Alaska school goes insane - teaches 6th graders to shoot guns

[donsu]

http://www.gunguys.com/?p=1673


School Teaches Shooting to Sixth-Graders


Here’s a scary thought: while teenagers shoot Secret Service agents and get gunned down in the street, one Alaska school is doing the almost unthinkable: putting firearms in students’ hands.

Tom Milliron figures Juneau school children are going to encounter guns one way or another, whether venturing armed into nearby wilderness or visiting the home of a friend.

Better they learn how to handle a firearm safely than to hurt themselves through ignorance, he says.

Milliron is principal of one of Juneau’s two middle schools. Sixth-graders under his care last month completed an outdoor education course that included instruction in safe handling of guns and firing rounds from .22-caliber rifles. For some children, it was the first time they’d touched a gun.

In gun-happy Alaska, teaching children how to safely handle firearms is just common sense, Milliron said.

“Kids ought to be approached from a solid educational perspective and not discover guns on their own,” Milliron said.

It’s a good sentiment, and it sure sounds like it would work, right? But the truth is that there is no such thing as “gun safety.” Guns are never safe, no matter how much training you have, and they’re definitely not safe around children.

-long snip-

There is no such thing as “gun safety.” Guns are always a threat, no matter what situation they’re placed in. Experienced hunters know that, as do experienced law enforcement officers. Both take a dire risk whenever they’re using a firearm. Children shouldn’t ever be asked to deal with that risk, even in a training situation and even with adult supervision. This program is asking for trouble, and we only hope Milliron is lucky enough to figure that out before parents in Alaska realize this program is the wrong thing to submit their children to.
---------------------------------


the parents of these children need their heads examined for letting this happen. the school board should be voted out. the teacher fired.

[melissinha]

1. gun safety is responsible, think "abstinence vs sex ed"

If it is true that most Alaskan children will become gun users, I would be in favor of teachers making sure that kids are learning responsible gun ownership... of course it really has to be a carelfully designed course, but I think children who know they are not going to have guns should be allowed to opt out and be given an alternate course, maybe something like archery.

hey I don't liek em, never touched one, but if it is really prevalent in their communities, I think a responsible attitude like that could really be helpful.

I think its kind of like the abstinence vs real sex education, its better to know the facts and to be tought to be responsible than to make stupid choices.

[donsu]

12. like sex education in public schools is really working well

kids should not handle guns

it's bad enough when adults handle guns

[BR_Parkway]

40. Sex Ed in school is mostly abstinence now - so 'abstinence from

guns' would probably have the same dismal results.

There are alot of guns in Alaska due to hunting, I'd much prefer the kids have a good schooling on proper respect for firearms

[smirkymonkey]

80. Abstinence from Guns?

That's a reach.

[BR_Parkway]

137. Isn't that what the poster I responded to was advocating? No guns

whatsoever?

[ComerPerro]

28. this is absolutely nothing like abstinence vs sex ed

[PistolSteve]

42. I thought it was a good analogy.... n/t

[I Have A Dream]

143. Yes, I thought of the same analogy myself. n/t

[aikoaiko]

138. good analogy! nt

[hedgehog]

2. I think you need to see the context.

"For SOME children, it was the first time they'd touched a gun." which means that some of the children had already handled a gun. We live on a river near Lake Ontario. There are several drownings every year. My school district gives every fifth grader swimming lessons. It only makes sense to me that the Juneau school district teaches gun safety as part of a larger outdoor education course. I've never been to Juneau, but my understanding is that it's a modern city plopped right in the middle of a wilderness.There are hazards there that kids in a typical suburban subdivision. Encounters with moose and bear are not uncommon. It only makes sense for all the kids to get proper training since a walk in the wrong direction could get them in real trouble really fast.

[donsu]

13. you don't need a gun to be in the wilderness

regardless of what you see in movies

[hedgehog]

15. That may be, but it is clear that these kids are around guns a lot.

My point is that there are hazards to living in Juneau that wouldn't be found in other places and it is reasonable to prepare kids to take the proper precautions. Like I said, around here we teach the kids how to swim. City kids have certain survival skills that country kids don't need and vice versa.

[Mythsaje]

25. ROFL

Try explaining that when a cougar is trying to drag off your kid.

OMG. Obviously you've lived most of your life in a "tamed" environment where the animals don't pose much of a potential threat.

Let me give you a pointer. You don't get to wack a cougar, or a bear, on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper. Hell, at least a bear can sometimes be scared off with loud noises. A cougar? Uh-uh. Something like a cougar can only see a human being as one of two things. A threat, or a meal. And someone who thinks guns are unnecessary for a trip in REAL wilderness is only a meal.

[donsu]

41. I've camped in the wilderness (bears, snakes) and none of us

carried a gun

[Mythsaje]

51. You were lucky...

And these days bears aren't much of a threat in the lower 48. I guarantee if you had encountered a cougar, on the other hand, you may have been subjected to a total re-evaluation of your position on the subject. They don't, as a rule, tend to attack groups. But a lone, unarmed human, or even a couple of humans (mated pairs will sometimes hunt in unison), could become prey if the cougar(s) saw the opportunity.

Firearms are the only things that allowed us to tame this wilderness as quickly as we have. Without them, the west would still probably be mostly pristine.

Alaska is STILL mostly wilderness on the scale of what the rest of country USED to look like.

No joke.

[uppityperson]

112. If your child or relative lived around guns, would you want them to learn safety?

Yes, there is no total safety in anything, but if it were your child living in an area where guns were common, would you want him/her learning responsible gun safety?

Am glad that you never needed a gun in the wilderness. I lived for several yrs in AK, including in the bush in bear country and I was glad to have a bear gun around, as well as pepper spray. Now, living in the lower 48, I have no need for a gun or pepper spray. If my child were living around guns I would want him trained in how to deal with them responsibly rather than coming across them when some group of kids were playing with them. And I did.

[michreject]

104. Not in Alaska

Hell, at least a bear can sometimes be scared off with loud noises.

The bears track you. You're dinner. I agree with you. Some people need to get out into the country more. If you're not aware of the danger, you WON'T survive.

[Mythsaje]

122. I wasn't aware of that...

Most of the bears down here will avoid humans, and can be startled or warned off by the simple expedience of making noise while you're walking around.

Doesn't sound like it's a good idea up there.

[uppityperson]

123. Most do, some don't. Read "Alaskan Bear Tales" for more

Met Lee Haggimier (sp?) in Juneau, got munched by a brown bear, story is in that book. Didn't meet a friend's friend who got eaten by a black bear in Glacier Bay (friend was an experienced kayak camper, experienced in bears and still got eaten). Most of them will avoid you, some won't. If you are going to be around big predators, many have protection.

[michreject]

147. I would suggest a minimum of .375 H&H

for the Kodiak. 10 to 12 foot bear. Meat eater. You don't chase them away.

[AngryAmish]

44. You do too if there are bears around

Saw "Grizzly Man" last night. I avoid bears, the soulless killing machines that they are.

[Mythsaje]

52. LOL...

Too much Colbert!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

144. how much continuous time have you spent in the wilderness...

I mean spent lost in the great Rocky Mountains with a Donner-party mentality

[Mythsaje]

3. Nonsense

They're not venomous snakes, they're firearms. Maintained and used properly, they're no more dangerous than any other tool, and less dangerous than many.

And this IS Alaska, where, even in this day and age, knowledge of the use of firearms can STILL save someone's life.

[donsu]

14. please explain what makes Alaska different then any other place

children should not handle guns, even in Alaska

[hedgehog]

Please, there must be an Alaskan here that can answer with authority!

It wasn't just a gun course but an entire course in outdoor living. I can tell you this, in my neck of the woods, we don't walk the dogs in our own woods this time of year without wearing orange vests! That's something people in other places don't have to worry about, but deer season is an annual event here. Every place has its own hazards.

[Mythsaje]

22. I did...

In fact, in my day, and in my father's day, and in my grandfather's day, it was NORMAL for a parent to teach a child the use of a firearm.

And here you're talking about a state that is, to this day, STILL mostly wilderness. Teaching a child gun safety is a lot like teaching a child how to cook without setting the house on fire.

[michreject]

23. This is one

please explain what makes Alaska different then any other place

Kodiak's.

Safe gun handling should be mandatory in all schools. I learned how to shoot in the 2nd grade. It was taught in school in conjunction with the BSA.

[CrispyQ]

91. I took a gun class a few years ago.

The three men teaching the class were wonderful. All had children & all the children were well educated & trained in the handling of guns. One of the men had a 16 year old boy & he said he was more worried about his boy behind the wheel of a car than with a loaded gun. I remember how I drove when I was young & I could see his point. ;)

Gun class -- one of the best things I've ever done. During the course of the class each instructor made the point: If you shoot & handle guns on a regular basis, you will have an accidentally discharge. Are you ready to deal with the consequences of that? It was a very informative & thoughtful class.

