When you're mad at someone, do you shout racial or bigoted things at them?

[prolesunited]

I do not use curse words very often, but when I get very angry, certain words will fly out of my mouth unguarded. Shit. Damn. Fuck, if I've really reached my limit. Those words are part of my vocabulary, words that only come out from within when my anger overwhelms the part of me that I keep in check.

When driving in traffic, if somebody cuts me off or is driving aggressively, I will call them an asshole. Even if they were African-American, I would never use the n* word. It's not part of my vocabulary. It's not a word that is within me, so it would never accidentally "slip" out no matter how mad I was.

Do such words ever come out of your mouth when you're angry? Do you "accidentally" insult Muslims, Jews or homosexuals when you're mad or drunk?

If the n* word was not part of Richards' vocabulary or something buried within his psyche, the word would never have come out of his mouth.

It's no different than what happened with Mel Gibson. The excuse that I was angry or drunk just doesn't wash with me. Whatever comes out at that time *is* you at your most raw and basic level.

What I really don't get is how so many people are willing to give Richards a pass and would not do the same for Gibson? The only difference to me is that Gibson already was disliked and that was the final straw to write him off.

Racism and prejudice still exists. We need to be honest and take it out of the closet and examine it. These incidents give us the opportunity to do just that.

[Cleita]

1. I have been known to call them crazy or idiots, which if you

think about it is as much a slur as a racial slur.

[amitten]

5. No, because you didn't call them that because of their race. n/t

[Cleita]

24. Wouldn't you say it's bigoted though, like calling someone fat?

I think calling someone a name about something that they have no control over, like their race or religion, sex or if they are fat, or crazy or idiots is bigoted. If you call someone any of those names who aren't those things then it's a put down and still bigoted. IMHO.

[bloom]

35. Yeah - we need better words

Or better insults.

Heck - even calling obnoxious people Toddlers is an insult to Toddlers.


I've noticed that I'm inclined to say something is nuts or crazy or what-have-you and I don't think it a very good thing to say, either.


A lot of times we are insulting a white, sane, very normal sort of person who happens to be an obnoxious jerk. But we say all these other things.

[lumberjack_jeff]

87. I've heard lots of people, including here, use "retard".

I find it equally offensive.

[wtmusic]

2. Some people see the mistake as being one of indiscretion

I don't get it. :shrug:

[Hardrada]

3. The old phrase is "In vino veritas."

In wine is the truth (about someone).

[LostinVA]

36. Yup, and I think that's totally true

[amitten]

4. Agreed. If you use racial slurs in anger, you're a racist.

A racist is someone who thinks people of another race are, in some way, beneath them. That's it.

If you use someone's race as an insult against them, whether in anger or otherwise, you are by definition a racist. Because if you didn't think the race was beneath you, you wouldn't consider it an insult.

[Forrest Greene]

22. What If

...you used a racial slur tactically, to hurt someone, without sincerely believing the slur or its implications? You'd be a jerk, to be sure, but would you be a racist?

[EFerrari]

84. Bingo.

DUers don't seem to understand that. And add to it that the locker room of stand up comedy is home to language that would make most people's skin blister off. And none of it is serious or, only very rarely.

Racists, not so much. Jerks -- 'way overrepresented. :evilgrin:

[SmokingJacket]

6. Of course not. People don't suddenly acquire Tourette's

syndrome when they're angry or drunk.

There's a LOT of unexamined racism in this country. In every country, actually, but we seem to be especially good at denying its existence.

People are probably giving him a pass because they liked his character on Seinfeld, a lot. I did too -- but I can like the character without liking the obviously screwed up actor portraying him.

[Robbien]

7. I've never said the f word.

You know the f word in wtf.

That said, I get your point. The nasty racial words have to be in the spoken language center of your psyche for them to come out in moments of stress. They do not just slip out from nowhere.

No pass being given here.

[Horse with no Name]

8. There is a difference

and excuse me for being crass but I have seen the difference.
Someone can be a "fucking idiot", but where is the need to call them "a fucking n* idiot"?
Those words do not exist in my vocabulary and how I look at people.
Therefore those words would NOT "slip" out, because they aren't used.
I share an analogy of why I think just saying "I'm sorry" isn't always good enough.
I can shoot you and tell you I am sorry. What good does it do? You are dead and my apology doesn't make that any better. The same when you decide to use hurtful racial epithets. Your apology doesn't make it any better.
I am sure he is sorry he said it. However, I am not convinced he didn't mean it.

