92 yr old woman KILLED in gunbattle w/ police who broke in her door.

[piedmont]

Fucking no-knock warrants! Atlanta news reports narcotics officers were trying to serve a warrant (they didn't say who it was for) at this lady's house, and she must have thought it was a home-invasion robbery (there have been A LOT of those in ATL). She shot three of them, and they killed her.
92 years old, living on her own, fit and healthy, and the cops take her out like this. :mad:

here's the AJC story.
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2006/11/21/1121copshot.html

[Swede]

1. What the fuck was she supposed to do?

This is fucked up.

[Kagemusha]

2. She'd have been charged with assault w/ a deadly weapon had she lived

Sad. Just sad.

[virginia mountainman]

4. Sad...

I don't blame her for opening fire...If someone suddenly kicked my door down, they would be getting shot too..

This would not be the first time, that someone got killed because the cops made a mistake, and a homeowner "defended" there home from "invaders".

[Quantess]

6. And, she's an old woman

who maybe has poor vision or poor hearing, and did not realize that they were police. A 94 year old woman could also possibly have some confusion. The 94 year old might be slower to realize the situation than, say, a 35 year old with sharp vision and good hearing, so the 94 year old would be more likely to think the cops were burglars.

[RamboLiberal]

7. And the cops were in plain clothes - I don't blame her

It's a shame. I will say for 92 she was a helluva shot though. She hit one of them center mass, lucky for him he had his vest on.

[Kagemusha]

12. No-knock in plain clothes? Wow.

But I *know* people have been charged for shooting and wounding or killing cops in similar circumstances, based on the result alone. Prosecutors make a show of being vengeful about it. Hence my words, and saying it's sad, which I continue to believe.

[benEzra]

54. What the HELL??????

And the cops were in plain clothes

What the HELL?????

What were they thinking?

Yeah, if a bunch of guys in street clothes and carrying guns kicked in my door, I'd probably shoot them too, regardless of what they were yelling.

I hope her survivors sue their asses off. And if it was a wrong-address or bad-info situation, somebody needs to go to jail for manslaughter at the least.

[benEzra]

57. Since the officers were in plain clothes,

she actually would have had a pretty reasonable claim of self-defense, though it's unclear how it would have gone in court. Self-defense is an affirmative defense, so there's no innocent-until-proven-guilty (and iffy cases tend to go against the defender), BUT since this was a 92-year-old woman inside her own home, vs. people in street clothes who allegedly kicked in her door, it might well have gone her way.

[Kagemusha]

100. The history of such cases just isn't encouraging

I think there's a death row case like this where a policeman was killed by a resident who thought he was being home invaded.

[The Stranger]

102. Never heard of that case, but no prosecutor would take these facts to a jury.

Are you kidding me? Read your focus group on these very threads, unless there are some facts here we do not know.

That old lady would beat it and walk (if she can still walk) faster than you could close the door to the jury room.

[Kagemusha]

105. On the other hand if she was a middle aged black man...

Well, I think that was the death penalty case. But it's been a long time. I wish I could summon the details on command.

At any rate, the real point is that this is wrong, wrong, wrong, and I hope the fact it involved an old woman shakes people up and wakes people up, now.

[High Plains]

121. Google "Corey Maye" and get back to me.

This is the young black man with no criminal record who shot armed intruders breaking into his home. The intruders were cops, they were at the wrong address, and the local prosecutor went for--and got--the death penalty for Maye.

[benEzra]

108. That would be the Cory Maye case...

Mr. Maye is black, which may be a big reason why he didn't receive competent counsel at first, and was charged with capital murder instead of the shooting being ruled self-defense. A lot of people look at his case as a sad result of the War On Non-Approved Herbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Maye

In his case, he had the misfortune of being a law-abiding African-American man who lived next to a drug dealer. Police raided the drug dealer next door, entered Maye's side of the duplex (which was listed on the warrant, FWIW). Mayes had retreated to his young daughter's bedroom to protect her when he heard the commotion in the drug dealer's apartment next door, and when one of the officers entered his daughter's bedroom, Mayes shot the officer. He claims that the police did not identify themselves as police until after Officer Jones was shot, and as soon as they did, he put down his gun and slid it away.

He was charged with capital murder and sentenced to death by lethal injection. The death sentence was recently overturned, and he is appealing his conviction.

[Kagemusha]

124. Thank you, that others may be educated despite my poor recollection

And I would agree that it is the sad result of the War on Drugs. (that being the vulgar) I'm a pretty law and order guy in general but, all the more reason to be disgusted when arrogance leads to needless death and suffering.

[Pushed To The Left]

162. What is wrong with this country?

This is another reason why I oppose the drug war and why my death penalty stance has changed in recent years. We're putting the lives of officers and law-abiding citizens in jeopardy in the name of this damn "War on Drugs". It seems obvious that the drug war is hurting innocent people and that the drug problem should be handled as a health issue rather than a legal one, yet doing so is still considered "too extreme". America stil has a long way to go...

[Hosnon]

107. Right...if it went to a jury she would have had a big advantage. nt

[jilln]

127. Are you sure about that?

I know when it's police they take it more seriously than with just those of us who PAY the police, but my understanding (at least in my state) is that is ALWAYS self-defense when someone breaks into your house.

[Kagemusha]

129. All I can say is, check the Corey Maye case referred to above

I'd forgotten the name when I first posted on this thread but not the circumstances. Prosecutors seem to be highly vengeful against anyone who threatens or injures a police officer, and not having any idea that the person is a police officer is apparently no defense whatsoever. I find that concept... to be polite... fascinating.

[MUSTANG_2004]

148. Like Cory Maye

Cory Maye (who had no prior criminal record) was sentenced to death for killing a police officer on a no-knock raid. He was in the bedroom with his 2 year old daughter and says he thought they were being attacked when men in plain clothes broke in the door and came running into the bedroom. At the end of it, police say they found "traces" of marijuana in his apartment.

[madmusic]

3. That was supposed to be very rare...

Because the police would announce themselves for their own safety unless in an emergency.

Guess not.

[Quantess]

44. see my post #6 which explains why it might not have made a difference.

[TheDebbieDee]

5. I feel petty saying this about law enforcement officers, but.......

at least she got 3 (of what she thought were home invaders) of them before they put her down!

[lostnotforgotten]

10. Amen Brother - I Am So Tired Of The Man And His Minions

Taking liberties at our (the people) expense!

[nicknameless]

14. You're not alone in that thought.

Fucking bastards.