[ieoeja]

29. Nothing. Which is why this would be a good idea everywhere.

I was 12 when I was given my first firearm. And I had attended a class like this beforehand.

[spoony]

34. Bingo :)

[PistolSteve]

39. I disagree - Alaska is different

But that doesn't mean gun education is bad elsewhere, but I think each situation should be looked at individually. Kids in South Central LA SHOULDN'T be taught how to use a gun because there isn't a need for them to know - in fact, it would make things more dangerous.

[PistolSteve]

36. My Grandfather signed the Alaskan Consitution...

...so maybe I have a little bit of credibility here

Alaska is a different culture - you have to go there to understand. They are very independent and use guns all the time (we're not talking Anchorage). People carry them through town.

Guns in Alaska ARE relevant, likely more so than anywhere else. They are part of life. People hunt, protect themselves against bear, moose, etc...

The fact is that guns are everywhere there and it is important for Alaskan's to teach kids how to use a gun so they are safe. Some people will never understand that if they have never been exposed to them.

[ieoeja]

54. Again, how is this different from most of the rest of the country?

I grew up in southern Indiana. The people are very independent and use guns all the time (we're not talking Indianapolis). People carry them through town.

Guns in Indiana ARE relevant, likely as much so as anywhere else. They are part of life. People hunt, protect themselves against coyotes, wolves, wild pigs etc...

The fact is that guns are everywhere there, and it is important for Hoosiers to teach kids how to use a gun so they are safe. Some people will never understand that if they have never been exposed to them.

[Mythsaje]

56. Of course

coyotes and wolves are hardly much of a threat. Coyotes are opportunists, part of nature's clean up crew. Wolves don't attack adult humans. Wild pigs? They're notoriously nasty. I can see that.

If people are actually carrying guns to protect themselves against coyotes and wolves, it's more likely they're looking for an excuse to shoot one. IMO.

[Blue_In_AK]

118. PistolSteve, a big thank you to your grandfather....

I love Alaska's constitution. It has one of the strongest privacy clauses in the entire US of A. :)

[Mugu]

66. They haven't reintroduced bears and wolves

to Central Park in New York City for a reason.

Regards,

Mugu

[Mythsaje]

67. Well, the wolf thing is probably more

out of ancient fears that have little basis in fact (all domestic canines are descended from wolves, after all) but your point is well taken...

[aikoaiko]

139. I don't think they are that different. more kids in the lower 48 should be taught gun safety

I realize from your posts that you don't agree, but if kids older than 8 - 10 will come into contact with guns then they should be taught gun safety. I think its appropriate.

I was taught how to use guns in Boy Scouts at 12. They were simple Ruger 10/22 rifles, but I learned a lot, especially how to not hurt myself or others. It is analogous to sex and driving cars.

[TX-RAT]

151. This.

After raiding the camp, killing one of the dogs and attacking the guide, he had to be shot.
IMG]

[Donald Ian Rankin]

93. That's simply not true.

Guns are far more dangerous than most tools, and certainly more dangerous than any tool any responsible adult would let sixth graders use in school.

[uppityperson]

111. Learning safety of any dangerous thing is a good, responsible thing.

How about electric saws in shop class? Have a friend who lost a couple fingers reaching across a saw. Glad he didn't die. Kids in shop class need to learn how to deal with those tools safely. If they are going to be around guns, learning how to deal with them safely and responsibly is a good thing.

[Hippo_Tron]

117. I got to use them at camp when I was in 6th grade

And this was 7 years ago, not decades ago. So if there ever was an incident there would've been a lawsuit and the riflery activity would've been gone if not the camp itself.

[Mythsaje]

125. Yes, yes...

As I was taught from a very young age (7, I think) a gun is as safe as a kitchen stove IF maintained and used properly. Assume nothing. Act as though it can kill at ANY time, and act accordingly. They are NOT toys.

My father drilled gun safety into me, as did his parents into him. And he got a first-hand lesson as a child the dangers of weapons used irresponsibly. He put his little brother's eye out with an arrow.

I wasn't allowed to play with toy guns as a kid. Period. My dad believed that it diminished respect for real weapons and, as I grew older, I realized he had a point. Playing with guns is like juggling chainsaws. One mistake and very bad things happen.

At 7 I shot my first gun. By 10 I was a trained archer. By 20 I was skilled with the nunchaku. By 30 I could use just about any single-handed bladed or blunt weapon.

And I have NEVER injured another person with any weapon I was actually trained to use. Knocked myself out with the nunchaku once while I was learning, but at least I never nailed myself in the crotch.

Ignorance of, and/or disdain for, the proper use of tools causes injury...be it a pistol, a chainsaw, a kitchen stove, or a motor vehicle.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

145. snakes should rarely be killed and in a pinch are quite tasty i hear

In most states, encounters with pit-vipers are rare but most people see a rattler or cotton-mouth every time a colubrid does a reasonable imitation to intimidate potential predators. kinda sad, really, since these reptiles are nature's finest rodent control species.

[Fierce]

4. Makes sense to me.

"Children shouldn't ever be asked to deal with that risk, even in a training situation and even with adult supervision."

Seriously? At all? Even when hunting?

[cali]

5. Can't say I agree.

Sounds reasonable to me. I also live in a gun rich rural environment and my son learned how to handle a gun when he around that age. Granted, it wasn't through the school system, but I wouldn't have objected if it had been. I do think, of course, that such a program should be optional.

[distantearlywarning]

6. Sorry, don't see what the hysteria's about

I don't have a problem with people teaching children to handle firearms responsibly. If anything, it will probably cut down on accidental gun deaths. This seems like a sensible idea, especially in a rural environment where guns are a way of life (like Alaska, where many people own guns if for no other reason than to deal with the bears).

[phusion]

9. I agree... n/t

[T Town Jake]

7. Don't see anything "insane" about it: seems like common sense to me.

(n/t)

[Richard Steele]

8. 6th grade was the usual age to take a firearms safety course back home...

That's when children are of age to start hunting.

And that last paragraph there is just DRIPPING
with hysteria. Enough to reject anything else
the author has to say on the subject, IMO.

"There is no such thing as “gun safety.”
Guns are always a threat, no matter what situation they’re placed in.

I wonder if the author feels the same way about cars,
or bicycles, or playground equipment?

[Nabia2004]

71. Right, in the 6th grade I brought my Pa's gun in for "Show-n-Tell"

I demonstrated gun safety to my classmates. That was in 1967.

[donsu]

148. I think that was awful and the teacher and principal should have sent

you home and then talked to your parents about it.

[uppityperson]

158. I think you are judging people and situations you know little about, based on your experiences.nt

[Jeffersons Ghost]

146. YOU GO DICK... YOUR POST SAYS IT ALL! CHECK HIM OUT FOLKS

[madinmaryland]

10. Not sure about your comments.

In Alaska use of guns is quite common place and most people have been exposed to guns. Anything to teach children safety about these is a good thing.

Now in NYC, I would not support this, as there is no need for firearms in a city.

[PistolSteve]

11. There are two types of people who look at this argument:

First there are city people (no offense, seriously). They grew up without guns and often only hear about them when someone is shot. I am not making a broad statement, but gun perception is much different in cities.

Then there are people in Alaska, Wisconsin, Minnesota, etc.. who have houses often full of guns without a second thought (many times unsecured). If there is an attitude that kids need to learn how to use them to be safe - that's a good thing. The fact is that they are available whether we like it or not. Gun education doesn't make kids killers.

My reaction when I see a gun isn't thinking of it as a weapon of self defense or crime, but simply a gun - used to hunt.

Now for my ironic twist - I hate guns. Guns are used to kill people/animals brutally. I don't support murder and I won't eat something that has been shot and suffered. I detest people hunting for sport - I can understand people hunting if they NEED the food but I still don't like it. I hate the fact that many animals NEED to be killed to control their population so they don't starve. I only eat free range animals that have been killed without pain.

In my perfect world everyone would have enough food and there would be no need for guns (except for police) - but that will never happen.

[Options Remain]

17. I fired my first gun at age 10

My daughter will be doing the same in three years. We have already discussed firearms at length with her.

I am more concerned about the liability of the school in the event of an accident than kids getting the wrong message. If it is done responsibly and safely its a good thing.

Remember they are probably already playing videogames and watching movies where they shoot guns and kill people at that age.

[Hippo_Tron]

119. We had riflery at camp when I was 12 years old, and there were no incidents

It's all about proper instruction and supervision. And I agree with you completely about the video game thing. I don't think that video games lead directly to violence. I do think that sometimes violence happens because kids aren't taught the serious nature of firearms and the ONLY place they learn about them is from video games.

[Mythsaje]

126. Great correlation!

And, yeah, that goes along with my dad's insistence that toy guns were a very bad idea. I wasn't allowed them as a child and I can see why.

[uppityperson]

127. UPJr wanted a gun, pleeeeze? Said no, finally bought a tiny bb gun

took it to the beach and shot at targets. Then took it to the mountains and shot cans. Impressed other 5 yr olds when they found out "oooo, you have a gun". Had to explain what and why to several parents who were concerned.

