WE all have a racist prejudiced bent

[BoneDaddy]

it just matters how far along the continuum you fall. On one end you have people acting out their hatred, rage, and violence and on the opposite side you have people who may hold negative views about a group of people but who are aware of these thoughts and attempt to not have such bias affect the way the interact with people from those groups.

Any person who claims they are not racist, biased or prejudiced against a group of people is either lying or is extremely unaware of themselves.

All people from all cultures have bias and prejudice.

Even in here, the "bastion" of liberal, progressive thought we have it and it permeates all of our interactions. On a whole, I think liberals are much more aware of their bias than conservatives, but we are not without our negative stereotypes, our hypocrisies, and blind spots. Religious fundamentalists, cops, the military, republcans, white men, rich people, corporate people, conservatists are often painted with as broad a brush as the hard core racists do to the groups they dislike. And it is often applauded instead of pointed out.

And this idea that people of color, women, and other historically victimized groups cannot be racist, biased or prejudiced is not only ridiculous, it is totally unrealistic.

I work in a multicultural school where over 85 different languages/dialects are spoken among the community. I have worked with students from all over the world from every continent, creed, religion and race. They all have their prejudices and tribal beliefs about other people.

As an example I will take the Latino community. I joke with one of my latina co-workers about what we see among the diverse Latino population. The Cubans see themselves at the top of the list, then come the Puerto Rica kids, then the Mexicans and Central/South Americans and then everyone pisses on the Dominicans. Sure, this is part and parcel to colonization of these areas, but you see this same kind of pissing contest among every group. I am Irish and the "white lace" Irish think they are better than the "shanty" Irish. The Southern Irish see themselves as more evolved than the Northern Irish. Then we move into the realm of which County is better than the other. The city folk see themselves as better than the country bumpkins and so on and so on.

My point is that we all struggle with our "tribal" beliefs about one another and the only way to really address this is NOT to pretend that we do not have these thoughts and beliefs, but to be honest about them, acknowledge them and work hard at trying not to give energy or voice to our bias.

[Joe Chi Minh]

1. A very thoughtful and useful post.

[Richard Steele]

3. Yes, it certainly was. Recommended.

[ixion]

2. very well put, BoneDaddy

kicked and recommended.

:applause:

[gmoney]

4. Interesting stance...

This following Randi Rhodes' comments on the Michael Richards thing. Seems elements of the left are playing into the right's long-term assertions of racism.

The difference between "racially aware" and "racist" is a nuance that's going to be hard to defend...

[Annces]

5. I agree

Racism, classism, sexism permeates our culture and everyday life. Who you choose to be more friendly with inevitably brings up your own prejudices, and this extends outward.

[Efilroft Sul]

6. Interesting take on the Latino community's trickle-down pecking order.

I think we're all prejudiced about race, and we all have certain preconceived notions about one another. How we act upon those prejudices, however, determines whether or not we're racist.

Good post, BoneDaddy.

[ktlyon]

7. Zen Buddhists might be the exception if they are able to live

the tenants which is very difficult and takes years of practice. Westerners coming from our culture have to completely reprogram their thinking to even begin to understand let alone put into daily practice the lessons of the Buddha.

definitely racism is alive and still taking a toll

[BoneDaddy]

11. The Dali Lama himself

would say that he harbors these thoughts. The biggest difference between him and everyone else is that Buddhists train themselves to by hyper aware of their thoughts and emotions and would see these thoughts and experiences as just thoughts, giving them no power eliminating the seed that would germinate into behavior that is racist, sexist etc..

It is when we deny these thoughts that we give them power.

[ktlyon]

22. just so everyone knows the Dali Lama is not Zen

but your point is valid. What I'm trying to say is if one take these teachings into yourself completely there will be not be these thoughts at all. Are your Buddhist? Have you ever studied or tried to apply these practices? Just asking, this is not an attack but a clarification.

[BoneDaddy]

26. Yes

I know the Dali Lama is not ZEn, I was just piggy backing off your point and trying to use one of the most well known Buddhist figures as an example.

I am not an official buddhist, but I do love their philosophy and I do meditate.

[ktlyon]

73. It sounded like you had some knowledge of Buddhism

I think our culture is a breeding ground for prejudice and racism. Racism in particular has been driven underground and is very much still alive. It will take many generations for this type of thinking to disappear. We must expose it to the light of day for the destructive results it causes.

"I am not an official Buddhist, but I do love their philosophy and I do meditate."
That is pretty much where I am too.

[BoneDaddy]

81. So true

I agree...and Buddhism is probably one of the religious philosophies that addresses it the best. But remember that "buddhist" nations like Japan still brutalized the Chinese and others, so any ism can be corrupted.

[Chico Man]

110. The Koreans were probably brutalized the most during their occupation

And one cannot overlook the prejudice between clans present throughout all of the feudal period of Japan. There was vicious prejudice and civil war, all driven in part by Zen Buddhist beliefs....

[TahitiNut]

105. "I am not an official Buddhist, but I do love their philosophy and I do meditate."

That makes three of us ... and a few others on DU.

(Although I don't know how "official" one can be in a dogma-eschewing context.)

[zanne]

8. A word of caution.

I remember the Reagan administration well, because there was alot of talk like this. (How we're all racist and we really can't help it, and anybody who doesn't admit to that is a liar.)
Well, that gave racists all over the country the permission they needed to come out of the closet. At the Department Store where I worked at the time, the general manager told us all to "follow" Black people, because, as she put it "Let's face it--Black people steal". When I confronted her about it, she said "Well, at least I'm being honest". I soon started running into this kind of reasoning quite a bit. (I got the NAACP involved and the store was investigated).
I know what the OP meant, but we have to careful about slippery slopes.

