Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

About that so-called "horrible" Kerry campaign

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:24 PM
Original message
About that so-called "horrible" Kerry campaign
No single measure captures the extent of a presidential victory. The sheer number of voters that Bush inspired to turn out demonstrated impressive strength. But on several key indicators, Bush's victory ranks among the narrowest ever for a reelected president.

Measured as a share of the popular vote, Bush beat Kerry by just 2.9 percentage points: 51% to 48.1%. That's the smallest margin of victory for a reelected president since 1828.

The only previous incumbent who won a second term nearly so narrowly was Democrat Woodrow Wilson: In 1916, he beat Republican Charles E. Hughes by 3.1 percentage points. Apart from Truman in 1948 (whose winning margin was 4.5 percentage points), every other president elected to a second term since 1832 has at least doubled the margin that Bush had over Kerry.

In that 1916 election, Wilson won only 277 out of 531 electoral college votes. That makes Wilson the only reelected president in the past century who won with fewer electoral college votes than Bush's 286.

Measured another way, Bush won 53% of the 538 electoral college votes available this year. Of all the chief executives reelected since the 12th Amendment separated the vote for president and vice president -- a group that stretches back to Thomas Jefferson in 1804 -- only Wilson (at 52%) won a smaller share of the available electoral college votes. In the end, for all his gains, Bush carried just two states that he lost last time.

http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/8618.html


Kerry TV ads outpace Bush's

By Mark Memmott, USA TODAY

Sen. John Kerry's campaign and groups opposed to President Bush have run almost twice as many TV ads in closely contested states as the Bush-Cheney campaign. That is the opposite of what many political experts predicted before March, when Kerry emerged as the likely Democratic candidate for president.

The gap could grow by the July 26 start of the Democratic National Convention. This month, the Kerry campaign plans to spend $18 million on TV ads, outpacing the Bush campaign by about $10 million. Kerry's ads include the first one spotlighting his running mate, Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C. (Graphic: Ad spending)

"It was supposed to be 'poor John Kerry,' or 'poor Democrats, they'll be overwhelmed by a Bush money machine' " that would saturate 16 to 20 competitive states with TV ads, says Larry Sabato, director of the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia.

USA TODAY obtained data collected by TNS Media Intelligence/Campaign Media Analysis Group, which tracks political ads. The data, covering 17 closely contested states from March 3 through June 26, show:

• The Kerry campaign's ads were shown 72,908 times, 3.1% more than the Bush-Cheney campaign's 70,688 showings.

• Political groups' ads were shown 56,627 times. All but 513 were ads by liberal, anti-Bush groups such as MoveOn PAC and The Media Fund. The others were by conservative groups.

Taken together, about 129,000 Kerry or anti-Bush ads were aired, 82% more than the Bush-Cheney total.

The 17 states used were Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin.

more...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-07-11-kerry-ads_x.htm








A record 59 million votes is not horrible!



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. he lost
and he let his opponents smear him without answering. It was a poor campaign no matter how you spin it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Only two words you need n/t
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 03:26 PM by jgraz
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. He did answer - media wouldn't air his counterattacks on swifts.
And if people were paying attention they would have known it then and now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. he chose not to answer until it was too late
this was on the advice of Bob Shrum. Its well documented.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. here's documented...and I think you forget about the outing of NJ governor that
occurred during that crucial time period - maybe THAT is why the media thought they could bury the counterattacks from Kerry.




April 14, 2004 - The website for SBVT was registered under the name of Lewis Waterman, the information technology manager for Gannon International, a St. Louis company that has diversified interests, including in Vietnam. (1) (note - Gannon International does not appear to have any relationship to Jeff Gannon/Guckert, the fake reporter.)

May 3, 2004 - "Kerry campaign announced a major advertising push to introduce 'John Kerry's lifetime of service and strength to the American people.' Kerry's four month Vietnam experience figures prominently in the ads." (2)

May 4, 2004 - The Swift Liars, beginning their lies by calling themselves "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth", went public at a news conference organized by Merrie Spaeth at the National Press Club. (1)

May 4, 2004 - "The Kerry campaign held a press conference directly after the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" event...The campaign provided an information package which raised significant questions about 'Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.' " (3)


May 4, 2004 - Aug. 5, 2004 - No public activity by Swift Liars (?) Wikipedia entry (7) notes "When the press conference garnered little attention, the organization decided to produce television advertisements." (Ed. note - were there any public info or announcements, other than talk on blogs? Was there anything going on publicly? Did the campaign have reason to foresee what was coming - note that they must have, see the reactions to each ad).

Jul. 26, 2004 - Jul. 29, 2004 - Democratic National Convention held in Boston. John Kerry's military experience is highlighted.

Aug. 5, 2004 - The Swift Liars' first television ad began airing a one-minute television spot in three states. (7)

Aug. 5, 2004 - "the General Counsels to the DNC and the Kerry-Edwards 2004 campaign faxed a letter to station managers at the relevant stations stating that the ad is 'an inflammatory, outrageous lie" and requesting that they "act immediately to prevent broadcast of this advertisement and deny any future sale of time. " ' " (4)

Aug. 10, 2004 - Democracy 21, The Campaign Legal Center and The Center for Responsive Politics filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission (FEC) charging that the Swift Liars were illegally raising and spending soft money on ads to influence the 2004 presidential elections. (4)

Aug. 17, 2004 - the campaign held a press conference at which Gen. Wesley Clark (ret.), Adm. Stansfield Turner (ret.), and several swift boat veterans rebutted the charges. (4)

Aug. 19, 2004 - the Kerry-Edwards campaign announced its own ad "Rassmann." (4)

Aug. 20, 2004 - The Swift Liars' second television ad began airing. This ad selectively excerpted Kerry's statements to the SFRC on 4/22/1971. (7)

Aug. 22, 2004 - the Kerry-Edwards campaign announced another ad "Issues" which addressed the Swift Boat group's attacks.

Aug. 25, 2004 - The Kerry-Edwards campaign ... dispatched former Sen. Max Cleland and Jim Rassmann, to Bush's ranch in Crawford, Texas to deliver to the President a letter signed by Democratic Senators who are veterans. (The letter was not accepted.) (4)

Aug. 26, 2004 - The Swift Liars' third television ad began airing. This ad attacked Kerry's claim to have been in Cambodia in 1968. (7)

August 26, 2004 - Mary Beth Cahill sends letter to Ken Mehlman detailing the "Web of Connections" between the Swift Liars and the Bush Administration, and demanding that Bush denounce the smear campaign. (5)

August 26, 2004 - Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) submits FOIA request "with the White House asking it to detail its contacts with individuals connected to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (SBVT)." (6)

Aug. 27, 2004 - The DNC ran a full page ad in the Aug. 27, 2004 New York Times terming the Swift Boat campaign a smear. (4)

Aug. 31, 2004 - - The Swift Liars' fourth television ad began airing. This ad attacked Kerry's participation in the medal-throwing protest on 4/23/1971. (7)

References:
* (1) SourceWatch article on SBVT

* (2) (2004) Democracy in Action / Eric M. Appleman, Democracy in Action / Eric M. Appleman

* (3) (2004) Democracy in Action / Eric M. Appleman, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth: Kerry Campaign Response

* (4) (Sept. 8, 2004) Eric M. Appleman (apparently) Some Responses to the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" Ad

* (5) August 26, 2004 letter from Mary Beth Cahill to Ken Mehlman

* (6) Press Release (US Newswire): CREW FOIAs White House Contacts with Swift Boat Veterans Group

* (7) Wikipedia entry, Swift Vets and POWs for Truth



MH1 - This topic is to create a timeline of the response of the K/E04 campaign to the Swift Liars' smears. There is an RW-encouraged myth that K/E04 "didn't respond." As the timeline, once completed, will show, that is not true. Effectiveness of the response may be debated - that is subjective - the purpose of this thread is to collect the facts of the events.




On Aug. 19, 2004 Kerry himself responded directly in a speech to the International Association of Firefighters' Convention in Boston. (from prepared remarks)
...And more than thirty years ago, I learned an important lesson—when you're under attack, the best thing to do is turn your boat into the attacker. That's what I intend to do today.

Over the last week or so, a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has been attacking me. Of course, this group isn’t interested in the truth – and they're not telling the truth. They didn't even exist until I won the nomination for president.

But here's what you really need to know about them. They're funded by hundreds of thousands of dollars from a Republican contributor out of Texas. They're a front for the Bush campaign. And the fact that the President won't denounce what they’re up to tells you everything you need to know—he wants them to do his dirty work.

Thirty years ago, official Navy reports documented my service in Vietnam and awarded me the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts. Thirty years ago, this was the plain truth. It still is. And I still carry the shrapnel in my leg from a wound in Vietnam.

As firefighters you risk your lives everyday. You know what it’s like to see the truth in the moment. You're proud of what you’ve done—and so am I.

Of course, the President keeps telling people he would never question my service to our country. Instead, he watches as a Republican-funded attack group does just that. Well, if he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer: "Bring it on."

I'm not going to let anyone question my commitment to defending America—then, now, or ever. And I'm not going to let anyone attack the sacrifice and courage of the men who saw battle with me.

And let me make this commitment today: their lies about my record will not stop me from fighting for jobs, health care, and our security – the issues that really matter to the American people...



Kerry defends war record
Aug. 19: John Kerry responds directly to attacks on his Vietnam military service Thursday, accusing President Bush of relying on front groups to challenge his war record.

http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=40a0d9b1-0386-41ef-bc...



May 4, 2004. The Kerry campaign held a press conference directly after the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" event. (Above are, r-l, Wade Sanders, Del Sandusky and Drew Whitlow). Senior Advisor Michael Meehan said, "The Nixon White House attempted to do this to Kerry, and the Bush folks are following the same plan." "We're not going to let them make false claims about Kerry and go unanswered," Meehan said. He said his first instinct was to hold a press conference with an empty room where veterans could testify to their time spent in the military with George W. Bush and Dick Cheney.

The campaign provided an information package which raised significant questions about "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth." Spaeth Communications, which hosted the event, "is a Republican headed firm from Texas which has contributed to Bush's campaign and has very close ties to the Bush Administration." Lead organizer John O'Neill, a Republican from Texas, "was a pawn of the Nixon White House in 1971." Further some of the people now speaking against Kerry had praised him in their evaluation reports in Vietnam.

John Dibble, who served on a swift boat in 1970, after Kerry had left, was one of the veterans at the Kerry event. He said of Kerry's anti-war activities that at the time, "I didn't like what he was doing." In retrospect, however, Dibble said, "I probably should have been doing the same thing...probably more of us should have been doing that." He said that might have meant fewer names on the Vietnam Memorial and that Kerry's anti-war activities were "a very gutsy thing to do."

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/interestg/swift050404c....



