to anyone and support our troops and shop.
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Astrad Donating Member (374 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
12. And the sanctimonious condemn Michael Richards
if they were little 'white' babies being killed, people would be in the streets.
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Fierce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
14. Only insurgents die,
so it must have been an insurgent.
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
15. 3 years in & the occupying army hasn't even secured the capitol city.
I don't see how the US can "gradually" reduce it's forces in Baghdad, let alone the entire country.
As some US military are brought out, those remaining will be even more vulnerable. I think the US will be forced into a quick and dirty total evacuation - like the last days of the Vietnam war - admitting defeat but unable even to negotiate a cease fire to leave.

A lot of people can recall the video of evacuation from the US embassy roof via helicopters, but don't forget that GIs throughout the country were also being evacuated by helicopter to offshore Navy ships. The retreat was so hectic, desperate, panicked and hurried that military helicopters would land on the carriers, the soldiers would jump out, and the helicopters were then pushed over the side of the ships into the ocean to make room for the incoming helicopters.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. I've said this for years. Partial, phased withdrawal puts the remaining soldiers at greater risk
especially if their job doesn't change from the joint search-and-destroy missions and policing the street, into some kind of hunker-down-and-wait mode. Even now, with the resistance swelling in numbers and confidence, their defense of Baghdad is a growing danger to our troops with over 100 killed in October alone. Greater disasters than the 2800+ killed so far loom large; larger still as Bush dicks around, looking for a plan on a piece of paper that he can wave around in front of our faces so we won't see the actual shape of the disaster he refuses to end.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
20. Some AIE guy was on C-Span yesterday talking about "increasing collateral
damage" to do in the "bad guys." Saying there would be a push even though people here wouldn't like it too much.

Disgusting. Chimp want's his war speeded up just to shove it in the Iraqi's faces and ours for losing the election.
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
21. Why would Junior care about a six month old infant? It is only
innocent as long as it is in the mother's uterus. After that, it is born into sin and it is okay with DimSon and his Monday Morning preachers to turn the little baby into collateral damage.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
24. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EdwardM Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
26. And to think a sizable minority of DUers want me drafted so I can have something like that...
on my conscience. It's all just unbelievable.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
27. Why aren't the dems doing anything about this...
I thought we had the power to stop it. Is * a dictator now?
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
28. We're making sure we don't withdraw too fast, lest chaos ensues.
At least I think that's the way I'm hearing it. :crazy:
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
29. Killing people who won't accept the
occupation or the looting of their resources and anyone else in the way.
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
33. We are saving them from Sadaam...
giving them democracy and freeing them with death...:sarcasm:
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