[FormerDittoHead]

13. It would seem this behavior is exactly what the OP was talking about...

This 'license' as you describe it is a perversion of the idea. This, of course, is no surprise for conservatives to pervert anything to serve their self interests and whims, as they do with the constitution.

Let's be clear that the idea is to be aware of our prejudices, not to deny their existence, so we can be sure not to ACT upon them, so we don't unconsciously (or CONSCIOUSLY!) USE them without at least being aware of the source of our decisions.

[Vorta]

108. Agreed. Awareness and acceptance is not license.

I frankly am more concerned about the person who is professionally not-racist. They remind me a bit of the scene in The Crucible where the smith is asked to make a profession of faith. He is the most decent man in the town, a flawed man, but he doesn't wear his faith on his sleeve.

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

[Guaranteed]

109. BINGO. The key is to face them first. nt

[seabeyond]

9. not everyone is hateful. i think that is what we are going after

with racist and bigots.... we are argung and action not a thinking.

and i am not going for my dictionary... but dont those words have superior in them? i dont think eveyrone feels superior over another person

[seabeyond]

15. i dont agree. here are the definitions

racism: the notion ones own ethnic stock is superior

bigotry: an intolerant person in the matters of religion, race and politics

i dont agree with you that we are all racists. i do NOT in any way have a notion anywhere within my self that my race is superior to another....and though i may get pissed off about the politics, even my own religion right now, i have no desire to be intolerant of either. i certainly see the valid need for the existance of these group. that cannot be intolerance

[BoneDaddy]

27. The seeds of racism

have their roots in bigotry and bias, it takes it to another level. Bigotry, like racism, is the idea that this person, because of their group they belong to, are inferior.

[seabeyond]

32. then i challenge you that we ALL feel this. i do not.

we are capable as humans to be able to not want the choices of another, or agree with them withOUT feeling superior. it is something i consistently attack on this board. and if you ever hear that in disagreement i have a feeling of superiority, whoop my ass.

[BoneDaddy]

37. So you are saying

you have never or still do feel superior to people at times? Wow.

I sure do, but then I catch myself and remind myself that is not who I want to be.

[seabeyond]

56. i have thought about this. this isn't something i am glib with....

it is something i have spent a lot of time with over decades. i dont know that i ever consciously felt superior to others. lets bring in ego. but living in ego i do know that it was present subconsciously... living in ego which is thru brain. not living ego but living thru heart which reaches spirit.... allows us to be one. i didn't understand the one cause ego interfered wanting me to be unique. and thinking of the we are all one concept i felt would take away my uniqueness. a handful of years ago i recognized that not to be a truth. when sitting in one,.. i am a part of all. as a part of all, how can i think self superior to self. saying even in the female of who i am, i also have the male. i recognize and embrace. seeing that i have more male in me than a lot of female,.... i was able to identify this easily. but embracing the male and female of who i am..... allows me to be one

same with religion,.... people speak a particular religion. i have felt every religion and non religion.... i feel a one with all

politically we had discussion on this board about moderate democrat and the liberal... so many where trying to identify and define. i on the other hand spent my time asking, i am the conservative, liberal, moderate, libertarian.... where do i belong

when one allows ego to not run the show, not a dismissal, but along for the ride, one is connected with spirit.... all spirit... and see the foolishness of separation

there is ton more in this. may not be clear r understood, all about ones experience in life, and thinking, and how much of ego controls, ect....

i do not do other people for a number of reasons. i do me. that allows me to not..... decide who another is

[Cleita]

77. I would take that a step further. It's hating someone for who they

are, a condition they have no control over, like the color of their skin, their status in the pecking order of society and so on. It seems also that the more underprivileged a group of people are, the more they are hated, like African Americans before the civil rights movement, Latino immigrants today and in our own backyard the homeless.

Then the ruling order starts accusing them of things that exist within the demography because of their underclass status but don't apply to most of them to make them seem criminal, for instance the label of welfare queens for African Americans, the illegal label on immigrant workers and the alcoholic bum label on the homeless.

So even if people are biased and prejudiced, I believe if they recognize it and try to understand the people they don't like it goes a long way in defeating bigotry. Instead the majority of people prefer to tack on the labels to make the people they fear and don't like into criminals.

[grizmaster]

10. an honest person knows this is a continuing personal battle

A friend of mine who works in IT says computer security is a goal not a feature.

And likewise for racism and other prejudices. You can say you "try" not to be racist, but beware whether your own BS detector is working when you start believing yourself when you say you "aren't" racist.

So just as it's a continuing battle to weed out institutional and legal prejudice, so to for our own hopefully well-intentioned internal battle.

edited for clarity

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

19. Thanks for posting this

Many of the RW voters don't know they are racist. They just know that the ad where the white girl is calling Harold Ford bothers them.

If you are not aware of your biases, it is much more likely that you will act on them.

[grizmaster]

38. I'd go maybe a hair farther with that

I'd say try to be aware that no matter how well thought you are, you are still unaware of all your biases.


I'll go a mea culpa on this one to demonstrate. After years of being a blue collar worker with hippy attitudes toward formal dress, I started to get a chip on my shoulder when some business decision, or political decision came from the "suit and tie" crowd that had executive power in the situation.

When one particular bone-headed decision came down in a place I worked that showed the front office didn't have a clue about the practical aspects that made their decision absurd, impossible to put in action, and costly, I commented, "sounds like a suit and tie decision to me." which got a big laugh out of my coworkers.

Well that phrase started to creep into my comments more often till years later someone looked at me with this puzzled and somewhat hurt expression on his face and called me on why I would say such a simple-minded over-generalization. I stopped, blinked a couple of times, and admitted I really didn't have a good reason to use the term "suit and tie" as a term of universal derision.

I've never made the comment again. But I'll be honest, I still have to stop myself from immediately making snap judgements about people just because they wear suits.