No playing with toy ones since they aren't toys. Enough sticks around to make pretend guns with anyways. Getting the bbgun took the begging off for a toy one also, no more begging.

[Mythsaje]

129. Yeah... I was allowed to play with sticks

shaped like guns.

I could also play with a toy gun that looked like a laser gun. Not in the least bit real, and therefore okay.

I had a bb gun at 10. My idiot friend shoved the muzzle into the mud and I had it taken away. My dad was PISSED. At twelve he bought me a .22, but we got rid of it when we moved to the city.

[uppityperson]

130. invisible guns almost drove me nuts

quiet "pow pow" while driving along. UPjr KNEW I didn't allow guns in the car, had to hand them over and I threw them out the window to screams "nooooo, nooooo!". Sticks don't have to be shaped like guns. Straight sticks, short sticks, long sticks, etc etc etc. argh.

[Mythsaje]

131. I usually made bzzzting noises...

You know, laser guns.

I've been a sci-fi geek since I was a little kid. LOL

I freaked my stepmom out when I was about ten with some of the very graphic pictures (with modified stick figures) I was drawing at the time.

My dad hated my fascination with action figures.

It's funny, but all that contributed to my becoming a writer. Long before I ever wrote my first word I was writing scripts in my head...inventing characters, developing scenarios, and doing what writers do.

[ieoeja]

49. Very true!

I (country) was horrified when I learned my ex-wife (city) was letting her son (then 9) walk by himself to school. While she was horrified when she learned I let him drive a lawn mower that following summer.

Country and city have their different comfort zones based on their own experiences growing up.

Of course, there *is* more to it than that. For instance, I never met a Black man who didn't wish he could own and use a firearm legally within the city.

TEST: what did you just honestly feel when you read that? Did it scare you? Or did you even just think up a joke about black men carrying guns? Don't post your answer to those questions, just honestly explore your own feelings a moment.

Even if YOU read that without thinking anything, you know how a lot of people, even most pro-gunners, would feel. And THAT is why, despite their desire to "take back the streets", city black men consistently vote for the anti-gun candidate. When a white man uses a gun in self-defense, he is immediately heralded as a hero. When a black man uses a gun in self-defense, noone believes him and assumes it was some drug deal or whatever gone bad. And that's assuming the police don't shoot him as soon as they see him with a gun.

[recoveringrepublican]

73. I agree, was raised in ND and MN

Now I live near Tampa.

My brother and I were taught gun safety and how to use a rifle. We were taken deer hunting every season. I've seen what guns can do to a living being. After that I had no interest in guns, BUT should I had came across one I would know to leave it alone, or if needed, how to disable it. My father kept his rifles under his bed (I don't know where he kept the ammo), and the only time my brother and I looked at them was when we were searching for Christmas gifts.

[XOKCowboy]

79. I was on Amtrak going through CO right before hunting season

and every little town had all the hunters out "sighting in" their rifles and always right beside the tracks. Some of the "city folk" on the train were initially very alarmed thinking that dozens of people came out every afternoon and just shot hell out of things and drink beer! LOL Some of us locals explained to them about hunting season in Colorado and it somewhat calmed them down. You could tell that they'd never seen that much firepower in the public's hands before!

[Hippo_Tron]

120. Well this city person thinks that this class is a good idea

[MamaBear]

16. Okay.

I was raised in the country, moved to town in late childhood, and now live in a big city. When we lived in the country, there were guns in the house. Every so often Dad would take us to a remote place and let us take shots at targets and tin cans and such. The guns were never left out and never loaded. They disappeared when we moved into town, and I never (seriously)contemplated owning one as a city dweller.

Dad figured it was better for him to let us have a few experiences with the guns than have us try to figure it out for ourselves.

Where guns are plentiful, kids should be shown how to handle them safely and properly. I'm sure these guys would not try to bring the program here to the city. If they did, I would oppose it.

[ruiner4u]

18. Seems like a very level headed program..

http://www.jsd.k12.ak.us/fd/


ADF&G, United States Coast Guard, Territorial Sportsmen, U.S. Forest Service, Capitol City Fire & Rescue and many individual parent volunteers

I can't think of a more qualified bunch to be teaching this course. And after reading the schools actual program, and not the news article, this program also teaches "orienteering, outdoor safety, appropriate outdoor clothing, marksmanship, meat care, wildlife conservation and management, and ethical harvest"

Alaska is still a wilderness and I'm glad these children are being taught gun safety responsibly.

[Fierce]

19. Hell, I wish we had one of those courses where I'm at!

nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. Guns are pretty important in Alaska.

Not sure about Juneau, but there are places in Alaska, specifically polar bear country, where you shouldn't stray far from home without a gun.

[GDAEx2]

21. Sounds like a good idea

Ya know, a little education goes a long way.

[Sabriel]

24. We had hunter safety courses offered to middle-schoolers

That was in the late '70s, and it's still true today. Also, when I was in high school, people routinely took their rifles and shotguns to school...mounted in their truck racks. No one ever thought anything of it, but people are shocked when I mention it today.

It was just something you did back then.

[AngryAmish]

47. Most high schools in Chicago had rifle teams in the 50s

(I don't know when the teams stopped).

But the kids would get on the bus or el and ride around with their guns. No big deal.

[T Town Jake]

68. Yep! My dad told me that in his high school in the early fifties in Kansas City...

...his high school ROTC had an armory on the school grounds for their rifle team. And no one thought a thing about it.

[AngryAmish]

74. Armory at U of I in the late 80s had a rifle range

Students could rent guns and shoot. I did it once and it is still the only time I have ever shot.

[pstokely]

132. That was before gang violence and Columbine style school shootings

[T Town Jake]

159. Which is apropos of.....what, exactly?

(n/t)

[Eugene]

26. I was taught gun safety and how to shoot at age 12.

That was way back before the NRA got political.

Guns are a part of outdoor life, especially in places like Alaska.
Teaching common sense safety practices where people are likely
to encounter guns is good policy. Responsible handling of guns
is taught. Experienced people don't just pick it up.

Full disclosure: I some gun control but also I support responsible
gun ownership.

[Withywindle]

27. I learned about guns when I was about that age.

My dad taught me how to check to see if it was loaded, how to handle it safely, how to shoot a little. He was a park ranger and carried one to work every day and also was expected to carry one off-duty (they're law enforcement, after all). There was always one in the glove compartment of the car.

It just made sense. We didn't hunt, but lots and lots of people did. Most people where I grew up (rural VA) had guns, I bet that's even more true in Alaska. You think it's better to NOT teach the kids basic safety?!

[roamer65]

30. There had better be written parental approval before this "class"...

is given to these kids. I don't see mention of it. If a school gave this class to my kids without my express written permission, I'd sue their behinds off and win. These kids are minors and you need to have written parental approval just for CYOA purposes.

[slackmaster]

62. The GunGuys site is a propaganda engine

There is surely at least an "opt out" option available to parents. It would not serve GunGuys' political agenda to mention it.

[donsu]

149. they are not a 'propaganda engine' they tell and show the truth of

what guns are doing to our country

[bluedogyellowdog]

86. There shouldn't be a parental "opt out" option for sex education,

nor should pharmacists be allowed to "opt out" of dispensing the morning after pill and birth control.

The same principal applies here. Should be mandatory. Not just in Alaska but everywhere.

[Odin2005]

31. I don't see the problem with this.

The people complaining about this show the typical ignorance about Rural America urbanites have.

[patcox2]

32. I first shot a gun at 12. Many people are killed by bears in Alaska.

Really, this outrage is silly. Even if you hate guns, you have to admit, its like sex education, "just say no" will never work, so you make sure that if they're gonna use guns, they do so safely. Wear a condom. Don't take off the safety until right before you shoot.

[donsu]

43. "many" are killed by bears? how many?

nt

[Dunedain]

58. Here is some information

I isn't many, but it does happen.

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/attacks/bear-human_conflicts.htm

[Book Lover]

33. Great idea!

And honestly, I wish this kind of program were not restricted to rural and near-rural areas. Why *not* teach "inner-city" kids who will handle or be around handguns, how to handle them with respect? Hell, even I, a chubby while catholic girl from Queens, knew people who had handguns (legal and other) when I was growing up.

[WI_DEM]

35. alot of Alaska is wilderness and kids hunt and gun safety is a good idea

[Blue_In_AK]

37. I'm an Alaskan weighing in here...

and I have no problem with this course in Juneau. Guns are indeed part of many people's lifestyles up here, and it is far better to have kids trained in the proper use and safety of firearms than not. Especially if this is part of a larger orienteering program, I think it's fine. I personally don't own a gun, but if I were someone who spent more time in the wilderness I probably would. As someone up thread said, you don't just whack a grizzly in the nose with a newspaper and expect him to go away. Sometimes people have no choice but to shoot -- it's a whole lot better than the alternative.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

38. What about the urban wilderness?

Folks here have made a pretty good case, imho, for gun safety in some public schools of Alaska. But what about other American communities where guns are likely to be encountered (which is just about everywhere). What about D.C., Compton, Detroit? Isn't gun safety just as important to those children? What about places where guns are essentially banned but are nonetheless present, like NYC?
Should there be a nationwide standard for gun safety education or would it be impossible to arrive at a concensus?