Kerry campaign's quick response to Swift boat vets
By Marie Horrigan
UPI Deputy Americas Editor
Washington, DC, Aug. 5 (UPI) -- The campaign for Democratic Party presidential nominee Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts issued an exhaustively researched and extensively sourced 36-page refutation Thursday of allegations Kerry lied about events during his service in Vietnam, including how and why he received medals, and had fled the scene of a battle.

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040805-012143...



Kerry: Bush lets attack ads do 'dirty work'
McClellan points out criticism by anti-Bush group
Friday, August 20, 2004 Posted: 2:37 PM EDT (1837 GMT)
BOSTON, Massachusetts (CNN) -- Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry accused President Bush on Thursday of letting front groups "do his dirty work" in questioning his military service during the Vietnam War.

"The president keeps telling people he would never question my service to our country. Instead, he watches as a Republican-funded attack group does just that," Kerry told a firefighters' union conference in his hometown of Boston.

"Well, if he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer: Bring it on."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/19/kerry.attacka... /


http://www.johnkerry.com/petition/oldtricks.php




August 5, 2004

VIA FACSIMILE

Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth

Dear Station Manager:

We are counsel to the Democratic National Committee and John Kerry, respectively. It has been brought to our attention that a group calling itself "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" has bought time, or may seek to buy time, on your station to air an advertisement that attacks Senator Kerry. The advertisement contains statements by men who purport to have served on Senator Kerry's SWIFT Boat in Vietnam, and one statement by a man pretending to be the doctor who treated Senator Kerry for one of his injuries. In fact, not a single one of the men who pretend to have served with Senator Kerry was actually a crewmate of Senator Kerry's and the man pretending to be his doctor was not. The entire advertisement, therefore is an inflammatory, outrageous lie.

"Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" styles itself as a group of individuals who personally served with John Kerry in the United States Navy in the Vietnam War. In truth the group is a sham organization spearheaded by a Texas corporate media consultant. It has been financed largely with funds from a Houston homebuilder. See Slater, Dallas Morning News, July 23, 2004.

In this group's advertisement, twelve men appear to make statements about Senator Kerry's service in Vietnam. Not a single one of these men served on either of Senator Kerry's two SWIFT Boats (PCF 44 & PCF94).

Further, the "doctor" who appears in the ad, Louis Letson, was not a crewmate of Senator Kerry's and was not the doctor who actually signed Senator Kerry's sick call sheet. In fact, another physician actually signed Senator Kerry's sick call sheet. Letson is not listed on any document as having treated Senator Kerry after the December 2, 1968 firefight. Moreover, according to news accounts, Letson did not record his "memories" of that incident until after Senator Kerry became a candidate for President in 2003. (National Review Online, May 4, 2004).

The statements made by the phony "crewmates" and "doctor" who appear in the advertisement are also totally, demonstrably and unequivocally false, and libelous. In parrticular, the advertisement charges that Senator Kerry "lied to get his Bronze Star." Just as falsely, it states that "he lied before the Senate." These are serious allegations of actual crimes -- specifically, of lying to the United States Government in the conduct of its official business. The events for which the Senator was awarded the Bronze Star have been documented repeatedly and in detail and are set out in the official citation signed by the Secretary of the Navy and the Commander of U.S. Forces in Vietnam. And yet these reckless charges of criminal conduct are offered without support or authentication, by fake "witnesses" speaking on behalf of a phony organization.

Your station is not obligated to accept this advertisement for broadcast nor is it required to account in any way for its decision to reject such an advertisement. Columbia Broadcasting System v. Democratic National Committee, 412 U.S. 94 (1973), You Can't Afford Dodd Committee, 81 FCC2d 579 (1980). The so-called "Swift Boat Veterans" organization is not a federal candidate or candidate committee. Repeated efforts by organizations that are not candidate committees to obtain a private right of access have been consistently rejected by the FCC. See e.g., National Conservative Political Action Committee, 89 FCC2d 626 (1982).

Thus, your station my freely refuse this advertisement. Because your station has this freedom, and because it is not a "use" of your facilities by a clearly identified candidate, your station is responsible for the false and libelous charges made by this sponsor.

Moreover, as a licensee, you have an overriding duty "to protect the public from false, misleading or deceptive advertising." Licensee Responsibility With Respect to the Broadcast of False, Misleading or Deceptive Advertising, 74 F.C.D.2d 623 (1961). Your station normally must take "reasonable steps" to satisfy itself "as to the reliability and reputation of every prospective advertiser." In re Complaint by Consumers Assocation of District of Columbia, 32 F.C.C.2d 400, 405 (1971).

Under these circumstances, your station may not responsibly air this advertisement. We request that your station act immmediately to prevent broadcasts of this advertisement and deny andy future sale of time. Knowing that the advertisement is false, and possessing the legal authority to refuse to run it, your station should exercise that authority in the public interest.


Please contact us promptly at either of the phone numbers below to advise us regarding the status of this advertisement.

Sincerely yours,
Marc Elias
Perkins Coie
607 14th Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005


General Counsel
Kerry-Edwards 2004 Joseph Sandler
Sandler, Reiff & Young
50 E Street, S.E. #300
Washington, D.C. 20003


General Counsel
Democratic National Committee


http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/ads04/dem080504ltrswift...




From the transcript of the Aug. 5, 2004 White House Press Briefing with Scott McClellan:

Q Do you -- does the President repudiate this 527 ad that calls Kerry a liar on Vietnam?

MR. McCLELLAN: The President deplores all the unregulated soft money activity. We have been very clear in stating that, you know, we will not -- and we have not and we will not question Senator Kerry's service in Vietnam. I think that this is another example of the problem with the unregulated soft money activity that is going on. The President thought he put an end -- or the President thought he got rid of this kind of unregulated soft money when he signed the bipartisan campaign finance reforms into law. And, you know, the President has been on the receiving end of more than $62 million in negative attacks from shadowy groups.

* * *

In the days after the release of the ad a host of major newspapers published editorials condemning it including the Arizona Republic ("Campaign Non-Starter," August 6), Los Angeles Times ("It's Not All Fair Game," August 6), Plain Dealer ("Ad Says Kerry Lied; Record Says Otherwise," August 8), St. Petersburg Times ("An Ugly Attack," August 9), Las Vegas Sun ("Ad's Smear Should Be Condemned," August 9), Oregonian ("Now It Gets Nasty," August 11), and Washington Post ("Swift Boat Smears," August 12).

* * *

On Aug. 10, 2004 Democracy 21, the Campaign Legal Center and the Center for Responsive Politics filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission (FEC) charging that Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is illegally raising and spending soft money on ads to influence the 2004 presidential elections.

* * *

From the transcript of Bush's Aug. 12, 2004 appearance on CNN'S Larry King Live:


KING: In view of that, do you think that it's fair, for the record, John Kerry's service record, to be an issue at all? I know that Senator McCain...
G. BUSH: You know, I think it is an issue, because he views it as honorable service, and so do I. I mean...
KING: Oh, so it is. But, I mean, Senator McCain has asked to be condemned, the attack on his service. What do you say to that?
G. BUSH: Well, I say they ought to get rid of all those 527s, independent expenditures that have flooded the airwaves.
There have been millions of dollars spent up until this point in time. I signed a law that I thought would get rid of
those, and I called on the senator to -- let's just get anybody who feels like they got to run to not do so.
KING: Do you condemn the statements made about his...
G. BUSH: Well, I haven't seen the ad, but what I do condemn is these unregulated, soft-money expenditures by very wealthy people, and they've said some bad things about me. I guess they're saying bad things about him. And what I think we ought to do is not have them on the air. I think there ought to be full disclosure. The campaign funding law I signed I thought was going to get rid of that. But evidently the Federal Election Commission had a different view...

Kerry spokesman Chad Clanton's response to Bush's Aug. 12, 2004 appearance:
"Tonight President Bush called Kerry's service in Vietnam 'noble.' But in the same breath refused to heed Senator McCain's call to condemn the dirty work being done by the 'Swift Boat Vets for Bush.' Once again, the President side-stepped responsibility and refused to do the right thing. His credibility is running out as fast as his time in the White House."

* * *

On Aug. 17, 2004 the campaign held a press conference at which Gen. Wesley Clark (ret.), Adm. Stansfield Turner (ret.), and several swift boat veterans rebutted the charges.

* * *

DNC Chairman Terry McAuliffe issued a statement on Aug. 18, 2004:

"By saying nothing at all George W. Bush is a complicit contributor to the slanderous, lie-filled attack ads that have been launched on John Kerry on Bush's behalf. Instead of stepping up and taking the high road, George Bush's response has been evasion, avoidance, everything but disavowal.

"Larry King asked George Bush to 'condemn' it. He refused. Reporters asked the President's Press Secretary if he'd 'repudiate' it. He ducked. They can try to blame it on the rules or whoever else they want, but the blame belongs squarely on the Republicans. They wrote it. They produced it. They placed it. They paid for it. And now it is time for George W. Bush to stand up and say, 'enough.'

"This is not debate, Mr. President, and this unfounded attack on Senator Kerry has crossed the line of decency. I call on you today to condemn this ad, the men who put their lies behind it, and the donors who paid for it. It's time."

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/ads04/swiftadresponse.h...



Altercation Book Club: Lapdogs by Eric Boehlert
Relatively early on in the August coverage of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth story, ABC's Nightline devoted an entire episode to the allegations and reported, "The Kerry campaign calls the charges wrong, offensive and politically motivated. And points to Naval records that seemingly contradict the charges." (Emphasis added.) Seemingly? A more accurate phrasing would have been that Navy records "completely" or "thoroughly" contradicted the Swifty. In late August, CNN's scrawl across the bottom of the screen read, "Several Vietnam veterans are backing Kerry's version of events." Again, a more factual phrasing would have been "Crewmembers have always backed Kerry's version of events." But that would have meant not only having to stand up a well-funded Republican campaign attack machine, but also casting doubt on television news' hottest political story of the summer.

When the discussion did occasionally turn to the facts behind the Swift Boat allegations, reporters and pundits seemed too spooked to address the obvious—that the charges made no sense and there was little credible evidence to support them.. Substituting as host of "Meet the Press," Andrea Mitchell on Aug. 15 pressed Boston Globe reporter Anne Kornblut about the facts surrounding Kerry's combat service: "Well, Anne, you've covered him for many years, John Kerry. What is the truth of his record?" Instead of mentioning some of the glaring inconsistencies in the Swifties' allegation, such as George Elliott and Adrian Lonsdale 's embarrassing flip-flops, Kornblut ducked the question, suggesting the truth was "subjective": "The truth of his record, the criticism that's coming from the Swift Boat ads, is that he betrayed his fellow veterans. Well, that's a subjective question, that he came back from the war and then protested it. So, I mean, that is truly something that's subjective." Ten days later Kornblut scored a sit-down interview with O'Neill. In her 1,200-word story she politely declined to press O'Neill about a single factual inconsistency surrounding the Swifties' allegations, thereby keeping her Globe readers in the dark about the Swift Boat farce. (It was not until Bush was safely re-elected that that Kornblut, appearing on MSNBC, conceded the Swift Boast ads were clearly inaccurate.)