[murphymom]

9. My take on the whole Richards thing

Standup comedy is interactive, and a good comic should know how to work his/her audience and defuse hecklers - it's part of the job. Plus, if a heckler situation should get out of control, that's why clubs and entertainment venues have bouncers and security people. As far as I'm concerned, he's got no excuse for what he did.

[KansDem]

40. Agreed, 100%...

...a good comic should know how to work his/her audience and defuse hecklers - it's part of the job.

I don't know this Richards guy--I never watched Seinfeld--but I do know from the video that he appears to be a "no-class act." Good comics can and will defuse hecklers in ways that will not only put the audience at ease, but might even become part of the act. In essence, hecklers can be silenced without the comic missing a beat. But, sadly, Mr. Richards lacks this skill. I believe (from what I've seen and heard) he should seek another line of work.

[twilight_sailing]

10. Nope.

When I am terribly angry everything and everyone is a mf. That's about it.

[hsher]

11. No

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. No.

And if I did, I'd be a bigot.

I don't see much reason to be arguing over Richard's bullshit "apology."

[irv_now]

13. I agree. No excuses.

I agree. No matter how angry or drunk you are, there is no excuse for racist comments or insults. Once it's said, it's already out there. Some things you just can't apologize for. All you can do is say, on some level I must be racist, or I wouldn't have said that, and then work on yourself (like the unfortunate Mr. Richards!) I personally can be quite hot-headed, but I've never been remotely tempted to use an ethnic, racial or minority-based slur against someone. Although I've called someone an asshole, (mostly my ex-husband), I don't think that's acceptible either. I think we should all work on a policy of no name-calling whatsoever. That way it's never an issue!

That said, racial or other of stereotypes are also unacceptible, but I find them to be a bigger problem. Many people who don't consider themselves racist or bigoted will talk about "jewing someone down" or something similar. And I know many "non-racists" who have a big problem with "towelheads!" It's hard to know what to say to someone making these comments, but I think a good response is: "What do you mean?" Let them try to dig their way out!

[ieoeja]

14. It depends.

Did they give me some reason to believe that which made me angry was caused by THEIR bigotry? If so, then I might respond in kind.

I haven't actually done so. But when I have been refused service because of the color of my skin, those words were among the first to come to mind.

[prolesunited]

21. It shouldn't depend

And, since when does someone else's bigotry demand a like response? Two wrongs make a right, how?

Perhaps you can find it within yourself to transcend such ugliness. We can only stop these things when we take it upon ourself to eliminate it from our words, deeds, thoughts and hearts.

[patcox2]

15. I have.

And I am not a racist. Guess I am just not a saint like everyone else around here.

To think, nobody here ever called anyone a "retard" or a "faggot" or a "guinea bastard." Not even a "redneck" or "hillbilly," I suppose.

[prolesunited]

18. I don't pretent to be saintly

but I don't call people retards or faggots either.

You may *think* you're not a racist, and I'm sure you aren't outwardly so, but if you truly examine your feelings and attitudes, at some level you feel these terms are defensible and they simply aren't. If you understood and internalized the meanings and pain such words have caused, they would not be part of your vocabulary.

It doesn't take a "saint" not to call someone a n* -- even if you're angry or drunk.

And, no, you can't even put the n word on the same level as redneck or hillbilly. Last time I checked, the country did not have a record of enslaving, hanging or institutionally discriminating against rednecks or hillbillies. (And, for the record, I don't speak negatively about entire classes of people, and that includes people who are overweight or ugly or whatever.)

[Forrest Greene]

26. Hillbillies

"...the country did not have a record of enslaving, hanging or institutionally discriminating against rednecks or hillbillies..."

Might want to check with the Peabody Coal Company about that.

[wtmusic]

31. It's that clan-based bullshit which is a kissing cousin to patriotism nt

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[prolesunited]

41. You misread what I wrote

"If you understood and internalized the meanings and pain such words have caused, they would not be part of your vocabulary."

To clarify, I am not talking about where you picked up the words and why they are in your vocabulary. I was saying that if you internalized (meaning truly understood with compassion and empathy) what this word means, you would not use it.

