as a southern white male, what do I owe?

[cprompt]

long post (rant) but before you read it don't look at my post count and dismiss it, i browse a lot more than i post and my join date here is probably well before yours, with that said enjoy:

I was born in a small town in Northern Mississippi. I grew up with 2 older brothers. We were lower-middle class. My father dropped out of school in 10th grade to support his family. He went to work in a factory as a night shift manager. We didn't have a good deal of things like a lot of the other kids but we always had enough. We were fed, we had clothes, we had a home, we had a family. The company my father worked for got bought out and he was laid off, not too many places wanted to hire an early 40's man with no education so he had to take a huge pay cut and my mother had to go to work to make ends meet. I went to public school. My first job was at a mom and pop pizza shop where I was laid off a few weeks after starting due to lack of business. I went to work flipping burgers at Wendys. After two years, I was a grill cook at a steakhouse in town. I made $8/hr and moved into an apartment with a roommate at 17. I got a full academic scholarship to a local college, but also a woman pregnant about the same time, I commuted to school and worked 2 jobs. The woman and I didn't agree so I got full custody of the child at 4 months old, 7 years later she has yet to see him since, I raised him alone. I drove a route truck for Coca-Cola since I lost my scholarship, they didnt pay well but had full tuition reimbursement. I had a horrible route, most of my stops were cash on delivery in bad parts of Memphis (look up the crime rate for grins to get an idea of what my nights were like). One of the stores I delivered to had a pretty woman there that 3 years later would become my wife. I graduated from U of Memphis. I went to work in the IT field for Dover Elevators, then BellSouth. I wanted a change so I moved into sales. Have been in it now for 4 years. Everyone I know or consider a friend has a similar story. Now that you know my backgroud let me begin:

What do I, as the "White male majority" owe? The term is thrown around here like me and my friends meet up and determine how next to screw *insert group*. How was it easier for me to get into college? Get a good job? A nice home? A decent living? Don't talk to me of racism or the African-American story, I live in a town that is 67% African-American, born and raised. I get it. I see it and trust me IT'S ON BOTH SIDES OF THE FENCE, more than most imagine. If you live in an area like the Northeast or the Midwest, trust me YOU DON'T GET IT. How can anyone that grew up 98% white understand racism, the only black people you know are doing there best to fit in with you.

What's wrong with a white scholarship fund? If we are truly seeking "equality" what's the problem with it? Equality doesn't mean reverse discrimination. Equality means if you can do it so can I. What's wrong with White Entertainment Television? The United White College Fund? Miss White America? And don't say these already exist b/c it's not the same.

Why am I considered stupid due to geography? I scored a 32 on my ACT which is a 1400-1450 on the SAT. I do well at my job which requires me to be with attorneys, doctors, etc. all day long. I coach a youth football team, I deal with 21 kids teaching them everything step by step about a game I love. Why am I considered stupid b/c in the South we talk slower? We sound different? Isn't this discrimination in itself?

Why do people here underestimate someone just b/c they are from the South? Let me tell you, the south has a lot to offer. As far as "Why would anyone want to live in Mississippi?" Let me tell you what we have that New York doesn't. Here for my $65,000/year income, my wife stays home with my child (her choice), I have a 2250 sq ft home with an inground swimming pool, (2) 2006 vehicles, 1.5 acres of land, zero credit card debt, and I live in a town that was rated in the top 25 best places to live in the country by CNN/Money last year, see how well you do in New York on the same budget. The average income here is on board dollar wise with national average it just goes a LOT further here.

This place has changed a good deal since it's origin, which is fine. But there is a "I am better than you" attitude that is strewn all over this place now noone seems to care about. On another note, I am sick and damned tired of the crap about our soldiers being the "less educated" and the "poor". My middle brother served with the 13th MEU in Iraq, he has a Masters in Education and a law degree from Ole Miss (Damn good law school). He ranted and raved the whole time about his whole group and how he had the same impression some here do until he served with them, most had a similar education as him.

So my question to you, DU, is simple, what do I, or any of the evil "white male majority" from the South owe you? Besides taxes, being a good citizen, raising a good child, what do I owe you?

Secondly, how have I, or anyone like me in the "white male majority" oppressed you or anyone for that matter? What did I do to hold you down from acheiving your goals in life?

If you ever want to reach out to the "white male majority" quit knocking us down all the damn time for no reason. I have had nothing given to me, I was not given a pass nor anyone I have ever known. When I was at the school pleading my case to keep my scholarship and that I only had to miss classes due to the work/child situation, none of the three white women on the committee said "ok you are white it's fine go ahead". I lost it instead. I wasn't given a premium route at Coke and told "here's the white route". You tell me what do I owe? Why do I owe it? Me personally, what do I owe, not my ancestors, what do I owe and why do I owe it?

[Singular73]

1. Well, some logic to start with.

In a simple sense, they are called Venn diagrams to start with.

Look at the Senate. Look at CEO's of corporations. They are white males, to a great degree.

Hell, Harold Ford almost made HISTORY by being a black man elected to the Senate in the south.

So its not a stereotype. Its a reality.

People in positions of power in this country, are dominately white male.

Oki, here's where the logic part comes in.

Statement:

People in positions of power in this country are dominately white male.

Given:

I am a white male.

Therefore, I am a person in position of power.

BEEEEEEP wrong.

See what I'm getting at? You aren't the target my friend.

[cprompt]

3. then why?

why stereo type the whole race? the majority of crimes committed in Memphis are by African americans, the city is majorily african american. I am not a rocket scientist but law of averages tells me this is probably how it should be. Does that mean all African-Americans are criminals? Very far from it. A few bad apples should spoil the whole bunch. If the USA is majorily white americans, why stereotype the whole race?

[AlienGirl]

12. Give me some examples of how you are stereotyped for being white.

The issue is not that extra goodies are distributed to white people (they aren't); the issue is that goodies are *not* distributed to non-white people. Not that you'll get a cookie for being white, but that Ayisha will be denied one because she's black.

The most important issue, though, is that 1% of the classroom has 99% of the cookies already! If we who don't have so many cookies had more cookies, we might not fight at all! And the people in charge just keep giving more and more cookies to that 1%.

Tucker

[angry_chuck]

70. yeah! where's my cookies?

i am pissed at that 1%...and ready to fight?

[femmedem]

87. Actually, an awful lot of whites do get extra goodies.

For example, white and black WWII veterans both got GI bills which subsidized college educations and home purchases. However, most blacks couldn't take advantage of their education benefits, because the traditional black colleges didn't have enough space to accommodate the returning black soldiers. And although both white and black veterans were able to buy homes, homes in white neighborhoods appreciated while homes in black neighborhoods didn't to the same extent. The result? An accumulation of greater wealth in white families than in black.

Also, many black families didn't receive social security benefits because jobs traditionally held by blacks such as domestic help were excluded. Therefore many black sons and daughters had to use their money to support aging parents. But in a larger percentage of white families, wealth was flowing from the older generation down to the younger.