Hosting an Aug. 28 discussion on CNBC with Newsweek's Jon Meacham and Time's Jay Carney, NBC's Tim Russert finally, after weeks of overheated Swifty coverage, got around to asking the pertinent question: "Based on everything you have heard, seen, reported, in terms of the actual charges, the content of the book, is there any validity to any of it?" Carney conceded the charges did not have any validity, but did it oh, so gently: "I think it's hard to say that any one of them is by any standard that we measure these things has been substantiated." Apparently Carney forgot to pass the word along to editors at Time magazine, which is read by significantly more news consumers than Russert's weekly cable chat show on CNBC. Because it wasn't until its Sept. 20 2004 issue, well after the Swift Boat controversy had peaked, that the Time news team managed enough courage to tentatively announce the charges levied against Kerry and his combat service were "reckless and unfair." (Better late than never; Time's competitor Newsweek waited until after the election to report the Swift Boat charges were "misleading," but "very effective.") But even then, Time didn't hold the Swifties responsible for their "reckless and unfair" charges. Instead, Time celebrated them. Typing up an election postscript in November, Time toasted the Swift Boat's O'Neill as one of the campaign's "Winners," while remaining dutifully silent about the group's fraudulent charges.

That kind of Beltway media group self-censorship was evident throughout the Swift Boat story, as the perimeters of acceptable reporting were quickly established. Witness the MSM reaction to Wayne Langhofer, Jim Russell and Robert Lambert. All three men served with Kerry in Vietnam and all three men were witnesses to the disputed March 13, 1969 event in which Kerry rescued Green Beret Jim Rassmann, winning a Bronze Star and his third Purple Heart. The Swifties, after 35 years of silence, insisted Kerry did nothing special that day, and that he certainly did not come under enemy fire when he plucked Rassmann out of the drink. Therefore, Kerry did not deserve his honors.

It's true every person on Kerry's boat, along with the thankful Rassmann, insisted they were under fire, and so did the official Navy citation for Kerry's Bronze Star. Still, Swifties held to their unlikely story, and the press pretended to be confused about the stand-off. Then during the last week in August three more eyewitnesses, all backing the Navy's version of events that there had been hostile gun fire, stepped forward. They were Langhofer, Russell and Lambert.

Russell wrote an indignant letter to his local Telluride Daily Planet to dispute the Swifties' claim: "Forever pictured in my mind since that day over 30 years ago John Kerry bending over his boat picking up one of the rangers that we were ferrying from out of the water. All the time we were taking small arms fire from the beach; although because of our fusillade into the jungle, I don't think it was very accurate, thank God. Anyone who doesn't think that we were being fired upon must have been on a different river."

The number of times Russell was subsequently mentioned on CNN: 1. On Fox News: 1. MSNBC: 0. ABC: 1. On CBS: 0. On NBC: 0.

Like Russell, Langhofer also remembered strong enemy gunfire that day. An Aug. 22 article in the Washington Post laid out the details: "Until now, eyewitness evidence supporting Kerry's version had come only from his own crewmen. But yesterday, The Post independently contacted a participant who has not spoken out so far in favor of either camp who remembers coming under enemy fire. “There was a lot of firing going on, and it came from both sides of the river,” said Wayne D. Langhofer, who manned a machine gun aboard PCF-43, the boat that was directly behind Kerry’s. Langhofer said he distinctly remembered the “clack, clack, clack” of enemy AK-47s, as well as muzzle flashes from the riverbanks." (For some strange reason the Post buried its Langhofer scoop in the 50th paragraph of the story.)

The number of times Langhofer was subsequently mentioned on CNN: 0. On Fox News: 0. On MSNBC: 0. On ABC: 0. CBS: 0. NBC: 0.

As for Lambert, The Nation magazine uncovered the official citation for the Bronze Medal he won that same day and it too reported the flotilla of five U.S. boats "came under small-arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks."

The number of times Lambert was mentioned on. On Fox News: 1. On CNN: 0. On MSNBC: 0. ABC: 1 On CBS: 0. On NBC: 0.

Additionally, the Washington Post's Michael Dobbs, who served as the paper's point person on the Swifty scandal, was asked during an Aug. 30, 2004, online chat with readers why the paper hadn't reported more aggressively on the public statements of Langhofer, Russell and Lambert. Dobbs insisted, "I hope to return to this subject at some point to update readers." But he never did. Post readers, who were deluged with Swifty reporting, received just the sketchiest of facts about Langhofer, Russell and Lambert.

If that doesn't represent a concerted effort by the press to look the other way, than what does?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12799378/#060518



Please use this information as a guideline for 2006 and 2008 campaigns. What the media edits out of our campaigns is CRUCIAL to public perception.

Even many Democrats are unaware of the real fight that occurred in 2004 and are buying wholesale the corporate media spin which conveniently protects the corporate media who failed to give honest coverage of Kerry's defense against the lies of the swift vets and their Republican handlers.

Not recognizing the extent of the corporate media's duplicity is a danger for all Democratic candidates in 2006 and 2008.

This can and WILL happen to any Democratic candidate.

This CAN and WILL happen to ANY Democratic candidate. FIGHT THE MYTHS. Stay tough KNOWING the media is aligned with these liars.

The battle with the people really behind this group will never end. But there are veterans coming forth with a book of their own that will unmask the swifts for the lying GOP operatives they are. We need to support those vets when their book comes out. Truth matters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. faxing letters
does not equal a media campaign to dispute the charges. They let the accusation go unanswered in the media. Kerry wanted to respond. Shrum advised that it would give too much play to the charges. This was the fatal mistake of the campaign. It was Dukakis all over again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. It wasn't faxing letters!
Cleland even camped out at Bush's ranch and got some media attention:



May 4, 2004. The Kerry campaign held a press conference directly after the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" event. (Above are, r-l, Wade Sanders, Del Sandusky and Drew Whitlow). Senior Advisor Michael Meehan said, "The Nixon White House attempted to do this to Kerry, and the Bush folks are following the same plan." "We're not going to let them make false claims about Kerry and go unanswered," Meehan said. He said his first instinct was to hold a press conference with an empty room where veterans could testify to their time spent in the military with George W. Bush and Dick Cheney.

The campaign provided an information package which raised significant questions about "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth." Spaeth Communications, which hosted the event, "is a Republican headed firm from Texas which has contributed to Bush's campaign and has very close ties to the Bush Administration." Lead organizer John O'Neill, a Republican from Texas, "was a pawn of the Nixon White House in 1971." Further some of the people now speaking against Kerry had praised him in their evaluation reports in Vietnam.

John Dibble, who served on a swift boat in 1970, after Kerry had left, was one of the veterans at the Kerry event. He said of Kerry's anti-war activities that at the time, "I didn't like what he was doing." In retrospect, however, Dibble said, "I probably should have been doing the same thing...probably more of us should have been doing that." He said that might have meant fewer names on the Vietnam Memorial and that Kerry's anti-war activities were "a very gutsy thing to do."


May 4, 2004 - Aug. 5, 2004 - No public activity by Swift Liars (?) Wikipedia entry (7) notes "When the press conference garnered little attention, the organization decided to produce television advertisements." (Ed. note - were there any public info or announcements, other than talk on blogs? Was there anything going on publicly? Did the campaign have reason to foresee what was coming - note that they must have, see the reactions to each ad).


Kerry Campaign responses: August 5-August 19


Aug. 19: John Kerry responds directly to attacks on his Vietnam military service Thursday, accusing President Bush of relying on front groups to challenge his war record.

http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=40a0d9b1-0386-41ef-bc0e-904bcc95946c&.


Text:

Of course, the President keeps telling people he would never question my service to our country. Instead, he watches as a Republican-funded attack group does just that. Well, if he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer: "Bring it on."

I'm not going to let anyone question my commitment to defending America—then, now, or ever. And I'm not going to let anyone attack the sacrifice and courage of the men who saw battle with me.

And let me make this commitment today: their lies about my record will not stop me from fighting for jobs, health care, and our security – the issues that really matter to the American people...


Kerry Campaign responses: August 20-August 26

Bush's lawyer forced to resign:

Smeared by Ginsberg

August 27, 2004

BENJAMIN L. Ginsberg is the smoking gun. As national counsel to Bush-Cheney for five years, he has operated continuously at the center of President Bush's political organization. He was James Baker's right-hand man during the 2000 Florida recount challenge.

Snip...

Here we have a group of bitter veterans who detest Kerry's leadership in opposing the war 30 years ago and are willing to say almost anything -- frequently contradicting their own earlier statements -- to hurt Kerry's candidacy. They turn to Bush's top political lawyer for advice on campaign finance laws and then to one of Bush's top campaign contributors to fund their attack ads.

No memo trail needs to be found linking Bush personally to Ginsberg and the veterans' group; the connection is apparent.

For far too long this attack has worked to Bush's advantage. Even when Kerry and other veterans were defending his war service effectively…

Ginsberg resigned his Bush campaign position with unintended comedy, saying he was saddened that his role had "become a distraction from the critical issues at hand in this election." Was he suggesting this bogus smear is a critical issue?

...The members of the Federal Election Commission, appointed by Bush and Bill Clinton, have betrayed their office by not reining in groups that are too closely aligned with both campaigns.

But that is not the issue with the anti-Kerry veterans. The issue is Bush -- his refusal to condemn a patently false attack, his willingness to try to reap some political reward on the cheap, his utter lack of leadership in brushing off the role played by his close political aides.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2004/08/27/smeared_by_ginsberg



More in Research Forum




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. no paid media
he shouldn't have a hard hitting television commercial on the air the day the swift boat ad hit and hit back hard. That's what Clinton did with every attack in 92. They emulated Dukakis instead of Clinton. What a disaster.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Are you actually reading the information? There was paid media! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:49 PM
Original message
paid media
is tv commercials. Press conferences are earned media.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:08 PM
Original message
There were TV commercials! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. Kerry scheduled a speech at the Firefighters where he ATTACKED swifts and Bush for an hour
on Aug 19, 2004 - NO MEDIA AIRED IT, and few even REPORTED it.

You didn't read the research and CHOOSE to spin.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. no paid media
again. In politics, you answer the charge where it was aired. There should have been a tv ad released immediately hitting back hard. The media would have played those clips over and over again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. Read the research - there WERE ads aired - and Cleland even went to Crawford and
media made it seem absurd instead of serious - just as they made CLINTON into a joke every time he defended himself as PRESIDENT and with the bully pulpit.