....and so the battle continues.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

48. Post of the day^H^H^Hmonth.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[grizmaster]

55. I'm not sure "^H^H^" means, but thanks

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

72. ^H is geekspeak for the backspace key -nt

[FormerDittoHead]

12. Thank you for posting this...

I was feeling 'out of it' with the barrage of "I've never had any racist thought about anything racist about any race" messages...

As others here have written, our society is infused with different races. Our history IS the history of the struggle of peoples who are grouped by thing such as race, nationality, etc.

Do I have racist thoughts? Yes. Have I said racist things? Yes. (although not in front of an audience) Do I act upon my racist thoughts? Maybe I have, but unless I am AWARE of the racist elements in my thinking will I be able to control them.

I just realized below I wrote basically what you already wrote, so instead I will quote you in agreement:

"...we all struggle with our "tribal" beliefs about one another and the only way to really address this is NOT to pretend that we do not have these thoughts and beliefs, but to be honest about them, acknowledge them and work hard at trying not to give energy or voice to our bias."

[acmavm]

18. Yeah, DU sure has a lot of members who will assuredly be

candidates for sainthood (or whatever) upon their deaths.

I love those threads that say "I've NEVER did (fill in the blank) in my life."

[Vorta]

14. Well said.

We need to get beyond the endless debate on terminology and focus on actions.

[Virginia Dare]

16. Agreed, excellent point...n/t

[NC_Nurse]

17. I like your post.

We are all influenced by those who brought us up and our experiences in our lives. The best we can do is be aware of ourselves AND of others.
I always try to put myself into other people's shoes before I judge them. I also try to look at all sides of an argument. People don't just come up with
beliefs or actions to annoy others - they have reasons that make sense to them. A lot can be learned by looking at those reasons and what they're based on.

I have found that doesn't always win you points on this board.

[LiberalEsto]

20. The first step toward overcoming racism

is to recognize and acknowledge the racist tendencies in one's self.

That was the first thing we learned in the anti-racism program at my college. Back in 1969 I went to a brand-new college with a very large proportion of blacks and Hispanics. I think it was close to 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. Many were "non-traditional" students who would normally not have been admitted to Rutgers, NJ's state university, at the time. Unfortunately over the years Rutgers has watered down the original mission of Livingston College to the point that it is nothing but a residential campus.

Efforts against racism are far and few between these days. Dayton, Ohio has an interracial dialogue program, but I wish there were m more efforts in other communities around the US.

[AnnInLa]

21. At least liberals work constantly to overcome their biases

Repubs have prejucides but defend them as being founded in reality. They rationalize and rationize their biases. Liberals, tho, recognize that their biases are based on a false reality, and work everyday to overcome them and form a new reality. Psych 101 teaches that everyone has these prejudices, they are natural and human. It's what you do with them that counts. IMHO

[BoneDaddy]

29. Liberals, I find

for the most part to be more aware, but they often "demonize" the demonizers and will join in the same type of stereotyping as the right. But overall I would say liberals are more aware.

[Catherine Vincent]

23. That is true.

And hopefully we will all realize we're all human. :)

[zappa_parappa]

24. I don't...I love everyone

except the dutch.

[mopinko]

25. it is in our genes- evolutionary psychology

one of the most interesting ideas i have ever encountered. i think it is like this- we are hard wired to be a little tribe of apes. this makes us look for a big leader, which leads us into the murky world of religion, because we are looking for that tribe, and that leader. we also, on the flip side of that, recognize that there are others, not tribe.
unfortunately, we are hard wired to defend our territory, and acquire more, if our neighboring tribe is weak. so we are constantly, though often unconsciously, probing for those weaknesses, looking for a way to take away what the "not tribe" group have.
we are hard wired for many good things, as well. but these things from the human past cast quite a shadow on our human present.
someday, when we start to really understand and accept evolution instead of creation, maybe we will find a way to get rid of these ugly remnants of our simian past.

[ThomCat]

28. Agreed. That is one of the core things we all need to learn

when dealing with civil rights issues. Everyone is prejudiced in some ways to some extents. Everyone. In a racist culture it's impossible to be entirely free of racism. In a sexist culture it's impossible to be entirely free of sexism. In a homophobic culture it's impossible to be entirely free of homophobia. etc.

The purpose of civil rights isn't to make people pure and free of prejudices, but to put chains on those prejudices so that they have less power. We need to see the prejudice, know the prejudice, and work against it.

People who swear that they aren't prejudiced are only fooling themselves, and they are supporting prejudices by pretending they aren't there.

[BoneDaddy]

50. Exactly

I love people who claim they are not biased or racist on some level. Typically, they put themselves on a high horse, thus feeling more superior to those who are not like them.

[RagingInMiami]

30. Well the Cubans may see themselves at the top of the Latino community

But I can assure you that the Colombians, Venezualans, Argentines and Chilenos also think of themselves as superior to the others.

[BoneDaddy]

45. Of course they do

I didn't mean to put the bad on the Cubans but to point out that in the pecking order in my school, this is how it is seen.

Every culture on the planet struggles with this sense of superiority. You see it globally, locally and familially. It is part of the human condition.

I remember this one movie, forget the name but it was about the polynesian people on Easter island. Due to some genetic expression, half the people had long ears and half had short ear lobes. This led to fractioning of the overall tribe and eventually intra-fighting among them....over the length of their ears....SAD.

[lumberjack_jeff]

31. I have mixed feelings about your post.

I agree with the basic premise: everyone has their predjudices, some are better than others at recognizing them.

A human being that is unable to prejudge (extrapolate from past experience) or discriminate (make value judgements of preference) is at a huge disadvantage.

My concern is the implied navel-gazing that forces people to really scrutinize the presence of and the basis for these predjudices. In my experience, focused attention on a personal limitation does not always create positive change.