[slackmaster]

61. I strongly support making gun safety training available to all kids

Most parents are not qualified to teach it, just as they are not always the best people to teach their children how to drive or how to avoid contracting STDs.

Minimal training would IMO consist of teaching how to identify and unload several of the most commonly encountered types of firearms:

Revolver
Magazine-fed semiautomatic pistol
Pump-action shotgun
Semiautomatic shotgun
Bolt-action rifle
Magazine-fed semiautomatic rifle

A disabled specimen of each could be used as a training aid, with inert ammunition. The rules of safe gun handling would of course be taught and strictly enforced.

[Crim_n al]

45. I'm anti weapons in most situations,

But, by the age of four, my children knew how to use, care for and sharpen our big carving knife.

And, when it comes to skill development, I see learning about guns in the same context.

No-one becomes a threat through careful training in the use and care of a weapon.
Such training makes it more likely they will realise the dangers involved and treat a weapon
with care and respect. Guns are dangerous. Understanding the dangers, knowing how to shoot and
keeping them in good nick makes them less so.

I believe we underestimate children, give them too little responsibility and too little
opportunity to learn about the real world and gain enough variety of experience.

Kids need to be off their backsides doing things, not confined to desks and televisions all day.
They need challenges, and they need opportunities to learn about the things that interest them.

[Richard Steele]

89. "DU member goes insane; teaches children to use knives."

PARAPHRASED from the thread OP, to point out how
hysterically hyperbolic it was:

There is no such thing as “knife safety.”
Knives are always a threat, no matter what situation
they’re placed in.
Experienced chefs know that, as do experienced professional woodworkers.
Both take a dire risk whenever they’re using a sharp tool.
Children shouldn’t ever be asked to deal with that risk,
even in a training situation and even with adult supervision.

[Hobarticus]

46. True, and false. Gun safety classes save lives. Shooting guns in class is a bit much.

Firing those guns may be a little extreme, I'll grant you that. I don't agree with that at all.

But dismissing gun safety courses as dangerous, while done so with good intentions, makes as much sense as claiming that teaching sex ed leads to sex.

Apparently the author of the article thinks it's better that a child discovers a gun in the home, stored irresponsibly, and decides to take it upon himself to learn about handling a gun. Even if you don't have a gun in the house, your child's friend's parents might. And kids playing with guns don't always just hurt themselves. Assuming that every parent teaches their child gun safety is folly.

[benEzra]

48. Ah, a crosspost from a ban-more-guns lobby website...

if you wouldn't uncritically crosspost NRA press releases, you might reconsider uncritically crossposting gun-control-lobby press releases also.

Teaching gun safety in schools isn't "insane" by any stretch of the imagination. Nationally, 4 in 10 American households contain lawfully owned firearms; in Alaska, the percentage is undoubtedly WAY higher.

If everyone knew and practiced the Four Rules of gun safety, most gun accidents in this country wouldn't happen.

1. ALWAYS treat a firearm as if it were loaded.
2. NEVER let the muzzle of a firearm point at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger OFF the trigger unless your sights are on the target.
4. Be sure of your target and what is behind it.

Gun accidents are extremely rare in this country, but they'd be practically nonexistent if it weren't for the people who get their gun handling skilz from the TV (fingers on triggers, guns routinely pointed at others or at their own extremities, handling guns carelessly because "they aren't loaded", etc.).

[warrens]

50. INSANE????

Learning to handle guns in Alaska is INSANE? Are you nuts? I grew up in northern New England and we had gun safety classes all the time. I have no idea where you live, but teaching kids to handle guns safely is a very good thing, since in many areas of the country, their parents or uncles or friends have a basement full of them (See Columbine, etc)

[Greyhound]

53. A question for Donsu.

If you don't want to answer in public, or at all, I perfectly understand, but I want to ask anyway.

I get the feeling you don't live in the US and were not born/raised here, is this true?

[donsu]

150. was born in Wash., D.C. have always been against guns, military, war

nt

[Greyhound]

55. Firearm safety was a required class in the 8th grade here/then.

I thought, and still think it is a great idea. There are ~250,000,000 firearms in this country, the chances of going through your whole life without ever seeing one is next to zero, so maybe it is a good thing to understand how to handle them safely and realize that they are not inherently evil.

No gun has ever jumped up off the table, loaded itself and killed someone, so why the irrational fear of an inanimate object?

[Xenotime]

57. This is insane. I thought schools were supposed to be gun free.

We need more control on these types.

[slackmaster]

60. "We"? "Types"???

Who are "we" and what do you mean by "types"?

Do you have a problem with local school boards setting policies that they feel are appropriate for their areas?

[slackmaster]

59. My stepfather taught me to respect and safely handle firearms at age 10

My brother was six years old at the time. Neither of us have ever had a bad incident with a firearm.

There is no such thing as “gun safety.”

Sounds like you are posting from a position of ignorance. If you are ever in the San Diego area, drop me a line and I'll take you to a range for some safety instruction and fun.

As long as parents have the power to opt their children out of this training, I have no problem with it. It makes a lot of sense, just like drug abuse education, sex education, and driver training.

[Ariana Celeste]

63. I don't see how this is insane

God forbid we arm our children with information. I am a city girl but my dad owned guns, and even though he kept them locked up, he took us out and taught us about them. My little brother took a course. We were taught to respect guns and we knew that they could kill. So you know what? My little brother and I were educated and therefore didn't have that morbid curiosity many children end up with when they are "not allowed" or just happen to find one in a drawer, having only seen them on cool tv shows.
There is no way we will ever get rid of guns, and we shouldn't, as far as I'm concerned. So what we need to do is teach children about guns. Not just "guns are bad!!!", but genuine information about how they work and what they can do. As children get older, if there are guns in a home, they should be taught how to handle them. Otherwise there is a good chance that if they come across a gun on their own, they will want to find out for themselves, or play with it and risk hurting or killing themselves or another person.

[jmowreader]

64. It was a required class in 7th grade in Idaho, and I believe it still is

You had to spend two days in "hunter safety" class. State law.

The school sent home a permission slip which your parents had to sign for you to shoot, and everyone's parents did. It was no big deal. You sat through two days of all sorts of training on guns (including having to watch a film in which the "star" of the film shot his friend and had to deal with the pain of knowing he fucked up--fortunately, he didn't shoot him very well and the friend lived), you fired one magazine of five rounds through a .22, you got two grades--classroom and range. Without a hunter safety card (I think you can bring a license from last year and have it count against the hunter safety requirement), you can't get a current-year hunting license.

In high school in the 1970s, quite a few of the 16 and 17-year-olds would bring rifles to school during deer, elk and bear seasons so they could get into the woods after school for a couple of hours. (School let out at 3:30, you could make it to a place where game lived by 4:30, and you had to be out of the field by 6:30 because it was too dark to legally hunt. Occasionally someone would kill something after school--it didn't happen often but sometimes it did.

Gun deaths in the St. Maries High School Classes of 1979 through 1983--the two years ahead of and behind mine--zero. My folks keep me up to date on things like fatalities, and they haven't reported any gun-related ones. Oh, there have been deaths--one guy bought an airplane kit, forgot how to fly while he was putting it together and flew it into a power line down by the airport; four or five guys have been killed while logging; one guy was driving a logging truck loaded to 100,000 pounds before the St. Joe National Forest was officially open (legal weight in Idaho is 80,000, and the Forest Service closes the Joe to logging to keep things like this from happening) that collapsed the road it was on and dropped 350 feet into the St. Joe River. Couple of car crashes. A few house fire-related fatalities. We even had a (gasp!) cancer death. You know, normal stuff.

Donsu, I know you feel different about this than I do, but I support this class.

[Cleita]

70. I think it's a good idea too, especially since in rural Idaho you

are going to be around guns. It would be better to know how to use them probably. I think this argument could be compared to sex education. The more factual sex education your kids get, the fewer pregnancies and STD's. Teaching kids to respect and use firearms should lead to fewer accidents.

[jmowreader]

75. I really think it does.

Now all they need to do is teach kids to respect and obey load limits...more Benewah County residents are killed by overloaded logging trucks (specifically chip trucks--drivers will load a chip truck up to 85,000 lbs in December then drive it to Lewiston, lose traction on the Kendrick Grade and get killed) in one year than by guns in five.

And you are ABSOLUTELY correct about sex ed. "Just Say No" works REAL well for about six months.