Although in this post I'm talking mainly about whites and blacks, U.S. policies have similarly favored whites over other people of color.

A great resource: The Color of Wealth, by Meizhu Lui, Barbara Robles, Betsy Leonder-Wright, Rose Brewer, and Rebecca Adamson, with United for a Fair Economy.

Hi AlienGirl: it's rare I disagree with anything you wrote. :hi:

[exlrrp]

94. Here's what white males owe

I am a white male also. I have a simliar story to you but on the west coast (add also military service, 3 years as a paratrooper)
White people have been the beneficiaries of centuries of institutionalized white supremacy since the very beginning of our country. (white females too, to a lesser extent) Look at the story of your life and try and imagine how a black man in Mississippi would have had the opportunity to do that---as a matter of fact, many are doing that but with greater disadvantage.
I'm 58 years old. I know that virtually EVERY black person my age got an inferior education to me and I grew up in California!!think what education was like for 58 year old black people in Mississippi. Think they can compete fairly?
Anything I do, and you do, is done in a system set up by white people for the advantage of white people. With all our self made stories, we white men tend to be completely unaware of that--BECAUSE IT ALL WORKS FOR US! Stand back and look at it through other people's eyes and you see differently.
What white males, and females, and everybody else who considers him or herself to be an American owes is to demand that our national principles of equality be real and not just lip service. We have to sacrifice for that, giving everybody else an equal share of the pie will mean we get less because ultimately there's only so much pie.
But there is hope for white males--don't forget all the equality measures, woomen's suffrage, the civil rights laws, etc would never have happendd unless white males opened up and voted for them in the first place. We did vote to reduce our own power and continue to do so. (mostly)
What we owe America is to be Americans: one man one vote and aloow others to be the same.
by the way, I'm not all white males and don't presume to speak for them.

[alittlelark]

166. Okay, using you own words....

Your words in the post I am responding to - "woomen's suffrage, the civil rights laws, etc would never have happendd unless white males opened up and voted for them in the first place." (sic)

Uh, white males were afraid of being hanged or burned at the stake. Their wives refused to have 'marital relations' and there were riots in the streets. They were forced into ceding power. It is embarrassing for them that they were so ignorant for so long. Not all - many progressive men fought for those rights. The ones that did not are either ignorant, power-mad, or perverted to a degree I cannot fathom.

[Morgana LaFey]

99. Excellent post

And those are just some examples, but very good ones showing the subtle, unexposed nature and pervasiveness of racism, how sneaky it can be.

White people -- each and every one of us -- get a pass where people of color simply do not, cannot, and possibly will not ever. That's so pervasive it's almost invisible, as your exmples show.

But boy, just as soon as there are "enough" inroads made to allow them to be a little "more" equal, the white population rears up and says, "Whoa, so equal, no more. Not fully equal." And promptly puts up a huge fuss. It was perfectly okay for minorities to be discriminated against -- for whites to have virtually all the benefits at the expense of minorities -- all this time in the area of scholarships, entry into colleges, etc., (as just one example) but as soon as they make "too much" progress, somebody's got to make noises about a whites-only scholarship. If whites have any control over it whatsoever, there'll never be a time when they are at anything near the inherent disadvantage that minorities traditionally have been and mostly still are. In fact, there'll never be a time when they share full power and equality with minorities.

[noamnety]

2. Here's what you owe:

A little less anger, given your $65,000 income, a wife who doesn't have to work, a child, an in-ground pool, and your 2 vehicles. It's embarrassing.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

4. This all sounds very familiar. VERY familiar.

The business about the house and pool... I sense a presence I've not felt.. since...

[Suich]

9. How? Tell me, tell me!

:hi: please

[AlienGirl]

46. A thought like that came with great speed to me as well...

[SlavesandBulldozers]

110. I sense a presence I've not felt.. since...

:spray:

for the star wars quote, you sick bastard.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

129. "If you tombstone me, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly

imagine!"

[SlavesandBulldozers]

157. lol

take a look at this video if you have 10 minutes. and be prepared to laugh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A0rwG39Jzk

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

LOL... I'll see you that one, and throw this one into the pot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Amr8PTkZCI

[SlavesandBulldozers]

160. that was awesome

emperor ordering a turkey club sandwich. classic.

[cprompt]

7. not angry

I made a good life for myself despite some difficult circumstances. So what I should apoligize? At 19 I was a single father working 2 jobs and going to school, 8 years later I have done well. I am not angry, sorry if the post comes off that way.

[NashVegas]

103. 8 Years

That ought to be your tip-off, right there.

Ask your equally hard-working, educated, female and black friends & acquaintances how able they were to turn their similar circumstances around in that same amount of time.

I'm not slamming you for that, I congratulate you.

[Suich]

5. I've bookmarked your post and will read it tomorrow, cprompt.

Happy Thanksgiving to you!!!

:hi:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

6. This thread and original post would seem more valid if you linked examples of what

you are complaining about, rather than tar and feathering the whole site.

[GOPBasher]

8. I'll answer a few questions.

I don't think you owe anything at all as a white male. I myself am a white male. And I certainly know what you mean when you say that no advantage has come from that. I have a BS in physics, graduating magna cum laude, and a master's in education, and no one hired me. So, I'm working in a factory for $9.80/hour. I can see where you're coming from here.

I don't have a thing against ALL southerners. That would be predjudiced. I really don't like, however, the fact that the majority of the voters in your state cast their ballots for Republicans, despite the fact that Mississippi ALWAYS receives far more in social services than they pay out in taxes. That's unbelievably hypocritical. There are so many people down there benefiting from DEMOCRATIC social programs such as social security, medicare, student financial aid, the GI bill, (the list goes on and on), and they vote Republican? They are a bunch of hypocrites. Why the fuck would they vote against the people helping them and for the people hurting them? Wait, I think I know why.

It's the religion, right? As a Christian myself, let me tell you "Christians" who say that war is better than peace, or helping the poor is awful, or universal health care is evil socialism, or protecting future generations from ecological disasters is bad if it cuts into the profits of some businesses, are simply not reading the same bible I'm reading. There are more issues than abortion and gay marriage.

[cprompt]

13. Very well put

and yes I can agree in the South it is the "Bible Belt". The South is dominated by a vast religious population that for some odd reason votes republican. Unfortunately abortion and gay marriage are all the churches preach of, if you want to find God don't come to church here.

[GOPBasher]

21. Yes.

My problem is with people who vote Republican, especially the "Christian" right, regardless of where they come from. And I'm cool with everyone else. I don't like or hate entire regions. That would be stupid, to put it simply.

[Time for change]

97. I'm sorry you feel that way

I'm a white male too, and I've kind of lived in the South (does Florida count?) for several years. I can't say that I've ever noticed prejudice against southerners as a group on this board. It is undoubtedly true that racism is much more prevalent in the South than in the North, but that doesn't mean that non-racist southerners, of which there are plenty, including five relatively recent Democratic Presidents (Truman, Johnson, Carter, Clinton, and Gore), should be stigmatized.