You don't factor in the corpmedia's use of Gov. McGreavy's outing at the time, either, making that the big political story then.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. there was no paid media until way past a week of the ads hitting
therefore it was too late. Whenever Clinton was attacked, he responded immediately and brought the main campaign message back to the forefront.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #53
81. In 1992 media climate - 2004 corpmedia is almost all RW and the left machine
was just beginning to surface that year after over a decade of RW dominance of most broadcast media.

Anyone who think sthe two are the same has never read MediaMatters or FAIR reports.

And FURTHER - In 92 Clinton faced a President Bush who had a congress who was pummelling him throughout his term, especially due to investigations by Kerry. Kerry faced a President Bush who was being protected by congress and was being PUBLICLY supported by President Clinton on most of his decisions.

And Kerry STILL brought in 60-65 million votes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #81
101. the country is divided to the point right now
that no matter the campaign, 47 percent is probably the low point for either party in a presidential race. If you think the media is not getting out your side, you go around them. How. By tv commercials, field and direct mail. The Kerry campaign relied on the same cadre of tired consultants that had lost 8 presidential campaigns.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #101
130. The DNC had the same tired spokespeople only schooled in defending Clinton for 12yrrs
and THEY were the same pundits that represented Dems as the chosen spokespeople for YEARS. Kerry couldn't change the television culture or the DNC in 5 months AND run a presidential campaign.

Bush didn't. RNC had their machine in place and they had a RW media machine along with it. Dems had..................??????? Air America?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. Clinton
was smart enough not to have Bob Shrum work on his campaign. Shrum is now an 8 time loser. He was the main strategist on the campaign. He is not good at this in presidential campaigns. This did not change on the Kerry campaign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #131
135. If the DNC had not hung on to Clinton-era targetted state strategy, the election process
would have been secured and votes counted instead of suppressed, purged voter rolls tactics would have been countered. And the left message machine would have been in operation to counter the RW message machine.

It can't all be done in 5 months. WHO had the DNC running for four years to match the RNC machine's efforts during that time?

The nominee couldn't have been doing it and neither could a campaign manager - that was a four year process that the Dem PARTY failed.

Kerry won his matchups with Bush - how did DNC do in its 4yr matchup with the RNC?

How did the left message machine perform against the RW message machine?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #135
136. sorry
I don't buy it. Shrum lost the messaging battle in yet another presidential campaign. The Republicans were allowed to set the terms of the debate, so they won. Shrum keeps losing. I don't get why people keep hiring him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #136
137. Shrum had NO MACHINE to tap into the way RW message machine performed. How
do you think Clinton got IMPEACHED or that for a year many people believed Clintons trashed the White House - because MEDIA machine is RW and there was no left message machine in place.

Did Clinton lose that messaging battle? Even with all his power and bully pulpit? Yes - because there was no left machine in place to COUNTER The RW message machine. NONE.

I don't BUY fairy tales - and that's what YOU are selling if you think that the DNC and the left media matched the RNC and the RW media machine, but only Shrum failed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #137
138. Clinton won the pr battle during impeachment
that's why the Dems gained seats in the 98 midterms and why Gingrich was forced out in that election. But nice try. Listen Kerry is a good man who was let down by the team he trusted with his campaign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #138
140. And then his numbers tanked after majority of people BELIEVED BushInc's lie that
Clintons trashed the White House. He also lost control of the pardon story. Why? Because Dem party HAS NO MESSAGE MACHINE like the RW has had in place since the early 90s.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #140
141. his numbers stayed pretty steady
Clinton had a very good message machine. When we lost, we had no levers of government so hard to get a message out. Of course, they've had talk radio. But Kerry's campaign should not be absolved of their errors. Shrum has been losing presidential campaigns for for almost 40 years under all sorts of environments. I guess all that is the media's fault.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #141
142. The DNC didn't COUNTER the RNC - why you believe that the DNc's 4yrs of groundwork
has nothing to do with the election is a mystery. Why you think it's OK that the Dem party never fostered a message machine to counter the RW is a mystery.

You think the Dems would have won both houses of Congress if they had STUCK to McAuliffe's targetted state strategy and DIDN'T rebuild the collapsed party infrastructures in the red and swing states that Dean worked on?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #142
143. no I don't
I hate McAuliffe on a much more personal level than you do. Trust me on that one. However, this was an election that very easily could have been won with a proper message and media strategy. Shrum failed as he always does.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #143
145. Shrum wasn't perfect - but the votes were lost at the state and county levels where there
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 09:56 PM by blm
was no secured process and voter rolls were purged without any countering by the DNC and where vote suppression and vote stealing was rampant.

You want to tell me that things WOULDN'T have been different in Ohio if the mundane things done to secure the election process in every county and precinct had been handled long before by an INVOLVED party machine?

The message was out there, especially during and after the debates - crowds of 60,000 -100,000 didn't just pop up because no message was getting through.

And BTW - Rove and Bush weren't perfect at all. If they were so great, they would have sold Bush's policy message instead of needing outside groups to lie about the opponent, and to suppress votes and purge voter rolls to stay in power.

The RNC was so strong it pulled Bush across the finish line. The DNC was so weak it couldn't get their winners' votes secured and counted in 2000 or 2004.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #145
148. the votes were lost at that level
because Shrum and his team made the decision to only target a small number of states and to only target the big cities in those states. And we also lost because married woman broke late for Bush because of the poor message campaign put together by Shrum and company.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #148
149. The DNC had no party infrastructure IN THOSE STATES to support the campaign!
No one can possibly be that obtuse to believe that a presidential campaign that gets into the general in late spring can POSSIBLY be expected to structure an entire network on its own from SCRATCH all over every red and swing state where the structures had been left to collapse since 1996 and in many cases didn't exist at all, because the Dem PARTY didn't do their job for the FOUR YEARS THEY WERE GIVEN TO DO SO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #149
151. this is a copout
Gore won the popular vote with that same infrastructure. All sorts of Democratic organizations had field programs in place. We lost because of the poor campaign run by the Shrum team.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #151
154. That infrastructure was further collapsed since 2000 - ask the workers in Ohio
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 10:20 PM by blm
and they will tell you that they had complained about the party structure in 2000, and in 2002 and 2004 it got even worse.

Gore had such a poor party infrastructure in Florida that they could not get his votes counted properly the first time. There were alot of tactics employed and going on even then, and DNC reacted by letting the structures in more states collapse.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #154
158. that may be the case
but turnout was not a problem in 2004. The problem was the campaign's message lost some key target groups in the campaign. I keep looking for why Shrum lost all those other campaigns if it was so clearly the DNC's fault in 04.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-24-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #158
170. Turnout wasn't the problem - securing the process and counting the votes earned WAS.
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-24-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #170
174. why did Shrum lose all those other races
I really want an answer to that since you completely excuse him in 04.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
38. You are very gullible to be taken in so badly by the MSM noise machine.
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 03:46 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
Do you really think people were stupid enough to believe chickenhawks were military heroes and decorated military heroes were chicken? There's no amount of education can remedy that lack of common sense.

Look at those photos and believe your lying eyes!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
106. But it was Kerry's choice to take or not take than advice, right?
Well documented or not, he cannot say, "Bob Shrum made me do it" can he? The buck has to stop with him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #106
144. I agree
but you usually listen to folks you pay money to for those decisions. The mistake was hiring Shrum.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:57 PM
Original message
Nope, he didn't run ads saying that Bush was a draft dodging chickenhawk
Those ads should've been on the air the day after the Swift Boat Liars came on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
110. There's a thing we call "buying media time"
In the form of "commercials". They work, FYI.

Julie
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
119. But his concession speech was a mismash of
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 06:56 PM by truedelphi
Contradictory statements.

First he starts out by saying that (previously) he had said that he wanted every vote counted.

Then he wandered off into the realm of "but an election shouold not be involved with legal maneuvers" or words to that effect.

WHY just WHY did he say that? why shouldn't an election be invovled with the judicial system especially if as we saw in the state of Ohio,
there was so much corruption.

He relied (erroneously) on there being 136,00 outstanding ballots remaining to be counted in Ohio but really there were 250,000. Hundreds if not thousands of people had donated monies to seeing that there were election lawyers on the ground in Ohio and elsewhere, and Kerry just shrugged and gave up.

For a canddiate to win, the candidate be they male or female has to project strength. He had the election stolen, and without so much as a single protest he went down. This weakness will haunt any move he makes to be President in the future.




(the Kerry Concession speech is presented in the HBO film on Hacking Democracy
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. The point of the OP was that it was a very close loss
And possibly had Dean's 50 State strategy been in place by 2004 instead of the pathetic Terry McAuliffe's, the results could very well have been different. And here's the thing -- I wasn't even part of the primary process last time around. I knew very little about Senator Kerry in early 2004. Yet by the time Election Day rolled around, I was a big supporter of his. So he must have done something right, if he gained my respect and admiration over the course of that year. And I was NOT on the blogs until October 2004.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. close doesn't count
in general elections.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. It does, however, in stealing them. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. if he ran a good campaign
he wouldn't have lost at all. I blame Shrum more than Kerry.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
41. I am certain that Dean's DNC would have had vote results that MATCHED exit polls
alot closer than McAuliffe's DNC did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. he lost
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. It was stolen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
98. Wouldn't have been if Kerry had been 5-10 points ahead of Bush
Which would've been possible if he had run an ad calling Bush a draft dodging chickenhawk the day after the Swift Boat liars came on instead of relying on the media to carry his response message.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
74. the OP makes it sound like all incumbent Presidents have been re-elected
but Bush-41 got beat, Taft got beat, Carter got trounced, and Hoover got buried. Considering that he was running against the WORST PRESIDENT EVER! the fact that Kerry did worse than Clinton, Reagan, and FDR is the sticking point.

Apart from the swift-boating, what I remember most is
"If I knew then what I know now (about Saddam's WMD) I would still have voted to authorize the war."

Distorted attacks on Kerry and Edward's Senate records. In the VP debate, for example (the only one I watched) Edwards said "the American people saw in the debate what kind of man John Kerry is" and Cheney said "One good debate performance does not erase 18 years of Senate votes", Instead of defending their record, and pointing out that attacks on their records were based on distortions, Edwards just repeated "the American people saw in the debate what kind of man John Kerry is". :banghead: I had to turn it off, because it looked to me like Edwards was getting beat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
111. Narrowest margin ever: To a chimp
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 05:48 PM by JNelson6563
Anything short of a landslide, considering the Bush hatred goin' on, clearly demonstrates a crappy campaign so the whole "narrow margin" defense used by Kerry-ites only strengthens the point by those of us who feel the campaign sucked.