:cry:

[twilight_sailing]

17. By God

she went down fighting!

[Sapphocrat]

8. Fuck.

Just... Fuck. :cry:

[Nicole]

9. She was probably scared half to death

and then they finished her off. :cry:

[Captain Hilts]

11. Oh! This was Atlanta, not Bagdhad....nt

[piedmont]

13. Police have shot at least 15 people in ATL this year, counting the lady killed tonight

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/20/america/NA_GEN_US_Atlanta_Police_Shootings.php

[meganmonkey]

15. No Knock - Gil Scott Heron

You explained it to me I must admit
but just for the record you were talking shit
y'all rap about no-knock being legislated
for the people you've always hated
in this hellhole you, we call home
no knock, the Man will say
to keep that man from beatin' his wife
no knock, the Man will say
to protect people from themselves
no knockin', head rockin', enter shockin'
shootin' cussin' killin' cryin' lyin' and bein' white
no knock
no knock on my brother Fred Hampton
bullet holes all over the place
no knock on my brother Michael Harris
and jammed a shotgun against his skull
for my protection?
who's gonna protect me from you?
the likes of you?
the nerve of you?
to talk that shit, face to face
your tomato face deadpan
your dead hands ending another freedom fan
no knockin', head rockin', enter shockin'
shootin' cussin' killin' cryin' lyin' and bein' white
but if you're wise, no knocker,
you'll tell your no-knockin' lackeys
ha! no knock on my brother's head,
no knock on my sister's head
no knock on my brother's head,
no knock on my sister's head
and double-lock your door
because soon someone may be no-knockin'
ha ha
for you.

[piedmont]

18. wow. That was awesome.

thank you, meganmonkey!

[buddysmellgood]

20. MeganMonkey rocks! It's a DU fact.

[meganmonkey]

75. Thanks buddy

:hi:

[meganmonkey]

74. As soon as I saw the words "No Knock"

I thought of that song.

He's a great artist - most famous for "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised".

Puts the popular rap artists of today to shame.

[lateo]

21. GSH is the best.

Why oh why can't we have some artists like this today?

[bedpanartist]

45. there are

they just are not promoted in the mainstream whatsoever, and people tend to think they don't exist.

[meganmonkey]

92. There are some good ones

and they are hard to find. I recommend Michael Franti & Spearhead for a taste of some good political hip-hop music.

Some excerpts of lyrics:

ROCK THE NATION


We livin' in a mean time and an aggressive time
a painful time, a time where cynicism rots to the vine
in a time where violence blocks the summer shine
lifetimes, go by in a flash
in search for love, in search for cash
everybody wanna be some fat tycoon
everybody wanna be on a tropic honeymoon
nobody wanna sing a little bit out of tune
or be the backbone of a rebel platoon
it's too soon to step out of line
you might get laughed at you might get fined
but do you feel me when I say I feel pain everyday
when I see the way my friends gotta slave
and never get ahead of bills they gotta pay
no way no way!
some make a living doing killilng Colombian penicillin
some are willing to play the villain they just chillin'
to pass the time, pass the information
or pass the wine
pass the buck or pass the baton
but you can't pass the police or the pentagon
the I.R.S. or the upper echelon
I think it's time to make a move on the contradiction

(chorus)
Bam-Bam, rock the nation
take over television and radio station


Bam-Bam the truth shall come
give the corporation some complication!

This is the dawning of our time I say it one more time
to emphasize the meaning of my rhyme
to rise above all the dirt and grime
add the right spice at the right time
fuck the constitution
are we part of the solution or are we part of the pollution
sittin' by and wonderin' why,
things ain't the way we like to find them to be, to be
for you and for me the people over there and the ones in between
check our habitation are we a peace lovin' nation
peace lovin' nation
I have a reasonable doubt I think I'll just spell it out
there's no need to scream or to shout
the N.R.A. just bought a man's soul
then he jumps up and shouts gun control
the government says that killin's a sin
unless you kill a murderer with a lethal syringe
so I ask again "are we peace lover's then"
some of them slang guns when they six years old
some of them end up in some six foot hole
this whole #### place seems to, lost control
so I raise my voice before I lose my soul
(chorus)

(snip)


----------------------------------------
IT'S A CRIME TO BE BROKE IN AMERICA

It's a crime to be broke in America!
and it's a crime to be Black in America!

But there's a mutiny on the bounty
in ever single county
we remember Attica
but don't forget to pat a few
other on the back as a matter of fact
sister Asatta Shakur and Geronimo Pratt
'cause Amnesty international
is fightin' for political
but if your analytical
you know it's much more critical than that
percentages black is really, really whack
can I kick a few facts yes?

Sx percent in college
from livin on the block
twenty five percent in prison
the school of hard knocks
fifty percent in poverty
is livin on the rocks
five hundred brothas on a death row box

The punishment is capital
for those who lack in capital
because a public defender
can't remember the last time
that a brother wasn't treated like an animal.

They say they blame it on a song
when someone kills a cop
what music did they listen to
when they bombed Iraq?
give me one example so I can take a sample
no need to play it backwards
if you wanna hear the devil
cause music's not the problem
it didn't cause the bombin'
but maybe they should listen
to the songs of people starving..

(chorus)
'Cause it's a Crime to be broke in America!
it's a crime to smoke dank in America!
it's a crime to be black in America!
it's a crime to be black in America!
it's a crime to be Puerto Rican
African
Native American
Asian Hatian
a Woman

------------------------------------------

[Nostradammit]

27. Always a good time for Gil Scott Heron

Who's gonna protect us from them?

Will the police themselves eventually get tired of living in a police state or will they keep making their circle smaller and smaller?

[niallmac]

16. Well, one thing about Idaho

No one in their right mind would even dare try that no knock cr*p here. And certainly
no one would be charged for the injuries resulting.

[Canuckistanian]

19. What's next? Flying Squads?

Stun grenades? Tear gas shot through the windows? If they can charge in plain-clothed, guns blasting legally, what are the chances this won't be abused?

[OneBlueSky]

22. even when she started shooting, couldn't these people see . . .

that she was a VERY elderly woman? . . . and do something other that shoot her to death? . . . she was probably scared out of her wits that someone was invading her home, and did what she felt she had to to protect herself . . .

[piedmont]

23. you'd think so, but in Atlanta you'd be wrong

there's been a lot of instances of police shooting people this year. Check out this story:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/20/america/NA_GEN_US_Atlanta_Police_Shootings.php


"Records obtained by AP through open records request showed that some of the department's required in-service training in the use of deadly force had been reduced, along with instruction in the use of batons.