[AbbyR]

128. Sort of ot, but....

If you move to Mississippi or Arkansas, I'm fairly sure you could find a teaching job - fast.

[jaysunb]

10. From a Black man born in Mississippi, you don't owe ME

anything.

You owe yourself a pat on the back for your perseverance and can do attitude.

I too had to overcome some steep hurdles to get to this so called "middle class " status. I'm also pretty sure you and I had to navigate different paths of resistance in our separate journeys, but the end results were and are worth it.

So...can we grab a beer and have a few laughs ???

[cprompt]

16. anytime

1st round is on me

[jaysunb]

20. Thanks

Now, go have youself a well deserved good Thanksgiving and lose some of that guilt shit. It's a heavy and unneccesary bit of baggage.

[cprompt]

26. u2

good nite, i'm out

[951-Riverside]

31. *snicker*

[jaysunb]

40. heh heh

:hi:

[EvangelOphileBlican]

93. Joe White / Joe Black

Both Joe's lets say have much the same public education, both Joe's go off to fight WW2, both Joe's make it back ok and get married and buy a house. Joe White moves into Whitetown where he buys a 1000 Sq.ft house say built in 1950 for 30 thousand dollars. Joe Black tries to move into Whitetown and is sent to the south end of Whitetown where he will just fit in a little better. Joe Black gets a great deal on a 1200 Sq. ft house built in 1950 30 thousand dollars because the seller wants to get out quick and move to north Whitetown where fits in a little better. Both Joe's have sons at the same time. Now we all can acknowledge Joe White flight it may not be as common now as it was back then but it happened.
Over the years more and more Joe Whites need to fit in so the houses in south Whitetown get cheaper or don't rise as fast as the highly sought after north Whitetown homes. Same thing with the jobs. Cost of living and so on rise so do wages, but not so fast in south Whitetown.
Both Joe's die after 50 years and leave their sons all what they have gained over the years. Joe White in the north Whitetown due to just fitting in leaves his son the advantaged highly sought after and very much appreciated gains of north Whitetown, while Joe Black who did all things equal, who was sent south,
did not realize the same appreciation and left his son the disadvantaged not so sought after unequal gains. This is a fact of racism it is unfair and ugly even if you don't start name calling.
It is generational whether we realize it or not.


I'm not much of a writer but I hope I made sense.

[Karenina]

102. Your sense and sensibility

more than make up for the writing style. :toast:

[HardRocker05]

133. you're right, but of course the OP's premise was a loaded question. he doesn't owe

you or me any more than he owes another white male, but traditionally, we haven't gotten that equal treatment from the southern white male, have we? yes, things ARE changing, but we are far from living in a world where women and minorities are given equal respect by white men.

[Ron Green]

11. Same as all the rest of us owe:

Forgiveness.

Forgive the world, forgive yourself.

[951-Riverside]

14. Start by leaving America and going back to whatever european nation you came from

...This is not your country.

;)

[cprompt]

18. to be honest

not sure which one, hell they have a great train system there just pick one I'll find something I like.

[Suich]

32. Are you serious?

I don't know what the "+" means...

:hi:

[Zookeeper]

55. And where are you from?

You seem to have some sense of ownership of America.

Last time I checked, the Spanish that invaded this continent were also European. Although they had nothing to do with developing the Constitution, Bill of Rights or establishing the U.S. Government.

I suppose anyone with Spanish blood should leave, also.

On Edit: My apologies if I misunderstood you. I should never venture into GD this late at night. :eyes:

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[951-Riverside]

127. Re: " Its not yours either"

or yours. (unless you happen to be Native American).

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[951-Riverside]

141. Re: "you just like to cap off on white people"

I was directing the comments towards the OP who happens to be white. I don't care about minutia and will continue to stand by what I said.

I actually own the land I live which I bought according to the laws of this land.

I take it you not aware of the supreme court's ruling on imminent domain. (if you're residing in the USA) ;)

Mein Spanisch ist so schlecht wie mein Deutscher. Glückliches Thanksgiving

[Mythsaje]

15. You've been here a while...

This is true.

And while I understand that being white doesn't necessarily mean we get a free pass, it does mean that we know that when we don't get that job, it ISN'T because of our race. When we don't get that car loan, it ISN'T because of the color of our skin. When we get pulled over by the police, it ISN'T because we were driving while black.

I personally don't feel like I owe anyone anything but respect. My ancestors got here around the turn of the century--immigrants from Ireland via Scotland. Poor, with probably little more than the clothes on their backs and a few steamer trunks. The others? Native American. And I don't have to tell anyone what THEY went through.

But giving respect doesn't hurt me. Realizing that they have obstacles I would never face doesn't cost me a thing.

[pitohui]

37. i was a white person pulled over DWB and more than once

just have a "black" car, you'll get the experience pretty quick, my dad had the same, it ain't like there are magical satellites in orbit yet actually checking out the skin color of the person driving the car

drive a "profile" car at night and the reaction of the cops when they see your white skin is fairly fucking priceless (excuse my french) -- altho it will teach anyone still in doubt a good lesson about racism in this nation

racism is part of the deal, and it's part of the "sell" of why they can convince lower middle class people like cops to keep chasing other poor people -- you may think DWB don't affect you but sure it does
-- it keeps you in line, you maintain your white skin only as long as you have the money to afford a non profile vehicle

[Mythsaje]

42. I wouldn't even know what a profile vehicle is...

I live on the Hilltop in Tacoma, WA. Anyone who knows the area can tell you all about it. The cars run the gamut from new and clean to beat-up and old. I myself drive an ugly ass Neon. My wife drives a sportscar (how did THAT happen?).

[enid602]

17. debt

I lived in Houston (pretty southern) for 11 years, and it was my first experience in living in a fairly integrated city. It dispelled my notions of the South. Lots of good people there. I don't think you owe anybody anything, unless you (like so many Nascar dads) supported the Bush regime. They were sold a promise of good Christian values, but received instead a huge mountain of debt that neither they nor the rest of us will be able to pay. THREE TRILLION DOLLARS so far; that's a lot of debt.

[blogslut]

19. This paragraph kills me

"What's wrong with a white scholarship fund? If we are truly seeking "equality" what's the problem with it? Equality doesn't mean reverse discrimination. Equality means if you can do it so can I. What's wrong with White Entertainment Television? The United White College Fund? Miss White America? And don't say these already exist b/c it's not the same."

Oh, do pleeeease explain further....

[cprompt]

22. please

explain how we already have one? There is a scholarship given exclusively to white kids? There is a television station that comes right out and says "for whites by whites" Ever hear at the end of the Miss America pagent, Ayisha comes in 2nd not that she's not fine it's that she's not white.