And, you're last statement is just ludicrous. You are say that it's the fault of black people that whites still call them n* because they use the word themselves?!?!? That if they stopped using it, it would magically disappear from our lexicon. I highly doubt that's the case.

It's all a matter of context. It's one thing when African-Americans use it. It's part of reclaiming the word and the language to take the power out of it. It's entirely different when a white person calls someone that if they are made. If you can't see the difference, I don't know what else I can say.

[bloom]

44. I saw the thread you tried to have about this.

What you don't get is that there is a difference between a group of people who have been oppressed (you seem to be in denial about oppression) by white men (read this if you forgot - it didn't' end there, either):

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/llst:@field (DOCID+@lit(llst022div3))

(you may have to paste in the end of the link)


When a group that has been or continues to be oppressed uses a derogatory word that the oppressors have used against their group - that is a way of owning that word. It's like women who uses the word bitch - as in BitchPhD - it's her owning the word and redefining it how she wants. It's not an invitation to sexist assholes to use the word. If sexist assholes want to use the word - they continue to be sexist assholes whether women use the word themselves or not. It's not the same connotation for sexist assholes to use it as it is for women to use it.

People who are not sexist assholes (or racist assholes) understand these things.

People who understand the dynamics of the domination culture who are not in the oppressed group - don't use the words that have been used against oppressed groups. Because that is like saying that you want the domination to continue.

First you have to stop being in denial.

[QuestionAll...]

96. no saint here, as well...

but I am progressing.
don't recall calling anyone a 'faggot' or 'nigger' as an insult, but had to do some work on myself for the 'hillbilly' and 'retard'. Hard to unlearn some stupid stuff, it is.
Now working on 'repugnicant' and dirivitives.

[Ezlivin]

16. No. I shoot at them

Fuck words when you have a fully loaded gun.

Naturally, I'm exaggerating.

I only point unloaded guns at people.

:)

[lapfog_1]

17. Nope... sorry assed M***F***

is about my limit, however I will cop to using the b-word and even the c-word if I'm really angry at a woman... but never to her face or in public. So I can be guilty of the same crime as Richards, just gender based irrationality, not religion or race. OTOH, it's not the same because it's never to their face and not in public.

Oh, and I can get very inventive when I'm angry at people like our dear leader and his cronies. Which has been almost daily for the past six years.

Anyway, my guess is that Richards really CAN feel that way about black or brown people, and his tirade let some of those thoughts and feelings escape.

And let me add one more thing. I love comedians like Dave Chappelle, even when he is doing some of his most racist shtick (either racist about black people or racist about white people). But, that being said, the general usage of the n-word by blacks towards other blacks is something that shouldn't be promoted. By doing that, it catapults that word into the mainstream again... so if it truly offends a black person to hear it, what difference should it make who is calling them that name?

[jannyk]

19. Personally, it wasn't the use of the word

nigger, a word that is heard so often at comedy clubs, that was so telling, - it was the venom and rage while using it that had more effect on me.

I found the other two remarks, the one which said something about "50 years ago we'd have had a fork up your arse" and the other, "that's what you get when you interupt the white man" much more disturbing and revealing of hidden resentment and hatred.

That is one angry, bitter man. Probably, if they had been arabs, hindus, women or jews he would have gone off on a similar tirade - we'll never know.

It can't be easy going from a tv 'superstar' back to playing small comedy clubs for a living. Richards is a 'has-been', a 'one hit wonder' and, at 57 he knows it. It's almost impossible to put that giant ego back into the box and just move on.

So is he a racist? Sure sounds like it from what I saw, but more importantly he's a bitter, angry man with major rage issues.

[Bobbieo]

23. If you think in racial terms when you are calm

then you certainly will use them in anger! You are a racist!!!!

[jannyk]

38. Would you care to explain

the point you are trying to make. Because from reading your post it appears you are calling me a racist. I'd just like that clarified.

[salin]

90. I think the "you" was the universal form

if reread the post and replace the "you" with generic "one" (as in a person) it reads more like a generalized statement - that is how I read the post, not a "you" as in jannyk, but as in "you" = "any person".