I'm Irish, but I'd never thought about any subtle variations in that theme. My ignorance on the term "white lace Irish" made it impossible for me to discriminate on that basis. Ignorance is bliss? Maybe not, but one can't discriminate on factors about which they are ignorant.

[seabeyond]

33. i am so many things, and my kids are even more, i could NOT

identify with a race to FEEL a superiority....

[lumberjack_jeff]

51. Predjudice is not necessarily racist. By that I mean...

In my area, when I meet an Hispanic man, for whom english is a second language, there's strong possibility that he's:
a) an immigrant. Since it is quite difficult for a central american person to immigrate legally, most do it illegally. Is this predjudice or statistical probability?
b) working in the construction trades or (in my area) in forestry. Again, there's a strong statistical basis for this supposition.

Further, if I really analyze my predjudices, I;
c) assume he lacks a strong academic background
d) works hard
e) faces significant cultural barriers to personal success

Why should I make those assumptions? Stereotyping is stereotyping. Assuming that the central asian programmer here on an H1-B visa is a very smart person and skilled in his career is a form of predudicial stereotype, and arguably racially-based.

Can you honestly say that you don't have some stereotypes about this guy?


I think that the OP is correct, it's impossible for a human being to not internalize his/her past experiences. The key is to try to avoid generalizing when doing so carries a risk of harm.

[seabeyond]

64. universe just comes up and slaps me upside the head anymore

when i assume. has become quite a joke with self. it allows me to quckly recognize the error of my ways. i dont miss with assumptins much. reality is, stereotypes has their place. it is a percentage, an odd, yet there are no 100%. i gues it matters if one sees some assumptions as good or bad, i do not.

i walk life seeing a higher, (one) with all things. literally all things. it changes the view of the world.

i am not here to do another person. i know that is an always failure. so i dont. i do me. again, that changes the way one sees, lives and feels in this world. ultimately all these stereotypes that we speak mean nothing. they are just the clothes we wear to walk life on this playing field. i KNOW that in spirit we are one and the same... and that is what i idnetify in a person, not the clothes they wear to represent ego.

very confusing maybe, very different. have come here over time, but allows me not to waste time on a lot of stuff that is sillines to me.

simplicity in life....

[Nikia]

111. But do you feel superior because you are of multiple ethnicities?

Unlike those people with short sighted inbred ancestors, who are doomed to more narrow points of view because of lack of diversity in their family.
I admit that I sometimes feel this way especially when such monoethnic people call us "mutts" or something, as if not being a pure race is something to be ashamed of, instead of the reverse.
When we are attacked because of who we are and we feel this way, we know that we are not immune to prejudice, even if we would not actually do the same to another person.

[seabeyond]

112. i call me a mutt. no.... i simply know better than superior

or inferior. not an option

[BoneDaddy]

41. I don't see "navel gazing" as

focusing on my limitations, but I see your point. The extreme of this are people who get lost in their internal world and don't live in this one. Balance.

I do think a certain amount of introspection and self-awareness is a good thing, but anything taken to an extreme is usually not good for ya.

[grizmaster]

43. try saying you're Irish in Ireland

and you'll get an earful on why you aren't and how much it annoys many Irish when Americans of Irish decent use the term.


btw- I call myself Irish to, but if I make to Ireland as I plan for vacation in spring of '08 I'm going to be biting my tongue when the question is asked. slante

[BoneDaddy]

46. LOL

I am aware of this feeling about Americans who over identify with their Irish roots.

The funny thing about the Irish is that literally dozens of varied conquerors, throughout history, have assimilated within the Irish genetics. The Norse, the Anglo, the Saxons, Normans, Celt, Gaul, Roman, etc.. all have invaded, and adding to the history and culture of the people.

So to say one is 100% Irish is a bit off.

On a funnier note, I frequently remind my prejudiced Italian friends that Hannibal made it to the alps.

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. I'm sure they're sensitive to the idea that most self-described "Irish" don't live there.

[skypilot]

53. discriminating based on factors of which one is ignorant

Interesting point. When I was eighteen and waiting tables, one of my co-workers would spout off about "obnoxious Jews" whenever he encountered an unpleasant customer. I always wondered--and still kinda wonder--how he knew they were Jewish. He was kind of a jackass and I suspect that in his mind onboxiousness and Jewishness were somehow linked so he didn't let his ignorance of the person's ethnicity or religion stop him from spewing.

[The Backlash Cometh]

34. This is going to be very important to understand this coming century.

As different cities get over-populated with one predominant ethnic group, we should learn to recognize that power networks are the enemy, and not the ethnic group, itself. That's why Affirmative Action has a place in our world for the future. Even white people will learn to use it to level the playing fields whereever one ethnic group shows favoritism for their own kind, over others.

[sweetheart]

35. preconception, the enlightenment over the ego

Ego identification will prejudice every'body' naturally to its environmental surroundings,
be they racial, religious, or corporate political, to think 'that' is normal.

I agree with your op, that the roots for prejudice are in every life, in every unreflected
mind, and don't agree, however, that this is the real condition of the human mind.

The body is a false identification, it craves for its next meal, reproduction, fruits of
desire in the future from one's animal instinct... 'future', past... ego/body.

The englithenment, and dispelling of those illusions of bodily difference, that we are
pure consciousness, and that we drive a vehicle for a while, and that we are cut from
that ineffable cloth, is the upside of a religious view, one of universality of humankind,
and the totality that is the true nation of a human wise enlightenment, if the human
life is worth a shit, surely it is not just 'not to be prejudiced', but to accept that
prejudice resides in identifying with the ego/the past/ and the invoking of ego-self defenses
and personal politics, wherease to drop all the preconceptions and to celibrate being alive
in a given moment, then is to challenge those prejudices, like you have with this op.