I feel sorry for those who cannot bring themselves to see that this poll driven, consultant driven campaign sucked big time. When you cannot see your mistakes you are bound to repeat them.

Julie
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. Where were you at? He did answer back.
Frankly, I am tired of this mistaken statment. Kerry's campaign, Cleland and others responded back almost immediately. They responded to the attacks. I can locate a time line to prove my point, can you prove yours or is your comments just based on false notions and lose talk?
Oh, and you can play a good game and lose, bad calls, bad luck bad weather. A loss doesn't equal bad.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Shrum
advised Kerry not to respond via paid media and he didn't. Kerry wanted to respond in a much harsher mode. It was all discussed in that Washington Monthly article which went into why campaigns still used Shrum despite him never winning a presidential campaign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. Kerry hasn't learned a thing..
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 03:49 PM by Tellurian
wondering what the Kerryites are going to do after their iconic hero
loses the nomination. Once more making a bigger fool out of himself
for yet another failed attempt.

My prediction: "You won't see these people for dust supporting the Democratic Nominee."
They will be too busy licking their wounds blaming everyone else for Kerry's failures.

Suggest some reading material:

The Art Of War, by Sun Tzu

...as suggested by boolean in his thresd
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #29
55. Have other candidates learned something that Kerry hasn't?
If so, name them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #55
124. Oh. I guess, you haven't been paying attention..
1.) Howard Dean

2.) Albert Gore

3.) Hillary Clinton

4.) Nancy Pelosi

I'll preempt your next question with the answer, now-

They've had good advisers and whats more, they've listened to them and it shows!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #124
161. Have they spoken about election fraud or election reform
Edited on Thu Nov-23-06 12:38 AM by politicasista
It's funny that you choose to promote them while bashing a leading Dem that is doing good things. That makes them all look bad.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
64. So says the repeated inside Washington Bullsh*t, that for some reason
some people like to repeat.


Well, please come back and repeat yourself, when Kerry wins in 08. Who will be the fool then?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
93. *
* agreed *

Real wisdom is knowing one's limitations and accepting them gracefully.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. You agree with anyone
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 05:36 PM by politicasista
that attacks Kerry. Very sad that a person that does good gets hated on here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #95
99. *
And you automatically assume that everyone that does not support a 2008 run hates him. Very sad indeed. The world simply isn't that black and white nor do most people engage in such linear thinking.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #99
107. No, I don't assume that
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 05:17 PM by politicasista
It's people that attack his integrity and say "don't run in 2008" when he hasn't even announced he is running yet. I am saying you seem to always agree with the attacks on Kerry when they have been proven false every single time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. *
Actually if you read the post to which I responded, she was predicting how the Kerry supporters will take him not being a viable contender. The real problem is the black and white way you and yours view all having to do with Kerry here at DU, i.e., we are either with you (him) or against you (him), my point being that most people do not view anything in life that narrowly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #108
112. I try not to get involved in these Kerry threads,
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 06:01 PM by seasonedblue
but personal attacks do not constitute honest debate. Unfortunately AK, you seem to be at the top of the hit list & it's just uncalled for.:thumbsup:

edited to note that the post to which I was referring has itself been edited.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. thank you, mam
Jeez, if the Hillary supporters reacted as violently to criticism of her here, these board would really light up, and not in a good way.

We are entitled to our own POV without having to step through mine fields. Groupthink may be the easy way in going along to get along, but it's not honest discussion. If we all thought alike, we'd be Republicans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #112
127. Why do you persist in attacking AK?
Strange that.. AK voices an opinion and you accuse her of attack posts.

I don't see where there is an attack. Please point it out to me in case I missed something.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #127
132. I was defending AK
I was talking about the poster who personally attacked her......oh God, I'm so sorry that I was unclear.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #132
133. Ah, hats off to you then, seasonedblue..
and a Happy ThanksGiving to you and your family!

These persistent Kerry threads are a boor!

The same repetitive nonsense over and over again.

Until blm starts posting Robert Parry's disjointed stuff..
always accompanied by his website and a how to order his books.

Does Parry give you a commission for each book order, blm?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #133
134. ROFLMAO
You know you're going to pay for that last one.

Happy Thanksgiving to you & yours too.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #133
146. And yet they attract you and your "repetitive nonsense." n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #146
160. Oh, oh, you went off script.. ProSense
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 11:02 PM by Tellurian
they may give you a new handle for that one- "NonSense"! :)

anyway- I'm wishing you and yours a Happy ThanksGiving, as well..

:toast:

Tellurian
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #127
167. It's prejudice plain and simple.
Anti-animation prejudice. And speaking of which...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
52. In Ohio thanks to Blackwell
Got anything else to add?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #52
121. he lost the popular vote
regardless. Ohio wouldn't have been close if he/Shrum ran a good campaign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
garthranzz Donating Member (983 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
89. No, Bush/Cheney/Rove stole it.
Let's not help the liars and thieves rewrite history.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #89
122. why didn't they steal this one
this is a canard and gets rather old.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
90. True, he lost. And there were good moments and bad ones
Gore had them too.

But "horrible" would better describe a campaign like Dukakis, or McGovern's.

It wasn't the greatest campaign in the world, and it wasn't the worst. We can't spin it as wondrous, but then also others shouldn't spin it as the worst campaign ever seen either.

And it sure did pick up steam toward the end there.

Actually, I think Kerry would blame it more on the bin Laden tape just before the election, and I would blame it more on Bush playing the 9/11 card.

Meanwhile, only just recently have the sheeple started waking up.

I'll tell you one thing though. I never want to see either Cahill or Shrum anywhere near our campaigns ever, ever again. Or Carville either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #90
123. okay
poor instead of horrible. I agree about Shrum and that's been my major point. At least Carville actually wins campaigns.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #123
125. 10 years ago he won one. But I bring up Carville because I didn't appreciate him
telling his Republican friends what was going on in the Kerry camp on November 4, 2004.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #125
129. that's fine
he'd rather make money corporately now anyhow. Begala is a different matter and a much better person anyhow. Many people think Paul was the real brains behind that operation anyhow.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
155. Kerry won by a considerable margin, about 3% probably.
Of course, the voting machines had him losing.

But everything else had him winning: the exit polls, common sense, the nunber of new party registrations, every demographic, the number of newspapers supporting him, you name it.

It just comes down to a simple question: do you trust a count conducted in total secrecy without verification (so that anybody maliciously programming the vote or hacking it at any of any number of points in the process could do so without the slightest chance of being detected) by far-right private companies? Or do you trust common sense and almost every conceivable statistic and indicator?

I personally think that only conspiracy nuts believe that Bush won.

Kerry ran a fine campaign. He made a serious mistake in conceding without a fight. He might have uncovered some of the ways the machines erred, especially in OH where there were a large number of very able people monitoring all the irregularities. He might not have achieved what he wanted to achieve, but he won the election hands down.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. Winning all three debates decisively is not horrible - and if the campaign was
HALF as lousy as so many claim, then BushInc wouldn't have had to employ surrogate groups to lie about Kerry, work overtime to suppress votes, purge voter rolls, and rig machine counts all over the country to stay in power.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. he lost
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. The weakass DNC let the strongarm RNC steal it. Kerry beat Bush in every matchup.
DNC let RNC steal it for Bush.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. they did the same things they all always do
but Kerry lost by not responding to the attacks his character and by saying he voted for it before he voted against it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
32. Kerry said what EVERY LAWMAKER does - they vote for then against EVERY bill
depending on which VERSION of the bill is being voted on.

Media CHOSE to make it sound absurd just as they made counting paper ballots seem absurd in 2000.

The DNC did what they always did with their TARGETTED state strategy in 2000, 2002, and 2004. They let party infrastructures in many states COLLAPSE. And THAT is where the election process is supposed to be SECURED and where the votes get counted.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #32
47. it sounded stupid
he should have just said his vote was a mistake and I won't make that mistake again. He sounded like a wonk instead of a President. It was hideous no matter how correct you are about how the Senate works. Most Americans don't know and don't care how the Senate works.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. So you advocate treating people as STUPID as Rove does - postKatrina people aren't buying
stupid anymore.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. I advocate
candidates talking like normal people, not in parlimentary procedure.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
62. Seemed like he had an abundance...
of ammunition, give Shrub's record, but didn't really attack him as aggressively as he might. I found myself always wanting Kerry to go further. Then, alas, many people out there--who don't even follow politics and have almost no clue what's important when it comes to picking a President, make their choices just based on appearances (remember all those people who picked their President based on who they'd "want to have a beer with"?). Then too, Kerry was smeared and made to look untrustworthy (swift-boats, flip-flopper, etc); a Republican ploy that worked on a considerable number of clueless voters.

I don't know how Kerry could have responded more effectively, especially given the M$M/corporate media bias against him/Democrats and liberals in general. No doubt that also played into muting his ability to use Shrub's record against him as well as perhaps failing to cover any more aggressive attacks; it's so easy to overlook this obstacle, particularly so long after the fact, but it was a real handicap.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #62
77. Bush never did his own attacking - the RNC handled it almost exclusively.
And so did their RW message machine - and THAT is where the left is outgunned.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. he lost
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. You've made your point. Explain how any of these other candidates
will do better. THEY'RE the ones hiring those consultants now, while Kerry knows what a mistake that is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. Not my problem
Go with the unknown, or the proven failure? I know who I'm picking.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. simple
don't vote for any candidate in the primary who hires Bob Shrum. That is a recipe for disaster in the general election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. It was stolen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
40. And he *knew* that, yet still conceded. With $3,000,000 left in his warchest
Some of which was MINE.

Any candidate who gives up the fight in order to preserve "viability" has forfeited his right to ask for my vote. Ever. Again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. Okay, which is it he lost or it was stolen, or
you just want to be in opposition of anything?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. OK...one more time -- the point is RESULTS
I said up front that I am completely convinced that the election was stolen. The fact it was close enough to steal is enough of an indication that he ran a poor campaign. Once again: Bush had less than 50% approval going into the election. Look up how previous incumbent have done in that situation.

Once it was clear the fix was in (and Kerry admitted this on the record before he conceded), Kerry caved. He gave up in order to preserve his chances for '08. Again, he said this on the record.

Good man or not, that's not the kind of leadership I look for in a president. He doesn't deserve a second shot at the White House.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #56
166. Senator Kerry did the right thing by conceding.
There was no way the results were going to be altered by whatever it is you think Kerry should have done. By giving a quick concession, as opposed to a long drawn-out process, Kerry preserved a little HONOR FOR DEMOCRATS. If he had waited even a few days, while it would have made people like you and some others here happy, it would have hurt Democrats across the nation.