[shadowknows69]

20. Asshole pretty much covers it for me.

I see all people in shades of asshole not skin color. B-)

[Cleita]

25. Good point! Everyone has one so you aren't name calling as

such. Well, you are but it's equal opportunity name calling.

[anarch]

27. well, I think I've called someone a "goddamn drunken mick" before,

but the same thing could be said about me, so I don't know if that counts.


Yeah, I don't buy the "I was just angry...or drunk" excuse either.

[Minnesota_Lib]

57. I was once called a "no account, lazy, drunken mick"...so untrue. I was sober at the time

[slackmaster]

28. I haven't for a very long time

When driving in traffic, if somebody cuts me off or is driving aggressively, I will call them an asshole. Even if they were African-American, I would never use the n* word.

I confess there were a couple of occasions where I did so in the distant past. I had a budding problem with road rage. A good psychologist who specialized in treating men knew exactly the right words to say to me to help get control over those impulses.

[jannyk]

45. How on earth do you know they are

'african-american' just by looking at them?

One of my best friends is Jamaican. She abhors being referred to as 'african-american' just because she is black. It really pisses her off - she's as proud of being Jamaican as you are of being American and it is an insult to her.

I had some black friends come visit from London and they felt the same way. It's a very jingoistic term and very insulting to those proud of their own nationality. They much prefer the term 'black' if they have to be labeled at all.

My own daughter has to deal with generically being referred to as 'amerasian'. She's not, she's of British/Chinese parents - so where does anyone get off labelling her amerasian by default.

This is not a personal tirade at you. I just want people to be aware that PC terms quite often aren't.

[slackmaster]

46. You can't always tell

And it doesn't matter. A bigoted comment is always inappropriate.

[alcibiades_mystery]

29. I sometimes use the C*** word when I'm really pissed

But I apply it equally to men and women, like the British. Still, it pisses the wife off something terrible (I never apply it to her).

[noamnety]

75. You should listen to your wife

calling a man a c*** doesn't make it less offensive to women. The reason it's an insult to call a man that is because it's an attack on his masculinity (not saying that's your conscious thought process, just that's what it comes from). No worse way to insult a man than by calling him a woman - with the one exception calling him that "dirty nasty" part of a woman.

Googling here: "He's a c***." over 10,000 hits, and the first page is solidly examples of it being used just as you'd expect.
"She's a dick" 379 hits. Less then 5% of the other phrase. And most of that is the lyrics from a song of that name.
"She's a prick" 56 hits. Most of which is "she's a prick teaser."

That's because the c*** insult gets its power from being sexist. It's not nearly the same as calling a woman a dick, because on some level, calling a woman a dick (giving her masculinity) is a step up from her current social standing.


I can't really imagine being a guy and screaming that at another guy, and then trying to explain to my wife why calling a man a c*** isn't disrespecting her.

[alcibiades_mystery]

77. Tell me something I didn't know when I got up this morning

...

[noamnety]

80. Sorry, I must have misunderstood something

I thought "But I apply it equally to men and women" was included to convince us you don't use it in a totally sexist way (like arguing the N word isn't racist if you use it in anger at a white person?) and "I never apply it to her" was supposed to show she shouldn't take it personally or something. I thought it was like a little disclaimer to show that even if you use the word, you don't really use it in such a bad way.

But now I don't know why those statements are in there if that wasn't it. Were you saying you understand it's equally offensive even under those circumstances?

[alcibiades_mystery]

85. Yup

Equally offensive. Thanks for the lecture on the obvious, though.

[Javaman]

30. Oh all the time, I find it the most effective way to get my point across...

:sarcasm:

[Rockholm]

32. There are racists everywhere. WORLDWIDE.

This thread and all of the threads regarding this creep are OVERKILL.

There are southern Democrats who use the "n" word. There are southern republicans who use the "n" word. There are northerners who are just as racist as their southern counterparts who use the "n" word.

Funny, in most of this thread's discussion, people have been saying "the 'n' word" as opposed to nigger. There has been little if any hesitation to writing "faggot." This thread is not laced with descriptions of the "f" word. (Faggot vs. fuck)

People USE that word. It is a word that is meant to hurt. And for those who are black, I am sure it does hurt. Faggot hurts my ears just as much.

Maccaca all over again.

Macacca = Nigger

Guess we will not see Brian Williams of Paula Zahn talking about that.

[jannyk]

47. Faggot is meatball

I grew up in England and we had faggots on our menu at least once a week. Faggots are a large meatball (contents still a mystery), simmered and served in gravy - yum

Fags on the other hand, come in packs of 20, are usually filter tipped and highly addictive. When one has run out and wishes to borrow one from a fellow smoker, one would say "can I bum a fag".

When I was growing up "Gay" was not known. Homosexuals were referred to as pansies, ginger (cockney rhyming slang 'ginger beer = queer) but mostly just homos.

So when I hear faggots I think school lunch and when you hear pansy, you think of pretty flowers.

It's not the word, it's the context.

[Rockholm]

52. Well, you must not be gay then.

If you are gay then no matter where you are from, faggot is an offensive term. I guess you do know where/how/why the word fag originated?

[jannyk]

55. It's not that I'm not gay, it's that I'm not American

this is meant to amuse you - it made friends here in San Francisco chuckle and they all emailed it out to their friends.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2698507.stm

If you mean that the US derogatory term 'faggot' came from the burning at the stake thingy, it's pretty much debunked. In many parts of England we still call bundles of starter wood/kindling faggots - because that's what they are. I've heard the same kindling referred to as 'fat wood' in the states, but I've never heard fat people getting all upset about it.

I had never heard it used as an epithet until I came to the States. However, the first guy that told me I had a nice fanny got a smack in the mouth and you probably know why.

It's not the word, it's the context and the intent of the user.

[jannyk]

58. Oh I forgot

you asked about the word 'fag'. It has two (possibly more) meanings in standard english.

One is a noun 'a fag' usage "I just smoked my last fag down to the fag end".

The other is a verb as in 'to fag' which was the public school (Eaton, Harrow and such) version of servitude by junior boys to seniors. Those performing the chores were also known as fags. This practice had a very long and somewhat tawdry history (if you've ever read David Copperfield)you'll note Steerforth's abuse of the younger boys. It was abolished 20 or 30 years ago.

[atreides1]

34. No

I generally refer to them as a dumbass!

[RC Quake]

37. When I'm angry with my spouse

"Kraut" gets tossed around.

[stanwyck]

76. not as bad as my

being called a Nazi by my family. Not sure if it's my German heritage or how I act, particularly around the holidays. I guess I get a little bossy.

[JuniperLea]

39. Someone here called me a FReeper piece of shit

Post stands... FReeper piece of shit is now my favorite thing to call people who piss me off:)

[walldude]

42. Uh... no. I find I am clever enough to insult someone without

resorting to using race, nationality or religion as a weapon...

[rucky]

43. I might be prejudiced against clowns...

because my prejorative of choice when I'm angry is "ass clown"

[earth mom]

48. What is telling to me is that...

Jerry Seinfeld stood by his friend on Letterman. Jerry does know him better than the rest of us and I hardly think Jerry would stand by him if he thought he was a through and through racist. Has anyone ever heard this kind of talk from Richards before? I haven't and though what Richards said was a horrible and vile thing to say-and I am NOT defending Richards in any way so spare me the angry replies-I just don't think we can be the ones to decide one way or another whether Richards is a "total" racist or not at this point.

To me, this situation is different than what happened with Mel Gibson, because Gibson made The Passion of the Christ which many Jewish people felt was anti-semitic AND his father was a very well known Holocaust denier. At the point when Gibson made his anti-semitic tirade in Malibu, it was really like 3 strikes = Mel is an out and out racist.

[robcon]

49. Being angry or drunk doesn't "cause" racist words.

Those conditions can, however, cause a racist to utter words he/she wouldn't say otherwise in public.

[Hardrada]

50. I can't think of any epithets about Scandinavians (my background)

though I was somewhat annoyed when in one of the failed shows of Julia Louise-Dreyfus there was a handyman named "Sven" or something like that. Scandinavian-Americans were "handymen" maybe a century ago but that was only a temporary rung in the immigrant ladder upwards that used to exist.

[bloom]

72. I noticed a book once

where someone was complaining about the Danish immigrants - saying they were lazy drunks or something.

It surprised me in a way - but it also seems that that is the way - most groups are denigrated initially - until they become part of the culture. The ones who don't or can't are the ones who continue to suffer the insults and discrimination. That's why it different for people's whose appearance sets them apart.