The prejudice that perception is continuous, rather than discrete, is such a cultural fallacy indeed,
the continuity of time and self, ignoring death and reality, for a false appearance of security
in illusions that after the football game, the war will go away.

:-)

[seabeyond]

65. this is what i am talking. walking life thru ego,.... or the heart

two very different ways to live this life

[BoneDaddy]

67. True

but you are describing a process that usually takes a life time to work on and it usually involves not just an opening of the heart but a discriminating mind that "sees" how we think and how that is connected to what we feel and do.

[seabeyond]

69. except,.... what i have learned with childen... probably why i was

able to get here and identify. i tell my kids, all kids they have a huge amount to teach us adults.

i have found the kids are least contaminated? (not negative, again higher in all things even this) most naked (without the clothes to represent ego) purist..... saying it takes time for them to get their cloaks, robes, protections on. then they walk this earth well protecting all their vulnerablities. this is what we as a society teach them to do. naked on naked with my babies, the feeling the need, not intellectualizing the need.... allowed me to see how not only do we do this with our kids, but recognize all i do. one of my greatest lesson was to allow myself to be vulnerable. i did a kick ass job protecting myself. what i found when i no longer protect that vulnerability.... i was no longer vulnerable. the cloaks, coats and clothing fell off. i started to feel more free and less restricted. and life..... became so very much... easier

my kids are beyond a lot of adults in this journey because.... i allow them to be, honor what they see and validate, i am an example of so even though they cloak themselves today, in time, they will be more aware of their ability to take that cloak off.

i honor each person journey, the pains, joy, anger, sadness, happiness. it is theirs to do. i do not attach myself to others chices. i know it is theirs to do, not mine and i would not want it any other way. and so what if it takes a lifetime. maybe that is the game, our job, what we do here on earth.

i think we are progresing in collective wisdom. i think we have taken a step back, but will take a couple huge steps forward. what we are today is much more enlightened than in the past.

it is all good.

(discriminating implies resticting,..... i am never for that)

[meldroc]

36. I agree. Everyone has a little bit of bigotry. Even me.

Harvard University has an online psychology test series that you could take. Check it out.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

One of them was to test to see if you had any subconscious racism. It would flash pictures of white people and black people; along with "good" words such as excellent, precious, brilliant and judicious, along with "bad" words such as evil, vicious, nasty and filthy. You would select good words and bad words in several short sequences, and the computer would time you, noting if there's a difference in response times when you have "good" words next to whites, "bad" words next to blacks, and vice versa.

The test told me I had a significant unconscious bias against black individuals. :( I'll bet that a significant number of people who don't think of themselves as racist will get the same result. Don't get me wrong. Consciously, I absolutely abhor racism and any sort of bigotry. I have friends and coworkers from all sorts of racial, ethnic, religious and sexual backgrounds, and I go out of my way to be decent to everyone, no matter their skin color or accent or religion.

But that unconscious bias is in me. It's in all of us. We all have that little devil on our shoulders, wearing white Klansman sheets, whispering those ugly thoughts into our ears. We have to aware of that and make sure that we can stop our inner Klansman and treat everyone we meet as the human beings they are.

[porphyrian]

39. Bias is often due to preference for one group rather than hatred for another.

They don't mean the same thing, but would both be categorized the same way in a study designed to show only bias.

[BoneDaddy]

42. Semantics

For the purpose of understanding where bias and racism come from, I think it is safe to say that they both originate with our thinking process and how this thinking has been inculcated into who we are by family, society, tribal think etc...

They both come from the same place, but I would agree that the expression and intensity of bias and racis (or any ism) may be different.

[porphyrian]

44. I think there's absolutely a difference between bias and -isms.

An -ist may always exhibit bias, but bias does not always mean -ism. They are not reflexive, and it's bad science to assume that they are.

[BoneDaddy]

49. If you read my post I never said they

were the exact same thing, but they both have their origin in awareness, consciousness and the thought process and it is there that these bias' and isms need to be confronted ultimately on a daily basis.

[porphyrian]

54. I read your post, and I didn't make any claims as to what you said, DefensiveDaddy.

I was making my own point, and I still stand by my assertion.

[BoneDaddy]

57. Fair enough

but that was never my point to say that bias and racism were the exact same thing, only that we ALL have elements of these things in our consciousness and that anyone to claim otherwise is not aware.

[lumberjack_jeff]

58. I think it's interesting how people can decieve themselves about this point

I am a stay-at-home dad. If I were (to suffer the significant misfortune ;) )to return to work, I'd have to choose a child care provider. Even given my experiences, a male applicant would have a higher barrier in the interview than a female one.

It's absolutely predjudicial, yet it doesn't mean that I hate men.

[BoneDaddy]

62. Hate is the operative word

Hate to me is the far end of the racist/prejudiced spectrum.

Let's change your phrasing around. Instead of using "male" as the descriptive factor, what if it was "black". Would you then be a racist if you didn't want your kids raised by a black person. So what makes it more acceptable to use "male"? It is, my guess, that it is more acceptable to be biased against men, then black people, especially in a liberal venue, where men are often acceptable targets. I am assuming you are male too and patriarchy has made men not trust fellow men.

See I would disagree, I may agree you may not "hate" men, but you don't trust them on some level, be it based upon your history, what you have been told etc. Does that make it ok then?

Again, I think these things exist on a continuum, with bias and prejudice on one end and demonstrative violence (active racism, sexism etc) on the other end. We may not be

[lumberjack_jeff]

85. Stereotype, bias, predjudice, discrimination, bigotry, hate

I think you've made a good point that these things are not the same thing. Are they a continuum? I have to think about that some more. An inability to discriminate or prejudge would be a big disability for a human. Whether we apply it to food, our personal safety or shopping, they are necessary traits that rely upon bias and stereotyping to work.

Is it inappropriate bigotry to avoid bad neighborhoods after dark? To coach our kids to not talk to strangers? To avoid purchasing Italian cars?

Do I trust men (in general) to be skilled child care providers? In my experience, that's often not the case and I attribute it to poor cultural modeling. I've become (adequately) skilled at it by immersion, not because I have had any good role models, nor innate ability, to guide me. Is that a fair or an unfair stereotype? Whether or not it's fair, it's considered acceptable, and that's why I use it as an example.

There are myriad stereotypes that, if we're honest with ourselves, we carry. The trick is to be aware of them and try to avoid reacting to them in harmful ways.

[BoneDaddy]

87. This is frequently

a misconception and again I think it comes down to semantics. Certainly we need discrimination in order to survive. I am not talking about "discrimination" as racism, but rather as the ability to see what is around you and make the appropriate decision based upon that awareness.

I guess the negative discrimination, for me, is usually when the observation is irrational (one person from a culture did this to me, therefore everyone from that culture does the same thing or is the same way)..


So to clarify I am saying discrimination that is based upon an illogical or irrational belief.

[lumberjack_jeff]

94. I'm not sure that negative discrimination is necessarily irrational.

Is it irrational for a rape victim to hate men? Is it irrational for a falsely convicted rapist to hate women?

I would suggest that both people are behaving rationally - an acquired predisposition to deny people trust status based on past experience.

The problem is harmful generalization. It may be rational to distrust an arbitrary group based on past experience, but it is still harmful - both to yourself and the target of your predjudice/bigotry.

I think you're on the right track - appropriately diagnosing the problem is key. Stereotyping is a natural human condition. Bigotry based on those stereotypes is something else.

[BoneDaddy]

96. Yes

i do think it is irrational for a rape victim to hate all men, just as much as it is irrational that a falsely accused rapist hate all women. I can understand WHY they might do that, but I don't agree with it nor is it true.

Give you an example with an interesting twist. I have worked with a 15 year old girl who escaped from the militia camps in Sierra Leone. We good liberals thought we were being sensitive by trying to connect her with a woman who was counselor from Africa who might be better suited to work with her culturally. She declined and asked for a white therapist because in her words "everyone who has ever hurt me has been African". True, from her perspective and I understand why she came to that conclusion, but it is still based on an irrational premise.

[lumberjack_jeff]

107. In your experience, does every used car salesman start from a position of trust?

I've bought lots of cars in my life. After the first couple, I adopted the stereotype that salesmen can be trusted only to a degree - less so than a dentist, for instance. Anything that a used car salesman tells me that is materially important to the transaction must be verified.

Is my predjudice irrational? This stereotype has demonstrably protected my interests in subsequent dealings.

Like my previous example of a male child care provider, if I was a used car salesman myself, I suspect I'd still have the same perspective. Stereotypes aren't only for other people's affinity groups.

I'm not suggesting that racial bias is justified. I'm not suggesting it isn't wrong. The capacity for harm in racial bigotry is much greater than the example I just gave. I'm just suggesting that although wrong, it may or may not be irrational.

IMHO, you're using "irrational" as synonymous with "wrong".

[BoneDaddy]

113. You

are confusing a Job/career with a group of people. Of course there are some jobs that are suspect, but that has never been my claim. We are talkling about gps of people, not salesman who do not represent the totality of people.

Bad analogy.

[lumberjack_jeff]

114. an arbitrary grouping is an arbitrary grouping

A strong case can be made that it is bigoted to treat all used car salesmen as suspect. An equally strong case can be made that this bias has a rational basis.

The difference between the generally benign nature of the above and the very real problem of racism is of degree of unfairness and capacity for harm, not rational/irrational. To dismiss bias as a byproduct of irrationality misdiagnoses the problem.

[KittyWampus]

40. Absolutely. And when a celebrity/everyman gets caught going over the line and

exposing an internal bias, IMO, it's best to try and see it as a learning opportunity. Not an opportunity to parade how unbiased YOU are.

[noonwitch]

47. I agree somewhat with this post, but not completely

I don't think I'm biased in a racial sense at all. I also don't ever refer to myself as "color blind", which I think is just a term we white people use to convince ourselves we aren't racist. I love black people because they are black people, I love latino people because they are latinos, etc. I appreciate them for who they are.

I will admit to an innate bias against some religions, Islam and fundamentalist christianity, mainly because of the expectations those religions have of women-be submissive to men, don't talk in church, cover up your body, hair or face. This is not a bias that would lead me to discriminate against anyone, and I know some totally westernized muslim women who live in the Detroit area. In a muslim country, they would likely be considered heretics, and to recognize this aspect of Islam is realistic, in my book, not biased.

I also recognize that there is a connection between religious extremism and terrorism. At this point in time, it seems that a good number of those extremists who are also terrorists appear to be muslims, although other religious and political groups have practiced that tactic over the years. Yes, some fundies have killed ob/gyns in their anti-abortion zeal, but they are zealots who do not speak for the majority of christians involved in the anti-abortion movement.

I also have issues with some fundamentalist christians who expect women to only be mothers and servants to men. This extreme is rare in most churches, however conservative they may be. The Christian Reformed Church of America, the Roman Catholic Church and others don't ordain women-I will never be a member or a church that doesn't ordain women, but this is a free country and those who want that are free to choose for themselves.

[ripple]

59. Well said, BoneDaddy

We are all a product of our immediate environment and our life experiences. It stands to reason that we would have a distorted or inaccurate view of people and cultures we have had little exposure to.

[Greyhound]

60. According to the Harvard test posted yesterday, I don't.

The problem with your posit is that you make no accommodation for the possibility that some people are simply not like you believe yourself to be. It is true that we do judge others by ourselves, this does not necessarily follow that the judgment is correct.

[BoneDaddy]

63. It is not simply an observation of

my inner world or seeing you thru my "rose colored" glasses, it is an observation of over 20 years of studying human nature, culture and religion. I have never met anyone without some bias.

