Yes, let's have a draft

[question everything]

not necessarily a military draft.

Let's have all young men and women who have just graduated from high school being drafted to assist in many areas of the country where programs were cut for "lack of funds."

Let them teach in the inner cities; let them assist in hospitals and in shelters and in soup kitchens;

Let them assist the border patrol and the park rangers;

Let them work in welfare offices where they can offer a sympathetic ear instead of the bored bureaucratic approach;

Let them staff child care centers for parents who have to work two jobs, or who have to commute long hours for their jobs;

Yes, I know that your parents have mapped your college and career since you were three years old. But this career can be delayed by a year. Yes, you and your parents are eager for you to embark on a consulting job paying six figures, but you can start at 27 instead of 25.

You will not be paid for these duties except for room and board and pocket money. You will be judged by what you are, instead of who you are.

You will have an opportunity to experience first hand areas of the country that normally you would stay away, or just read about and try to be sympathetic (at best).

And, who knows, you may even change your mind about the career plans that your parents drilled into you. If you decide to continue to participate in some of the programs, or run for office, you will have a better understanding of what the different programs need, perhaps even be able to offer more efficient ways to run them.

I don't see anything wrong with young men and women contribute one year of their life to get to know their country and to help the less fortunates, to "do for their country."

And... if anyone will end up getting preferential treatment thanks to daddy pulling strings, that person who facilitated this should be fired on the spot.

Yes, I know that this is idealism but, hey, we should start someplace and a Democratic Congress is the best body to initiate such programs.


On edit: imagine a world where you actually speak and meet people in person, instead of just text messaging, or clicking and nodding while visiting chat rooms and message boards yes, including DU.

[Virginia Dare]

1. I think it's a great idea...

I think everyone should be required to give themselves to society for at least a year. I think you should have the option of doing that instead of attending senior year in high school as well.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

86. Absolutely not.

If you drop out of school early, your chances of a decent career are blighted severely. It would be mostly the poor who did so, so it would reduce America's already-low social mobility still further.

[Virginia Dare]

93. But, it's not dropping out...

it can be a part of a practical learning experience, for instance cleaning up waterways and learning about environmental issues, and a way of possibly keeping a lot of these kids FROM dropping out. There is a program here in D.C. where they do something similar with low income kids, and it's been pretty successful.

[BOSSHOG]

2. I can't see how "conservatives" would oppose this

Have our kids do the work that Americans won't do and in turn reduce the need for immigrants crossing the border. The jobs they come for would be done by patriotic americans serving their country reducing the desire to jump the border.

Now what red blooded Young Republican would object to picking lettuce in the Salinas Valley or cleaning motel rooms from coast to coast for such a great cause? His advance abramoff business degree can be put off for a couple of years.

[question everything]

13. I was not thinking about jobs of the private industry..

after all, if hotels and farmers cannot find workers they can get out of the business.

What I am thinking are duties that we, as a society, feel obligated to offer, like shelters, and schools, and national parks and transportation.

[endarkenment]

3. Sure, as long as it is voluntary it is fine with me. nt.

[question everything]

14. Should be mandatory

If it is voluntary, it will not work. We all do things that we feel like doing more so if your parents are wealthy.

This is why it should be a draft. Young people should be in a place where they cannot do just what they feel like doing. It used to be that the military would turn many immature or problematic kids into real men - mostly. So here you have another area where young men and women will have to prove themselves, find their inner strength and find out what they are made of, without daddy's accounts, without computers and iPods.

[Zavulon]

21. No, it shouldn't.

If you make it mandatory because you think it'll be good for people (I agree it would probably do a lot of kids some good, but not all), what's next? Mandated exercise periods? Force everyone to run laps as directed by their government watchers?

Next, we could have mandated diets, we could outlaw obesity - and that's only the beginning.

Sorry, your motivations are honorable but your chosen method is a little bit too hands-on for me.

[enough already]

95. "Honorable"?

What is "honorable" about turning the young into slaves for a year?

[Zavulon]

104. No, I meant

serving the community, not turning kids into slaves. I can see offering incentives to help the community, sort of like what Clinton had in mind, but not forcing people into it.

[Warren DeMontague]

31. Jesus, dude--- axe grind much?

"without daddy's accounts, without computers and iPods."

Eh. Sounds like something's making you a little bitter, and it's not a lack of national service.

[Hippo_Tron]

54. Thank-you

It sickens me that DUers are suggesting that my generation needs to be forced into service against our will because we've been ruined by computers and IPods.

