Things I learned driving to work (Richards and Obama)

[CatWoman]

1. This Michael Richards or Kramer or whatever his name is controversy is a temptest in a teapot. Blacks don't have the moral authority to yell racism every time a white person uses the term "nigger" -- especially when the word is used by Blacks ad naseum and even glorified thru music, music videos and comedy skits.

2. Barak Obama's number one obstacle in being president isn't because he's black. He's a smoker. Why would a self-styled "over achiever" smoke cigarettes?

Since we lost AAR, I now listen to the local black radio station during my morning and evening commute.

Just thought you guys would like to see what is being said. I agree with about 90% of the Kramer thing, but have very mixed feelings about the Obama issue. I don't give a damn about him smoking (I guess because I'm a smoker) but I don't think this country is ready to elect a black president.

[LynneSin]

1. I started a thread about the Obama-smoking 'scandal'

I'm thinking the right-wing screeds recognize that he's a viable candidate for president so they have to start vilifying him now.

Personally, I do hope Obama quits. My father was a smoker and I lost him when he was 14. I wouldn't want Obama's kids to go through what I did. However, as I mentioend in my post, a smoking President is hardly enough reason for me to not vote for him; although, I'm not on the Obama band-wagon just yet (I think he should be on the ticket but as VP only because he's still a tad bit young)

[MADem]

13. Do you mean when YOU were 14? Or was he a teenager? nt

[CatWoman]

23. I do believe Lynne meant when SHE was a teenager

I lost my mom when I was a teenager as well.

To this day I don't know if it was due to her smoking or drinking. Yet I do both. Go figure. :shrug:

[MADem]

25. I was thinking that's young to be a father, but nowadays, you never know

You see pregnant kids in the junior high school ranks all the time. I don't assume, because the minute I do, I get taught a lesson!

[LynneSin]

32. When I was 14 - he was 41

:cry:

But personally, to not vote for Obama for president (or VP) because of smoking - seriously, I'm not a dimwit here. Right-wings can't openly criticize people like Hillary and Obama because their a woman or a minority so they find these little nitpicks in hope that'll catch

[MADem]

36. Well, 41 is way too young too. And that is a difficult age for you.

I know what you mean about nitpicking...."It's not that he's BLAAAAAAAAAAAACK, it's that he was wearing an ugly tie..." or "It's not that she's a Wooooooooooooooomaaaaaaaaaan, it's that she worked on a Goldwater campaign as a teenager..."

Rather transparent, that sort of excuse-making!

[bryant69]

2. What's frusterating about Obama is that in the abstract

I think we are ready to have a black president. But if Obama runs, the Republican Party will run against him. And they will play up racial tensions and subconscious racism. They'll never ask the question of his race directly, but they will ask it indirectly a thousand different ways. Same as they will if Hillary or Pelosi runs.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Nozebro]

3. Maybe M.Richards was doing a "Sister Souljah Thing" to help sell the new Seinfeld

DVD (of the seventh season episodes) that's about to be released. Great way to generate a huge amount of free pre-release publicity. Seinfeld's appearance on Letterman (with M.R. on satellite from L.A.) added even more umph to the sales effort.

Very clever scheme.

[devilgrrl]

4. W & Laura are smokers, can they be seen as "over achievers" too?

:crazy:

[Kali]

10. Really? Link?

I totally believe Pickles is a user (of way more than just tobacco) and I think *it* is drinking as well, but didn't have him pegged as a cig user.

[MADem]

17. Laura is doc'd in the Kitty Kelley book, IIRC. NT

[devilgrrl]

27. W was a smoker in the past, wouldn't surprise if has one with a drink!

I don't have a link, I just heard it somewhere.

Doesn't matter really, FDR smoked :shrug:

[BlacknBlue in Red NC]

5. Exactly what does "ready to elect a Black president" mean?

The American public was "ready" to "elect" a draft-dodging, arrogant, do-nothing, silver-spoon-in-mouth, inarticulate president, so I guess that means they wouldn't be "ready" to elect a man who's the exact opposite of that?

[Signofthetime]

6. Horrible Topic

This is a horribly off base thread, just because the word is used in pop culture does not make the word any less offensive to Black people. The video of Richards making the despicable remarks was very disturbing, and for you to dismiss it just because a couple of kids use it in songs is just as about as naive as you can get.