I am not denying you may very well may be without any bias, I just extremely doubt it based upon what I have experienced.

Good for you.

[elehhhhna]

66. I have biases against weird things:

men who look like Football players, grown women who dress like floozies, parents of children who dress like floozies or gangbangers...

Got a million of 'em.

[Greyhound]

74. I cannot deny bias, I certainly am in several (many?) respects.

It is the blanket accusation of racism that I find fallacious. There is nothing inherent, genetic, or in any way universal, about racism, it is entirely a learned response.

[BoneDaddy]

79. Perhaps

I mispoke in using the term "racism" as I do believe it is learned but it all stems from tribalism.

[grizmaster]

92. see my post #10

or are you finally the one who can cast the first stone?

[goclark]

61. " work hard at trying not to give energy or voice to our bias."

Loved what you said.

As an African American it can sting when I see "Progressives" express their voice with unkind words about people of my race.

I try to explain , from my experience, an African American point of view on issues on this board. Issues such as Reparations, DP etc. .

Sometimes the comments that I as well as others must endure are beyond measure.

Perhaps I am being simplistic but I try to point out "racism" when I see it on a Progressive Board so that those who are not minorities can grow in their understanding of my culture's prospective.

My grandmother always told me, "Don't put anything in writing that you will be ashamed of at a later date."

I wish that before someone fires off a comment about hot button issues that involve race, just think for a moment about how it would sound to the ear of Martin Luther King.

I use MLK because I believe that he is respected by the majority of posters at DU.

PEACE and UNDERSTANDING
Happy Thanksgiving

[tomreedtoon]

68. So what else is new? But a good way of looking at it.

I've seen this kind of nonsense all my life. It was especially bad when I had hoity-toity teachers proclaim they were not prejudiced, and then turn around and malign somebody of another "tribe" and deny it was prejudice.

The concept of "tribe" is pretty useful, come to think of it. It doesn't limit the idea of prejudice to skin color, religion, national origin or sexual orientation. It makes all kinds of prejudice visible.

[BoneDaddy]

83. exactly the point I was trying to make

that it really comes down to tribalism and where we learned to judge others unfairly. Racism and hate are extreme expressions of this tribal bias we are ALL raised with.

I remember my father saying to me "I don't care if you marry someone from a different race, she (She, not he) better be Catholic", hehe. So where my father was able to be cool with other races, he still struggled with the religious bias.

I have two sons and I take it a step further. I dont care who they marry, be they someone from another race, culture or gender, but my bias is that I want them to marry someone smart, hehe. So I am biased against ignorant people. I am aware of my bias, and work hard to fight it every day.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. Oh, Lord.

"Religious fundamentalists, cops, the military, republcans, white men, rich people, corporate people, conservatists are often painted with as broad a brush as the hard core racists do to the groups they dislike."

:nopity:

[BoneDaddy]

80. So you are saying

liberals can't be biased or racist?

[Jed Dilligan]

71. Fundies, cops, republicans, rich, corporate, conservatives...

are all perfectly legitimate targets. They have the choice not to be as they are. Their status is in no way comparable to being black, gay, a woman, etc.

Carried to its extreme your argument would condemn our bias against murderers, child molesters, pimps, wifebeaters, rapists, and embezzlers.

[BoneDaddy]

91. That simply is not true

So based upon your logic liberals, catholics, jews, lawyers, communists, should all be painted with a stereotypical broad brush because choice is involved?

I love the people who use victimization to access power. My group has suffered more than any other, and only me and my group are exempt from the same standard.

EVERYONE suffers from bias and prejudice. Even you.

[Jed Dilligan]

99. Let's parse that out

Yes, it's fair to talk about liberals, lawyers, and communists as groups with common beliefs and practices that they all individually decided to adopt.

Most Jews and Catholics are born with their religion. Furthermore, Jewish refers to an ethnic group as well as a religion. A Jewish person who converted to Lutheranism was just as subject to the Holocaust as someone who didn't convert.

Nice strawman... I never suggested that any group of people be "painted with a stereotypical broad brush." But I don't think the blue line--"good" cops invariably protecting the bad ones--is beyond criticism. Nor is the corporate mentality that CEOs deserve to make thousands of times more than primary producers.

If you're suggesting that criticism should only ever be directed at individuals, you are discrediting a long line of substantive social and political and cultural theory. There are dysfunctions that come from the way certain groups of people operate, the power they exert over other groups, and the advantages they gain from their position. To suggest otherwise is inherently conservative.

[BoneDaddy]

100. delete

self delete...duplicate post

[BoneDaddy]

101. delete

triplicate post...comp nutzed out on me.

[BoneDaddy]

102. YOu entirely missed my point

I never said, EVER SAID (note the emphatics) that these people are beyond criticism, they are totally within the realm of criticism, but much of this process needs to be internal, where we combat our own prejudices. My point was that everyone has bias and is guilty of prejudice, EVERYONE. In an effort to become aware of our prejudices, it comes back to developing awareness about it and taking steps not to allow that irrational judgement to color our perception, especially when interacting with individuals.

I share your distrust of police, and bias against them. I have had bad experiences with cops, but I cannot allow myself to have this to automatically dismiss ALL police. I have met some great men and women who do great work.

The work has to be done on both sides.

Take care I am going out to hang with one of my friend's who is a die hard republican and a good guy. I just don't agree with his viewpoints yet he is a great Dad, husband, friend, contributor to society.

[Greyhound]

75. As a group we seem to be conflating racism, prejudice, bias, discrimination.

These are not interchangeable, each has its own definition and is a different perception/reaction/trait.

Perhaps we need the definitions posted?