[Cleita]

77. Been over the grade in a travel trailer and it is treacherous.

I find driving in the forested areas of Idaho pretty much a game of chicken with the logging trucks. You never know when one is going to jump out on the road in front of you going an insane speed for the load. I talked to some of the loggers as to why they didn't slow down and it turns out the companies pay them extra for getting the loads to the yard in record time. Somebody has got to get the feds in there with some OSHA oversight.

[jmowreader]

84. There is a running joke in St. Maries...

that Jack Buell (he owns one of the biggest trucking companies in the State of Idaho--WAY over 100 trucks) won't hire you if you don't have six points on your CDL.

Unfortunately, it's not far from the truth. Jack has ALWAYS paid his drivers' traffic tickets.

Jack's trucks are easy to recognize...they're this weird pea-soup green, and they go about a hundred miles an hour right through the middle of town.

[XOKCowboy]

85. You should ride a motorcycle in ID, OR, WA....

The logging trucks guys are CRAZY! Like you said they pull out in front of you and are on your tail if you're doing the speed limit or a little over. Pretty scary stuff!

[napi21]

65. Why are you all complaining about this? I think it's a great idea!

I surely wouldn't recommend it in NYC, Miami, or LA, but in Alaska it's a good idea.

Isuspect over 90% of the homes in AK have at least one gun, and probably more. It is MUCH better to teach EVERYONE to be familiar with the operation of a gun, and how much damage they can actually do if handled improperly.

Children are by nature curious, and it's much better that they know what a gun is for and what NOT to do with it when they encounter one!

[Book Lover]

72. As someone who grew up in NYC, and

as you can see from my above post, I think it's a great idea to teach this in cities, too. Why should those kids be kept ignorant? They will be around guns, too, like as not. And not everyone born in the city stays there.

[Cleita]

69. In Alaska guns are a fashion accessory. Kids in the more remote

areas even take them to school, particularly if they have to go through a wooded area to get there. Wild life is a real threat. I think teaching them proper gun use and etiquette is a good idea for something that they are going to be around anyway.

I have eaten in places in Alaska where there is a gun rack before you enter the eatery to park your hardware. For anyone who lives in a city with a lot of urban gang violence I know it's hard to understand, but there are parts of this country especially the further north you go where having guns is a practical consideration.

Before we had hijackers, terrorists and Homeland Security, whenever I boarded the airplane in Seattle to Anchorage, part of the carry on luggage of many of the passengers were rifles in cases of course, which they put in the overhead compartments. Could you imagine that happening today?

[XOKCowboy]

76. HOORAY for Tom Milliron! We need more like him

I totally disagree with your argument. There is such a thing as "firearm safety". My grandparents, parents (yes BOTH sets of parents) and Scout Masters all taught me gun safety from a very young age. It makes you understand that a gun is not a toy and is deadly if not handled properly. Education, especially in an area like Alaska where guns are everywhere, is the only way to keep the number of "accidental" shootings down as much as possible.

I hate to dig up this old adage but it's true. "Guns don't kill people, people kill people".

[Donald Ian Rankin]

95. If you believe that guns don't kill people

then try sticking one in your mouth and pulling the trigger, and see what happens.

This teacher very severely jeopardised the safety of his pupils, both in the short term, and in the long by making them see guns as safe and normal, rather than the dangerous devices for killing things and people with that they actually are. The only way to handle guns safely is not to, it's as simple as that, especially for children.

The only way to keep the number of shootings down is to reduce the number of guns, but unfortunately there's no political will for gun control in America whatsoever. But encouraging children to use guns will increase, not decrease, the number of shootings.

He should never work in a school again.

[slackmaster]

97. Good to know your opinion is in the minority here, Donald

I wouldn't want to see the Democratic Party adopting a platform based on it.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

100. Nor would I, alas.

It would a) fail, and b) be the electoral equivalent of pointing one of the guns Americans love so much at your head and firing it.

Decent gun control would save thousands of lives a year if it *was* introduced, though; the fact that there's no chance of it being doesn't change that.

The Democratic party should remain disgustingly pro-gun, though, I agree, because there are other places the political capital can be spent less futilely.

[slackmaster]

101. I am not pro-gun

I am pro-choice on guns.

[Richard Steele]

98. Stuff and nonsense. HYSTERICAL much?

There's not a single SENTENCE in that post which
actually comes close to being "fact based".

I hereby DISMISS your post, and call it a silly thing.

Good day.

[uppityperson]

108. Ah, but a person still pulled the trigger. The person (you) did it.

Many of these students live around guns, many have friends who live around guns. Teaching respect for them is part of teaching safety. If they are going to be around guns, it is good to know how to treat them respectfully and safely.

[Hippo_Tron]

121. Because abstinence worked so well for sex education

Why don't we try it with guns.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

133. Young people have bucket loads of hormones encouraging them to "have sex".

The same is not true of "purchase guns" - they're something you're only likely to want as a result of cultural pressure.

The reason abstinence education on sex is a daft idea is not because abstinence itself isn't a good idea, it's because teaching children to abstain doesn't lead to them abstaining, because of biological imperatives.

The same is not true of guns - if you don't teach children to want guns, most of them won't, as witnessed by the lack of clamour for guns by children in countries like the UK with decent levels of gun control.

[Hippo_Tron]

134. Alright, you go ahead and change that cultural pressure

That cultural pressure has been around since before our nation was founded and as much as I'd love if guns didn't exist at all, the fact is that they do.

I think that teaching kids the true nature of firearms is a good idea. They need to understand that what they see in movies and video games is not real and that guns CAN actually kill people. This class is not only a means to teach them about the practical aspects of gun safety but also a way to teach them the reality of guns.

Personally I stay the hell away from guns because I have a fear of shooting myself or shooting my friends. This is because I understand that when I see guns used in movies and video games is not real. Many kids don't learn that it isn't real.

[Mythsaje]

128. Thank God

the Dems are finally realizing the folly of your position.

As I suggested up-thread, I knew how to use a firearm at the age of SEVEN. It made me far more aware of the actual dangers of the weapon than toy guns or video games ever will. And without the proper training, that's the only actual experience children will have with guns until they somehow get their hands on a REAL one.

Why don't you take a trip up to Alaska and try tromping around in the wilderness without a weapon. I'm sure it will be VERY educational. You can do lectures on it when and if you make it back alive.

[Alfalfa Wolf]

78. I LOVE this idea!

When I was 12 and in the Boy Scouts, they used to teach us how to fire .22 rifles at summer camp. It was the most fun I had all summer, and I believe it made me the good shot that I am today.

I advocate teaching kids good gun safety and responsibility. Not long ago it used to be much more common among families than it is today.

[Spider Jerusalem]

81. I don't see anything wrong with this; I learned to shoot when I was younger than that.

It seems to me that in a rural state like Alaska, especially, this is something a good many of these kids may already know how to do.

And contrary to the hysteria of the article you posted, it is possible to learn to use firearms safely and responsibly...thousands of young boys (and girls, too) across the country are taught to shoot every year without killing themselves or anyone else.

[kineneb]

154. me too

Grandpa had hunting rifles, and wanted to make sure that I understood how lethal they could be. So I learned target shooting when I was about 9, with an antique .22 that belonged to my great-grandfather. We still have the gun.

Guns and cars are both dangerous. Gun safety and car safety should both be taught (and proper sex ed, too). Perhaps middle school is a bit young for group instruction. I knew fellow students in high school who went hunting with their families.

[bluedogyellowdog]

82. What's the problem with this?

My school, which was not in Alaska, taught us how to safely handle firearms in 7th grade as part of a hunter safety course.

Why is 6th grade too young and 7th grade somehow okay?

Oh, wait, I get it...this "gunguys.com" site is a Republican site pretending to be Democratic so they can destroy our chances at the polls by associating Democrats in the public mind with gun grabbers, a false association that the election a couple of weeks ago should have gone a long way toward dispelling. Right?

I for one believe this sort of firearms safety course should be mandatory for all students sometime around 6th-8th grade. Have a hunter safety course too, which should be optional (vegans don't have to take it), but the firearms safety class should be mandatory.

[WinkyDink]

83. SexEd is one thing, for schools must find ways to educate pregnant girls

as well as student mothers.

WHERE is the parallel with GUNS???

[scrinmaster]

92. I'd hope that the sex ed class

would inform them enough about birth control to not get pregnant in the first place. Likewise, the gun safety class would teach them about guns, so they wouldn't have any firearms related accidents.

[slackmaster]

99. Guns are an environmental hazard for American children

Just like rattlesnakes, black widow spiders, sexual predators, street drugs, drowning, and bad drivers.

Educating them cannot help but make them more aware of and therefore safer from all of these hazards.

[karlrschneider]

87. I think it is an excellent idea. I got my first gun for my 9th birthday

My dad taught me how to treat it...hundreds of guns later I have never had an incident.
edit: I also taught gun safety and marksmanship to both military and police recruits.