We now have a Democrat-controlled Congress. Nobody worked harder or raised more money for Democrats than John Kerry. That was his goal from the moment he realized what had happened in Ohio. He conceded because he wanted Democrats to succeed. It wasn't about 2008: it was about 2006. Kerry could have put up a stink but it wouldn't have achieved anything other than giving the RW and the media cannon fodder to use against Democrats.

And not all Democrats would have supported Kerry if he refused to concede. Most of the party would have called on him to do the "right thing." This would have been played up to make the party look divided and contentious. The RW would have also used the issue to brand Democrats as unpatriotic for fighting over "politics" during a time of war. Kerry and the Democrats who supported him might have even been blamed for failures Shrub was having in Iraq. The pundits would have been discussing whether or not the political in-fighting in Washington was hampering America's ability to conduct the war and the business of running our government. Believe it. It would have been ugly.

Kerry's timely concession allowed Democrats to retain dignity when it was desperately needed. We were in a downward spiral at the mercy of a Republican Congress. I'm not saying that we took back Congress because of Kerry's concession. (I'm putting in this disclaimer for the simplistically-minded who might be perusing this thread.) I'm saying that a stink over the election in 2004 would have been spun to hurt all Democrats, and that would have made things more difficult for Democrats in 2006. One thing the Repugs are good at is casting blame on all Democrats for something one Democrat says or does, while framing it in the worst possible terms.

Leadership isn't about looking and acting tough. We've had six years of that kind of leadership. Real leadership is about being tough inside where it counts. It's about being disciplined and strong enough to see the greater good in any situation. It's about setting aside what you want for the greater good of the people you represent, even if you know they are not going to like it. John Kerry could have huffed and puffed and divided our country in 2004, but he didn't because he set aside his personal feelings for the good our our party and our country.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
100. Bush had to do that because of his own failures
He had below 50% approval ratings in an election year and Presidents with ratings that low do not get re-elected. He had a crappy economy and a failing war on his hands.

Bush convinced enough people that Kerry would be worse than him and that's how he won. Kerry failed to attack Bush for dodging the draft and being a chickenhawk and that's why he lost.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
greeneyedboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. 1) it shouldn't have been close enough to steal; 2) he didn't contest; 3) why rehash this again?
let's work on 2008, and on kicking ass in Congress so we can build our majorities there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. Cause people think that the media will go easy on anyone
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 03:35 PM by politicasista
but Kerry and think that all of the above won't happen to anyone else. :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. You have forgotten the atmosphere of 2004
9/11 was still in the forefront of people's minds. The incompetence of the Bush administration was only apparent to those who did some studying of what happened in the planning, or lack therof, of the Iraq War. It only became apparent for a larger portion of the electorate after Hurricane Katrina that the administration was completely incompetent. You could argue that Katrina delivered us the Democratic Congress, people were SO ANGRY. But in 2004, people were afraid, and they closed their eyes to the truth. Everyone knew Kerry won all three debates, yet the lies that preceded the debates insued right after the debate. The media was complicit to allowing those lies to stand. And don't forget OBL's inserting of himself into the election with his tape the Friday before the election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
David Dunham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
7. Kerry let Bush define him as a flip-flopper and failed to respond effectively.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. Clinton let GOP impeach him and failed to respond effectively....because
a COMPLICIT media had every INTENTION of making sure it happened. Just as they had every intention of ignoring Kerry's counterattacks on the swifts and Bush while protecting BushInc.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
39. All elections tag those campaigning with something or other.
That in itself does not lose elections. Flip-flopper was not necessarily perceived as a weakness to many. The only people to fall for that were the kool-aid drinkers. Most people realize it is necessary to change direction and rethink votes because of changing circumstances. Sorry, but it is ridiculous to use this as an example of a poor campaign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
13. This is a bad thread
Not that I disagree, but it provides for an airing of dirty laundry that doesn't get anybody anywhere.

I never thought Bush could be beaten. It was only in the last two weeks that I let hope overwhelm me. But realistically I never thought it was in the cards.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Only to the people who will have to keep repeating
he lost! There isn't much else there. The campaign record speaks for itself!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. "The campaign record speaks for itself!"
It certainly does.

Did I mention that he lost?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. LOL!
Frantic aren't you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. Not frantic, just astounded at the steepness of your learning curve.
This argument is moot anyway. Kerry has no chance of getting the 2008 nomination.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
51. So, it doesn't mean he was bad, it means he lost to a war time President
whose campaign staff scared the sh*t out of the public. Considering what kerry was up against, he came damn close. Yeah, to bad he didn't win, but unfortunately thats what happened.
Since you seem so negative on those who has lost campaigns, I guess whomever you decide to support will have to have alway won every race they have campaigned in.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. Oh please stop with the "war time" bullshit
Next you'll be saying that the campaign was "hard work". George W. Bush was a small, feeble man with a 47% approval rating. He should not just have been beaten, he should have been embarrassed.

Ask yourself this: How is it that Kerry's record as an actual war hero became so tarnished, while Bush's status as a fake war president won out? Only one person was responsible for correcting that situation. And he lost.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. Frantic! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. Clueless! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. Have it your way! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. I will! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
61. You should ask for this to be locked
It's not helping anybody.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #61
70. With all due respect,
you can simply ignore the thread!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
43. I was rooting for Kerry - but he just didn't fight back
The idealistic John Kerry of the Vietnam era had been replaced by a more malleable and pliable version in 2004. That's what was really sad about the campaign's demise.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
45. Those pics make it mighter hard to believe Kerry lost.
Where are the comparable pics of the Bush/Cheney rallies? Hmmmm, that's right...all we ever saw were inside auditorium close-ups.

No one will ever convince me Kerry lost the popular vote.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
50. if any of that were based on reality then it could be considered but GIGO as they say
it is obvious by any analysis that the election was seriously flawed. democratic votes were both suppressed before and switched after.

exit polls tell the truth. kerry's campaign was fine and his victory would have been overwhelming.
my problem with kerry is that everyone knew beforehand what was going to happen, he didnt listen, and afterward, instead of fighting on the principal of it, he folded his tent and went home leaving us all in the lurch without a spokesman.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #50
66. Not really what happened!
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/ohio_provisional_11-03-04.html

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/02/election.main/index.html

http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_print.asp?id=25809

I worked as a Green volunteer . . .

on the recount here in Ohio and you're right, Kerry's team was here all the way. In one of the counties I witnessed in, his witnesses worked late into the night with our coordinator and uncovered false numbers that led to the revelation that every ballot in the county had been recounted w/o witnesses between the certified vote and the official recount itself.

Snip...

by ponderer on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 02:14:12 PM EDT

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2006/4/23/115230/700/26#c26


Kerry continued legal efforts:

Today, Kerry-Edwards filed a document in support of that statement. Most significant, Kerry-Edwards also filed today a separate document in support of our motion for hearing with two critical attachments: 1) a declaration from Kerry-Edwards attorney Don McTigue regarding a survey he conducted of Kerry-Edwards county recount coordinators; 2) a summary chart of the results of that survey (which highlight the inconsistent standards applied during the recount).

http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2005/2/24/183243/756

http://www.truthout.org/pdf/cobbbadnariktransfertatement22305.pdf
http://www.truthout.org/pdf/kerryedwardsmctiguedecl22405.pdf
http://www.truthout.org/pdf/kerryedwardsmotionforhearing22405.pdf
http://www.truthout.org/pdf/kerryedwardssummarychart22405.pdf (counting)
http://www.truthout.org/pdf/kerryedwardstransferstatement22405.pdf


"In his first high-profile address since conceding the presidential election, Senator John F. Kerry used Boston's annual Martin Luther King Jr. memorial breakfast yesterday to decry what he called the suppression of thousands of would-be voters last November.

"Thousands of people were suppressed in their efforts to vote. Voting machines were distributed in uneven ways," the former Democratic nominee told an enthusiastic audience of 1,200 at the Boston Convention and Exhibition Center in South Boston."

"In Democratic districts, it took people four, five, 11 hours to vote, while Republicans through in 10 minutes. Same voting machines, same process, our America," Kerry said.

Snip...

In an e-mail message he sent to his supporters on the day before Congress certified the election results earlier this month, Kerry cited "widespread reports of irregularities, questionable practices by some election officials, and instances of lawful voters being denied the right to vote" in the battleground state of Ohio.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/01/18/kerry_alleges_voters_were_suppressed?mode=PF


As Conyers report stated:

Whether the cumulative effect of these legal violations would have altered the actual outcome is not known at this time. However, we do know that there are many serious and intentional violations which violate Ohio’s own law, that the Secretary of State has done everything in his power to avoid accounting for such violations, and it is incumbent on Congress to protect the integrity of its own laws by recognizing the seriousness of these legal violations.

B. Need for Further Congressional Hearings

It is also clear the U.S. Congress needs to conduct additional and more vigorous hearings into the irregularities in the Ohio presidential election and around the country.


While we have conducted our own Democratic hearings and investigation, we have been handicapped by the fact that key participants in the election, such as Secretary of State Blackwell, have refused to cooperate in our hearings or respond to Mr. Conyers questions. While GAO officials are prepared to move forward with a wide ranging analysis of systemic problems in the 2004 elections, they are not planning to conduct the kind of specific investigation needed to get to the bottom of the range of problems evident in Ohio. As a result, it appears that the only means of obtaining his cooperation in any congressional investigation is under the threat of subpoena, which only the Majority may require.

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/issues/issues/election.html


Almost a year later:

August 31, 2005

Kerry and Edwards to Stay in Recount Case!!! Trial to Start in August 2006

Don McTigue, attorney for John Kerry and John Edwards, appeared in federal court in Toledo, before Judge Carr, on August 30th, and told the Court that Kerry and Edwards intend to remain in the case.

Judge Carr set an August 22, 2006 trial date.

Additionally he consolidated the two recount cases, Rios v. Blackwell and Yost v. Cobb & Badnarik. He gave the plaintiffs until September 15th to file amended pleadings (plaintiff's counsel had requested an opportunity to streamline their claims).

Judge Carr set a discovery cut-off of May 1, 2006, and ruled that any summary judgment motions must be made by May 15, 2006.

http://fairnessbybeckerman.blogspot.com/2005/08/kerry-and-edwards-to-stay-in-recount.html


February 10, 2006

Associated Press Reports: Ohio Recount Suit Dismissed
According to the Associated Press, the Ohio recount suit has been dismissed:

Judge Dismisses Penultimate Ohio Lawsuit
By JOHN McCARTHY, Associated Press Writer
Thu Feb 9, 10:42 PM ET

COLUMBUS, Ohio - A federal judge has thrown out a lawsuit over Ohio's recount of the 2004 presidential election, leaving only one court challenge remaining from the state's role in the re-election of President Bush.