[seabeyond]

76. i agree. #15. and i am surprised so many are embracing these

definitions, reflected in self. i certainly do not own them, and i am honest with self

[BoneDaddy]

89. They all may have "formal" definintions

but they all spring from the same font and that is our thinking processes.

[Cleita]

78. So you will agree that when you interact with all these different

races and ethnicities in your school, you can only come to one conclusion that everyone in the world is pretty much the same. It's various cultures that make one ethnicity different from another. But when you strip that away to the core of the individual person, we are all the same.

[grizmaster]

93. funny, I've come to the complete opposite conclusion

that no two of us are the same

[Cleita]

97. Really, so some people are more equal than others in

your opinion or what are you are trying to say? Cryptic doesn't work with me. Spit it out.

[chaska]

82. Refreshing to see this level of honesty on this subject....

For no particular reason I called it 'otherism'. And we all have that in us. The best of us refuse to give in to our baser instincts when confronted with an other that for whatever reason rubs us the wrong way. But that impulse is always there. And if there's anyone who is exempt from this, I haven't met them.

[BoneDaddy]

90. Otherism

Tribalism, racism, bias, prejudice all are connected to that "other" you speak of. Totally agree.

[earth mom]

84. Excellent post-I agree with you.

I've seen it here on DU when it comes to illegal immigration. Some will point the racism finger at those of us who are against illegal immigration for the exploitation and economic aspect of it, yet those finger pointers are totally blinded by their own racism and assumptions about those they are pointing fingers at.

FYI-Wanna know who I'm biased against? Yuppies. That's right. So shoot me. B-)

[zreosumgame]

86. what you are saying is(I believe), we think in symbols

not really in words or numbers (we can train ourselves to translate those on an almost automatic basis, but it does not always work well, just look at our pResident) and in the deep background of our thought processes many assumptions are made on minimal evidence, and our reactions reflect those assumptions. From what I know, I agree with that. Now, some have pointed out that some folks take that as PERMISSION to act out on those assumptive connections. As sometimes anyway) self-aware beings we have filters we can put in place to deflect or simply not express those mal-reactions. To fail to do so can be accidental and not reflect what we want ourselves to be, but to do it deliberatly simply shows you are not fit for civilized company.

[BoneDaddy]

88. Exactly

Our assumptions that are biased or racist are typically irrational and illogical.

[grizmaster]

95. it's also what is understood rather than what is intended

Your post reminds of semiotics. One of the basic tenets of semiotics is that it doesn't matter what you intended, meaning is only in what's interpreted.

For instance here brides where white, but in China they would never do this because to them white symbolizes death. Most people are fine with that, but usually people start arguing against this idea when you explain that it's true even where you think you share the understanding of the same meaning. You can have two people pointing at the same shoe and saying "shoe" and still the meaning is not shared. The supporting arguments can get pretty complicated and semiotics has it's own lexicon to confuse matters further. But I often sum up the main implication by saying "communication is inept".

The second paragraph here seems to be saying something similar to what you were trying to say.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics

The term, then spelt semeiotics (Greek: σημειωτικός, semeiotikos, an interpreter of signs), was first used in English by Henry Stubbes (1670, p. 75) in a very precise sense to denote the branch of medical science relating to the interpretation of signs. John Locke (1690) used the term semeiotics in Book 4, Chapter 21 of An Essay Concerning Human Understanding. Here he explains how science can be divided into three parts:

All that can fall within the compass of human understanding, being either, first, the nature of things, as they are in themselves, their relations, and their manner of operation: or, secondly, that which man himself ought to do, as a rational and voluntary agent, for the attainment of any end, especially happiness: or, thirdly, the ways and means whereby the knowledge of both the one and the other of these is attained and communicated; I think science may be divided properly into these three sorts. (Locke, 1823/1963, p. 174).

[zreosumgame]

103. very close to what I was expressing

Keeping mind that this is just my opinion, this is one of the reasons why humans seem to need ritual in their lives. It looks to me that rituals are literal expressions of the way we really process information from our senses. Or perhaps rituals in some ways help us interperte meaning from multiple sources. A kind of filter if you will. As in your example above of the different meanings assigned to colors by cultures that for most of thier existence were effectivly cut off from each other except for very occasional traders and such. While one cuture expresses purity with white and the other with another color (red? That pops into my mind, I am probably wrong, so don't quote me!) for a wedding ritual.

However while the expression of the thought takes a slightly different form, the commonality of the RITUAL itself shines through to me. Different words, different dress, different religion, all coming down to the idea of 'filtering' the information to the families involved, and friends and neighbors as well as the governments that these 2 people (note I do not assign genders :toast: ) or more in some places, have decided to bond in this manner. There are many others, some public, some private that are common to all of us.

[grizmaster]

106. In my book, ritual expresses the need

to reassure we have some commonality of experience at the same time it acknowledges that the need for that reassurance means the commonality is a phantom.

You might want to read up on semiotics. It's not for most people but it sounds like you're instinctively leaning toward that camp of thought.

Umberto Eco (more famous for writing the Name of the Rose) is one of best authorities on the subject. Or even reading up on John Locke who really started the school of thought you might find interesting.

[Mythsaje]

98. I tend to prefer people who share my interests

people who might not necessarily agree with me, but those whom with I share common ground. For me this goes beyond borders of race, religion, occupation, or any of these things.

While I probably have some bias (I tend to like women better than men, and blue collar types better than "suits") this one thing is most often a deciding factor in who or who I do not tend to associate with.

Furthermore, I'm more likely to judge someone on actions and attitude than anything else. I like nice, friendly, courteous, and helpful people. Is this a bias? Perhaps.

I have a distrust of people in positions of authority over me. This is most definitely bias.

I would say that we all have some level of prejudice, though the objects of this prejudice may vary greatly from person to person.

[mattfromnossa]

104. So true.

I agree with you here. Even our good liberal friends here on DU have their prejudices...myself included.