[Lasher]

91. I don't think young people should be singled out

I am utterly opposed to any kind of draft and this public service idea will never work, thank God. But if there were a draft for military service, everybody between age 18 and 60 or so who has not yet served in the military should be included on an equal basis. Many military tasks, even in combat, can be filled with individuals who can not run the 100 yard dash.

And FWIW, I've been old enough to shave for a very long time. Not all of us old geezers are in favor of victimizing your generation in this or any other manner. I was drafted in 1969 and know firsthand what it's like.

Peace. It's still a good idea. :hippie:

Edit for punctuation

[smb]

36. Out Of My Country, Slave-Master

[TK421]

39. While I understand what you are saying, I do have a major problem

with people telling me what to do. Sorry, I'm against drafts of any kind. When someone tells me I have to do something ( I have no choice ) they had damn well better prepare for a fight.

[question everything]

61. I got news for you. "Someone" is always telling you what to do

"Someone" is sending you to school for 12 years, where someone is telling you when to arrive and when to leave, when you can have time off and even mandates you taking tests.

"Someone" is telling you that you need some source of income - earned or inherited - to pay for rent and for utilities and for groceries.

"Someone" is taking a lot of your paycheck before you even see it.

"Someone" is zoning where you can live and what kind of a dwelling you can have.

"Someone" is deciding for you what channels you can watch on TV - if you do watch

"Someone" is telling you that you need a license to drive and to pay for the privilege of owning a car, and a house.

If you hold a job, "someone" is telling you a lot of things of what to do.

My favorite: "someone" is telling you what drugs you can ingest. And I am not talking about "recreational drugs" but real life savers products that the FDA decided do not past the test, that they may save only 1% even if you are in that 1%.

So, come on. Unless you live in a cabin in Montana, you are constantly subjected to rules and regulations and, at the same time, you benefit from government programs.

The difference between them and us is that we do recognize that we are part of a community and that we are responsible for each other and we not have to wait until, all of a sudden, we need help.

[TK421]

66. You are talking about the government and all it controls...but do you

agree with this? You seem to be content with it...and if so, are you content with it because you feel it is something you can't change?

edited to add: And no...I don't feel you have any news for me. But if I'm looking for the inside scoop in the near future, I'll look you up.........

[question everything]

74. No, I just stated the obvious

and am glad that these are not news for you.

And if you'd bother to read my reply, you'd know that I do not like the way the FDA controls our access to medicine, even if it is nothing than snake oil. I am pro-choice across the map.

Until the last 30 years, until Vietnam, young men (mostly) knew that they had to register to the Selective Services, that they would be drafted. All over the world it was something that was part of "growing up." And I don't know that there were major oppositions to this.

Since then we have moved from the idealism of JFK of "doing for our country" and we have the "me first." "What my country can do for me." And it is sad to find this among liberals.

[TK421]

78. You seem to be missing the point about lost lives concerning those who

have been drafted....but then again, I guess that could be attributed to the fact that you have not known anyone ( or had a relative ) that was in that situation?
Yeah...I'm REAL FUCKING GLAD I'm not in your newsroom.

[Hippo_Tron]

53. So it's Ipods and computers

That's the downfall of my generation, eh

[question everything]

58. No, why do you think so?

How do you think I post here? Using quills and papyrus?

But if you go out to, say, a restaurant, you will see people supposedly sitting together for a meal, but each of them is at a different world chatting on their cell phones.

Go to some outdoor gathering and you will see people chatting away on their cell phones. And, yes, I sometimes wonder whether for some their cell phone is a crutch to prevent any eye contact with someone else.

Yes, I do have a cell phone. For when I am away from a land phone, or when out of town and do not want to pay whatever hotels charge.

[Hippo_Tron]

59. Okay so 18-20 year olds talk on their cell phones all the time

And doesn't know any real communication. Clearly we all need to be drafted into national service against our will to fix these problems.

However, as I pointed out in this thread, old people don't tolerate homosexuals because they don't support equal rights for them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2772611&mesg_id=2772611

Therefore if I'm going to be drafted into mandatory national service for a year so that my generation's problems can be fixed I think that every person over 65 needs to go to a year of mandatory tolerance school where they learn to tolerate homosexuality.

[question everything]

62. People in their sixties talk on cell phones all the time, too

but they are not in between leaving home for new opportunities that they can take a side trip, though I am sure many of them would, if the opportunity is there and if they do not end up leaving their families to fend for themselves all of a sudden.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

88. That's their choice!

You may think they would be better off if they did national service instead of talking on cell phones (I think your chain of reasoning between those two is kind of weak, incidentally).

You are welcome to tell them this.