The toll led to an independent review of police training and use-of-force procedures by a consulting firm that found some deficiencies, including a lack of emphasis on de-escalation of tense situations."
{emphasis mine)

This was about Dekalb county, but it looks like it applies to Fulton too

[Warren DeMontague]

24. What you people don't realize is, there's a DRUG SUSPECT on the loose!

If a few grannies need to be filled with lead, dammit, it's worth it to keep Willie Nelson from smoking pot!

[DemBones DemBones]

25. Looks like her niece is going to raise hell. I hope she sues

and wins a big settlement so she can move someplace where people are in less danger from the police!

The war on drugs is not keeping people from selling or using drugs but IS getting people killed in many ways. Prohibition was a failure and so is the war on drugs. We had the sense to repeal Prohibition.

[Swamp Rat]

26. poor lady

:(

[opihimoimoi]

28. America has become a POLICE STATE

That they killed a 92 year ole lady is gonna give them nightmares for 90 years...they will live with the shame of shooting Gramma

[K8-EEE]

29. Surprised they didn't taser her & order her to get up!

Jeez....

[Azathoth]

30. Folks, she shot THREE police officers

How do you expect the police to react? They had a warrant, knocked, identified themselves...there's not a whole lot more they can do. It's terribly tragic, but I can't exactly say the police were at fault.

[Mythsaje]

33. They SAY they identified themselves...

that doesn't mean they did.

This is a great example of why the Drug War is so fucked up.

[marmar]

89. "why the Drug War is so fucked up"

Amen. The puritanical silliness that guides this country never ceases to amaze me.

[benEzra]

109. The use of potentially lethal force...

to apprehend someone who was anonymously accused of possession of non-approved herbs...

Sounds silly when it's framed that way, doesn't it?

I used to be a convinced "anti-drug warrior." But I've changed my mind. The War On Non-Approved Herbs, as it now stands, is irrational.

[Crim_n al]

39. She shot three men, in plain clothes, after they broke her door down.

You really feel so certain she should have known these thugs were employed as police
and identified themselves properly to her?

If they showed their I.D.s at all it was to her dead body.

If I was her niece I'd be proud of her, and angry as fucking hell.

[malaise]

46. Indeed n/t

[wicket]

66. Amen!!!!!

:grr: :grr: :grr:

[piedmont]

158. yep. nt

[Cocoa]

42. they weren't in uniform

the article says the lady had been talking about a 72-year-old woman who was raped recently in that neighborhood, and that she was scared.

She's not a cop killer. She probably died not knowing they were cops. :cry:

[Azathoth]

58. I never called her a cop-killer

In fact, I never imputed any ill motives to her. I feel bad about what happened; I consider it a tragedy. I simply stated the fact that, whether unintentionally or intentionally, she shot three cops who were attempting to serve an arrest warrant. How do you expect the cops to respond? This need to demonize the cops (one poster in another thread has gone so far as to express regret that any of the "pigs" survived the encounter) is more than a little scary.

[benEzra]

63. The problem isn't how the officers reacted after being fired upon...

the problem is that the officers put themselves in a situation where a reasonable, law-abiding person WOULD fire upon them in good faith, thinking them to be violent criminals doing a home invasion.

The error (dare I say negligence) here was made BEFORE the officers were fired upon.

[Azathoth]

68. If a police officer knocks on the door, identifies himself, flashes his badge

and says he is there to execute an arrest warrant, then it isn't home invasion if the person on the other side refuses to open the door. It's done all the time, and no reasonable, law-abiding person would be able to claim that they opened fire in good faith. Most of the time, however, it is only done when the actual target of the arrest warrant is on the other side of the door.

[Richard Steele]

78. Key word being "if". nm

[Azathoth]

80. Of course. If it turns out that they DIDN'T knock/identify themselves

Then my take on the whole thing will change very quickly.

[Richard Steele]

98. I myself have been trying (not particularly SUCCESSFULLY, obviously)...

...trying NOT to form an opinion just yet.

We really have VERY little information so far; a
single FACT could easily spin my opinion the other
direction.

And I'm really not holding my breath waiting for
those FACTS. If history is any guide, they will be
a long time coming, if ever.

[benEzra]

79. The officers were UNDERCOVER officers, acting on a TIP...

that in hindsight appears to have been wrong. And FWIW, the Supreme Court recently ruled that two or three seconds between banging on the door, and kicking it down, constitute a reasonable delay before executing a forced entry.

The whole purpose of requiring a warrant in the first place, and requiring police officers to wear hard-to-duplicate uniforms, is to prevent this sort of mistaken identity. Remember, these were UNDERCOVER officers, officers dressed to look like they were the type to go around buying drugs from people. If three people who looked like yelled something through your door, then kicked it down and rushed in with guns in your hand, would you stop to see if that little shiny thing clipped to their jeans was a legitimate badge before defending yourself? Particularly if you were 92 years old, had never committed a serious crime, and considered yourself a law-abiding citizen, as may be the case here?

IMHO, it takes more than yelling and "flashing a badge" to make a home invasion legitimate. Undercover officers have NO business serving forcible-entry warrants.

[Azathoth]

84. In principle I agree with you

Since we're now talking about the way things should be, as opposed to the way they are, I don't have a problem with what you say. Under most circumstances there should always be a uniformed officer present, and the person on the other side of the door should have an adequate amount of time to respond peacefully. However, we have to keep in mind that the officers likely thought there was an actual (possibly armed) bad guy(s) behind the door. In such a situation, moving quickly and not drawing attention to yourself by having a bunch of uniformed officers marching around is advantageous and potentially lifesaving.

[benEzra]

90. If their intel was that shaky...

However, we have to keep in mind that the officers likely thought there was an actual (possibly armed) bad guy(s) behind the door. In such a situation, moving quickly and not drawing attention to yourself by having a bunch of uniformed officers marching around is advantageous and potentially lifesaving.

If their intel was that shaky, they shouldn't have been staging a potentially lethal raid in the first place--and if the intel WAS correct, and there had been armed men in there, they should have been wearing uniforms and level IV armor, not "undercover clothes."

Granted, we don't have all the facts, but this appears to have been bad police work, and a (possibly innocent) citizen died as a result. The police officers themselves could have been killed.

I hope the resulting lawsuit remedies the due-diligence problems this department apparently has.

[WinkyDink]

97. No, she shot 3 men breaking into her home. No uniforms. And

BECAUSE they weren't in uniforms. Do you REALLY believe they CAREFULLY ID'ED themselves AND their warrant??
Why not then WEAR UNIFORMS?