[blogslut]

27. Oh, come on

You can do better than that. Let me break your questions down for you:

1.) What's wrong with a white scholarship fund?

2.) What's wrong with White Entertainment Television?

3.) {What's wrong with} The United White College Fund?

4.) {What's wrong with} Miss White America?

[frustrated_lefty]

60. Why don't we rephrase this so it's a little more accurate?

1) Since there are specific scholarship funds designed for every race or gender other than caucasian males, why is it such a terrible thing to have a single white scholarship fund?

2) What's wrong with WET vs BET? Really, I suspect the only people who give a damn are so racio-centric, they present more of a problem than a solution. Get over it. One of the top grossing shows on t.v.: S.V.U. Who are the main characters? A black, a jew, an asian, a chick and a rabid white guy who has not enough self control. Denzel Washington and Halle Barry are two of the top box office sensations in the country. Antonio Banderas and Selma Hayek aren't that far behind. There are entertainment channels devoted solely to latinos, negroes, and homosexuals. Why can't white guys have a channel to themselves??! Other than Nascar? ;)

3) I'm not going to bitch about ANY college fund which puts more of our kids in school. You have a problem with that, it's your problem.

4) What's wrong with Miss White America? Well? You have Miss Latin America, Miss Black America, Miss Bolivia, Miss Herzgovinia, Miss Teen Trailer Park Trash from Jasper, Mississippi? IF you're going to allow women to be objectified, why not be fair about it?

[angry_chuck]

73. good stuff

could you get NASCAR on WET? sweet.

[blogslut]

96. How adorable!

1.) You go start that white male scholarship fund. Make sure you give it an honest name. No funny stuff like "The Non-Indiginous Heritage Fund". Be upfront. Call it the "White Male Scholarship Fund".

2.) You go start that White Entertainment Television Channel. No sneaky stuff. No calling it "Spike TV". Be upfront. Call it the "White Racial Purity Channel". And remember, all brown people and women must serve secondary support roles infront of the camera. Behind the camera, they can all be straight, white men, because as you must know, real life isn't like that at all!

3.) Are you calling me a bitch? How precious! Don't forget harpy, shrew, harridan and of course, everyone's favorite...the "c" word! Don't be shy. Own your seething rage!

4.) I had no idea I was in charge of all beauty pageants! Wow! Do I get to keep the crowns? Well, as the newly appointed ruler of all beauty pageants, I give you the opportunity to start your very own "Miss White America Pageant". Go. Now. You have lots of work to do. :)

[frustrated_lefty]

115. Oh, *snuggles* to you, too!

1) Honey, if I had the money, I'd be happy to put anyone into college if they cared to go. As it is, I'm strapped just planning for my own kids. If I had the money, I would start a "White Male Scholarship Fund," if I could think of something white males deserved (in my opinion) a chance at something over other races or genders. Maybe a "White Male Scholarship Justifying the Decline of Imperialism?"

2) Ok, but you be fair too, and call BET the "Black Racial Purity Channel." Or, explain the difference?

3) NO. That was neither what I said, nor what I intended. It strikes me as disengenuous for you to imply otherwise. If I came off that way, I apologize.

4) You dodged the point and you know it. :p

[951-Riverside]

30. I thought the KKK in orange county had a fund for white kids

Obviously I don't follow the white supremacy movement but they do have ALOT of programs, contests, pageants, concerts, etc for southern white fellows like yourself. ;)

[jaysunb]

45. STOP IT !

making sense, that is.....:rofl: sorry. I'm drunk

I'll never figure this line of "reasoning" if I live to be 105 !

[Jamastiene]

48. .

:rofl: So true. You nailed it.

[RagingInMiami]

120. So then how are you going to define "white"

Will Jews be included? Italian-Americans? You might be aware that some Hispanics have lighter skin white people.

What is your definition of a "white person"? Would this white person have to be Christian, but non-Catholic? Would this white person have to be heterosexual? What if it is revealed that this white person had a black grandfather?

[AlienGirl]

36. How would they define "white"? It's hardly a monolithic ethnicity

Are the Irish white? Currently most Americans would say they are, but in the 1800's they were not considered "white." How about Sicilians? Are they "white"? Are Jews "white"?

There already exist scholarships based on belonging to one or another sub-ethnicity of "white." Irish-American scholarships. German-American scholarships. Italian-American scholarships. And so on, as well as scholarships for left-handed people, poor kids, and C-average students.

Tucker

[blogslut]

38. Ask the OP

Those are his questions. :)

[AlienGirl]

43. Sorry, I was just sticking it in wherever...

:-) Speed of reply and all... ;-)

[blogslut]

44. no need for sorry

:)

[HardRocker05]

135. yes; statements of the utterly clueless. nt

[Blue-Jay]

23. You should be the poster child for "White History Month".

I think you're perfect, ya poor little whitey.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Morgana LaFey]

105. I thought it was completely relevent and not at all stupid

so what does that make me?

[Catherine Vincent]

24. Why are you so upset?

What makes you think people are asking you for anything?

[AlienGirl]

29. You are powerless not because you're white, but despite it.

The issue is not that extra goodies are distributed to white people (they aren't); the issue is that goodies are *not* distributed to non-white people. Not that you'll get a cookie for being white, but that Ayisha will be denied one because she's black.

The most important issue, though, is that 1% of the classroom has 99% of the cookies already! If we who don't have so many cookies had more cookies, we might not fight at all! And the people in charge just keep giving more and more cookies to that 1%.

This is a classic fallacy that plays to a certain sense of endangered power, and it is a deflection from the real issue--which is, why is economic power so unevenly distributed in pure capitalist systems? And what can be done to mitigate the tendency of the economically powerful to gain in power? In the absence of an outside force, money always moves from areas of low concentration to areas of high concentration.

Tucker

[pitohui]

39. this is a good post alien girl

as ever i envy your way w. words

[Sapphocrat]

67. I'm memorizing this one, Tucker.

"You are powerless not because you're white, but despite it."

A fine post. :thumbsup:

[Morgana LaFey]

106. The truth inherent in those wise words --

is this: that those truly in power want us NOT in power blaming each other rather than them for our economic and class woes and inequalities. Thus racism, sexism, even homophobia are very handy and effective tools of the Power Elites. Those labels and faux divisions create targeted scapegoats, people we're already somewhat prone to find unacceptable anyway, as The "Other."

This is a really important point, IMO.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

33. If you think the Northeast is "98 percent white", you need to wake up, homey.

[Warren DeMontague]

78. I know. That line nearly made me choke on my brie. Latte almost came out my nose.

Then I sat on my Volvo keys and almost forgot to bash some good god-fearing Christian values voters.

[BlooInBloo]

34. How much to cross the bridge?

[pitohui]

35. hey dude

i might know you indeed i suspect i do :-)

no one is saying you owe anything by dint of color of your skin or place of your birth however, at $65K you earn A LOT more than average person in this region and if you were of my gender, class, or place of birth as in "not born here" you could never hope to earn such an income

and we've had this discussion before

if you truly don't know that $65K per annum is unimagined wealth in north mississippi you need to get out more but you do know it, don't you, dude? you weren't told "this is the white route," nor was i, but if you weren't totally effin stupid (and you're not, are you) then you can read between the lines and catch a clue train

what you owe the rest of us is to support those of us who aren't white/male/free of any tiny little legal misdemeanor on our record an even chance

we don't want to pick your pocket

we just want an even chance, 'k?

[angry_chuck]

74. really

65k is a lot (Per capita money income 1999 - $21,587 - link). poor people only steal because they can't buy laws to negate the need to steal. rich people steal laws and money.

[JCMach1]

41. The veneer of racism covers-up the classism

in this country because we have bought into the myth of class mobility.

We have no such myths about race and an ugly past/reality to boot.

[bliss_eternal]

47. This hasn't been locked, yet...?

:rofl:

[951-Riverside]

49. No no no I want to see if he simply disappears or actually responds.

;D

[bliss_eternal]

50. LOL!

Should prove entertaining if nothing else. :)

[951-Riverside]

51. I rarely do this but...

:popcorn: :hi:

[DeSwiss]

52. My response....

Cprompt, the statement of your position in life and how you got there seems somewhat at odds to your query. You state that you "get it," and if that is true, then why would you need to ask the question: what do you owe?

I am black. I grew up poor in the projects of Cleveland Ohio. My family moved to Tennessee when I was 14 and I ran smack in the middle of the civil rights movement. And I unwittingly became part of it in 1965 by becoming one of 75 black students who integrated an all-white high school of 700 students. I was spat upon, beaten, threatened and disparaged even by some of the teachers albeit very subtly. So I could ask the same question as you: What did I owe to deserve this treatment?

Think of this scenario. Let's say that your personal history didn't happen the way you've recounted it, but that your family started by owning of a group of people whom were put to work taking care of the family-owners, as well as providing the labor for a family-owned business of growing cotton. Let's say this all started in 1619 when blacks were first brought to the New World at Jamestown, VA. And when you needed more "help" you simply bought more at a "People Auction." And if the cost of your help became a financial burden, your family simply "sold off some of its assets." Never mind that your family was breaking up another one. Business is business. Right?

Now, for several hundreds of years, your family took advantage of these arrangements, but later in 1865 it all ended with the Civil War. But that after that, your family and others like you suppressed the rights of your former slaves and made certain that they remained dependent upon you for their livelihood. This way you get to take advantage of their cheap labor without the responsibility of caring for them anymore. The best of both worlds, really. And it takes another 100 years before the former slaves rise up and say ENOUGH!!!

Now flash forward to 2006. Through all these centuries and with all the advantages of the one group and the disadvantages of the other, whose family is likely to be the most successful? Whose family will have accumulated assets to pass on to the next generation? Whose family will most likely be able to improve their lot in life through education? Whose family will most likely get that CEO job in a large corporation? Well, look at the facts as others have already shown, who are the highest paid and most powerful directors and controllers of wealth and political power in the US? White males.

So you see, it has little to do with you personally. Until there is a sea-change of attitude and action towards and in favor of equality and justice for everyone, then fingers will always be pointed at those based upon whom they represent. And in your case, you are still a white male no matter how difficult your upbringing was. Whatever the problems were that you encountered while growing up, it wasn't because of something over which you had no control. The color of your skin.

Technically, most scholarship funds do go to white people if for no other reason than numerical superiority. So there ARE white scholarship funds from that perspective. I agree with you that your scholarship should not have been withdrawn for the circumstances you mentioned. But what has that got to do with being white or black? Do you know of any cases where a black person had a similar situation and didn't lose their scholarship? If not, I fail to see the relevancy. And if it has happened, then it was still wrong. Pure and simple. But blacks have been "wronged" in so many ways for so long, all I can say is, "welcome to the club."

The reason there are black scholarship funds, Asian scholarship funds, Native American scholarship funds, women scholarship funds and even Pacific Islander scholarship funds, is because these groups have historically been discriminated against and denied scholarship funds not because they weren't deserving, but because the onus was to reward white males. Its that simple.

Such scholarship funds that you refer to are attempts to correct historical imbalances and dicriminatory practices that were created both culturally and in law. Created on purpose with the intent to suppress those for whom these mores and laws were designed against. These things cannot be expected to go away in a generation or two when they've been a part of the racially discriminatory behavior of this country for centuries. I'm sorry you've suffered, but believe me, many more have suffered right with you and in the end, you still had you color and sex as an advantage.

So in answer to your question, here's what you owe:

In the end, what we all owe is honesty with one another. We owe a debt to truth and justice. We owe a debt to stand up for what is right. And we owe a debt to history and to the righting of past wrongs. And if that means you make a sacrifice now to accomplish this, then this is the price you owe. And when that day is reached where there is no more discrimination, when anyone can get that scholarship based purely on merit, when anyone can get that CEO's job or become a black senator from Tennesse, or president of the US irrespective of race of sex, then I say that the debt will have been paid.

[Jamastiene]

53. Best.Response.Yet.

Very well said. :thumbsup:

[Catherine Vincent]

54. Damn that was an awesome response.

:thumbsup:


I'm going to bed now. My Yams are done. :)

Nite all!

[Minnesota_Lib]

57. I wish I could nominate a response for the greatest page.

[Hav]

61. .

Fantastic post, thank you.
You made your great points without ridiculing the other side :thumbsup:.

I think even if the poster of this thread might not agree with everything, he will see the truth behind most of the arguments and appreciate both your honesty and the respectful manner in which you replied.

[Chulanowa]

75. Good response, but there is a "but"

It seems to me that the issue is not so much one of race as it is class. I know there's no shortage of whites who have the same modern difficulties as blacks. If race is the cause and whites are favored, where do these folks come from?

The white example in your post are the sort of people who decided to screw over my ancestors immediately after it got harder to screw yours over. The Klan didn't start out hating blacks, but instead hating the "carpetbaggers and Catholics" - namely, folks like my Irish ancestors who snuck south from Kentucky during Reconstruction. Sharecropping was just slavery where food was called "wages" and enslavement was called "debt", and it snared its share of whites - again, those white ancestors of mine were among them. While there's no arguing that they were not stolen from their homes and forced to endure the indignities of African slaves, the conditions they underwent are obviously carried into the present day, just as they are with your own family.

There's not a lot of difference between the Cleveland projects and the "white trash neighborhoods" of the far south, when you get to it. Violence, drugs, poverty, illness, depression, they're rampant in both places, regardless of skin color. The same can be said of the barrios in East LA, the Black Hills reservation, all sorts of places. What it boils down to isn't "(Insert skin color) people are getting screwed by (insert different skin color) people!", it's a matter of the rich screwing the poor.

The system is the same - the haves own and abuse the have nots. Skin color is just the excuse the haves give themselves for their abuses. Are there more rich whites? Yes, undoubtedly. Is it because of their whiteness? Maybe. Maybe though, more rich people are white, because there's more white people. Wealthy blacks don't seem to be in a big hurry to improve living conditions in the ghetto, or to stop exploiting poor blacks. You think Sean Combs gives a damn about what happens in your old neighborhood in Cleveland? So long as they buy his albums, he doesn't. Same goes for Toby Keith and my old neighborhood in Theodore, Alabama - so long as the rednecks keep buying records instead of trying to put hteir kids through school, he's content.

And regarding the OP's point about Mississippi. I've been there. I've lived there, I've worked there. Missisippi deserves every ounce of the crap it gets. When Alabama, Arkansas, and Louisianna use you as the butt of their jokes, you're doing something wrong :)

[DeSwiss]

114. Chulanowa, I agree...

I think you've hit the point dead-on regarding this being more an issue of class. The example I used of my own experiences, were intended to address the issues of color, since this was apparently the focus or backdrop to Cprompt's original query. And while we all largely connect with each other's world view anecdotally, using my own experience was an attempt to place Cprompt's experience in contrast with my own. Some of the best lessons I've learned in my 54 years have been that way.

You're right of course about the KKK and their initial focus on Carpetbaggers and northerners coming into the south to salvage the in the debris left from the war. But their focus soon changed with the passage of the 14th Amendment and the subsequent involvement of blacks into politics. Yet socio-economic class has always been the principle divide within the country. Initially in the formation of the country, only landowners could vote under the law. So blacks, particularly at this time, had both class and race working against them. But even poor whites of Scottish and Irish descent were above blacks in the social pecking order. And you'll recall during the war and after, of the riots in New York when freed blacks came North for work and were beaten and lynched by these same poor white immigrants. And for more than 75 years after Reconstruction, blacks were terrorized, and lynched all over this great land. In almost every state. And not all of them in the south.

The hypothetical scenario I used was intended to simply be one perspective. Although it is problematic using such a device while also avoiding taking parts of it's example literally. Obviously there is a larger truth to it, and yet those who actually committed these "acts of human ownership" were much fewer in number than the general population. But the system of slavery benefited almost everyone to some extent. So even those who did not personally own slaves nor participate in it, nor support it, -- their lives were impacted by it nonetheless.

And I suppose that's the larger point to take away from all this. To understand some issues, I believe that sometimes you must leap outside yourself and your own experience and try to imagine your world through the eyes of others. And not as another poster put it earlier, believe that we "owe nothing to anyone." We owe something to everyone if we are to ever live in peace. And again you're right, today's problems are largely due to "the rich screwing the poor." But until those poor and those who support their efforts can come to together in acceptance of each other, then the tactic most often employed by the rich -- divide and conquer -- will continue to be the wedge that drives us from the goals we seek towards equality and justice.

That is why I say that if nothing more we owe each other respect first. Accepting the right of the other to exist how they choose. I believe that its when we feel we have absolutely no obligation to others that is when we begin to have problems. Because such a perspective allows others to be minimized. It reduces their humanity as something less than one's own. Its precisely what is being done to gays and lesbians now by the Religious RightwingNuts. And its all been done before.

But I hardly see myself as a victim. More a of survivor. Like Cprompt is. Besides, my own world view won't allow me to see myself any other way. Yet, we cannot escape the facts of history. And those facts would more appropriately serve us, not as a reminder so much of our deficiencies, but rather as a touching point for each one of us so that we can avoid repeating the mistakes of the past. Everyone, including myself, owe that much. We all fight our own self-made demons. For most blacks, at least for myself anyway, its a question of trust. But to believe otherwise is to believe that none of this can ever get any better. And if that's the case, then what would be the point?

[bunyip]

149. Thank you for your post, DeSwiss

The discussion between yourself and Chulanowa has been insightful. Your final paragraph is quite thought-provoking.

I would like to clarify one minor point - But the system of slavery benefited almost everyone to some extent.

It should be understood that slavery, like the present war in Iraq, enriched the very few at the cost of vast harm to the great many.

Even where slaves are a minority of the workforce, the availability of slave labor leads directly to very low wages for free labor, because no employer will hire for more than the cost of a slave's maintenance. There were, of course, a limited number of jobs where slave labor couldn't be used, but the majority of poor whites were in (un-winnable) economic competition with slave labor.

Furthermore, slaves have no purchasing power, and so in a market economy slavery depresses sale prices for consumer goods, and thus incomes for small businesspeople.

In return for economic deprivation, most whites gained only the psychological feeling of superiority, and defenseless targets for their violent anger and frustration. And for a long time, that was enough.

I suppose that's the larger point to take away from all this. To understand some issues, I believe that sometimes you must leap outside yourself and your own experience and try to imagine your world through the eyes of others. And not as another poster put it earlier, believe that we "owe nothing to anyone." We owe something to everyone if we are to ever live in peace. And again you're right, today's problems are largely due to "the rich screwing the poor." But until those poor and those who support their efforts can come to together in acceptance of each other, then the tactic most often employed by the rich -- divide and conquer -- will continue to be the wedge that drives us from the goals we seek toward equality and justice.

[DeSwiss]

161. And thank you for your comments bunyip....

In regard to the point I was trying to make when I said the "system of slavery benefited almost everyone to some extent;" what I was referring to was the trade advantages that were realized for the country as a whole. With unpaid labor, the US produced cotton at a much cheaper cost than European countries (primarily the English, French and the Dutch with colonies in India, Southeast Asia and Africa). And that cotton was later manufactured into products in many northern factories and sold in European markets, and thus providing jobs for many whites. And the income they earned did in fact boost the national economy -- at least for a time.

This economic model worked best primarily pre-steam engine and before the invention of the cotton gin. With the development of steam-powered engines and as the mechanization of farming cotton grew, the need for slave labor diminished substantially. There are many historians who believe slavery would have ended eventually of its own accord as a result. I'm not so sure that's true -- when you do something for 246 years, its hard to break the habit.

One other point I try to remember. For all of the recorded history of "civilization," slavery has been the norm. If your side lost in a war, chances were most likely that you and your family became someone else's "spoil." And its daunting to think that this ownership of others went on for well over 12,000 years (most likely much, much longer), and that Abraham Lincoln's proclamation was the first time in humanity's history that a nation said slavery would no longer be allowed. From that perspective, it reminds me that we've enslaved each other much longer than believing in the ideals of individual freedom. So I figure its going to take a while yet for many to "evolve" to this point in order to get the hang of this freedom thing.....

[shanti]

170. awesome

you hit the nail on the head. ;)

[nam78_two]

186. I would have nominated this response for greatest page if I could

:)

[alittlelark]

56. Montgomery AL - father at the Air War College.

I have never lived in a worse place in my life.