[MADem]

9. I don't think so. The OP is merely repeating what she heard on the RADIO.

And then she's offering us her opinion on it.

If the subject is being discussed out there in the real world, it's fair game as a topic.

The use of "the word" is offensive to me, as it is to many, but the discussion surrounding said use isn't a waste of time. Other's mileage may vary, and they may holler "Knicker, please" when we protest, averring that the more it gets out there, the less power it has. It's important to hear their views as well.

Light is a good disinfectant. People DO have differing opinions on this matter.

Edited to change the he/his to she/her, since I'm betting CatWOMAN is a 'she!'

[CatWoman]

20. Calm down, Poindexter

I don't need a lecture from you or anyone else to tell me what's offensive to ME.

[Forrest Greene]

31. "Poindexter"

...offends me.

[CatWoman]

33. LOL

:rofl:

[Forrest Greene]

34. Zat

...a happy laugh or a mean laugh?

[CatWoman]

35. that's a happy laugh

:)

[Forrest Greene]

41. I Think I Can Boil

...my question down further. Here are three hypothetical people:

One sincerely believes all manner of ugly, stupid things about a different ethnic group, expresses those ideas, & acts on them.

Another equally sincerely believes those ugly, stupid things about a different ethnic group, but never mentions it, & treats members of that ethnic group cordially & with ostensible respect.

The last doesn't believe any of those ugly, stupid things, but is willing to use them tactically to hurt a specific member of that different ethnic group.

Are these people all equally reprehensible?

[Forrest Greene]

38. In Fact

...since I'm as over-mediated as the next guy, I've seen the TMZ video, "news" reports, comments on the Net, the apology on the Letterman show. Something struck me about the way Richards said what he said, & it brings up a genuine question on which I'd like your opinion, if I may.

From the brief video clip, it seems what happened was that audience members were at least talking during the act, & maybe directly heckling. (As a side note, if a stand-up comic can't handle hecklers better than Richards did, he should probably hang on to the day job.) Then, for whatever reason or combination of reasons — hidden seething racism, got a speeding ticket on the way to work, argument with the wife, too much drink or drugs, stage fright, whatever — the comic went over his self-control threshold & flipped out. Resenting the hecklers, he decided to try to hurt them with language he assumed would offend them. He chose racist language, & obscene language (I guess ... is "fuck" obscene anymore?) What I'm curious about is a hair-splitting point, but still, I'm curious about it.

If Richards sincerely believed in his heart some typical bigoted idea about black folks, then I'd say he qualifies as a racist, even if he never expressed those bigoted ideas. If his hope was to hurt & insult the hecklers, he could have just insulted their wardrobes or something. But he chose to taunt them by using an ugly, personally-insulting word as a weapon. That makes him a jerk, certainly, but does it necessarily make him a racist? See the distinction there?

What started me wondering about this are the other things he was saying, that incoherent, garbled stuff: "I don't know" repeatedly, "those words" repeatedly, "it shocks you, it shocks you," etc., & his overall seemingly dazed behavior. I'm not totally sure, but it seems to me a genuine racist would have been more in control. He would have thought all this stuff many times before & would speak it with more control & with uglier effectiveness. I think he would have seemed to enjoy saying it more. (My impressions come from having received myself, at various times in my life, verbal attacks based on race, politics, appearance, presumed lifestyle, etc.)

The nearest I've come to a conclusion here (it's only been a few hours &, frankly, the problems of former TV stars are not all that important to me, anyhow) is that you could call Richards' use of those words to try & hurt the feelings of the hecklers a racist thing to do — since, clearly, he used racially insulting words — but could you call him a racist, or maybe a better word is bigot, by which I mean someone who believed those ugly words to be true?

Like I say, it's a pretty hair-splitting, academic point, but the question interests me. What do you think?

[CatWoman]

46. I think when he started with the lynching comparisons

that bought out the true racist in him.

Especially if he thought those words to be true.

on another note, on another blog I post on, here is the cartoon for the day:



note the comment by the poster "Candide":

By candide

November 21, 2006 08:10 AM | Link to this

No normal person can remain entirely pure of rage at blacks. Blacks are offensive more often than not.

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/shared-blogs/ajc/luckovich/entries/2006/11/21/more_than_flaky.html#comment-823155

that really hurt because I know Candide is a liberal. But then again, on that blog, people are known to namejack.

If that really is Candide, am I to assume she is racist? That surely is a racist comment.

[MADem]

49. Good grief, all I know is that it was...... STRANGE.

You certainly don't "know" people from their portrayals on TV and film (look at the affable OJ as Hertz spokesman, and in those hysterical NAKED GUN films, and try reconciling that with the present-day guy). But having seen that Kramer guy on Seinfeld, it was a complete 180 from his "public persona"...so far out you almost think at first that the guy is having a seizure or something. Then, you realize what he's yelling and it's just...I dunno, repulsive.

It's hard to know WHAT the fool was trying to accomplish. What he ended up accomplishing wasn't likely part of his game plan, unless he was wanting to "...self-destruct in fifteen seconds, and the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of his actions!!"*

*Showing my age, again!



http://content.answers.com.nyud.net:8090/main/content/wp/en/thumb/4/42/250px-Mission-Impossible-book.jpg

[Tyrone Slothrop]

42. "Couple of kids"

I hear that word on average about 200 times a day on the street, on the subway, on the bus, etc.

The kids who live in my neighborhood use that word about every third word so I hardly think that you can legitimately claim that "a couple of kids use it in songs."

[newyawker99]

50. Hi Signofthetime!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[CatWoman]

16. you know what's ironic

a caller said the very same thing (just about) about Bush. :)

[MADem]

7. If Obama were a REPUBLICAN, he'd be able to borrow smokes from Laura, and she from him.

They could go up on the roof of the WH (with Pickles shouting to the snipers guarding the residence, "Don't shoot, don't shoot, it's jus' me, Laura, with my little Black friend!!!") and all would be well. He's a DEMOCRATIC smoker, that's the problem. Our party has a "tolerance" difficulty when it comes to nicotine that is ingested after a fire is started.

Jackie Kennedy was a butt fiend too. Even after it became unpopular. The trick is to not let anyone photograph you with a cigarette. No one talks about Laura's habit (or her daughters' either). It's a press blackout, and it's deliberate--sort of like how no one talked about JFK cattin' around in the sixties.

[station agent]

8. WTF are you talking about?

Moral authority? It was a lynching joke! How much effing moral authority do you need to compalina bout that?

[MADem]

12. Uh, read the full post. The OP is repeating what she heard on Black radio.

Don't yell at her because some talk show host had an opinion that she repeated.

[station agent]

43. I wasn't yelling

But go ahead and transfer my comments to the appropriate source.

[CatWoman]

21. I agree with you about the lynching comments

that was purely fucked up and uncalled for.

acutally, it was completely fucked up.

[Ms. Clio]

40. that's what I just couldn't believe

that, and "Yeah, that's what happens when you interrupt the white man."

That just pushed it right over the edge for me.

I also just feel that it is never appropriate for a white person to use that word. And certainly not while screaming in anger in an attempt to hurt and humiliate a member of his audience.

[Bucky]

11. "Blacks don't have the moral authority to yell racism every time a white person uses 'nigger' "

We all have the moral authority to yell racism whenever someone uses hate speech. I find the word nigger to be offensive regardless of who uses it, but it'd be silly to not distinguish between trashy slang and actual hate speech.

As for smokers... well, let's just say your ilk belong in concentration camps. :)

[CatWoman]

18. Bucky

The guy who hosts the show in the evening is a black Republican. He talked about this yesterday.

The woman who hosts the show in the morning is a black Democrat. She talked about this this morning.

And yet they both shared that same opinion about the "moral authority" thing.

[Bucky]

26. I don't care who said it. They disagreed with me and are therefor wrong.

Moral authority is not vested in pigmentation. That's just bullshit. I would agree with someone who said "people who use the word "nigger" casually have no right to object to Richards saying it." But there are plenty of people, black and white, who hate that word and won't use it. Everyone of them has an assload of moral authority to denounce hate speech. The real problem with Richards's rant is the content, of which the N-word was an integral part. The whole shtick about "if it was 50 years ago you'd be hanging from a tree with a fork up your ass" is telling someone to shut up because he's black. The nigger part wasn't necessary, but it sure gave the rant more force.

[CatWoman]

30. perhaps you should tell them that

I'm just repeating what was said.

http://waok.com/

try calling in, why don't you?