No, this was a knock-burst-the-door-open deal, bet on it.

[sendero]

47. Yeah....

... right. Someone kicks down your door in plain clothes hollering "police" - and you are stupid enough to believe them. There's a Darwin Award waiting for you.

[benEzra]

55. I EXPECT them to do something besides show up at her door in plain clothes

Folks, she shot THREE police officers...How do you expect the police to react? They had a warrant, knocked, identified themselves...there's not a whole lot more they can do. It's terribly tragic, but I can't exactly say the police were at fault.

I EXPECT them to do something besides showing up at her door in plain clothes, kicking her door down, and rushing in with guns drawn.

Perhaps, say, showing up on her doorstep IN UNIFORM, knocking, showing her the search warrant, and (gasp) asking politely if they can search the place per their warrant (if they had a valid warrant for that address in the first place).

If the claims upthread are true--that the officers weren't in unform--then she had absolutely no reason to believe that those people kicking in her door were police officers. None. Just some young tough-looking guys in street clothes, carrying guns, kicking in her door.

[Azathoth]

64. Dude, the article quotes the chief as saying they identified themselves

Which means they knocked on the door and announced that they were police and that they were serving an arrest warrant. (Assuming, of course, that the chief is telling the truth).

As far as wearing uniforms go, give me a break. Federal agents, dectives, undercover officers, the list goes on and on. (Ever watch Law and Order for God's sake?) Plain-clothes officers, dectives, agents, etc. have been executing arrest warrants since before you and I were born. This impromptu nonsense that somehow only a uniformed beat officer can execute a warrant is kind of absurd.

[benEzra]

83. There's a difference between "can" and "should"...

This impromptu nonsense that somehow only a uniformed beat officer can execute a warrant is kind of absurd.

There's a difference between "can" and "should" and the difference is the strong risk of mistaken identity. Especially when the raid is based on an uncorroborated anonymous tip, as appears to be the case here.

Having undercover officers kicking in people's doors based on shaky information, in a society where 40% of households own firearms, is a recipe for having both officers and law-abiding citizens getting shot.

Dude, the article quotes the chief as saying they identified themselves Which means they knocked on the door and announced that they were police and that they were serving an arrest warrant.

BANG BANG BANG, pounding your front door, you hear unintelligible shouting for 3 seconds, your door flies off the hinges and three men dressed like drug users and carrying guns burst in. What's your first impression?

[laundry_queen]

112. And a 92 year old woman is supposed to

be able to understand the muffled screams coming from the other side of the door?? PUH-leeze! Even my hearing isn't that good! I can't hear shit out my front door.

[me b zola]

125. Even IF they identified themselves...

...I've watched a few episodes of "Cops" and "LAPD" and have seen how they enter on a warrent. Every time I have seen it, I am always appalled and a bit un-nerved at the way they make entry. There is much yelling and confusion, and each time I see it I think to myself that if this happened to me I wouldn't know WTF was going on. Now imagine you're sleeping and awaken to a bunch of testosterone driven voices yelling incoherent statements. Would you understand what was going on?

From what I have seen it appears that the police use this tactic to confuse and frighten the people within the building that they are storming for "their protection". This is, IMO, a dangerous tactic that should only be used in extreme cases, not for ordinary warrents.

[MadHound]

141. Do you have any clue as to how these things go down?

First off, remember this, the lady probably was asleep. Remember that salient fact. Now then, this is what happens in such a scene.

*bang bang bang*"Open up, it's the police!"
*BOOM* There goes the burglary door
*BOOM* There goes the wood door

Notice, I didn't put any space in between any steps in that sequence. That's because there is none. This all happens within the space of 15-20 seconds. Sure, the lady probably was wakened by the first banging, but coming out of sleep was too confused to understand what was going on or being said. The second big boom, when her burglary door went down, is probably what alarmed her to get her gun. The second big BOOM probably convinced her that the shit was hitting the fan. And not seeing a cop uniform in the bunch, well, that just added fuel to the fire.

I'm putting this one on the cops. They've become to reliant on the two knock entry system(first knock on the door, second knock down the door). This goes along with the change in police attitude from being a public servant to a guard at an outdoor asylum. If they would treat people with respect, these sorts of incidents would happen a lot less, and fewer innocent people would be dead. But hey, since it isn't cops who are dying, the police really don't give a shit, despite all the lip service they pay and review committees they form. Perhaps these wounds might get their attention now.

Simple solution for next time, surround the house with officers so nobody can break out of the house. Go up to the front door and knock politely. Wait for the owner or resident to answer. Then politely serve them the search warrant. This used to be SOP, and fewer innocents were shot, and suspects didn't get away. It just wasn't as much of an adrenalin rush for the cops, nor did it stroke their ego as being the big badass.

No arrest, no case is worth shooting an innocent human being for, never. That used to be police credo too, but somewhere along the line it got tossed in the trash.

[thingfisher]

145. Simple solution

for next time, surround the house with officers so nobody can break out of the house. Go up to the front door and knock politely. Wait for the owner or resident to answer. Then politely serve them the search warrant. This used to be SOP, and fewer innocents were shot, and suspects didn't get away. It just wasn't as much of an adrenalin rush for the cops, nor did it stroke their ego as being the big badass.

Well spoken!

[MUSTANG_2004]

147. That is so obvious, it's painful

What is so terrible about selling drugs that the police have to do no-knock raids? Would it have been that difficult for them to send some uniformed police officers to knock on the door and politely serve the warrant?

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Azathoth]

72. And yet your avatar is a man who called for a Department of Peace

:crazy:

[we can do it]

86. Peace Begins At Home

DK never said anything about someone defending themselves that I have heard. And the naked aggression that this country has shoved upon the world has a lot of similarities with stormtroopers blasting through a little old lady's door, for crissake. Its OK to bully a smaller nation, its OK to invade someone's home, its OK to taser people....I don't blame the Iraqi's for fighting back, either.

Even the gas company says don't let someone in who is not in uniform without an ID....Did you not read that another elderly lady had been raped in her neighborhood recently?

[The Stranger]

104. A Department of Peace would look angrily at disguised cops killing civilians.

[slackmaster]

111. They went to the WRONG HOUSE and you can't say they were at fault?

:wtf:

[Puglover]

114. I fucking knew it would'nt be long

until the "police are always right" squad would show up.

[Horse with no Name]

117. Did you read?

It was a no-knock warrant.
They kicked her door in, came in with plain clothes and "said" they were police.
Now tell me it was her fault again?