U.S. District Judge James Carr in Toledo threw out the suit filed by a voting rights group on behalf of the Green Party and Libertarian candidates. Tuesday's dismissal, barring an appeal, leaves active only a suit filed by the League of Women Voters of Ohio.

http://fairnessbybeckerman.blogspot.com/2006/02/associated-press-reports-ohio-recount.html


Blogged by JC on 08.22.05 @ 04:19 PM ET

Fighting for Every Voter

A few more words about an issue that is of the utmost importance to me.

As political candidates, we spend considerable time and effort every election cycle fighting for votes. After the election, whether won or lost, many candidates leave the irregularities of the election behind. But we owe the voters more than that. When voters are disenfrachised, we owe it to them to seek justice and expose the truth. That is why I have been so proud of the Kerry-Edwards campaign's ongoing involvement in the investigation and litigation of what went wrong in Ohio. I wrote to the candidates recently to ask that they continue to be involved in this important endeavor.

This is not about the past. It is about figuring out what went wrong and why -- and then getting the next election right, not for the Democratic Party, but for all of the voters.

http://www.conyersblog.us/archives/00000213.htm


August 31, 2005

Kerry and Edwards to Stay in Recount Case!!! Trial to Start in August 2006

Don McTigue, attorney for John Kerry and John Edwards, appeared in federal court in Toledo, before Judge Carr, on August 30th, and told the Court that Kerry and Edwards intend to remain in the case.

Judge Carr set an August 22, 2006 trial date.

Additionally he consolidated the two recount cases, Rios v. Blackwell and Yost v. Cobb & Badnarik. He gave the plaintiffs until September 15th to file amended pleadings (plaintiff's counsel had requested an opportunity to streamline their claims).

Judge Carr set a discovery cut-off of May 1, 2006, and ruled that any summary judgment motions must be made by May 15, 2006.

http://fairnessbybeckerman.blogspot.com/2005/08/kerry-and-edwards-to-stay-in-recount.html


More in these interviews:

http://audio.wegoted.com/podcasting/122105SenatorKerry.mp3

http://www.stephaniemiller.com/bits/2006_0517_kerry.mp3

From the RFK Jr. article:

By midnight, the official tallies showed a decisive lead for George Bush -- and the next day, lacking enough legal evidence to contest the results, Kerry conceded.
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen/1


As Rolling Stone now states:

Enough. Only a complete investigation by federal authorities can determine the full extent of any bribery and vote rigging that has taken place. The public must be assured that the power to count the votes -- and to recount them, if necessary -- will not be ceded to for-profit corporations with a vested interest in superseding the will of the people. America's elections are the most fundamental element of our democracy -- not a market to be privatized by companies like Diebold.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10463874/editorial_a_call_for_investigation



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #66
159. conceding the very next day when it was obvious they stole it sucked in my book.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
58. Kerry ran a horrible campaign. He lost to the stupidest man
ever to run for the office. As soon as he did his little 'Kerry reporting for duty' bit , it was over. It was one blunder after another. The only reason it was close is because bush is a complete incompetent. Kerry wouldn't stand a chance against McCain or any other real candidate. Kerry isn't a viable candidate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #58
67. Who do you consider a real candidate besides McCain? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #58
69. Oh, says who? You! Please, Kerry could debate McCain under a
table or Clinton for that matter.
Besides, what's your problem? If he doesn't stand a chance why get so worked up about this thread? How do you explain the Republicans going after the one strong voice on Iraq. Gee, seems like he might be just a little more important than you would like to give him credit for.
If he wants to run and people want to support him what business is it of yours?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
59. Those pictures and numbers are amazing. he may of lost, but
I don't care. I intend to support him again. I can think of no one more qualified to run this country and wanting the position for the right reasons.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. They are amazing. One huge "NOT BUSH" rally
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 03:59 PM by jgraz
Oh wait, was Kerry there?

ETA: And yet he still lost.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
65. I don't believe for a minute that he "lost"
and I didn't believe it that Tuesday. He was ahead in the polls all day, there were huge lines of Dems waiting to vote for him, and then that evening what do you know, the machines said otherwise.

Should he have given his concession speech on Wednesday morning? Of course. He had no choice. There's still no solid evidence of malfeasance and the Dem party is still not admitting that the election was stolen.

What the hell else could he have done? :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. It was more like a forfeit
"Should he have given his concession speech on Wednesday morning? Of course. He had no choice. There's still no solid evidence of malfeasance and the Dem party is still not admitting that the election was stolen."

This is the exact kind of philosophy that will motivate me to work against a Kerry nomination in 2008. OF COURSE he had a choice. He could have fought for what he believed. Instead he engaged in craven political calculus and left all of his supporters twisting in the wind.

And if you believe there is no solid evidence of malfeasance, you need to read more. But even if I give you the point, ask yourself how much easier it would have been to get solid evidence if our candidate hadn't thrown in the towel the next day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #71
79. What on earth are you talking about?
"He could have fought for what he believed?" Like that would mean squat without hard evidence? Get a clue sir.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. It's called "honor"
Something John Kerry should have understood. Instead, he took the coward's way out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. And he did the honorable thing
just like he's always done. Instead of dragging his party into another screaming foodfight he politely ended the campaign.

Please show me the evidence that you think would have convinced Mr. and Mrs. Missouri that any talk of election fraud was stark raving lunacy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. Waiting on "Mr. and Mrs. Missouri" to approve his battles is Kerry's problem
He's never seemed comfortable in his own skin, never seemed quite willing to go to the mat for what he believed.

He proved that beyond a doubt in 2008. When it's this important, you don't wait for a poll, you make your case and lead the public. When our democracy is being hijacked -- and you know it from your internal numbers -- you don't wait for the DC Dems to give their OK, you get out in front and make them follow you.

Do anything less, and you don't deserve to be president.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. "never seemed quite willing to go to the mat for what he believed."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Of course s/he doesn't.
Who knows what bug is up his/her butt but it has nothing to do with reality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. Really?
Did he or did he not vacillate continually on the IWR. Did he not say in July that he *still* would have voted for it, even given what he knew. Was *that* a courageous decision?

Did he or did he not refuse to take on BushCo in the convention? Did he not force all speakers to remove "negative" statements about Bush?

Did he not let the swiftboat guys hand him his ass without saying "boo" for weeks?

Did he not pass up opportunity after opportunity to take on Bush's record on the war, 9/11, his military service, etc, etc, etc because he decided to follow a campaign strategy rather than his heart?

And (here's the actual bug) didn't he abandon every person who voted for him when he refused to even challenge a clearly fraudulent election?

You guys can fall all over each other with your Kerry fangirl bullshit. The fact is that the man let us down and he ain't gonna get another chance to do that.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. Right, and I'm sure you had your purple band-aid on.
People are going to find a reason to hate the guy who beat their guy or whatever no matter what he said or did so enjoy your hatefest and pull the lever for Rice/McCain in '08.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #92
109. That's crap and you know it
You want to have a debate, fine. You want to demonize anyone who doesn't share your opinion, go check out the freeper sites.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. More facts:
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 04:54 PM by ProSense
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #84
88. I didn't until 2004
but that's how he came across to me, even though I supported him. And that's how he was successfully painted by the Rethugs. That wouldn't have happened if Kerry had come out swinging and never let up.

Instead, he played nice during the convention, let bullshit accusations hang in the air and GAVE UP ON US ALL when the bogus vote came in.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. Welcome to politics.
This isn't true confessions. If Kerry didn't exercise a considerable degree of political judgement and self-control we wouldn't be talking about him because he wouldn't be a four-term senator and once and future presidential candidate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
72. the people arguing are not arguing on fact, or intelligence, or
reason

it is a waste of time that they are either unaware, uniformed, or attack on peronal reason (not liking the man)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #72
103. Kerry is an honorable man
who surrounded himself with a horrid campaign team. Bob Shrum has worked on 8 presidential campaigns and has not won. Clinton didn't use him and won. I wonder why.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
76. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
87. Forgot one
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pansypoo53219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
96. ONLY BECAUSE OF GORE AND HE WAS RUNNING AGAINST
the worst fucking preznit EVER!
and georgie threw those debates on purpose i bet. fucktard wanted to go home to texass.
now kerry, LURCH, better sit the fuck down and all the DC turds who took down dean to support his lame ass.

he kerry, WHAT WAS YOUR FUCKING PLAN?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. "georgie threw those debates on purpose"
Wow, that's a new one!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
102. His campaign was poorly run.
There were so many times I just winced. The wind surfing photos, the hunting trips, the non-answer answers...

Then I would look at the guy in the debates and the guy in Going Upriver and wonder where the heck that guy was the rest of the time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. Check the editing room of the corporate media n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
105. KERRY WON! NOT "NARROW VICTORY FOR W" but a steal.
I would have admired him had he fought for his win and our votes.
But he lets you, his supporter to still believe in W's narrow victory - and that burns me....:cry: :puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
114. Kerry at 7% in latest CNN poll
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 06:26 PM by jgraz
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/20/2008.poll


Remind me again why we're even having this conversation?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #114
115. Point?
Hillary wins? Anybody below 7% has no chance in hell? Anybody not on the list (Richardson) is burnt toast?



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #115
116.  let me walk you through it
Kerry was the LAST presidential nominee. It's not like he's lacking name recognition. People know him and nobody's interested in seeing him nominated. Notice also that this is 5 percentage points lower than the October poll. So he's not only unpopular, he's getting less so.

You guys aren't this dumb. Seriously, what is it with the Kerry fetish?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. "You guys aren't this dumb."
You aren't either and you believe Richardson has a shot!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. Who the fuck is Richardson?
I think you have me confused with someone else.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #118
120. Sorry, I did mistake you for someone else, but
the point about the polls still stand: Kerry is still in the top tier of Democratic candidates. It's simply too early to say these polls are conclusive!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #115
165. According to that poll...
you add up Clark and Biden to equal Kerry.

My guess is that Clark supporters would dissagree with the 3% they have him at. I don't know about Biden supporters. There must be a few somewhere if he's at 4%...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
126. it was the "so very well timed" Bin Laden tape that did Kerry in
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 07:33 PM by AZDemDist6
I remember feeling my heart sink to my shoes when I saw that damned tape on TV otherwise Kerry had it in the bag

not to mention the questionable voting machine shenanigans in not only OH but FL, NM and IIRC a couple other states

:just saying..... :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
128. That is a myth. Kerry ran a great campaign and attracted LARGE
crowds (BTW thanks for the visual reminder) as opposed to the pre-screened tiny crowds that * garnered.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
139. Well I was one of those 59 million votes, and I did it even though it stunk to do so.
He ran a crappy ass campaign.

He got my vote because he was the Democratic candidate.

So I plugged my nose and voted.