Sis and I (16+17) got our own place after living there for 6 months. Hated Dad for months for dropping us there.


It was sooo far beyond ugly - a friends mom told us where to go.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ima_sinnic]

72. "Liberal Democrats were thrown out" because they "blame whitey"?

Nice of you to drop by to make such an "insightful" comment.
I predict your stay won't be very long.

[Sapphocrat]

59. I'll tell you what you, personally, owe.

First, you need to stop believing that your responsibility in this world begins and ends with paying taxes, being a good citizen, and raising a good child. Those are all fine accomplishments, but you don't get any medals just for doing what you should be doing in the first place.

If you think that's all you owe anybody -- and not as a white southern male, but just as a human being -- then what possible reason have you for even asking what you owe? Guilt? Defensiveness? Resentment over what you perceive as "reverse discrimination"?

What you owe this world is to get outside yourself, and over yourself -- and stop looking at yourself as the poor, shat-upon "white southern male" who never did anything to hurt anybody, and start seeing yourself as a member of the human race. Then maybe you'll stop asking questions like "what do I, or any of the evil 'white male majority' from the South owe you" -- as if anyone who's not "you" is of a different species.

Until you can do that, there's no beginning to explain why you owe anybody anything.

On edit: Typo

[frustrated_lefty]

62. Message to the island of Lesbos:

Many caucasian males from the South perform their civic duties as decent human beings. Why ask what you owe? I think their is an inherent belief in the South that the sins of the father fall upon the head of the son. Penance is on the head of every white male in the South, and many of us know it.

We ARE a different species, because you and your kind make us so. Stop acting like you don't. The responsible ones among us will continue to try and repair the damage our forefathers did, and maybe, one day, you'll start to judge us as individuals and not some Jungian archetypal demon from hell.

[Jamastiene]

64. I think you have that backward.

WE are the ones who are treated like a different species. Last time I checked, straight white males in the south had no problems gaining access to simple, basic equal rights. It's the rest of us who have to beg and plead to be treated as human beings.

You are right that many white males from the south are decent people, but don't say that lesbians treat white males from the south as the subordinate species. It's the other way around in most cases.

[frustrated_lefty]

126. I've done more harm in this thread than good.

Just shutting up now, but apologize for any offense you may have taken. Yes, the deck is stacked against minorities, homosexuals and women in the South and that sucks and is reprehensible.

[Sapphocrat]

65. Thanks for proving my point.

You're the one laboring under this "sins of the father" complex -- I didn't put it on your head, and I don't see all Southern white men as "some Jungian archetypal demon from hell," but obviously you have some stake in identifying that way. Whatever floats your boat.

The funny thing is, I wasn't even talking specifically about the black-white issue, which I believe is only a symptom of a greater problem for the OP: of being detached from the world -- but it's obvious all that went right past you.

I don't give a damn about your forefathers or anyone else's in the context of my response to the OP, who asked what HE, PERSONALLY owed anyone. Your guilt, or resentment, or whatever's eating you is, is of your making.

I should be stunned that you would use my gayness to dismiss me -- where did my being gay even enter into it? -- but again, you only proved my point.

"Message to the island of Lesbos"? "Me and my kind"? I'm not the one making us out to be different species, pal.

[frustrated_lefty]

123. Whoa....ok, I will bow out here.

There is so much miscommunication here, there's no way to work forward.

Your gayness entered the picture with your choice of a screen name. It's something important enough to you for you to have it in the face of your company, right? I was not trying to dismiss you, I was attempting to engage you in discourse.

What I was trying to say and what you heard were two very different things and, although I'll try, if that can't be clairified between the two of us, please accept my apologies for any offense given.

[foreigncorrespondent]

146. Excuse me?

But you brought her sexuality into this because of her screen name? Oh give me a fucking break!

Her sexuality has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, and you are grasping at straws because you have been jumped on.

[Maven]

188. "in the face of your company?"

WTF?

[foreigncorrespondent]

66. Well if you are...

...going to profile people like you have, shall I make you out to be a racist, bigoted, inbred, homophobic son of a bitch?

You truly are incredible. You are lumbering a lot of people into that "you and your kind" bullshit.

When I first visited the U.S. I spent some time down south. The experience I had down south was much to be desired. Would you like me to lumber you into the above mentioned group, because of the treatment I received from a minority?

So how about you begin by judging people as individuals rather than how you have? Message to the island of Lesbos indeed. How fucking insulting.

Grow up!

[Bluebear]

84. "Message to the island of Lesbos"??

Your screen name says you are "frustrated". Did a woman dump you for another woman in your past? Just wondering.

[frustrated_lefty]

116. Did it occur to you, I was replying to someone who has taken

the name "Sapphocrat?" As in Sappho, of Lesbos? Lesbos, the island from which the word "lesbian" is derived? Before you give me more crap, why not ask Sapphocrat why she chose the name?

[foreigncorrespondent]

147. Jesus...

...give it a rest buddy, you are digging yourself into a deeper hole. Her name has NOTHING to do with this thread.

[Sapphocrat]

181. We've already talked about this in PM's, but...

Let me put it this way:

If you were discussing baseball with a DUer called EbonyGoddess, and you disagreed about the merits of pinch hitters, would indicate your disagreement by titling a reply "Message to Africa," or use the phrase "you and your kind"?

'Nuff said.

[libnnc]

108. Oh goody. Another dipstick I can add to my ignore list!

"Island of Lesbos"...how pathetic.


Poor pitiful little man. :nopity:

[frustrated_lefty]

131. For having knowledge of history?

Wtf? Why do all of you responding act like their is something wrong with lesbianism?

History lesson: Sappho was the High Priestess of Lesbos way back in the days of Athens and Sparta.

[foreigncorrespondent]

148. Why?

Why do all of you responding act like their is something wrong with lesbianism?


Because you have done it in a very insulting way. Hence a knock against lesbians.

Understand Sapphs name has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, period! Yet you chose to bring it up. Having a knowledge of something doesn't mean you bring it up when it isn't warranted.

[EST]

82. Youu've spent some time thinking about this, haven't you?

[Sapphocrat]

83. My entire life.

Making myself part of something bigger and doing what I can for the good of the whole is what I strive to live by. I don't always do a good job of it, but I do try.

Why do you ask?

[EST]

85. Probably as much wry comment as question.

Your clarity of thought is unusual and to be admired.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NashVegas]

101. Sorry, But I Agree With Him on That First Point

I grew up in one of the towns he's referring to, in the 1960s/1970s. Two black children in my grade school, population 200. One black kid in jr high, population 450. Two in HS, 800-1000. Of those two, one was about as white as you could get without changing skin color. The other, he didn't seem like he had too many friends.

If it seemed like racism didn't exist, it's because no one was forced to confront it.

Meanwhile, in Boston, a black man was impaled with a flag.

20 years later, NYers were forced to confront a little something-something by Tawana Brawley, only to find out it was a scam and people had had to wring their hands over nothing. And there are people who still bring up that name whenever someone tries to say something nice about Al Sharpton.