Also - I think that the way "Vikings" are described as looters is because it was the English writing the history - and that's the way they saw it. And so we have the "Hagar the Horrible" cartoon.

It seems that other groups are cast in a more favorable light - when they didn't have more favorable behavior - if you look at it objectively.

Like why is Napolean glorified? or the Romans? But not the Mongols. It doesn't make sense to me - except to figure that history is skewed in favor of the writers of history and how they see it.

[Hardrada]

74. Yes, it's who writes the history. If the Vikings had not landed

in England to check it out but only attacked (and they did attack) the Irish, the Brits would probably be full of praise for the Norsemen.

[salin]

91. You Lutefisk Eater!

:D

from one of Scandanavian descent to another :D

[mtnester]

51. No, I insult perfectly fine assholes, dickheads, fuckers, shitheads

with equality always ...these are my favorite insults, particularly when in a car.

I left two out because I do not want to start a war about moms and women.

So obviously no.

[SalmonChantedEvening]

60. All of the above plus dunce

My favorite word to bellow :rofl:

[Alfalfa Wolf]

53. I am a black man...

I think Michael Richards f---ed up big time. Do I think he's a racist? Not really, at least not in the sense that Hitler was, or in the sense that David Duke, Jesse Helms, George Allen, Tom Metzger and Trent Lott are. Those guys are hardcore racists. In my opinion, Michael Richards was an angry white man who f---ed up. I doubt if I'd invite him to Sunday dinner, but I'm not worried about him burning crosses out on my front lawn; he'd get an assful of buckshot if he ever tried....I'm a believer in the 2nd Amendment. ;-)

[meisje]

56. You're just not letting your emotions control your opinions

That will never fly on DU!

[Alfalfa Wolf]

62. I know what you're talking about...

...the things some people are saying on this board are not the most rational, sane comments in the world :eyes:

[EFerrari]

83. Welcome to DU, Alfalfa Wolf

:hi:

[WinkyDink]

54. Never in 57 years of living. I basically say "a-hole", just like that.

"Ya MORON" is a fave as well.

[porphyrian]

59. I always yell "honky!"

That way, it confuses everyone and I can exit stage left. Heh, heh, honky is such a funny word...

[jannyk]

65. I love that word

the first time I heard it I was in Texas and a black woman who thought I'd cut in line (I hadn't) called me a 'honkey'. I asked her to repeat it and then I absolutely cracked up - I thought it was so cute. It's funny, when she heard my english accent she completely changed her attitude and we all ended up laughing together.

[superconnected]

61. nope, never picked out a particular race. Always a general

dumbass, asshole etc.

[BlackVelvet04]

63. My favorite insult is jackass. n/t

[leftofthedial]

64. only if they're a Mick or a Polack

or maybe a Bohunkey

[jannyk]

66. Why are there no decent white

epithets?

I can think of only half-assed ones that have no ooomph. There's honkey (that always cracks me up), whitey, cracker (I've never got a good explanation of that one), white trash/trailer trash (but they seem more socio/economic).

The chinese call us ghosts, but that doesn't hit home either.

Why have the non white races not been able to find a 'word' that hurts us?

Except perhaps for the word....racist?

[prolesunited]

69. Umm...

because they are not in the majority and do not have the power to do so. They don't control the dialog. They have not been in the position to subjagate entire groups of people and use words to dehumanize them so that the white ruling class won't feel so bad for either participating in or allowing such abuse because the members of the groups they abuse are not the "chosen people."

Other than that, I'm not sure what your point is.

[MrSlayer]

71. Bingo.

Thanks for saving me the trouble. Well put.

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. Epiphets carry "oomph" because of the hurt.

In this culture, there's no cultural context in which the term can bring those feelings of oppression.

There are few exceptions. I've known a few whites who grew up on reservations who would disagree.

[zreosumgame]

67. AFAIK Richards had not made a movie blaming Jews for the death of jesus

So while it was a very public PATTERN with Gibson, it seems more like a big blow-up (did he try to blame booze? no idea since the only time I see this story is when the public scolds here have an orgasm calling other people bigots and asking for them to be killed) and not a pattern.

[Toucano]

68. If I want to hurt them, yes.

I don't live in a cave, for fuck sake!

I know that anti-semitic, racist, sexist, and homophobic words are hurtful. If I want to hurt someone, I'll use them. DUH!

It absolutely DOESN'T mean I believe the things those words imply or that other people who use them casually believe about them.

There's a big difference between Gibson and Richards that's getting lost.

Gibson has a HISTORY of antisemitism. He and his father, while not drunk or angry, have both engaged in promoting antisemitic IDEAS. Not simply using the WORDS some people use to promote those ideas. The Gibsons promote the ideas themselves.

The Passion of the Christ already had made Gibson's VIEWPOINT clear.

In my opinion, Richards just said hateful things to hurt someone who was hurting him. Childish, yes. Racist, not necessarily.

[robcon]

70. Wow! I haven't heard such apologetic defense of racism.

Sorry - using the n word viciously and repeatedly takes a deep feeling of hatred and insecurity.

Richards is a racist... pure and simple.

[salin]

92. and if there were any question... the lynching reference rather

gives it away.

[Toucano]

94. Bullshit.

I don't know Richards or whether he's a racist or not.

But "...using the n word viciously and repeatedly takes a deep feeling of hatred and insecurity" is completely false.

It CAN reveal deep feelings (or ideas),
It CAN reveal ignorance, or
It CAN reveal a desire to be hurtful and mean.

The notion that a person can't use those words unless they believe in them is Pollyannish.

It carries no more water than the notion that a person can't say, "I love you" unless they have deep feelings of love and security.

[redqueen]

86. I would never use those words... but I agree with what you're saying here.

Richards obviously has rage issues, and he knew those words and sentiments (fork) would hurt, and used them.

I don't know that it automatically marks him as a racist... but I don't know that that's not the case, either.

[QuestionAll...]

99. the Passion...

how exactly did Gibson twist the bible or whatever you are saying, in this movie?

I saw it (yeh yeh, throw pies in my face) and anti-semitism just was not there for me at all. To see it that way you'd have to be a dyed in the wool one entering the theatre...

btw, I don't believe in the bible, or gibson.

one of the big criticisms of The Passion was that it was a kind of snuff movie, too much violence! oh!
omg, as if that isn't a steady diet in most media and in the friggen streeets for Christs Sake.

anyway, I'm going to see Apocolypco opening night. Guess that means my honored standing here will go up in flames. heh.
(interesting sidenote, maybe. My daughter was on a two month holiday in Guatemala a couplefew years ago. She spent a night sleeping on top of a jungly mayan ruin called El Tigre (not easily accessible and touristy). Only room for about 7 up there, no guard rails. Couple weeks before that, Gibson and Bill Gates were there)

[Toucano]

102. "Passion" antisemetism

Summarized from Wiki, just for ease:

When the movie was finally released, although some Jews were supportive of Gibson, the overwhelming reaction from within the Jewish community was highly negative. Reviewer Katha Pollitt of The Nation observed that "Gibson has violated just about every precept of the (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops) conference's own 1988 "Criteria" for the portrayal of Jews in dramatizations of the Passion (no bloodthirsty Jews, no rabble, no use of Scripture that reinforces negative stereotypes of Jews, etc.)". <33> The Jewish community was concerned with a number of issues:

* Many Jews, such as the High Priest, are portrayed as physically ugly. "The priests have big noses and gnarly faces, lumpish bodies, yellow teeth; Herod Antipas and his court are a bizarre collection of oily-haired, epicene perverts. The "good Jews" look like Italian movie stars (Magdalene is actually played by the Italian movie star Monica Bellucci); Mary, who would have been around 50 and appeared 70, could pass for a ripe 35." <34>
* The High Priest is shown as if he a were a member in good standing of the Jewish community, and as having control over the Roman occupation; historians note that the Jews were not allowed to appoint their own High Priest according to Biblical law, and that the High Priest at the time was in the service of the Roman government.
* Pontius Pilate is portrayed as a thoughtful, temperate man who ultimately agrees to crucify Jesus because he does not want to risk a Jewish rebellion on the one hand and a Christian rebellion on the other; but historians, including his contemporary Josephus, describe his savage treatment of Jews in general, crucifying many Jews during his reign.