Don't assume every vote he got meant the same thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #139
147. And then there were those of us PROUD to finally vote for an anti-corruption,
open government Democrat for a change, instead of for the COVERUP Democrats we'd been stuck voting for in the 90s.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #147
150. Like I said - not every vote meant the same thing.
You could have run a doorknob against Bush and got most of those votes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #150
152. Not really!
I would not have voted for a doorknob!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #152
153. I said "most".
Apparently you are one of the people who'd prefer * to a doorknob.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #150
156. Except REAL patriots prefer anti-corruption, open government Democrats while
dupable people prefer being snowed by manipulators who use their personalities as cover while they COVERUP the crimes of BushInc.

Democrats, the Truth Still Matters!
By Robert Parry
(First Posted May 11, 2006)

Editor's Note: With the Democratic victories in the House and Senate, there is finally the opportunity to demand answers from the Bush administration about important questions, ranging from Dick Cheney's secret energy policies to George W. Bush's Iraq War deceptions. But the Democrats are sure to be tempted to put the goal of "bipartisanship" ahead of the imperative for truth.

Democrats, being Democrats, always want to put governance, such as enacting legislation and building coalitions, ahead of oversight, which often involves confrontation and hard feelings. Democrats have a difficult time understanding why facts about past events matter when there are problems in the present and challenges in the future.

Given that proclivity, we are re-posting a story from last May that examined why President Bill Clinton and the last Democratic congressional majority (in 1993-94) shied away from a fight over key historical scandals from the Reagan-Bush-I years -- and the high price the Democrats paid for that decision:

My book, Secrecy & Privilege, opens with a scene in spring 1994 when a guest at a White House social event asks Bill Clinton why his administration didn’t pursue unresolved scandals from the Reagan-Bush era, such as the Iraqgate secret support for Saddam Hussein’s government and clandestine arms shipments to Iran.

Clinton responds to the questions from the guest, documentary filmmaker Stuart Sender, by saying, in effect, that those historical questions had to take a back seat to Clinton’s domestic agenda and his desire for greater bipartisanship with the Republicans.

Clinton “didn’t feel that it was a good idea to pursue these investigations because he was going to have to work with these people,” Sender told me in an interview. “He was going to try to work with these guys, compromise, build working relationships.”

Clinton’s relatively low regard for the value of truth and accountability is relevant again today because other centrist Democrats are urging their party to give George W. Bush’s administration a similar pass if the Democrats win one or both houses of Congress.

Reporting about a booklet issued by the Progressive Policy Institute, a think tank of the Democratic Leadership Council, the Washington Post wrote, “these centrist Democrats … warned against calls to launch investigations into past administration decisions if Democrats gain control of the House or Senate in the November elections.”

These Democrats also called on the party to reject its “non-interventionist left” wing, which opposed the Iraq War and which wants Bush held accountable for the deceptions that surrounded it.

“Many of us are disturbed by the calls for investigations or even impeachment as the defining vision for our party for what we would do if we get back into office,” said pollster Jeremy Rosner, calling such an approach backward-looking.

Yet, before Democrats endorse the DLC’s don’t-look-back advice, they might want to examine the consequences of Clinton’s decision in 1993-94 to help the Republicans sweep the Reagan-Bush scandals under the rug. Most of what Clinton hoped for – bipartisanship and support for his domestic policies – never materialized.

‘Politicized’ CIA

After winning Election 1992, Clinton also rebuffed appeals from members of the U.S. intelligence community to reverse the Reagan-Bush “politicization” of the CIA’s analytical division by rebuilding the ethos of objective analysis even when it goes against a President’s desires.

Instead, in another accommodating gesture, Clinton gave the CIA director’s job to right-wing Democrat, James Woolsey, who had close ties to the Reagan-Bush administration and especially to its neoconservatives.

One senior Democrat told me Clinton picked Woolsey as a reward to the neocon-leaning editors of the New Republic for backing Clinton in Election 1992.

“I told that the New Republic hadn’t brought them enough votes to win a single precinct,” the senior Democrat said. “But they kept saying that they owed this to the editors of the New Republic.”

During his tenure at the CIA, Woolsey did next to nothing to address the CIA’s “politicization” issue, intelligence analysts said. Woolsey also never gained Clinton’s confidence and – after several CIA scandals – was out of the job by January 1995.

At the time of that White House chat with Stuart Sender, Clinton thought that his see-no-evil approach toward the Reagan-Bush era would give him an edge in fulfilling his campaign promise to “focus like a laser beam” on the economy.

He was taking on other major domestic challenges, too, like cutting the federal deficit and pushing a national health insurance plan developed by First Lady Hillary Clinton.

So for Clinton, learning the truth about controversial deals between the Reagan-Bush crowd and the autocratic governments of Iraq and Iran just wasn’t on the White House radar screen. Clinton also wanted to grant President George H.W. Bush a gracious exit.

“I wanted the country to be more united, not more divided,” Clinton explained in his 2004 memoir, My Life. “President Bush had given decades of service to our country, and I thought we should allow him to retire in peace, leaving the (Iran-Contra) matter between him and his conscience.”

Unexpected Results

Clinton’s generosity to George H.W. Bush and the Republicans, of course, didn’t turn out as he had hoped. Instead of bipartisanship and reciprocity, he was confronted with eight years of unrelenting GOP hostility, attacks on both his programs and his personal reputation.

Later, as tensions grew in the Middle East, the American people and even U.S. policymakers were flying partially blind, denied anything close to the full truth about the history of clandestine relationships between the Reagan-Bush team and hostile nations in the Middle East.

Clinton’s failure to expose that real history also led indirectly to the restoration of Bush Family control of the White House in 2001. Despite George W. Bush’s inexperience as a national leader, he drew support from many Americans who remembered his father’s presidency fondly.

If the full story of George H.W. Bush’s role in secret deals with Iraq and Iran had ever been made public, the Bush Family’s reputation would have been damaged to such a degree that George W. Bush’s candidacy would not have been conceivable.

Not only did Clinton inadvertently clear the way for the Bush restoration, but the Right’s political ascendancy wiped away much of the Clinton legacy, including a balanced federal budget and progress on income inequality. A poorly informed American public also was easily misled on what to do about U.S. relations with Iraq and Iran.

In retrospect, Clinton’s tolerance of Reagan-Bush cover-ups was a lose-lose-lose – the public was denied information it needed to understand dangerous complexities in the Middle East, George W. Bush built his presidential ambitions on the nation’s fuzzy memories of his dad, and Republicans got to enact a conservative agenda.

Clinton’s approach also reflected a lack of appreciation for the importance of truth in a democratic Republic. If the American people are expected to do their part in making sure democracy works, they need to be given at least a chance of being an informed electorate.

Yet, Clinton – and now some pro-Iraq War Democrats – view truth as an expendable trade-off when measured against political tactics or government policies. In reality, accurate information about important events is the lifeblood of democracy.

Though sometimes the truth can hurt, Clinton and the Democrats should understand that covering up the truth can hurt even more. As Clinton’s folly with the Reagan-Bush scandals should have taught, the Democrats may hurt themselves worst of all when helping the Republicans cover up the truth.

Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories in the 1980s for the Associated Press and Newsweek. His latest book, Secrecy & Privilege: Rise of the Bush Dynasty from Watergate to Iraq, can be ordered at secrecyandprivilege.com. It's also available at Amazon.com, as is his 1999 book, Lost History: Contras, Cocaine, the Press & 'Project Truth.'

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #156
157.  He got my vote.
Don't add insult to injury with your hysteria.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Unbowed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
162. Thanks for posting this.
I think Kerry did one hell of a job against incredible odds. He was attacked from the right and undermined from the left. The naysayers in the media didn't help either.

Some of us think he actually did win, just as Gore did in 2000. Blackwell in charge of voting was like leaving a fox in charge of the hen house.

I'm surprised by how many people here are quick to jump in with criticism. The very first response to your post was negative and that individual seems to have dogged you through the entire thread.

The people here who attack John Kerry apparently have a mission. I've read a few other threads and I see the same thing over and over again. Whenever anyone posts a topic about Kerry, it's like putting out cheese for the rats. I can't find the thread now, but there was a really nasty one that I read the other day. There were people posting that had to come from republican land.

But thank you for posting this. There are many of us out here who love Kerry, but don't post too often because of all the haters here at DU. I'll try to ignore the idiotic replies and just read your informative posts. Keep up the good work.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #162
163. Very nice comment. Thanks!
Agree, the pattern is blatantly obvious.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #162
164. Thank you, you made my night. "Cheese for the rats", I like it.
Thanks for supporting Kerry. Every other candidate is allowed to make mistakes and to be themselves. Senator Kerry isn't even given credit for all the things he has done in support of us- the people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #162
169. Well said.
Welcome to DU, Unbowed!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
168. Before and after convention
Before convention:

05.21.04

STRATEGERY:

The Kerry campaign's brain trust is regularly mocked and second-guessed for its strategic decisions, while Karl Rove somehow retains his reputation as a genius. Maybe it's time to rethink that conventional wisdom.

We can already assess the effect of the two big strategic moves of the pre-convention period. The Bush campaign's decision was to spend some $60 million in an attempt to discredit Kerry as a viable alternative to the president before the race really started. The Kerry campaign's decision was to concentrate on fundraising and allow events in Iraq and 527 spending to parry the Bush assault. Conventional wisdom among nervous Democrats outside the Kerry campaign, as well as much of the press, was that Kerry was making a Titanic mistake and Bush was making a bold and brilliant move similar to Clinton in 1996.

But the results are in. Kerry leads Bush in almost every national poll. His fundraising is astronomical, and he is pumping up his ad campaign just as Bush is ratcheting his down. The two main assumptions of the Bush campaign--that Kerry would be seriously under-funded and that he could be crippled by advertising--have proven to be wrong.


After convention:

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/07-31-2004/0002222417&EDATE=

Then the Swift Liars/media assault began:

By the time the Swift Boat story had played out, CNN, chasing after ratings leader Fox News, found time to mention the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth–hereafter, Swifties–in nearly 300 separate news segments, while more than one hundred New York Times articles and columns made mention of the Swifties. And during one overheated 12-day span in late August, the Washington Post mentioned the Swifties in page-one stories on Aug. 19, 20, 21 (two separate articles), 22, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, and 31. http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=2880">It was a media monsoon that washed away Kerry’s momentum coming out of the Democratic convention.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-24-06 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
171. yeah, great campaign
he lost to the worst, most corrupt "president" in history
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-24-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #171
173. Sometimes thing are not always what they seem!
Kerry wasn't the first to lose "to the worst, most corrupt "president" in history" who inexplicably had an approval rating of over 80% in 2002 to still in the low to mid 50s throughout the campaign, during a time when support for the war went as high as 74%.


Could be the media and other forces, but who knows!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bigriver Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-24-06 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
172. That and 3.50 gets you a latte at Starbucks.
Next!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 16th 2024, 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC