Internet gaming law gets weird (new rules for banks)

[Newsjock]

http://rose.casinocitytimes.com/articles/31215.html

By I. Nelson Rose
19 November 2006

... The U.S. House of Representatives' Judiciary Committee has approved bills by representatives Bob Goodlatte (R.-VA) and Jim Leach (R.-IA) to not only make operating any form of Internet gaming a crime, but also to try and stop the flow of money and even sever links to the sites themselves.

If the bills become law - and they have a long way to go - banks would be required to stop all transfers of money from a player to a gaming website.

... A scarier provision would also allow any law enforcement agent to get a court order requiring Internet Service Providers (ISPs) like AOL to cut all links to gaming websites. This is another questionable precedent: Any local District Attorney can force ISPs to cut access to any website he considers dangerous.

An additional element of craziness has been introduced: Rep Robert Scott (D-VA) proposed an amendment to fine criminally anyone who merely makes a bet online. Scott may have been trying to point out Congress's hypocrisy in only going after operators. But other members of Congress are now declaring that if the federal government really wants to get rid of Internet gambling, it should, for the first time, make betting a federal crime.

[Joanne98]

1. I think internet gambling should be a capital offense...

I'm sick of the casinos.

[pitohui]

3. so you want to execute millions of americans?

for playing 2 cent/4 cent hold 'em poker in the privacy of their homes?

how do you figure?

[Joanne98]

5. NO. Just the casino owners, investors and shareholders....

That's only a couple thousand people. If people want to gamble they can go back to the old fashioned way. In buildings facing people you can see. NO MIDDLE MEN ALLOWED. and it's not just 2 cent/4 cent hold em poker. It's a vacume cleaner, a vampire, inserting it's fangs in our country. They can try it but it's going to get ugly. some people GET IT!

[RB TexLa]

6. shareholders is more than a couple of thousand people and include

me.

[pitohui]

9. thanks rgbolen

i don't even want to speculate what that's about up there

[Joanne98]

16. Oh really. Can you tell us the company?

[RB TexLa]

19. I have shares in TabCorp, Party Gaming, and Bet and Win

I've bought and sold others, but these are more long term, or as long term as any investment with a company that relies heavly on the internet can be. I did hold Cryptologic but sold all my North American stocks (except oil) after 9-11-01.

[Joanne98]

21. I've never heard of them but I'm sure they'll do well. Much better

than the people that play the games will anyway. Kind of reminds of the old gold rush days. All the people who mined for the gold but ended up desolute. All except the guy who sold the shovels and the prostitutes of course. But it's so much cleaner now that the 'market' is deciding our lives. Hey. Since "games of chance" and prostitution always go together, do you see any merges between internet gaming and internet porn? Now there's a marriage made in Heaven. Could get a guy confused though. What did I just pull, the lever or my ....

Sold all your North American companies? I don't blame you. We're pretty much toast these days. It's better do be offshore. Close enough to pick the bones clean.

[pitohui]

32. never heard of party gaming, she repeated in flat-footed awe at the ignorance

so we have a person who doesn't have one tiny clue of what they are talking about...but don't let complete and total ignorance of the topic at hand stop you from posting or anything

seriously, what is wrong w. people?

they want to spread hate against an entire industry that they never even heard of until five minutes ago

[EdwardM]

7. How about we have a government that doesn't tell people what to do.

What right do we have to tell people not to spend there time on a computer gambling their money away? I really dont care what people do with their money. It's their money, not the government's.

[rurallib]

13. Please note this bill is protection for casinos

While the media has made this bill out to be some kind of a real do-googer bill to stop insidious gambling, the real intent and effect of this bill is to protect the land based casinos by killing their competition.
Leach is (soon to be was) my rep and he was finally allowed to have this bone by his party when it became clear his seat was in jeopardy.
It took ten years before his party would bring it to the floor because the banking industry is so against it, to the point of saying they may refuse to comply. This will result in a huge amount of work for the banks to keep abreast of constantly changing websites and creative methods of exchanging money.
In short this is a protectionist bill for casinos that was poorly thought out and will cause a huge onus on banks. And guess who will pay for all this in the end?

[ContraBass Black]

2. Remember when Greece tried to ban internet gambling

And banned all video games instead because of poorly worded legislation?

Under-thought legislation is dangerous.

[pitohui]

4. well the entire article is weird, i wonder when he actually wrote it

the law has been passed two months now, passed by the senate as an add-on to the port security bill and long since signed by the resident

the banks are not supposed to be allowing transfers to/from poker sites even now, but the regulations that they have to follow have not been fully outlined

so it's just chaos at the moment

some sites won't allow any americans, many sites refuse americans from certain states, some sites will take all american players but they have to be laundered through a third party such as neteller since the american's bank won't let them post directly into pokerstars or full tilt

rose has been trying to put on his game face but i don't have such an optimistic reading of the law and i feel he's grasping at straws a bit, it's ALREADY illegal for money to be transferred from usa banks or credit cards to the sites and back out again, now they're just hammering out the details

the banks do not wish to be in the business of inspecting every transaction to see if it's going to a poker site but the credit card companies already have to do it, the banks will fall in line

blocking off ISPs is already done by china (altho i have still encountered chinese players), it will be done by the usa as well to head off complaints by banks that they are being given an intolerable burden in figuring out who is using their own money to play poker

many people were making nice part-time or even full-time incomes off the poker sites and don't appreciate this theft of our incomes for no reason by the senator frist and the prohibitionists

[deucemagnet]

11. I was thinking the same thing.

I. Nelson Rose wrote some good articles shortly after the port security bill was passed, but this one seems kind of confused and rambling. First of all, it seems odd that Goodlatte would try to bring this to the floor during a lame duck congress after the port security bill was already passed and signed into law. Second, it's strange that he would use Party Gaming and Neteller as examples, when Party suspended all American accounts after the port security bill was signed into law, and Neteller said it would comply with the law and determine what actions to take before the 270-day rulemaking period expires. I agree that this looks like something that might have been written a few months ago.

[JohnyCanuck]

8. So when are they going to ban airlines from flying to Las Vegas n/t

[Joanne98]

18. At least you have to go to Las Vegas. But I won't defend them

anymore either since they turned into "corporate vampire headquarters"

[gaspee]

10. It's all about getting their cut

When gambling money goes offshore, the gov't doesn't get any money. They'll never ban flights to vegas cause they get a cut of that money.

Same old, same old. Follow the money and get the answer.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

12. Damn right... it's frickin hypocrisy at its finest.

[Skip Intro]

14. I am SICK of the government interfering in my personal life!

What business of the government is it what I do with my own damned money, in the "privacy" of my own damn home? None.

My money, my mind, my body - are NOT property of the state. If I want to gamble while the prostitute cuts us out lines of cocaine while listening to Slayer (what the hell) in my own living room, its my own dammed business.

What's this freedom thing again?

[Wiley50]

15. Do These Online Casinos REALLY Pay Off When You Win

I've never tried it because I don't know which online casinos
are really legit and which are just scams.
Anyone here have any experience with this stuff?
Have you ever won any sizable prizes?

[Joanne98]

17. I doubt it, unless it's like the lottery. People win but nobody ever

knows them. Maybe there fake people. Or Bob Ney. lol

[pitohui]

31. so you have no idea of what you're talking about

you're embarrassing yourself, joanne

i find if you don't know what the hell you are talking about, maybe stop talking

plenty of people were making good money, part time, some even full time professional income, playing online

i'm not even that good and i was making a few hundred a months off bonuses, the good players were making much more

one of my acquaintances made $800,000 last year

$800,000

there is no real job where he could earn such money, his former profession was math professor!

[RB TexLa]

20. Yes they pay your winnings

There are some that are not as stable and you can have problems, do a search and you can find the more established ones that pay quickly without hassle.

[Joanne98]

22. What are the odds of winning? Have you ever won?

[RB TexLa]

23. The odds favor the house as they do in any casino

I don't play much online, and when I have I haven't wagered large amounts. But I have won money, the only one of a nice amount was a $300 payout that was wired two days after I won it, minus something like a $15 fee for the wire. Now I have won political bets and have always received them in a timely manner.

My game of choice is craps which doesn't translate to video very well. When I do play in a casino I still do not wager huge amounts, money does create an added excitement to the game, and in most any casino town late at night there will be tables with $1 minimums. Usually you can get $30 of chips and play through more than a bad losing streak for quite a while.

[Joanne98]

26. They charged you 15$ for the wire......

I guess that is cheaper than Western Union. You sound very educated about gaming. "Money does create an added excitement to the game". You should know that most people gamble to make money. It's not just an added excitement.

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/gambling.html

[RB TexLa]

28. It's like any "vice," there are people who have problems with all sorts

of things that others may not have. I enjoy gaming from time to time because it's exciting, would it be more exciting to win a $1000 bet on a long shot in the 5th race at Lone Star Park than to win a $2 bet on the same horse? I don't know, I am not willing to wager that much money for my fun. I understand there are people who's resources allow them to do so with it still being for excitement. And of course there are people who don't view gaming in a realistic fact based way. There are a few professional poker players in the world, but there are no professional video poker players or professional craps players, etc, etc. Anyone who says they make a living or are going to make a living from these games is lying, and has a problem with gaming addiction IMHO. As to the distinction of "added excitement" and "make money," that pretty much is what the excitement is based on, I guess it's the difference in understanding of expectations or of what one wants to win money for. Such as I bet $2 on a long shot and think, "man, I could win $40 or $50, go splurge on a steak dinner somewhere tonight," as opposed to "I gotta win this bet to pay my phone bill, or rent."

As with any thing that provides a stimuli there is a risk of addiction. There are people who have to have more and more of a stimuli just as with drug use except there isn't the physical dependency involved. When I worked at a psych/rehab facility we treated a few people for gaming addiction and the program was the same we used for substance addiction minus the physical treatments.

Bottom line is alot of the verbiage can come to splitting hairs, and there are many people who have problems with gaming, anyone including myself who indulges in it runs a risk of creating a problem for themselves. IMO, those who gamble responsively are indulging for the entertainment value and having fun, the amounts will vary according to one's means but entertainment dollars spent at a casino are spent and gone just as if they were spent at the movies, a water park or a cross country trip. Those who are past using it for entertainment or fun or wrongfully never viewed it as entertainment should and need to seek treatment and support for their problem.

While I don't agree with your position of capital punishment for those involved in the online gaming industry, I do understand, appreciate and share your concern for those who have problems with gaming.

[Joanne98]

29. You sound so indifferent to the human condition....

"When I worked at a psych/rehab facility", explains alot. It must be hard to deal with damaged people and ignore the world they have to live in as a cause of their problems. I see human problems as a result of the system they exist in. Internet gaming will only make the world a darker place. I'm sorry you can't see that. But don't fret your investments. People like me are going extinct. The market will decide what life we life from now on. All I can say about that is, thank God for death.

[pitohui]

36. "thank god for death"?

joanne, you have a serious problem and it is not online gaming

you need to be talking about whatever your situation is with a professional, instead of spewing ignorance about an industry that has benefited a great many people and changed a great many lives for the better

i have seen gaming bring hope to the entire state of mississippi, i have seen gaming bring hope to myself and to friends of mine who were not accepted by society and would never have a chance of a normal income, gaming paid for my house

if you don't like gaming, if you don't know how to play, if you are a perpetual loser because you refuse to educate yourself about what games to play and how to play them, it's pretty simple -- don't play

but buzz off and stop trying to control my life, many people are better off for having the option to play poker and blackjack or to deal those games

many other people are not professionals or experts, realize they are not, and spend far less on blackjack or poker or dice or (gasp!) slots than they would ever spend if they took up golf -- which, guess what, they'd never be tiger woods at golf either

people have a right to choose their own form of entertainment -- and casino gaming and certainly online gaming with its cheap cheap games is far nicer to the budget than hunting, fishing, golfing, and many other sports that cost thousands every year

[pitohui]

34. you don't need to pay any $15 for a wire

i have never paid a fee to receive my winnings, i don't see the need to pay the $15 for the wire transfer while neteller is still around

very few people pay for a wire fee, there is no need really, well there were a few sites that were so slow that i suppose you could get twitchy and think, i might as well get the wire, but i never did and it is not what is commonly done

most people do something like neteller (a sort of paypal only for gambling sites) or igm-pay or some other free service to and from their bank

i've also received checks although it wasn't my first choice but as long as they're in usa dollars they spend just as good as anybody else's checks and better than checks from certain of my friends!

[RB TexLa]

37. That payout was about 6 years ago

They had several different options for payments, including overnight air of cash.

[pitohui]

38. ah gotcha EOM

,

[pitohui]

33. the odds favor the skilled player, and i certainly have won

actually everyone i know well is a winner who is involved in this, but that is a function of the crowd of people i hang with -- former blackjack players, math professors, etcetera

anyone with the bonuses being offered and a little patience could make a nice extra income playing the poker bonuses

now the fascists and the prohibitionists have killed it

you know what, i do understand that many people hate and fear intelligent people and especially people who knowledgeable of math and odds, but to hate us enough to take the cash from our wallets?

that is truly disturbed, and apparently kitten-killer frist is not the only person who suffers the mental disease of hating his intellectual superiors

mr. frist couldn't even beat ME in a poker game

so he took it away

what a baby

[RB TexLa]

35. Poker is as you know not a casino game (so to speak)

There is simply a VIG in poker, the house takes a cut of a pot of players bets. The more hands played and the higher the pots the more cuts they get to take.

My saying it is not a casino game is what you have pointed out, it is a game where skills are involved as opposed to just luck.

And the house does have good odds in running a poker table, as they are not going to be paying out money (other than bonuses to bring people to their casino) the losing players provide the payout.

[pitohui]

39. right but much of online gaming is about poker

this person you're debating with is completely without a clue, see above where she has never even heard of party gaming

the casino games online, the skill involved at those are different skills, finding positive EV games and then if possible getting multiple accounts accepted so not the same skills as poker and perhaps a little more "gamey" than we want to talk about here

the point is even a fairly clueless person could have taken advantage of some of the online poker games and could not have failed to win money, after all, i never put in a penny of my own money, i started with an instant bankroll from an affiliate -- which is what a lot of other people did who were new to online gaming and cautious about the honesty

you can't really fail to win if you never put in a dime of your own money

there was some of that with casino games also but they cracked down a lot as the professionals got super active

[pitohui]

30. yes they do i was making a nice part time side income

of course they pay out, you can go to casinomeister.com or bonuswhores.com and get information on who's good

i was making hundreds of dollars extra a month, they have so many giveaways that it's just sick that americans can no longer participate

in case you hadn't heard, a little player called chris moneymaker literally ended up winning the wsop and winning millions -- and plenty of other internet players were making good money as well

[Wiley50]

40. "Americans Can No longer Participate" Explain Please

I've done a little checking now at the sites you mentioned.
Casinomeister.com for one

And I see that some bar US players
Others don't

What's the skinny?

[CabalPowered]

41. Yep. A buddy of mine just cashed out $2000 about a week ago

Started with $20 about two years ago and just played on occassion.

[warrens]

24. Using gambling to justify grabbing more of our civil liberties

Is this a major problem? I haven't heard anything worse than I've heard about casinos. I think you have to be retarded to play a game knowing the odds favor the house, and even more stupid to play a game where you can't even see them deal the cards (oopsie, you lose AGAIN!!!!), but we don't pass laws to protect stupid people. This is aimed at closing down any site the people in power don't like.

All they have to do is claim DU is raising money to support terrorism, not site costs, and shut it down and take Skinner to court and keep it on trial for years. Voila, no more DU.

[Blackhatjack]

25. Can you spell H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y?? Or try LOTTERY??

So government approved and soliciting for Lotteries is gambling that is ok, but other types of gambling are wrong?

I don't know about the odds, but I suspect that the chances of winning online are a heck of a lot better than winning the Lottery.

We have begun to phase out and outlaw videopoker in North Carolina along with the introduction of a new State Lottery and Scratch Off Ticket enterprise. It sure cuts down on the competition.

Regardless of which side you come down on, it would seem the Government could at least be consistent as whether 'gambling' is right or wrong, good or bad, etc.

BTW this law in its present incarnation is virtually unenforceable. It will create a huge mess for those trying to comply with it and enforce it, and take away valuable resources needed to catch and prosecute real criminals doing much more damage.

[Joanne98]

27. I agree. We should have never allowed the lottery.....

It was supposed to help the schools but it hasn't done shit for them. We should get rid of it. The casino bosses just fuck people and the schools are no exception.