[madmusic]

88. Did he do this?

DEA agent shoots himself in the foot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP6UvNgbqIA

[XOKCowboy]

90. LOL Oh the irony! The DEA should know better

That dude broke a lot of the common rules of handgun safety and paid for it all because his ego took over. I just wish he'd have gotten just a little more macho and stuck it in his waist band!

I love how at the end when they show the assault rifle the kids are yelling "put it down!" LOL

[madmusic]

105. Too, too, funny! Was he bleeding on the floor?

And playing it cool? That's why I think it should up to parents to teach their kids gun safety. Must we rely on the government for everything?

[piedmont]

113. almost as bad as the ATF tackling christian ninjas in GA

(go to the link to figure out what the hell that means)
http://www.redandblack.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2006/04/12/443c71ed40b94

edit: spelling

[madmusic]

124. I remember that.

WTF? It's like time/place warp. Or like kids playing with a GI Joe and a Ken doll. Too weird.

[Minnesota_Lib]

161. Hey, nobody messes with Ninjas! Ninjas are totally awesome and flip out and kill people.

See for yourself!

http://www.realultimatepower.net/index4.htm

:rofl: This is one of the funniest parody sites on the net, IMO.

[walldude]

115. LMFAO... that is hilarious

And during a gun safety class no less.. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[benEzra]

136. "I'm the only one in this room professional enough..."

to shoot myself in the foot...

[spoony]

141. The best part is that he wanted another gun

Lol, he asked for a rifle I think and everyone was like, "no! no!" :rofl:

[MUSTANG_2004]

94. Learning is good.

And 6th grade is about the right age to learn gun safety. I see nothing wrong with it, especially if the parents can have their child opt-out. I see it as being on par as driver training or offering swim classes.

[LWolf]

96. At least half of my 6th graders take a

"hunter safety course" during their 6th grade year. Some take it earlier, or later. Such courses are traditional for rural families. They just don't take them at school. I'd prefer to keep it that way, myself.

[geniph]

102. I took a gun safety class when I was about 10

as did all my siblings. That was before the NRA was a bunch of nuts advocating a bizarre political agenda; it was back when they were still advocating responsible firearms ownership. And part of being a responsible firearm owner is learning how to handle it safely. I still remember some of the things they taught us (like the Four Rules someone already posted above), how to safely cross a hedge, fence, or other obstacle while carrying a firearm, how to safely clean a weapon, things like that. I don't see any more problem with that than I do with teaching driver safety classes.

Look, I'd be happy if every firearm in the world disappeared overnight and they just didn't exist anymore. But this isn't fantasyland, and I don't see that happening in this society, unless we go the way of ultra-repressive fascist government. Since we do live in the world we do, I own a gun myself; a shotgun, in my home.

Saying guns are never safe around children is just uninformed hysteria. There is an appropriate age for children to learn to respect firearms and handle them safely. None of the kids I knew who took the NRA firearm safety course accidentally shot anyone. On the other hand, I did know a couple of kids who hadn't taken the course who DID find a firearm and accidentally shoot someone. (One was a dumb city kid who found dad's gun and was "playing" around, showing off, and shot his little brother. The other was taken hunting without the proper training, tripped while carrying a loaded weapon and shot someone else.) All of us kids knew where the guns were, and knew what the consequences would be if we fooled around with any of them without permission. (My dad didn't fool around, so you did NOT mess with his stuff.)

[slaveplanet]

103. I remember training for marksman

at the local YMCA back in the 70's...Yes 10 year olds with .22 cal carbines at the local young mens christian association indoor range. They also had real 22's at those local traveling fairs...3 well placed shots and you could win a Honda mini trail. BB gun wars were a rite of passage in those days. We were also allowed to handle fairly large knives in boy scouts.

“Kids ought to be approached from a solid educational perspective and not discover guns on their own,” Milliron said.

I actually agree with this. We have driver training don't we? I really looked forward to my weekly visit to the Y. When taught properly with strict supervision, a crucial respect is developed. I really can't believe my parents went for it at the time, they've never owned a firearm. I wouldn't dare dream of asking for one either, that was just not going to happen until I was in charge of my own life, but I'm still glad they let me enroll.

[RB TexLa]

106. Sounds about the age I learned to shoot

I learned from my father ( who was a La certified hunter safety trainer)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

107. Actually I See No Problem With This Whatsoever.

Any kid knows how to fire a gun, so it's not like this course is going to all of a sudden enable them. It is always valuable to educate somebody to the proper way to use something safely. Sure, there may be no perfect world 100% safe rule with a gun, as it always can be a deadly weapon. But as far as educating someone to proper safety protocol, there is nothing but positives in doing so. Like I said, anyone even in 3rd grade knows how to pull a trigger, but at least by teaching the course the 6th graders can learn some important things about gun safety. It's actually quite responsible in my opinion. I say good for them.

[Redneck Socialist]

109. Sounds like a good idea to me

:shrug:

I wish we had a shooting class when I was a kid.

[uppityperson]

110. Students have access to guns, teaching them safety is good. Former AK resident here

I lived in AK for 6 1/2 yrs, mostly in Juneau, but some interior and some out in the bush in SE in bear country. Had many bear encounters, some scary, some funny. My partner and I had a bear rifle, though I do not have any gun (except bb) since moving back outside. I think this is a good idea.

It may have been the first time many of these kids had touched a gun, but a good thing to teach them how to be safe since they are GROWING INTO TEENAGERS and most will have access to a gun or friends with access to a gun and they should know how to deal with it safely.

The only way you can keep kids away from guns is have no guns around. Teaching them in a safe, chaperoned environment seems much better than having them discover how to use them on their own.

[piedmont]

114. Sounds great. Practical, useful knowledge that may prevent injuries.

[Hippo_Tron]

116. I shot guns at camp when I was 12 years old, riflery was an activity, and I'm 19

So this wasn't decades ago, it was fairly recent. They weren't BB guns either. We were allowed to shoot real guns with proper supervision and instruction. So far as I know there was never an incident because if there had been in this day and age, there would've been a lawsuit and the riflery program would no longer exist and possibly the same would be true of the camp itself.

I think that the sex education analogy is spot on. Just as it's better for kids to learn about sex in school than from pornography, it's better for them to learn about guns in school than from video games and movies.

[REP]

135. ZOMG! THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!!1!!1

Get a grip. In the wilds of Kansas City, MO my Loved One learned marksmanship at age 8; by the time he was in high school, he took his rifle with him to school as he was on the rifle team. I was taught how to use a gun about age 10 and spent countless hours practicing with a BB pistol. To this day, we have yet to go on any shooting sprees - nor have any of our contemporaries. I suppose it could still happen...

[aikoaiko]

140. I just noticed that this was snipped from the "gunguys" == they are anti-intellectual freaks.

nt.

[donsu]

152. LOL what a silly thing to say

nt

[Jeffersons Ghost]

142. dad first began teaching me gun safety at that age... let's get rid of some more rights...

the 4th amendment isn't enough... what we need is more key-pad safety in America! more computer control will reduce online debates where dissenting opinions may surface. damn, this exchange of ideas is getting out of control I tell ya!

[Javaman]

153. I was doing target shooting when I was 10.

I used a .22 and really enjoyed it.

However, it was after I had completed supervised gun training and safety instruction.

As an adult, I don't care for guns for target shooting or otherwise. Personal choice. However, I do believe that going through a gun safety course would not only be educational but enlightening.

Just because I don't care for guns any longer doesn't mean I don't want to be ignorant about them.

[davepc]

155. guyguys = gun control AstroTurf organization

Founded by the Freedom States Alliance

The Freedom States Alliance is changing the way America thinks about guns in order to build and mobilize a grassroots movement. By raising money, organizing supporters, and sponsoring Internet and public education campaigns on behalf of gun violence prevention organizations, the Freedom States Alliance is reframing and redefining public perceptions of the gun issue.

Building a true grassroots movement is the only way the Freedom States Alliance can channel money and resources directly to advocates working in the trenches to turn the tide of the gun violence epidemic. Our new grassroots approach includes creative and aggressive outreach, local and statewide media campaigns, and utilizing the Internet to organize supporters and to raise financial support.

Changing the Way Americans Think About Guns
Before America can enact significant policies to reduce gun violence we must challenge the belief that our citizens are safe in a country flooded with deadly guns; from junk handguns and cop-killing assault weapons to deadly sniper rifles and weapons designed for the battlefield. We have to engage in a dialog about whether Americans can be truly free when gun violence terrorizes our communities, destroys our families, and plagues our nation.

http://www.freedomstatesalliance.com/mission.php

(emphasis added)

In other words, they want to make you afraid. Once you're afraid you'll be willing to support their anti-gun legislation, because they'll sell it to you as a way to make you safe.

Right out of the Neo-conservative playbook. TERR-AH TERR-AH TERR-AH. You better be scared from this EVIL MENNANCE that only we can protect you from!