[Azathoth]

154. Where did it say "no-knock" warrant?

Jesus, some of you people are really out to lunch.

[Vidar]

128. A pity her aim wasn't better.

[Azathoth]

155. Ah, another "the pigs deserve to die" post n/t

[Vidar]

164. Correct.

[butterfly77]

146. Because they are police...

I guess might makes right...They should have made sure it was the correct house before they set up their raid...

[Mythsaje]

31. This is the kind of crap

that really outlines the problem with the whole War On Drugs militancy these people espouse. Innocent people die in this shit EVERY year. Hundreds of them.

The whole idea of the No Knock warrants is that it prevents the suspect from flushing the evidence. Apparently it's better that 92 year old women die than some pot dealer goes free for lack of evidence.

Ick.

[opihimoimoi]

32. I am on your page....this is revulsive behavior for our society..and must be addressed

[Azathoth]

34. Maybe I'm missing something here

According to the police chief, the officers knocked and properly identified themselves. Now assuming he's telling the truth, why are people bringing up "no knock" warrants?

[Mythsaje]

35. I'm not assuming he's telling the truth.

I'm assuming he's playing CYA...

I think No-Knock warrants are a BAD idea because they lead to stuff like this.

[Azathoth]

36. So you've simply decided that the officers and chief are lying and that's that

Since you've apparently made up your mind and appear to be in possession of facts that are not in the article, I'll simply point out two things:

1) No-knock warrants are, to my knowledge, legal. If the officers had a no-knock warrant, why would they lie and say they knocked? Sure, they might get a little bad press by telling the truth, but the truth is gonna come out anyway. Usually, you lie to cover your ass. If you haven't done anything illegal, why make more trouble for yourself by lying?

2) The fact that a 92-year-old woman had time to get her gun and start shooting suggests to me that she had at least a little warning. Had the officers simply kicked in the door and stormed the place without warning, I somehow doubt she would have gotten the drop on them. Pure supposition on my part, but still...

On the flip side, I certainly agree that "no knock" warrants are a fundamentally bad idea.

[Mythsaje]

37. My problem with that reasoning is

asking WHY a 92 year old woman would get into a gunfight with the police, if she KNEW they were the police?

Which leads me to think they're not coming clean.

And, considering there's no one to contradict the story, why shouldn't they lie to cover their asses? If this is a common tactic, which it is, and it leads to a really BAD publicity situation like this, it's better to say "hey, we were all up front and SHE'S the one that screwed up." It's not like she can argue the point, after all.

[Azathoth]

38. Maybe she didn't believe them, maybe she didn't hear them

Maybe she was going a little senile (which, to be perfectly honest, is what I would conclude if I were a police officer and a 90-something year old woman opened fire on me). Who knows.

I agree that it is certainly easier to lie about what happened when the victim can't tell her side of the story. On the other hand, I still think it would be kind of stupid to lie if all someone has to do is talk to the judge and find out if it was a no-knock warrant.

My problem is that people seem to be introducing facts that weren't in the article, and nearly everyone seems to be forgetting about the fact that the lady managed to shoot three different officers before they took her down. This wasn't a I-thought-he-was-going-for-his-gun-but-it-turned-out-to-be-a-toothbrush scenario.

[Crim_n al]

40. She was a pretty good shot for a "senile" old lady ...

Senility is not like insanity, senility interferes with everything a person does.

A senile person could not get a gun so fast, have it in good order and shoot so well.

And a senile person does not prepare thanksgiving dinners for her extended family that
they will be looking forward to attending.

I've really had enough of the "it's always bound to be the victim's fault because a
policeman would never do such a thing" attitude of some folks.

[Azathoth]

71. Wow, talk about bringing personal baggage to the table

I've really had enough of the "it's always bound to be the victim's fault because a
policeman would never do such a thing" attitude of some folks.

Since I never made any such claim, and since it's clear that you are bringing quite a lot pre-existing emotional baggage to this discussion (your "cop apologist" comment in the other thread was quite telling), the only thing I can say is :crazy:

[Crim_n al]

115. Like to link to the other thread you mention?

I have no idea what you're referring to.

Were you one of the cop-apologists supporting the tasering of the Arab student
for not getting up off the floor that I was arguing against?

[Azathoth]

153. Wow, so you're an amnesiac as well

Go figure :crazy:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2626452&mesg_id=2626661

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Greyskye]

118. No kidding

From one of the linked articles in this thread:

Once the gunfire ended, three APD narcotics officers had been shot: one with a graze-wound to the face, and another hit dead-on, center of mass in the bulletproof vest.

It doesn't specify where the 3rd officer was hit. Sounds like she might have spent some time on the range!

RIP

[Richard Steele]

43. That's three "maybes" in a row you've got there.

NOW who is "appearing to be in possession of facts that are not in the article", eh?

[Azathoth]

60. When did I claim to be in possession of facts that are not in the article?

I don't claim to know anything that doesn't exist in the article. I simply pointed out that a reasonable argument can be constructed that refutes the wild assumptions that many here are jumping to, which means that such assumptions can not be made without further information.

Please at least bother to read my post before responding.

[WinkyDink]

123. That is one GARGANTUAN assumption.

[Azathoth]

156. No, it's called taking someone at their word for lack of any contrary evidence n/t

[WinkyDink]

157. Convenient that the old lady is dead.

[unblock]

41. the article claims they ANNOUNCED AND KNOCKED

whether or not that's true, i don't know, but there's nothing in the article that suggests this was a no-knock situation.

[benEzra]

88. The Supreme Court has ruled

that a "knock an announce" requirement is satisfied by banging on the door, possibly yelling "police" through the door (vague requirement there), and then kicking the door in after three to five seconds, as I recall.

Yes, the police might have satisfied the "knock and announce" check box on the warrant. But that doesn't mean they made sure the woman knew who they were, and it doesn't mean they gave her time to get to the door, much less open it. Maybe they did, but probably they didn't.

[BreweryYardRat]

48. Whose brilliant idea was it to have plainclothes cops serving warrants anyway?

Plainclothes should be investigation/undercover work.

A common trick of burglars nowadays is to pose as plainclothes cops and bust in. That's probably what this old lady thought was happening. Bad situation all the way around.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

52. I'm wondering if someone with law enforcement background...

...can answer this question. What purpose does it serve to have plainclothes officers serving warrants? That just seems like it's asking for trouble.

[bonito]

49. Something missing here, who was the warrant for?

and for what?

[AIJ Alom]

53. They don't even know or remember ?

Atlanta police declined to say what they were searching for when they went to Johnston's home. The woman's niece, Dozier, who lives in Fayette County, said she had yet to be told by police that her aunt was dead even though police had called a news conference and talked to reporters outside Grady Memorial Hospital.

From above article.

[genieroze]

159. different source

The officers had gone to the old woman's house with a search warrant after buying drugs there from a man known only as Sam, police said. Police issued a "John Doe" warrant on Wednesday for the arrest of Sam, believed to be in his early to mid 30s, who allegedly sold the drugs to the undercover agent. Dreher would not say how the dealer knew Johnston

http://www.pbsblog.com/tinc?key=B1fx7m4Y&id=3256378&design-output-mode=js&design-css-mode=standard

[indepat]

50. Amukikka, Amurikkka, God shed W's grace on thee

:scared:

[indepat]

51. What's wrong with this scene?

[flamingpie2500]

56. the relatives should be sued for buying her the gun.

lot of good it did for her to have one. A german shephard would have sufficed for protection.

[benEzra]

62. I disagree...

the relatives should be sued for buying her the gun. lot of good it did for her to have one. A german shephard would have sufficed for protection.

In most cases, the people kicking in her door would NOT have been police and she would have probably prevailed, as they would have been much less likely to have been wearing armor, and would probably not have had police-level training. And German Shepherds are great, but a dog isn't an option for everybody. (I'd say German Shepherd + gun as a last resort would be the best approach.)

In my opinion, the problem here wasn't that the woman owned a gun and knew how to use it, it was that the police wrongfully put her in a situation in which most reasonable people would have believed themselves to be under criminal attack. 40% of American households own guns, and in Georgia the percentage is probably higher. Kicking in people's doors in street clothes is just asking for something like this to happen.

FWIW, she was apparently a pretty decent shot--at least 3 hits on 3 moving targets in two or three seconds (perhaps more since other shots might have impacted the officers' body armor), in a highly dynamic environment. So it doesn't sound like she was a novice.

Maybe I'm cynical, but I expect we'll see some more news stories in the next few days telling us what an Evil Person she was, and how she had it coming (deliberately ambushed the officers knowing full well they were police, was selling drugs to kindergarteners, etc. etc.).

Does anyone know what ethnicity the deceased woman was?

[flamingpie2500]

65. from another article on a different thread:

'According to family members, Johnson lived alone. Dozier says that Johnson did have a firearm. She says she took her aunt to get a permit for that firearm, for her own protection.

http://www.wxia.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=87993

[Richard Steele]

69. That says "permit", not "gun". nm

[flamingpie2500]

73. I stand corrected--apparently they KNEW she had a gun. Lucky one of

them wasn't shot.

[Richard Steele]

76. "Lucky one of them wasn't shot". Really? How do you figure?

[flamingpie2500]

132. "them" meaning one of her own relatives.

[Richard Steele]

161. I know what the "them" meant. My question still stands- how do you figure?

[benEzra]

95. All three of them were shot...as was she.

But they were probably wearing concealed body armor; she wasn't.

[conscious evolution]

67. What the FUCK

'the relatives should be sued for buying her the gun.'
Read the article!woman had. 'Dozier said her aunt owned a pistol. "I don't know what kind and it was rusty, but apparently it was working well."'
'A german shephard would have sufficed for protection'
In Atl the cops would have shot the dog.Happens here.

Red Dog,as the narco cops call themselves,have a history here of doing fucked up shit.They followed me around for three weeks several years ago because I happened to live next door to an apartment they had a warrant for.An empty apartment.They assumed that they got the wrong address and that I was the one they were looking for.They were wrong.By the first week they should have realized that I was in AA.I know this because they FOLLOWED me to meetings and actually came into the meetings.
FUCK RED DOG!

:mad: :wtf: :grr: :rant:

[Richard Steele]

77. Some people subscribe to the "Cops can do no wrong" mindset.

Silly folks, they are.

[conscious evolution]

82. silly?

More like head up their asses folks.
We need national healthcare for rectalcranialectomy's if nothing else.

[Paladin]

135. Yeah, Well

Such people are offset by the "Cops Are Evil And Deserve To Die, Regardless Of All The Circumstances Being Known" folks, of which we have an abundance in this thread. Happy?

[slackmaster]

113. If she had a German Shepherd, the cops would have shot it

:hide:

[flamingpie2500]

130. better a dog than a human being

[Mythsaje]

140. Had they been actual criminals

rather than thugs with badges, her gun would've done her a LOT of good.

Though I'll never argue against the value of a dog--or several.

Of course, I'm speaking from the position of someone with several dogs and no guns. Just a big-ass knife I know how to use very well.

[T Town Jake]

152. Knew it wouldn't be long before someone in the anti-RKBA crowd....

...would try to make ideological hay out of this tragic, tragic story.

You should be ashamed.

[qanda]

59. The niece found out about it on television

I told my family last night that they were trying to get out in front of this story. They screwed up and they are going to make themselves out to be the victims. They will tell the public that they did everything right and by the time they're finished I'm sure the old woman's house will be filled with drugs.

[lonestarnot]

70. WTF?!!!!

:grr:

[DrBloodmoney]

81. "Here's your abuse of power"

For the apologists up-thread (namely Azathoth):

1. They knocked and announced. Then they knocked the door down.
2. They were in plain clothes.
3. How much time do you think they gave her to get to the door? Do you think she heard them announce themselves through the door?
4. They did not find drugs at her house. If they had, the police would be falling over themselves to let the citizenry know. The fact that they performed their paramilitary raid on her house without proper recon demonstrates incredible hubris and stupidity.

This is a disgusting abuse of power that happens everyday all across America. I'm incredibly impressed that she tagged three of them before being murdered. Blaze of glory indeed. I hope that the African-American community does some major protests down there.

Let's put her up on the big board, shall we:

Botched Paramilitary Police Raids

It is time to end the War on Drugs now. The democrats have got to step up to the plate on this issue.

[flamingpie2500]

91. Stopping the war on drugs is right on!! Then lets work on banning handguns!

[benEzra]

110. So you still want Prohibition, just on things YOU don't like?

Stopping the war on drugs is right on!! Then lets work on banning handguns!

I own handguns, as does my wife and, oh, 40 million others, lawfully and responsibly, which is an American tradition dating back, oh, 400 years or so.

Am I to understand that if this woman were shot and killed in the War on Lawfully Owned Guns instead of the War on Non-Approved Herbs, you'd be OK with it?

FWIW, I oppose the "war on drugs" as it is currently practiced, and strongly support the legalization of cannabinoids, even though I don't use them and never have. I'd appreciate a little reciprocity on the civil liberties, if you wouldn't mind too much. Criminalize the criminal misuse of firearms all you want, but stay out of our family's gun safe. :)

[DrBloodmoney]

116. I'm all for a well-armed citizenry.

Legally owned firearms are A-OK in my book.

[flamingpie2500]

133. I have no problem with people owning rifles. Handguns are not good

for much of anything except violence, threats, false sense of self protection. Personally I don't think the police should carry them. It works quite well in Britain.

[benEzra]

138. 40 million law-abiding Americans do disagree with you, though...

I completely understand your not liking handguns--or not liking the fact that others own them--but we do own them, lawfully and responsibly, and we're keeping them. But, you probably wouldn't like our family's rifles, either. :P

FWIW, my father did have a "save" via a handgun in the early 1970's, when I was a child. No shots fired; the would-be aggressors saw that he was armed, and left.

I guess I'm trying to say that I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree, and can say with a great deal of certainty that in the United States, a War on Handgun Ownership would be about as successful as the War on Drugs.

[MadHound]

142. Actually, if you had read the article,

You would have found that her gun was doing her a lot of good, except for the fact that it was the armored police. Shot one in the leg, one in the arm, and one in the center of the chest. This last one would have died, except for the armor. Now then, if this had been an unarmored gang, they would have been fleeing at this point, they had no use for armed citizenry, especially ones that shoot well. And her gun would have saved her. Sadly, instead, she was going up against the well armored police, and while she put up a valiant fight, they killed her. So, while her gun was of no use against cops, it would have been more than sufficient against home invaders and criminals.

[Richard Steele]

160. Sorry, no knee-jerk nanny stateism for me, thanks.

[johnnie]

85. C'mon people

It was reported they "knocked and announced". If anything it was a tragic accident. Before I jump up and down for joy because some cops got shot :eyes: , I would like to see if the cops were in the right. They claim they had the right house and the warrant was legal. Just because the woman was 92, that doesn't put her above the law. She fired on the cops, and I would guess I would have fired back too.

[WI_DEM]

93. I agree which is why I said in my post--a lot of unanswered questions

I don't think we know all the facts and just because the neice paints her as a nice, sweet old lady concerned with crime doesn't mean the police didn't have some reason to be investigating her home. On the other hand, it is probable that the police were looking for information regarding someone else who wasn't at the home at the time. I think the old lady may have been frightened and I wonder if the police could have handled it differently (meaning not breaking down her door), but once the shots started they really had no choice--it was their lives or hers.

[benEzra]

94. You know what "knock and announce" means, right?

The USSC has recently ruled that in essence, "knock and announce" allows officers to yell something unintelligible through the door three seconds before they kick it down, and count that as having satisfied the warrant. We all have this picture of an officer politely knocking, waiting for someone to respond, and explaining that they are Officer So-and-So of the Such-and-Such Police Department, and that they have a signed warrant to search their home for Such and Such, and would you please be so kind as to open the door. When in actuality, "knock and announce" can mean BANG-BANG-BANG-"garblegarblePolicegarbleWarrantgarble"-SMASH as the door is kicked in.

Maybe the officers did more than the minimum "knock and announce" requirement, maybe they didn't, but the fact that they satisfied the "knock and announce" check box on the warrant means little to this case.

[johnnie]

96. "We all have this picture of an officer politely knocking,"

Who is "we all"? Read this thread, it seems more like "we all" have this picture of the police kicking in doors to every house they walk up to and shooting everyone that moves.

[High Plains]

106. We have that picture because that's what's happening.

The use of SWAT teams to serve search warrants has increased dramatically in the past few years. It is overkill in the vast majority of cases, and this woman is by no means the only victim of this drug war-induced police statism.

[slaveplanet]

119. I have a picture of

thugs in black ski masks rushing the door without knocking, maybe a verbal shout if that, just like we see over and over on the TV show "cops".

Most of us were taught that guys in black ski masks were the bad guys.
Perhaps this elderly lady got a sight of these lurking ski masked thugs though the window, and prepared for the worst.

The real crime here is that public servants are lurking in the shadows wearing black ski masks, plotting military style assaults on family homes. The assaults are plotted at strange hours, usually at night or right before dawn.

Had the police station sent a uniformed officer, during business hours, in a marked patrol car, and knocked politely, she likely would have answered the door, and probably even allowed the officer a walk though once the officer explained his concern. A warrant may not have been neccesary, but if it was, he could then inform her he is allowed to enter, at this point plain clothes officers could accompany. These police departments have dossiers on every one of us.

The police have been militarized, in their opinion, everyone now deserves a full on assault once the slimmest of suspicion has been established. Public service has been usurped by shock and awe.

This is the real purpose of the WOD, mission accomplished.

[qanda]

99. Who is jumping up and down for joy because cops got shot

They're all still alive. A 92 year old woman is dead and we still haven't heard what she did to deserve them being at her house. I believe that had she been the true target of their warrant we would have already heard about it. If you read the article you will know that she was scared about the crime in the area, including the recent rape of a 72 year old woman.

[conscious evolution]

103. I have personnaly seen Red Dog in action.

They came to an (empty) apartment next to mine.They LIGHTLY tapped on the door and said in a low volumn "police".Then proceeded to kick the door in.
I was sitting on my porch 10' away and barely heard what they said.There was no way that anyone who might have been in the apartment could have heard them announce themselves.The nieghbor on the otherside didn't even hear them kick the door open.
Once they realized that there was no one living there(the previous tenant,A 68 year old had died 7 months earlier and the apartment had sat empty since)they noticed me sitting on my porch and started to hassle me!I had to call the 911 to get them to back off.They still followed me around for three weeks,called my employer and landlord about me and god only knows what else.
FUCK RED DOG!

[MUSTANG_2004]

150. No, they didn't knock and announce

They announced while breaking in the door, according to a televised conference. Big difference.

[WI_DEM]

87. It's a strange case with a lot of unanswered questions.

[Kagemusha]

101. Too true, and I hope someday people get answers

People should be able to have more confidence in the police than this.

[treestar]

120. This was exactly the caution over no-knock warrants

That it would get police shot or killed. And therefore it would start a gun battle that would get other people killed.

[Catherine Vincent]

122. That's so sad.

My parents had a visit a while ago from plain clothes policemen that paid a visit to their home. Luckily it was a nice evening and they were sitting outside enjoying the weather. They just walked through the gate (luckily not with guns drawn) and asked for a Michael such and such. My mother told me he (which is my brother) does not live here and that he lives in another state. Apparently someone by the same name as my brother committed a couple of rapes and robberies and they were looking for him. Even though my mom and dad said he doesn't live there, they searched the house anyway. My mother had to find my brother's birth certificate to show proof of his age because the guy was younger. I hate the fact that I wasn't there because I don't know how I would have reacted. My parents said they apologized and left but they still felt violated.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

126. C'mon people.

A gang of thugs busted into a little old lady's house and shot her to death.

If this had been a gang of inner city youths, people would be calling for their blood.

But apparently it's OK to some, because they were wearing a uniform.

And the only evidence that they "knocked and announced" is the word of a gang of thugs who busted into a little old lady's house and shot her to death.

[Quantess]

134. sometimes they get the address wrong, too.

gangs of thugs, that is.

[Scout]

131. see post 54 in the LBN thread for an important update

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2626452&mesg_id=2627115

thanks to RamboLiberal for the post, copied below:
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/10374909/detail.html

Atlanta Police Asst. Chief Alan Dreher said at a news conference Wednesday that an undercover officer made a drug purchase at Johnston’s address late Tuesday afternoon from a male suspect. Officers were able to obtain a search warrant after that.

Asst. Chief Dreher said as they were executing the search warrant, the officers announced themselves and then forced open the door. Officials say the warrant was a “No Knock” warrant – meaning that the officers did not knock before forcing open the door, but they did announce themselves.

Dreher said as soon as the officers forced open the door, Johnston shot at the officers and the officers returned fire to protect themselves. One officer was shot 3 times – once in the leg, on the side of the face and once in his bulletproof vest. One officer was hit in the leg and another hit in their arm. All officers are on paid administrative leave pending an investigation – as is common.

Officials say they have not made any arrests in the case and they have not located the male suspect. Dreher said suspected narcotics were recovered from the home but they are awaiting lab results to confirm the items are drugs.

Dreher said a marked patrol vehicle was parked in front of the residence and the word “Police” was written across the front and back of the narcotics team’s vests. He also said only a matter of minutes passed between when officers arrived on the scene and when they forced open the door.

[benEzra]

136. Important point--it turns out this was a NO-KNOCK warrant...

and its tragic outcome is precisely why the FBI has stated that no-knocks should ONLY be used in special circumstances, because their casual use would endanger both citizens and the police:

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1997/may976.htm

UNDERLYING RATIONALE FOR KNOCK AND ANNOUNCE

The Supreme Court has determined that "every householder, the good and the bad, the guilty and the innocent, is entitled to the protection designed to secure the common interest against unlawful invasion of the house."19 The knock and announce rule provides citizens with psychological security, knowing that one need not fear an unexpected intrusion. Privacy interests also are protected, avoiding unnecessary embarrassment, shock, or property damage resulting from an unannounced entry.

The (knock and announce) rule serves to protect both the individual citizen and the police from the risk of harm and the potential for violence that may occur as a result of an unannounced entry.20 Announcement protects officers by ensuring that they are not "mistaken for prowlers and shot down by a fearful householder."21 Innocent citizens also are protected from law enforcement officers who mistakenly might shoot armed occupants who merely are trying to defend themselves from who they preceive to be armed intruders.

[piedmont]

137. yeah, the TV news reported it as no-knock last night...

but the articles I could find at the time said it wasn't. I should have made it clear that the no-knock part of my post came from the news.

The apologists on this thread must be ok with citizens having to fear BOTH police and criminals invading their homes. If you defend yourself and it's the police, you're dead. If you don't, and it's a criminal, you may also be dead. This beat-your-door-down business (no-knock or not) is ridiculous and NOT characteristic of a free society.

[Mythsaje]

139. I had a feeling...

Seems I was correct.

[DrBloodmoney]

143. She had a wheelchair ramp at her house

Check out the link. That should have given the cops a little clue...

933 Neal St. Atlanta, Ga

Here's her house with a wheelchair ramp

[ecstatic]

144. Am I the only person who thinks she may have been FRAMED BY THE COPS

How many grannies do you know who not only sit around the house ARMED, but also are able to get in 3 non-fatal shots? Notice, none of the shot officers died? They HAD to clean up their bullshit mess somehow, and that's when they took straws to see who would literally 'take the bullet' to make their cold blooded murder look like self defense.


Besides that, this plainclothes cop thuggery has got to stop! The last major major case I recall is when they shot up a young teen who was days away from graduation, because they claimed it looked like he was carjacking an SUV. He lost his life and there was major outcry.

[ThomWV]

149. Let Me Tell Ya, If I Go At 92 That's How I Want To Do It

Fuck 'em all ....

[MUSTANG_2004]

151. I agree!

[Pushed To The Left]

163. This is inexcusable. This woman's blood is on the hands

of every American who blindly supports the "War on Drugs", no-knock warrants for drug searches, etc. It seems obvious that the drug problem could be better handled as a health issue rather than a legal one. Now, we have three wounded officers and an innocent 92-year-old woman is dead. For what? Because we need to lock people up for non-violent drug offenses? As happy as I am about the recent election results, our country has a LONG way to go. If any candidate in either party told the truth about this drug war, they might have a hard time getting elected. What is wrong with people in this country?

[gollygee]

166. I'm withholding judgement

I need more information before I can say that it was more than a tragic error.

Did they actually knock and announce who they were?

[Mugu]

167. I have read many accounts of gunfights,

some from the old-west, some during wartime, and others of modern-day LEO's. The one thing that never ceases to amaze me is the phenomenon of audio-exclusion and tunnel vision that occurs during fight-or-flight situations. Many participants claim that during the fight they only remember seeing the fire on the muzzle of their adversarie's weapon and heard little or no sound.

Many thought that when attempting to return fire that their weapon was misfiring because of no audible blast and no felt recoil even while the weapon was working correctly.

Others claimed that they counted their shots and quit pulling the trigger upon firing their allocated ammunition. But witnesses testified that the shooter continued stroking the trigger on the weapon for some seconds after the fight was settled and the weapon was empty.

In a dark house, with flashlights shining in peoples faces in the dead of night, uniforms can be unseen and verbal commands can be unheard. Add to that the fact that a 92YO woman tagged three officers before being neutralized. No matter how that ends, it's going to be embarrassing.

There has to be better way of taking down suspects than early morning invasions by the police into somebodies “Castle.”

Regards,

Mugu