I don't care for Mel as a film maker or actor, but that's beside the point. We'll see if "Apocolypto" is any good when it comes out. I wouldn't punish someone for having views that I disagree with, but I would punish them for making bad movies. :)

[tlsmith1963]

73. Not Really

I only said the "n" word when I was maybe 5 years old & didn't know what it meant. My mother set me straight really quick. I have never said it since. When I get really angry, I tend to use four-letter words a lot, but that's as far as it goes. As for Gibson & Richards, I am annoyed with both of them. I am not letting Richards off.

[Skittles]

78. no I do not

and I have an extremely wicked temper and know from experience.....I simply do not have the inner hatred within me and I am very grateful for that

[B Calm]

79. What kind of cruel words were the hecklers using to cause this?

[EnviroBat]

81. I don't get mad, I get "stabby"...

[Hamlette]

82. Yes. I do. I call them Republicans. It's the worst slur I know. n/t

[RB TexLa]

89. I guess I would have to care enough about what someone else said

to find out. Can't remember when the last time I cared was.

[QuestionAll...]

93. good post. let's examine some things...

I use the 'f' word far too often, especially here.
without thinking, wtf does that f word mean and where'd it come from? (Fornication Under Consent (of the) King, actually. so I hear.
F You.
mutherFucker
get fucked, etc.

subliminally, the message is all awry and wierd. Getting consensual 'sex' should be hey okay, who'd be insulted by that?... but what does 'get fucked or fuck you really mean?'

Assault, rape, ownership, dominance of the phallic sword, is what it really means.


==

about that Kramer incident - he's an asshole bigot. And I guess I am in my own way because the Seinfeld series always gave me the creeps - cute lil vaccuous people. Couldn't stand it.

==

For those who think when one is drunk and spews what is really in their hearts (the Mel Gibson thing) ... how does that relate to a noted person here on DU who called all who disbelieved or challenged him on the Rove indictment thing a while back... cretins, and other nasty things, in a drunken post?

[grizmaster]

95. beware those who claim clean slates

I posted this on another thread already, but here it is again.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2781884&mesg_id=2782013

an honest person knows this is a continuing personal battle

A friend of mine who works in IT says computer security is a goal not a feature.

And likewise for racism and other prejudices. You can say you "try" not to be racist, but beware whether your own BS detector is working when you start believing yourself when you say you "aren't" racist.

So just as it's a continuing battle to weed out institutional and legal prejudice, so to for our own hopefully well-intentioned internal battle.

[QMPMom]

97. No I don't and I will say something to anyone that uses racial

epithets. Someone close to me recently used the term ragheads and they almost lost their own head I was so angry with them.

[WernhamHogg]

98. As an adult, no.

As a kid, I one time used "the n-word" as an insult directed at my brother, but I had no idea what it meant. My mom overheard me use it and I got into a LOT of trouble. That was the one and ONLY time I spoke that word in my life. Also, as a dumb kid, I remember a couple of times using the term "faggot" as an insult directed at a some other kids who I was arguing with. Again, I didn't really know what the term meant, but when I finally found out the meaning, I never used it again. Now, when I get pissed at someone, my favorite term is "dumbass" or MF.

On the other hand, my family uses the term "Polack" almost as a term of endearment. We are Polish, we grew up in a very heavily Polish neighborhood, with a lot of Polish friends and where "Polack jokes" were told by just about everyone. I never even knew that term could be offensive until I got older and I still don't personally find it offensive.

[AbbyR]

100. That's interesting

I've been thinking about what "slips out" a lot lately, as I am working toward returning to teaching next fall. I've been charging myself a quarter for every bad word that slips out, as profanity has become a habit. The things that I've charged for are fuck, hell, damn and shit, all of which will pop out when I do something stupid. I will be teaching in a mostly black school district, and it never even occurred to me to charge myself for saying the N word (and by the way, I hate "the N word" - I think if you're using it to explain something rather than as an insult, you should use the word. But I got zapped once here for doing that and giving my explanation, so I'll stick with the PC term).

Oh - why didn't I think to charge myself for the N word? I never say it. Ever. It's not something that would slip out because I never use it.


I guess that's good. Now if I could just get rid of the rest of the bad words before I horrify some second grader...

[gollygee]

101. Never. It wouldn't ever happen.

those words aren't part of my vocabulary and no matter how drunk or angry I was, it just wouldn't happen.