Recipients of the Freedom States Alliance

CeaseFire NJ
www.ceasefirenj.org

Citizens for a Safer Minnesota
www.endgunviolence.com

Hoosiers Concerned About Gun Violence
www.hcgv.org

Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence
www.ichv.org

Iowans for the Prevention of Gun Violence
www.ipgv.org

New England Coalition to Prevent Gun Violence
www.redflagcampaign.net

New Yorkers Against Gun Violence
www.nyagv.org

Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence
www.ohioceasefire.org

Wisconsin Anti-Violence Effort Educational Fund
www.waveedfund.org

The Freedom States Alliance gets some of its funding via grants from the Joyce Foundation, which among other causes gives money to things like:

2006 Gun Violence Grants

Children’s Memorial Hospital
Chicago, IL $60,000
To support the continued development and expansion of the Illinois Violent Death Reporting System. (1 yr.)

Children’s Memorial Hospital
Chicago, IL $41,800
To educate the public, policymakers, and data providers about the importance of the National Violent Death Reporting System. (1 yr.)

International Association of Chiefs of Police
Alexandria, VA $174,788
To expand a Midwest-based advisory group of law enforcement leaders interested in promoting gun violence prevention policies and practices, and to plan a possible regional summit of Midwest law enforcement, elected officials, and other stakeholders on gun violence prevention. (9 mos.)

Mayor’s Fund to Advance New York City
New York, NY $175,000
To organize a coalition of mayors from around the country to promote national, state, and local policies, litigation, and law enforcement strategies aimed at reducing the flow of illegal guns into cities. (1 yr.)

National Foundation for the Centers for Disease Control & Prevention, Inc.
Atlanta, GA $168,547
To develop an automated query system for the National Violent Death Reporting System. (2 yrs.)

Violence Policy Center
Washington, DC $700,000
For general support and its continued research, public education, and technical assistance to promote gun policy reform in 2007, particularly in Illinois and Wisconsin. (18 mos.)

2005 Gun Violence Grants

Harvard University
School of Public Health
Boston, MA $700,000
To support the Harvard Injury Control Research Center’s technical assistance to the National Violent Death Reporting System, to conduct policy-relevant firearm research, and to increase its communications capacity. (2 yrs.)

Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence
Chicago, IL $325,000
For continued support of its public, media, and policy-maker education efforts to promote firearm policy reform in Illinois. (1 yr.)

Johns Hopkins University School of Hygiene and Public Health
Baltimore, MD $181,117
To share research findings on strategies for reducing gun violence with Chicago and Milwaukee city officials, law enforcement, advocates, and the media. (2 yrs.)

Legal Community Against Violence
San Francisco, CA $380,000
For general support. (2 yrs.)

Mark Karlin & Associates
Chicago, IL $650,000
To support the continued efforts of its Freedom States Alliance, a project to promote financial self-sufficiency and effective media, public, and policy-maker education efforts among gun violence prevention groups, especially those in Illinois and Wisconsin.
(18 mos.)

National Opinion Research Center
Chicago, IL $39,499
To add a selection of gun-related questions to its 2006 General Social Survey. (2 yrs.)

University of Pennsylvania
Firearm & Injury Center at Penn
Philadelphia, PA $300,000
To develop a national research agenda on firearms, to support and conduct interdisciplinary firearms research, and to help translate research into policy and practice. (18 mos.)

Violence Policy Center
Washington, DC $450,000
To provide research and technical assistance to Midwest-based gun violence prevention advocates. (1 yr.)

WAVE Educational Fund
Milwaukee, WI $250,000
To continue its public, policy-maker, and media education efforts to prevent firearm violence in Wisconsin. (1 yr.)

2004 Gun Violence Grants

Boston University
School of Public Health
Boston, MA $40,000
To support the Join Together Gun Violence Prevention Project. (6 mos.)

Children’s Memorial Hospital
Chicago, IL $100,000
For its Child Health Data Lab to support the development and implementation of the Illinois Violent Death Reporting System and the state’s reapplication for federal funding next year. (1 yr.)

Citizens for a Safer Minnesota Education Fund
St. Paul, MN $90,000
To support its efforts to change cultural attitudes and norms in support of firearms policies that protect children and promote public health, and to expand the organization’s membership and funding base. (1 yr.)

Citizens for a Safer Minnesota Education Fund
St. Paul, MN $32,000
To support gun violence prevention policies in Minnesota. (6 mos.)

Consumer Federation of America
Washington, DC $75,000
To educate the public and policy makers about the public health and safety impact of failing to regulate guns, particularly assault weapons, as consumer products. (9 mos.)

Entertainment Industries Council, Inc.
Reston, VA $125,000
To work with the entertainment community to accurately and responsibly address gun violence on television. (18 mos.)

Fenton Communications
New York, NY $175,000
To provide communications and public relations support to promote the expansion of the National Violent Death Reporting System across all 50 states with particular focus on promoting its expansion into midwestern states including Indiana, Ohio, and Iowa.
(2 yrs.)

Handgun-Free America
Arlington, VA $35,000
To coordinate and support efforts on college campuses to educate students, the public, and policy makers about the dangers of civilian access to assault weapons. (1 yr.)

Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence
Chicago, IL $300,000
To create a new network of state-based gun violence prevention groups. (1 yr.)

Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence
Chicago, IL $400,000
To educate the public about the risks of guns in the home and to enhance its media and communications presence (including on the Internet), its statewide organizing, and coalition building, and its funding and membership base. (1 yr.)

Indiana University
Department of Pediatrics
Indianapolis, IN $150,000
To develop a statewide firearm death and injury data collection system and to position the state to apply for National Violent Death Reporting System funding. (1 yr.)

Indiana University
Department of Pediatrics
Indianapolis, IN $40,000
To support the Indiana Partnership to Prevent Gun Violence. (1 yr.)

Iowans for the Prevention of Gun Violence
Cedar Rapids, IA $250,000
For its work at the state and national level to promote public health strategies to prevent gun-related deaths and injuries. (2 yrs.)

Legal Community Against Violence
San Francisco, CA $125,000
To provide legal assistance to state and local policy makers and advocates working on gun violence prevention measures and to launch a national membership program for lawyers. (18 mos.)

Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence
Toledo, OH $200,000
For continued support of its efforts as a statewide resource on gun violence prevention, and to build its organizational funding and membership base. (2 yrs.)


Ohio State University Foundation
John Glenn Institute for Public Service & Public Policy
Columbus, OH $125,000
To host a symposium at Stanford Law School on the connections between the Second Amendment and the Fourteenth Amendment, to publish papers in a major law review, and disseminate findings via the Web. (2 yrs.)

PAX
New York, NY $200,000
To pilot and evaluate the Asking Saves Kids Campaign’s impact on public knowledge, attitudes, and behaviors related to gun ownership and accessibility in Rockford and Joliet, Illinois. (2 yrs.)

Physicians for Social Responsibility
Washington, DC $100,000
To train, expand, and mobilize its membership around firearm injury prevention with a particular focus on assault weapons and on the nexus between firearms and domestic violence. (1 yr.)

University of California-Los Angeles
School of Public Health
Los Angeles, CA $250,000
To study the impact of California’s effortto implement firearm prohibitions that were part of the 1994 federal Violence Against Women Act. (2 yrs.)

University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, PA $200,000
To support its Firearm Injury Center’s research and dissemination activities. (18 mos.)

Violence Policy Center
Washington, DC $500,000
To provide research and technical assistance to Midwest-based gun violence prevention advocates. (1 yr.)

WAVE Educational Fund
Milwaukee, WI $250,000
To educate the public about the risks of guns in the home and to enhance its media and communications presence (including on the Internet), its statewide organizing, and coalition building, and its funding and membership base. (1 yr.)

WAVE Educational Fund
Milwaukee, WI $40,000
To support a coalition to reduce gun violence in Wisconsin. (6 mos.)



2003 Gun Violence Grants

Handgun Epidemic Lowering Plan (HELP) Network
Chicago, IL $120,000
To promote the expansion of the National Violent Death Reporting System and to help promote physician education and advocacy by defining a medical standard of care for gun violence prevention. (2 yrs.)

Harvard University
School of Public Health
Boston, MA $80,000
To conduct a national survey on gun ownership, storage trends, and attitudes regarding public health-oriented gun policy options. (1 yr.)

Mark Karlin & Associates
Chicago, IL $185,000
To help raise the media presence and capacity of Midwest gun violence prevention groups. (18 mos.)

New York Academy of Medicine
New York, NY $100,000
For its program Doctors Against Handgun Injury supporting a coalition of national medical societies to promote public health-oriented gun policies and practices. (2 yrs.)

Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence
Toledo, OH $150,000
For general support, including state and federal policy advocacy to prevent gun violence. (21 mos.)

Violence Policy Center
Washington, DC $500,000
To support its research, communication, advocacy, and outreach efforts promoting public health-oriented gun policy. (1 yr.)

WAVE Educational Fund
Milwaukee, WI $100,000
To promote public health-oriented gun policy in Wisconsin and nationally. (2 yrs.)