[Armstead]

14. Obama smokes?...Jeeze I'm glad he's human.

One thing about him that has kind of bugged me is that his image seems to be too good to be true sometimes.

So if he smokes, it shows that he's human and not totally perfect after all.

Of course, since I'm a smoker I tend to empathize with that.

[Hugin]

22. Well, it's nice to know I won't ever be President...

It'll save me lots of money. I guess I should cancel the bumper stickers and ads I'd ordered for
'08.

[Kali]

15. I haven't seen the video, (*&$%%$@#@UI%* ING You Tube - see my sig line)

But my understanding is that the rant was REALLY extreme and refered to lynching and "conditions" 50 years ago...I don't think it was just some white guy using the term inoccuously, if that can even be done.

[MADem]

19. It's on TMZ.com and it IS pretty frigging disgusting. He looks to be high as a kite, and not in a

nice way, either. He's pacing like a caged animal, totally wound up.

He has that aura about him similar to those off the page methheads you see running down the street half-naked, ranting and breaking things on old "COPS" episodes....

[Kali]

28. I think they have it as a You Tube at Crooks and Liars, tried the

TMZ link yesterday but it wanted me to download some AOL player - I don't think so. C & L also has the Letterman/Sienfeld?Richards apology, but that link didn't work for me this morning yet so I am going by dialog here at DU. I have no idea why I even care about this - the "entertainment" world does not usually interest me much anymore. Did love the Kramer character, though, always made me laugh.

[CatWoman]

24. Kali, what's interesting

is that they never touched the lynching comments, and preferred kept the conversation focused around the nigger comments.

[bloom]

29. I don't know why they would play it down.

Doesn't make sense to me. At any rate - those particular people are entitled to be as outraged or not as they feel like being.

It may be the most disturbing to those of us who thought that Richards/Kramer seemed like a pretty good guy. And those who prefer to think that our culture is not as fucked up as one would think it is from watching Richard's rant. (Some people might figure that it is that fucked up all the time, anyway).


P.S. I think we are ready to elect presidents who are not white men. I don't think that they have any especial authority - moral or otherwise. I think the more women and people of color of any gender in politics, the better. (And that includes president).

[KoKo]

37. I dunno, Cat. If folks started posting N***** this and N****** that here on

DU or Laura Ingraham and Annie Coulter got on and started using the N- Word...I think lots of folks would be very pissed off.

Either there's some movement starting out there to turn back time where we all start calling each other ethnic slurs and laughing and joking about it saying we've "Overturned the dreadful PC thing" and Dems buy into it or it's another effort by the Gingrich's and RW hate crowd to whip up racism once again.

I don't know what to say about Obama smoking but he'd better watch out because he's going to find it harder and harder to find places to "sneak one" given the campaign against smoking that seems to be like Prohibition revisited. :shrug:

I'm starting to worry about stirring up hate against each other in America rearing it's ugly head once again. The evil doers are always busy finding some new cause to rally their troops and Bush and Neo-Cons going down the crapper means they are searching for the new rallying point. Even immigration hasn't been able to get traction for them..so now it's stirring us up against each other with racial slurs harkening back to another dark time in America.

[hedgehog]

39. Obama's black?

who knew?

[Norquist Nemesis]

44. LOL! That's what they keep telling us

Frankly, it's not something I think about. My first thought when he was running as Senator here in IL was, "Uh-oh. They're going to be switching out that "b" to and "s" somehow." But, Obama took it head on as, "The kid with the funny name."

But, on a daily basis, the media puts up front and center the 'reminder' "OMG! He's not a white guy!" Fact is, all one has to do is see a picture of him. If the fact he's black hasn't hit me yet, I can do without the media's attention on it.

[Johnny Appleseed]

45. Better than being a whiskey drinker like Bush (nt)

[warrens]

47. A sad comment on our world

Who the fuck cares if Obama smokes? Does he chew gum? This world is just grossly fucked up.

[Buzz Clik]

48. Richards's tirade was ALL about race. Anyone who didn't see the video should watch it.

If you watched it, how could anyone not believe it was racial/racist? He told his target that decades ago, the man would have been strung up with a fork in his ass. Richards kept telling his target that he was getting what was coming for messing with a white man. Richards only needed to be wearing a bedsheet and Klan hood to complete the scene.

Yeah, this incident is overblown, but only because Richards is a has-been loser, but not because it didn't epitomize racism at its worst.