You have absolutely no right whatsoever to enforce it on them.

Advocating mandatory national service for the good of the nation, while misguided, is at least understandable. But advocating mandatory national service for one's own good is just contemptible.

I may believe that you would be gain more from spending two years working in a soup kitchen rather than learning skills and working at a career of your choice, but I have no right whatseover to make that decision for you.

[TahitiNut]

60. Yep. I support such a mandatory national service program 100%

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/347

[TK421]

68. Mandatory........OK ! Fuck it!

If I don't agree, what is my sentence? Go ahead...I dare you

[TahitiNut]

69. 4-6

:shrug: Same as I faced. Same as my father faced.

[TK421]

70. Give it to me....stop the small talk n/t

edited to add: It is bullshit pure and simple

[TahitiNut]

72. Well, maybe in your case ...

... sitting in the corner with a time-out is something you and your peers are more accustomed to?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[TK421]

77. Hmmm...tell me who my peers are! Go ahead, enlighten me

Now you have been reduced to making insults like that? Come on...you disappoint me. I thought you could come up with something better

[TK421]

80. At least be original! I know, I know...that must be difficult!

But, hey...just try, OK? :D

[TK421]

81. Here are some more of those ridiculous smilies for you!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[TK421]

82. Oh, by the way...anyone who laughs that hard at their own stupid jokes

turns out to be a loser...roughly, oh...9 times out of 10?

But just to make you feel better...
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray:

[TahitiNut]

110. You done already? Or are you just holding your breath until you turn blue?

Only four posts - that's not even a decent tantrum. C'mon ... call me an "old poo-poo pants" ... exercise and stretch that pre-adolescent half-wit of yours.

:rofl:

[TK421]

111. Made you look !

Sucker!

[JuniperLea]

4. Well done!

That would help to solve many problems, not the least of which is young people learning about life.

[Mythsaje]

25. Right...

Maybe they should learn right out of the gate that they're actually the property of the State.

[JuniperLea]

30. Maybe they should learn right out of the gate that society doesn't owe them shit

And there are a whole lot of people that are worse off than they are.

[Warren DeMontague]

32. Maybe they should learn right out of the gate that control-minded "left" authoritarians

who want to run their lives can be just as obnoxious as the right wing kind.

And this idea is a great place to start!

[JuniperLea]

34. Better than a draft

eom

[Warren DeMontague]

35. Yeah, I don't support that, either. nt

[JuniperLea]

37. Sometimes you have to negotiate for the lesser of two evils

That's all I'm saying.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. I don't think so.

The idea of the OP isn't that we should have national service because it's "better" than a draft, the idea is that these gul-durn spoiled kids with their ipods and "daddy's accounts" need to do some hard time as wards of the state to rectify their selfish ways.

Feh.

If a draft is a shitty idea (and I think it is) the proper response, IMHO, is to say "a draft is a shitty idea". Actually, I don't think national service OR a draft has a chance in hell of passing any time soon. That's all I'm saying.

[JuniperLea]

98. Many who were far better than you or I thought it was a good idea in times of need

Think CCC.

[Warren DeMontague]

108. Excellent point. The CCC was voluntary.

Different animal entirely.

[Hippo_Tron]

56. Okay fine, then maybe old people can learn to tolerate homosexuality

[JuniperLea]

94. They can

And should.

After a heart attack, my bigoted grandfather changed his tune completely. He went from being Archie Bunker to The Meathead in a heartbeat... pardon the pun.

[Hippo_Tron]

55. Where do you get this arrogant assumption that young people don't know about life?

[JuniperLea]

99. Where do you get the arrogant assumption I'm clueless on the issue?

:eyes:

I have three kids in college. Each kid has a ton of friends. At any given moment, there are at the very least 6 young people in my house. I talk to them; the majority are clueless.

Get a grip and stop calling the kettle black.

[genie_weenie]

5. Wow, talk about idealism.

You will be judged by what you are, instead of who you are. If only it worked that way... :thumbsup:

[sal paradise]

6. I come from a rough part of town...

and the one problem that struck me with your otherwise good idea, is that it would cause more problems trying to enforce such a draft than most people would want to take on. I cannot see the kids I grew up around taking a year to do "good" for the country. They would almost definitely skip out on it, do whatever they could to avoid it and take up less than legitimate means of making money which they do now. In a perfect situation, it seems like it would work. But I know too many people who are disenfranchised, apathetic, or flat out angry at the government and country as a whole to donate that much of their time after high school. And that kind of work is not for those who don't want to be doing it in the first place. I doubt they would contribute much. I may be being pessimistic, but I simply see it being as more of a hassle than a benefit.

[question everything]

64. I obviously just raised some ideas

I don't know enough o offer details.

But as I am reading your post, I am thinking that perhaps the kids you describe can be the "mentors" for the draftees. They will show them what it means to grow in the poor area of the city, with perhaps only one parent, where everything there is more expensive, where there is not much hope for the future.

This is a situation that, if handled right, can be beneficial for both the disenfranchised and the privileged kids.

And.. welcome to DU

:toast: :bounce:

[enough already]

96. One question....

What specifically are YOU doing to better the world? You seem to have the lives of every young American from now to eternity mapped out. What's your role, other than puppetmaster?

Honestly, between this and Rangel's draft, I find some on our side as frightening as those on the far right.

[zeemike]

7. I totally agree

And the thing is it is a win win for everyone.
The kids get experience in the real world instead of spending that two years binge drinking at some frat house. and the nation gets the benefit of there work.
Makes a lot of sense to me.

[hughee99]

8. Excellent idea...

Let's take all the children coming out of high school, many of which haven't matured yet and have no discernible real world skills, and have them teach in inner cities (a task which many SKILLED teachers struggle with). Let's put them on the boarder patrol, in welfare offices and in child care centers, where normally you'd want trained workers who know what they're doing, but hey, these kids would be almost free. Many of these programs need more funding because it can be difficult to retain TRAINED workers, adding untrained (and in many cases unskilled and immature) volunteers does not fix this problem.

Let's have the Democratic congress, which is supposed to be watching out for the freedoms of all Americans, seize the freedoms of our newest voters. That should put a stop to this whole "Democratic Congress" talk... :sarcasm:

[sal paradise]

11. Haha nicely put

[hughee99]

19. I was wondering if anyone would read beyond my subject line. n/t

[sal paradise]

50. Yes, I did

I thought the whole thing was nicely put

[Warren DeMontague]

28. Damn Straight. nt

[tomp]

90. good job pointing out the absurdity of the op. nt

[enough already]

101. Too much common sense in your post

You need to get out of the way while we commit political suicide.

[HughBeaumont]

9. I'd be fine if this were the case.

Social services are a noble cause. Helping the poor, noble cause. Rebuilding infrastructure - NOBLE CAUSE. Cleaning our environment, replanting trees, working at homeless shelters, soup kitchens, day cares, recycling, etc.

NOBLE. CAUSES. ALL of them.

[jackster]

10. I'm on board with most of this....

I've been advocating for this sort of compulsory service for some time for those capable (mentally and physically) citizens between ages 18 - 20. I believe that the military should be an option among other jobs that benefit the country and citizenry.

[Hippo_Tron]

57. Do you fit into that age group?

I don't think so. If I'm going to take a year off from college to go serve my country then I think that you should take a year off of your career and raising your kids to do the same.

[jackster]

102. already served in the military

and even then I believed that it was something everyone should do. I don't believe we should not pay these citizens accordingly however. I was a single mother and left my daughter at home with my parents until I could bring her with me. Today she's a very successful woman with a wonderful family of her own.

Two good pieces on this subject...

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/contributors/576

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-odonnell/rangel-is-right_b_34667.html

[Mythsaje]

12. "A Democratic Congress is the best body to initiate..."

Right, because I voted to replace RW authoritarians with LW authoritarians.

"Your childrens now belongs to us."

Besides, what the hell makes you think these people would be any good at any of these jobs? A sympathetic ear at the welfare office? Sure, okay.

Helping out the border patrol? "Hey, Frank? Is it okay if I beat the crap out of this wetback? I'm bored and he looked at me funny."

You can't FORCE a person to have a social conscience. If anything, they'll resent you for trying and it'll make things WORSE.

I know I'm wasting my time arguing this point.

What we REALLY need is another leader to inspire the young people like JFK did, combined with the creation of a far-reaching program that can channel that inspiration into action.

[zeemike]

17. JFK started the peace corp

Which had the same goals and increased Americans stature through out the world. and it was voluntary.
But now we need an American Peace Core that energizes the young and gives them some real world experiences.
But Citizenship does not have to be free where the citizen is given everything and gives noting back in exchange.

[Mythsaje]

23. "Given" everything?

Yeah, as if millions of poor and middle class citizens get free education to the point it gives them a real chance of success in this country.

As if the oligarchs aren't robbing us blind through usurous interests rates on everything from credit cards to car loans. And doing their level best to eliminate the citizen's ability to declare bankruptcy.

As if they haven't determined they can tap our communications any time they like.

As if volunteering to serve your community as part of the National Guard didn't get your ass shot off in Iraq.

As if millions of Americans now have no health insurance and no real option for getting any.

I have no problem with service. I have a REAL problem with mandatory service. So far the only difference between the people advocating that and the right wingers who've been running this country for the past several years is the color of their uniforms.


Sure, we're getting one heck of a lot of bang for our buck already. Maybe we should actually try to increase what our country is doing for US before we consider forcing people to give to IT. After all, it's certainly arguable that its side of the bargain hasn't exactly been up to par lately either.

[zeemike]

84. Hey I am with you on all of that

But do you see this new America that you want as some kind of libertarian paradise where no one has to do anything they don't want to do and we are all separate and equal with emphasis on separate?
If America is to be transformed into a free republic than count me out. but if you want an America that is fair and just to all and actually works for us all some sacrifice must be made. And the best way is to transform the youth and give them some idea of a vested interest in it's society.
Two years of service as part of an educational experience is not asking a lot, and does not mean that we are communist or fascist.

[Mythsaje]

106. I think it hinges on

tranforming the experience of coming of age in America. Kids who graduate high school either know exactly what they want to be, and do, or they haven't a clue.

Intefering with the ones who already know seems unfair to me. But giving those who don't a chance to reach out and make a difference...I can see that as important. Had I been given that option when I was 18 or 19, I would've jumped at it.

I don't think you can surgically implant a social conscience. But I do believe you can encourage one. That should be our goal, rather than trying to force it upon people who might well not gain anything from the experience without one.

[HughBeaumont]

22. This is true as well.

Nobody should be forced to do anything against their will. Yet if it means contributing to something that does the poor and middle class some good (unlike, say, an ILLEGAL INVASION or border patrol), then I'm more for that.

I'm glad though, that this plan doesn't include being bullet fodder for KBR and Bechtol, which some on a supposedly progressive site are weirdly advocating.

We need better leaders and thinkers in our high offices. "What you can do for your country" didn't mean serve the corporate military-industrial complex's needs.

[question everything]

65. "Your childrens now belongs to us."

They do, of course. For K-12 they have to attend school, be told when to arrive and when to leave, when they have time off and, of course, they have to take tests.

And if are a parent would like to take a school kid on a family vacation during school year, forget about that. They will be penalized.

Unless you are home schooling.

I thought that to be a liberal means to recognize that we live in a community where we enjoy the privileges and we recognize our obligations.

This is why they support "small government." They do not want government programs to help the ones who are poor or sick, or just had dumb luck. They do not want some form of "socialized - gasp - medicine" until, of course, they lost their coverage. They do not support stem cells research until someone they love could benefit from that.

I thought that we, liberals, always think beyond our immediate needs, that we do think of the common goods even if we will end up paying for this.

It is usually the Democrats who enact regulations at state and federal levels when we realize that we cannot rely on the generosity of strangers and the only way to get something is to force businesses and individuals to do good. This is why Clinton and Kerry support the elimination of tax benefits for the wealthy, even though they know that it will cost them. This is why many of us, with no children in schools, do support school bonds.

The Republicans think that a society, a country, a community, is for them to grab whatever they can. We realize that being a part of a community involves both obligations and privilege. And giving six months to a year to the community, before you start on your career and supporting a family is a noble idea.

[Mythsaje]

75. Just because I'm liberal

doesn't mean I have to agree with any kind of goofy-ass plan some would be "boss" comes up with. I'm a liberal because I believe people should have the right to decide what to do with their own lives...fall in love with whoever, choose their own intoxicants, and follow the path that their own conscience dictates.

I see this current conflict here as being between authoritarians and anti-authoritarians--certain folks seem to believe they have as much right to dictate the people as do the right-wingers and I'm just not down with that.

That's not what I signed up for.

[no_hypocrisy]

15. You're describing a 1930's Civilian Conservation Corps. Not a bad idea.

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1586.html

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

46. No. CCC was a voluntary employment program, not comparable. /nt

[no_hypocrisy]

47. Save for the compulsory format, isn't it similar as far as

constructive rather than destructive contribution to civilization?

[question everything]

71. The idea is similar

and thank you for the link.

One difference that I see is that the CCC took unemployed young men and put them in the program and, I suppose, paid them some type of wages. While I am talking about the well off and the comfortable who would prefer to concentrate on their careers and joy of life and not pause for even a day to give to the community, at no charge, except for room and board and pocket money.

I think that even in JFK days, the ideas of giving to society was not foreign while today we really do ask "what our country can do for us."

[Agony]

109. Civilian Public Service in WWII is an example of involuntary alternative to draft. nt

[The Backlash Cometh]

16. I'm still not quite sure how the draft, or mandatory community service

is not like socialism or communism.

Isn't that funny? A capitalist society that suffers from amnesia whenever it's convenient.

[Virginia Dare]

20. I don't think the Founding Fathers ever imagined...

the U.S. invading and occupying another country for any reason either. We suffer from amnesia on so many levels.

[Book Lover]

18. A) The cost to implement would be huge -

who would you suggest bear it, the feds ro the individual states?

B) Forcing anyone to labor for merely enough pay to satisfy their landlord, grocer, and pocket is not my idea of a free society.

C) What would you do with those people who have actual responsibilities that they have to fulfill, say a woman of 18 who is a mother?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

41. Your "idea of a free society"

So, none of the following countries are "free" or "free societies" according to you:

Austria
Bermuda
Brazil
Bulgaria
Chile
Croatia
Cyprus
Denmark
Finland
Germany
Greece
Israel
S. Korea
Mexico
Norway
Poland
Russia
Sweden
Switzerland
Turkey
Ukraine
Venezuela

Good to know that the rest of the world isn't free (per you) because their citizens give some of their time to their country.

[Book Lover]

44. Not in this respect, no (nm)

[rollin74]

24. What should happen to those who refuse to participate?

I can easily imagine millions of young people who would simply refuse to go along with the program and refuse to carry out their duties.

Should there be criminal penalties??
Would the "draft dodgers" go to prison?

[Jed Dilligan]

73. There would be no practical difference

between prison and the "Corps". There would be rapes in the dorms and people shot trying to escape. This idea is horrible. Just because it works in societies that were already unified when they started, doesn't mean it will magically unify us.

[Warren DeMontague]

26. I find it amusing that each of your points starts with "let them..."

I assume you're not in the age group you're targeting. Neither am I.

But I'd suggest if you're so eager to see civic responsibility in action, you go volunteer to staff a soup kitchen or patrol the border yourself.

This "we know what's good for you better than you" attitude doesn't wear any better on the "left" than it does on the right IMHO.

[mindfulNJ]

33. A-friggin-men

I don't like mandatory anything.

[OhioChick]

63. Good Point. n/t

[enough already]

97. Please, you need to stop making so much damn sense

There is no room for rational thinking on this, we have to force our dumb, lazy kids to save the world.

[ComerPerro]

27. hey, slavery! Alright, good times!

[smb]

38. Yep

hey, slavery! Alright, good times!

OK, between question everything and Trent Lott, that's two votes for the proposition "we'd be better off if Strom Thurmond had won".... :eyes:

[Jed Dilligan]

29. How about this...

You take the half-trillion dollar budget attached to your proposal, and hire people to do these essential tasks who both have skills and want to work?

[Minnesota_Lib]

42. Seeing Paris Hilton serving in a soup kitchen would put everyone off their appetite.

[bikebloke]

43. Germany has something like that.

Young men can choose either doing time in the military or civil service. While travelling, I met a German who was heading home to do his civil service.

The Swiss don't have a choice. A friend served some military time, then skipped out on the rest. Eventually, they caught him hiding out and put him in prison.

[piedmont]

79. So do France and Austria

They let the kids pick between military and civilian service, I believe.

[rinsd]

45. A prime example why legislation shouldn't be written by those who are embittered

Everything about your proposal drips with disdain about some shadowy spoiled "them" without any thought to the consequences imposed on many others.

[Hippo_Tron]

48. I'm all for it if EVERYONE has to do it, not just young people

If I can take a year off of college, certainly you can take a year off of your career and raising your kids.

[BlackVelvet04]

49. NO, let's don't have a draft.....

I bet you aren't of an age to be forced into servitude, right? Nor am I, but if I were I wouldn't do it. Whatever happened to land of the free? Free to be forced into service?

Have you lost your mind?

[Mythsaje]

51. Yes, yes, I'm pretty sure some people have...

Less than two weeks into the Congressional majority and the power has gone STRAIGHT to their heads.

Kinda scary, really.

[Hippo_Tron]

52. This is one of the most ignorant fucking posts I've ever seen

Grow up

[Heewack]

67. How do you suppose we get around the 13th Amendment?

I disagree with a government run social engineering program.

[question everything]

76. Are you, then, against universal health insurance?

How about taxes on cigarettes and alcohol? Or about property and income taxes? Prohibition of recreational drugs and prostitution, and internet gambling?

There are programs all across the land and all are some form or another of social engineering. We all have our favorites, likes and dislikes.

For example, I think that it is up to the owners of restaurants and bars to decide whether they allow smoking, and then it is up to us whether we want to go there. And many DUers did not like that idea, either.

For many years young men knew that they had to register to the Selective Services and they could be drafted - even in time of peace. It is just a matter of getting used to it. It is also a question of - as JFK asked - whether we go through life expecting that our country does things for us, or whether we realize that membership in any society involves both privileges and obligations.

Sadly, too many on DU, apparently, are as self centered, as "me first" as what one expects to find at freeperville.

[Mythsaje]

83. You want to guess where I stand on all these questions?

I think sin taxes should have a reasonable limit. Why? Because I don't think the State should profit from addiction. To me it smacks of hypocrisy.

I don't believe in prohibition of drugs, prostitution, or internet gambling, though I do not oppose reasonable controls and regulation. Pretty much the same way I feel about guns.

I'm opposed to the State determining whether a bar owner can allow smoking in his or her establishment.

[smb]

105. JFK's Question -- Newspeak-to-English Translation

"Ask not what the people in power can do for you; ask what you can do for the people in power."

[Donald Ian Rankin]

85. There are two sorts of argument for mandatory service, both very wrong indeed.

The first is "people should be made to do mandatory service for the country, for the good of the country". This is stupid, because the same goods can be achieved at far little sacrifice all round, by allowing people to do whatsoever work they choose, taxing their earnings, and using that to pay professionals to do the work that would otherwise be done by conscripts. This way, everyone is doing work they've chosen for themselves, which they will generally be better and more productive at, and find less onerous. The only exceptions to this is when there are jobs *needing* doing that there simply aren't enough professional volunteers to do, no matter what you pay. The only situations this arrises in are wars of survival (other wars may not have enough professionals available, but don't need doing) and possibly massive natural disasters. Both of those could justify mandatory service for the good of others, but nothing else can.

The second is "people should be made to do mandatory service for the country, for their own good". This is not merely stupid, it's patronising, illiberal, immoral and a fundamental assault on liberty. *You* may believe it would be in someone else's best interest to spend two years working in a soup kitchen rather than learning useful skills or starting a career of their choice (I think it's very silly to believe that, but a lot of people do), but you have absolutely no right whatsoever to make that decision for them. Nothing can justify mandatory service for "one's own good", although making it an *alternative* to a custodial sentence for criminals is justifiable.

It is one of the most basic principles of liberalism that no-one should be coerced to do anything unless there's a very good reason for it. Universal forced labour is about as flagrant a violation of that as you can hope to find.

[Mythsaje]

107. I was actually thinking on this last night...

If they were suggesting using it as an alternative to jail or prison for young non-violent offenders, I could definitely get on board. I already don't believe that our young people need to be placed in custody with hardened, violent offenders.

[EdwardM]

87. What does a teenage mother need to do?

She needs to mop the floors at the local hospital ofcourse. Screw her kids, she needs to perform service for her community or go to prison, because otherwise, some rich kids might get off playing on their computer all day! Screw her kids! We got a social revolution to do here! :argh:

[Lasher]

89. Odd to find an apparent libertarian in favor of conscription (EOM)

[Warren Stupidity]

92. Nanny State Left Authoritarian Bullshit.

The evil doppleganger of Theofascist Right Authoritarianism. Marvelous. Imagine a world where people were actually free.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

100. here is what a friend of mine has to say about the draft....

and i am a staunch anti war proponet but he almost has me convinced


his message:

I have seen many of my good friends post
that they are against the draft.
I am willing to speak for the draft.

My opinion, and that's all it is,
so take it at that,
is based on my experience
as a high school kid
fighting the war in Vietnam,
and my studies of that war
and the resistance to that war.

First,
I like total conscription in the armed services
by all citizens.

This will make our services
totally representative of our electorate.

Now, the military does not repsresent the total electorate,
only those who have volunteered to fight in this war.

If it did,
we would have voices in the military
that come from Peace People,
not just people who have bargained war
for an education. (broad generalization, pardon me)

My own sons chose to leave JROTC,
and the free college ride it would provide,
because they opposed this war.

If they had to stay,
and others opposed to the war had to serve,
then they would not have
a unified pro war standing army.

Second,
i want peace people to be
at least partially responsible for watching the guns.

How many hippies enlist?

Well, I want more hippies in the military,
and soon.


my friend said that she
would want her kids to join the Peace corps.

I say put the Rednecks and Wanna-Fights
in the Peace corp,
they need to learn some love,
and let the peace kids be behind the guns,
so they can teach some love
by not firing them.

Third ,
of all my 200+ myspace friends,
I know of only four that have been arrested
in opposition to this war,
and i include one 14 year old girl
from upstate New York
who walked out of school on September 5th,
and was suspended for three days.

I am Very opposed to this war,
and i haven't been arrested yet.

If my sons are drafted,
I will be arrested,
and several times.

If each of my myspace friends had a draft card,
or had a child with a draft card,
I assure you that more than 4 of my myspace
friends would have been arrested opposing
the Iraq War by now.

I disagree with Congressman Randall on this point.

The rich will still get out of service,
like Bush and Cheney,
and the smart, like Clinton,
will find a way out,
but you and I
will have our level of comfort changed,
and like they say,
all politics is local,
and when the Draft comes,
the War in Iraq will become local,
like local in your living room
as you say goodbye to your loved ones
leaving for a Tour in Iraq,
and when that happens,
you will move from being Very against this war,
to being Very Arrested and against this war.

And when we are willing to get arrested,
we will stop this war.

I want to see the Draft
to make those opposed to the war
have to actually go into the streets
and face the man.

That's what I did in 1968, and 69, and 70, and 71,
and 72, and that's is why
the Vietnam Memorial Wall
is not larger than it is.

Because people like me stopped it.

Why haven't you stopped the War in Iraq?

Because it isn't local , in your house, yet.

My hats off to my 6 myspace friends
who have loved ones in Iraq
at this moment.

I judge no parent or sister, or loved one
who is praying for this war to stop,
only those of us
who are not answering those prayers.

If it takes a Draft
to make you face the man in the streets,
then bring on two drafts
and end this war twice as fast.

remember who stopped the War in Vietnam,

it was people,
with draft cards,
marching in the streets by the million.


People in every town,
and on everyday,
people for whom this far away war
has become local.



We have enough people who are against the war,
we just dont have enough
who have gotten local with it.

The draft will not raise the war,
it will raise the fight against it.

My proof is the postings already today
about resisting the draft.

the fear of death is the only carrot
that will get the people in the streets.

The Draft is that carrot.

give the people a carrot
and lets get on with the business
of taking the streets against this war.

With a steady stream of volunteers,
the war will go on and on,
but with a draft,
the war in Iraq's days are numbered.

I could be wrong.
i could be right.

Lets look at Vietnam and judge.

I love you.
forgive me if I am wrong,
i am only attempting to find my way to peace.

If Hippies ran the Department of Defence,
I would finally sleep well at night.

Imagine giving out medals and ribbons
for not having a War.

Lets work for that day.

In the end,
I believe that only the drafting of people
opposed to the War,
and that alone,
will the war end.

Sad to say,
all politics is local.

I only know what I have learned.

anything more you will have to teach me.

Let me learn.

[ArbustoBuster]

103. No.

Forcing people to contribute is a sure way to turn them off of anything even faintly resembling charity or social awareness for the rest of their lives. It would be "I gave at the office" writ large.

It is absolutely certain that the rich and powerful would find ways to send their youngsters to the safe, cushy, no-work jobs while the rest of us were forced to clean up meth labs and crack houses. Forget that.

I have a strong ethical problem with the government forcing people to do things just because "it would be good for them." The chance to experience other parts of the country or to see how other people live may be a fine goal, but it's not what everyone wants or needs and therefore is not something that people should be forced to do through mandatory service. What I consider good for people is not necessarily what they think is good for them.

Edited to add: After what we've seen the Bush Administration do with the lives of our volunteer army, why would anyone trust them with the lives of drafted young people in mandatory public service? Such a program would continue to exist when the next corrupt Republican is elected, and that Republican administration could do anything they like with the public service corps. Up to and including sending them to a foreign country to die. (Think of it this way: They could send the service corps to Iraq to drive trucks as their "public service.") We have proof from the actions of the Bush Administration that they don't give a damn about the rule of law, so making it illegal to use the service corps for such a purpose wouldn't keep a Republican president and/or Congress from doing it.

[tulip]

112. Who's for drafting Iraqis?

Their country. Let them fight for it.

No to national service and no to the draft for Iraq. Yes to including women if WWWIII breaks out.

Government should never take the freedom of choice away from their citizens. Aside from that with 16 million 18 year olds going into some kind of service program would break our bank. Where will all these people sleep? eat? recieve medical care? I estimate about 50,000.00 to feed, cloth, provide housing, medical care and healthcare insurance each person. Now multiply that by 16 million. That figure does not include tuition benefits either.