2002 Gun Violence Grants

Boston University, School of Public Health
Boston, MA $200,000
To support the Join Together Gun Violence Prevention Project, including its gun violence prevention website and on-line suite of services, and the provision of technical assistance to individuals and organizations interested in gun violence prevention. (2 yrs.)

Citizens for a Safer Minnesota Education Fund
St. Paul, MN $200,000
To support efforts to educate the public and policy makers about the need for gun violence prevention policies in Minnesota and to work toward their implementation. (27 mos.)

Consumer Federation of America Foundation
Washington, DC $400,000
To advocate for the treatment and regulation of guns as consumer products. (2 yrs.)

Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence
Chicago, IL $375,000
For continued support of the OnTarget Coalition, a network of organizations working to address gun violence as a public health issue in Illinois. (2 yrs.)

Indiana University
Department of Pediatrics
Indianapolis, IN $250,000
To support the Indiana Partnership to Prevent Firearm Violence, a project of Indiana University, for the development and implementation of the Indiana Firearm Injury and Fatality Reporting System. (2 yrs.)

Iowans for the Prevention of Gun Violence
Cedar Rapids, IA $250,000
To support efforts at the state and national level to promote public health policies to prevent gun related deaths and injuries. (21 mos.)

Mark Karlin & Associates
Chicago, IL $192,000
For publication of research results on gun violence. (2 yrs.)

Ohio State University Foundation
Department of History
Columbus, OH $399,967
For the creation of a comprehensive Second Amendment Research Center. (2 yrs.)

Physicians for Social Responsibility
Washington, DC $150,000
To support efforts aimed at organizing the medical and public health communities to educate their patients and policy makers about the dangers of keeping firearms in the home and the policies and practices that would reduce gun-related death and injury. (2 yrs.)

Violence Policy Center
Washington, DC $800,000
To support research, public education, communication, and advocacy efforts promoting public health oriented gun violence prevention policies. (18 mos.)



2001 Gun Violence Grants

Children's Memorial Foundation
Chicago, IL $150,000
For continued support of the Handgun Epidemic Lowering Plan (HELP) Network in promoting a public health approach to the epidemic levels of handgun-related death and injury. (2 yrs.)

Communication Works
San Francisco, California $300,000
To develop and execute a communications project entitled "From Raw Data to Injury Prevention: Building the Communications Pipeline," which provides media support to the Joyce-funded National Firearm Injury Statistics System. (2 yrs.)

Harvard University
School of Public Health
Boston, MA $425,000
To support the National Firearm Injury Statistics System in stimulating the establishment of a National Violent Death Reporting System. (2 yrs.)

Johns Hopkins University
School of Hygiene and Public Health
Baltimore, Maryland $600,000
For continued support of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research. (2 yrs.)

Legal Community Against Violence
San Francisco, California $150,000
To provide legal guidance to local and state officials, activists, and others seeking to enact, and defend in court, sound public health regulations of firearms. (2 yrs.)

National Academy of Sciences
National Research Council
Washington, DC $109,000
To improve research information and data on firearms. (2 yrs.)

National Association of State-Based
Child Advocacy Organizations
Washington, DC $733,249
To launch a three-year project called "Child Safe," designed to reduce the incidence of gun-related deaths and injuries suffered by children and their families. (3 yrs.)

Physicians for Social Responsibility
Washington, DC $100,000
To launch the public education and mobilization campaign, Faces of Firearms. (1 yr.)

Toledo Ecumenical Area Ministries
Toledo Metropolitan Mission
Toledo, Ohio $250,000
For continued support to the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence. (2 yrs.)

Uhlich Children's Home
Chicago, Illinois $50,000
To support the Hands Without Guns Program, a public health and education campaign designed to inform youth, influence peer behavior, and change public policy. (1 yr.)

University of California-Davis
Violence Prevention Research Program
Sacramento, CA $125,000
For general support and research. (18 mos.)

University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania $1,200,000
To strengthen the Firearm Injury Center and to expand the Medical Professionals as Advocates Program. (3 yrs.)

2000 Gun Violence Grants

Alliance for Justice, Inc.
Washington, DC $300,000
To support a focus on public policies to prevent gun violence in its First Monday Program, which mobilizes college, graduate, and law students to become informed advocates in a critical public policy issue. (2 yrs.)

Boston University School of Public Health
Boston, MA $358,378
To enable its Join Together organization to maintain and expand its gun violence prevention website and related services. (2 yrs)

Citizens for a Safer Minnesota Education Fund
St. Paul, Minnesota $300,000
To create the Gun Violence Organizing Project, a state-local partnership to step up the level of policy advocacy around gun violence prevention in Minnesota. (2 yrs.)

Communication Works, Inc.
San Francisco, California $560,122
To develop and implement communications strategies for promoting a public health-oriented gun policy of comprehensive health and safety regulation of the industry. (3 yrs.)

Duke University
Office of Research Support
Durham, North Carolina $339,133
For a study of how community gun ownership rates and gun-related policies affect the public health and safety within the community. (2 yrs.)

Entertainment Industries Council, Inc.
Reston, Virginia $28,890
For a planning grant to initiate broad-scale research into the media's influence on the public's perception of firearms, in order to determine the most effective courses of action to encourage accurate and responsible firearms depiction in the entertainment media. (6 mos.)

Harvard University School of Public Health
Boston, MA $325,000
To support young scholars working on firearm injury prevention research and the dissemination of findings. (3 yrs)

Iowans for the Prevention of Gun Violence
Cedar Rapids, IA $250,000
To coordinate efforts working with state and voluntary agencies to reduce firearms deaths and injuries in Iowa, with a particular emphasis on gun suicide. (2 yrs)

Loyola University
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Chicago, Illinois $44,261
For a study on illegal handgun distribution and availability in Chicago neighborhoods and their relationship to violent crime. (1 yr.)

Minnesota Institute of Public Health
Anoka, MN $296,594
For continuation of its efforts to reduce gun injuries and deaths in Minnesota, particularly focusing on the collection of gun violence data, state level legislation, and local policy development. (2 yrs)

National Association of State-Based Child Advocacy Organizations
Washington, DC $49,540
To launch the New Voices Initiative in 2001, intended to bring the voice of child advocates to the gun violence prevention arena. (9 mos)

National Opinion Research Center
Chicago, Illinois $197,661
For a supplement to the fifth annual survey of public attitudes on gun policy issues focusing on gun carrying. (1 yr.)

New York Academy of Medicine
New York, New York $750,000
For Doctors Against Handgun Injury (DAHI), a new coalition of learned medical societies and organizations dedicated to mobilizing the influence, authority, and clinical expertise of physicians to reduce handgun injury. (3 yrs.)

Physicians for Social Responsibility
Washington, DC $150,000
To involve medical and public health students and professionals in policy advocacy activities associated with the Alliance for Justice First Monday Program on Gun Violence in America. (1 yr.)

Toledo Ecumenical Area Ministries
Toledo Metropolitan Mission
Toledo, Ohio $33,200
To strengthen operations of the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence. (1 yr.)

University of California-Los Angeles, School of Public Health
Los Angeles, CA $132,787
To analyze and disseminate findings from the largest and most in-depth survey to date of access to, and use of, firearms among adolescents. (2 yrs)

Violence Policy Center
Washington, DC $1,000,000
To support its efforts to promote public health-oriented gun policy through research, public education, coalition building, and advocacy. (2 yrs)

Wisconsin Anti-Violence Effort (WAVE) Educational Fund
Milwaukee, Wisconsin $506,414
To develop and coordinate the policy-oriented activities of a multi-disciplinary coalition to reduce gun violence in Wisconsin. (3 yrs.)

http://www.joycefdn.org/

[Katzenjammer]

156. Not insane at all. My school had an NRA rifle club.

Our history teacher (an ex-WW2 bomber pilot and very, very liberal) was the sponsor. I went all the way up to somewhere in the Sharpshooter grade, I don't remember exactly where. I've never lost the skill I learned.

Nothing insane about it.

[JHB]

157. So? A lot of schools used to have shooting teams.

My old high school (in suburban Long Island, NY) has a firing range in its basement (although I didn't know that until years after attending). Students would bring their rifles (in rifle bags) to the school. Most of these were shut down by rising insurance liability costs rather than by actual incidents or prostests.

Maybe you ought to let that district decide what is appropriate for their kids.

[northofdenali]

160. All you folks should have seen the FITS pitched

when our Girl Scouts in Fairbanks were taught how to trap, skin, and tan beaver hides..........

[uppityperson]

162. UPjr, 2 1/2, standing on a box with a stick (in AK)

my sibling asked what was doing. Answer "hunting whales". Shocked silence by sib, then statement that whales are our friends and we don't hunt them. Then question to me as to whether or not 2 1/2 yr old really thought could hunt whales. I replied no, isn't an alaskan native so can't, and think of where we were and yes jr knew whales were our friends.