Down here you know right away if someone has a chip on their shoulder. Up north? It took 15 years to found out how my best friend truly felt about minorities. In the mid-size cities where there is more of a black population, there is so much distrust - on both sides - it's heartbreaking.

[Jamastiene]

68. Well, first off, you can quit copping that attitude.

That attitude really stinks. If you want to know what you owe me personally, drop that attitude and we may begin to talk.

[foreigncorrespondent]

69. Would you really like me to answer this?

Secondly, how have I, or anyone like me in the "white male majority" oppressed you or anyone for that matter? What did I do to hold you down from acheiving your goals in life?

Seriously you won't like to hear what I would have to say.

Secondly, drop the fucking victim mentality, then you might actually begin to the see the world in a different light. Seriously dude, I had a rotten childhood filled with molestation, and I don't have a victim mentality like you.

[treestar]

71. Don't take it personally

It's not about you. It's about society. You've had advantages other people haven't had. Being a white male secures that. Just recognizing yo'ure lucky and trying to treat otehrs as you would have them treat you would be enough.

[Warren DeMontague]

76. What do you owe? More flamebait threads like this 'un.

Primo Stuff, man.

Here's a question: If all anyone here does is bash or "knock down" white people, men, southerners and the troops, why do you stay?

Oh, and by the way: Yeah. There's no African Americans in the Midwest. Like.... Chicago. Nope! Never saw any of those strange, unfathomable black people when I was growing up there, nosiree. :eyes:

[DarkTirade]

77. A lot of people seem to forget that majority and people in power aren't always the same.

I too am someone with white skin (although being a quarter jewish and part native american... I think it's a quarter there too but since pretty much everybody on my dad's side who I could ask is either dead or out of contact with me, I don't know for sure.) who grew up without much and I'm currently trying to do the whole work, get an education, better my life, ect. thing. I haven't had anything handed to me. (well, except a secondhand car that used to be my brother's... and I didn't even get that until I was 22. And I live in an area where it is IMPOSSIBLE to exist without a car.)
I don't take it personally when people complain about a 'white male' majority because I'm not part of that problem that they are complaining about. I know it, and hopefully they do too. Yes, it's annoying for me, as someone equally as poor as any black man trying to get a scholarship to see scholarships that are for blacks only. And yes, I do think that's wrong. The basis should be need and drive, not skin color.

[Morgana LaFey]

113. I hate to break it to you, but

I don't take it personally when people complain about a 'white male' majority because I'm not part of that problem that they are complaining about.

That's only partly true, actually. Probably mostly true from a purely and current economic standpoint, but there's much more to it than that. Have you ever heard the term White Male Privilege?


Try this article on for size:
White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack
I was taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group

by Peggy McIntosh

September 2002

(snip)

I think whites are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege, as males are taught not to recognize male privilege. So I have begun in an untutored way to ask what it is like to have white privilege. This paper is a partial record of my personal observations and not a scholarly analysis. It is based on my daily experiences within my particular circumstances.

I have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was "meant" to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, assurances, tools, maps, guides, codebooks, passports, visas, clothes, compass, emergency gear, and blank checks.

Since I have had trouble facing white privilege, and describing its results in my life, I saw parallels here with men's reluctance to acknowledge male privilege. Only rarely will a man go beyond acknowledging that women are disadvantaged to acknowledging that men have unearned advantage, or that unearned privilege has not been good for men's development as human beings, or for society's development, or that privilege systems might ever be challenged and changed.

http://www.lilithgallery.com/feminist/modern/White-Male-Privilege.html

[DarkTirade]

145. First off all I said is that I am not part of the problem.

That has nothing to do with whether or not I was born with some privilege. Second of all, I think it's fairly safe for me to say that in my life, I have recieved absolutely no advantages because of my gender or skin color. I have been targeted by police because of my age and hair length. My chosen major in college was one dominated mainly by women. Despite having a very high SAT score, the only reason I got into college was because of hard work and my skills. The person who pushed hard enough to get me in had no clue whether I was white or not and didn't care about my sex.
Even in my current job, which is a manual labor job, there are women working there. If they don't posess the physical strength needed to do the job, the company will find a less strenuous position for them. Hell, my last supervisor there was a woman. And even though I don't know the exact numbers, I'd guess that both the hourly and supervisor positions there are split pretty equally between white, hispanic and black. Not many asians working there, but then again, there aren't that many asians in this area.
Third of all... you don't know me. You have no right to tell me what's going on in MY life. My skin is light. I was born with a penis. That's all you know about me. That is what I am. That is how I was born. That does not define my entire life. My actions, and the people I surround myself with define me.

[Morgana LaFey]

152. Okay

Unfortunately, your anger and defensiveness don't change the facts. If you're male, if you're white (or mostly white), you DO enjoy privilege that others in this society do not, whether you're aware of it or not.

It may or may not be true that in your case you have benefitted far less than others, but you have benefitted nonetheless. It would behoove you to actually read the article, with an open mind.

[DarkTirade]

183. Yeah, I'm looking down that list.

And just about every single thing there either does not apply to me in some way or another, is completely ridiculous, or completely false. At least in my life. And EVERYONE is at a disadvantage as far as some of those 'privileges' go at some point in their life, either because of very old or young age or style or who they are surrounded with at the time or just about any combination of factors.
In every society there are niches for groups of people. Inside those niches the people who fit in best get better privilege. Outside of them they don't. If someone with my skin color walked through a 'black' neighborhood, he or she would not fit in. This person would get suspicious looks. Cops would probably single THEM out in this area as being possible drug dealers. There are things that women are perfectly able to get away with that men are not and vice versa. Yes, the people in power right now are white males. For those of us who are nowhere near the top (or even the middle) of the power scheme, it really doesn't affect us in any way shape or form.
I don't flaunt any minuscule privileges I may have, but next time you see a woman get angry and slap a man, just ask yourself. Would the reaction be the same if it was the other way around?
Hell no. And you know what? I've got no problem with that. Because that's life. Nobody is "equal". Doing our best to level the playing field may be best overall, but there is no way to make everything perfect and happy and make everyone the same. Right now, I have absolutely no power. Because of my age and appearance, cops are just as suspicious of me as they are of any person of color. The area I live in is a big melting pot, there is no one dominant power here. When I ask for a manager, I don't know what sex or color this person will be. There may be some snooty areas nearby where people of color wouldn't be welcome... but I sure as hell wouldn't be either. I'd guess that at least a third of this list has more to do with class than race. And another third that has to do with race can be turned around, even if it isn't done so as often in america. Can you honestly say you've never heard someone being dismissed as being 'white trash' because of a few characteristics that seemed to fit that profile? Have you never heard someone dismiss a man's bad behavior by saying, "He's a man, what did you expect?"
Y'know, I'm looking at this list... only one that I can honestly say applies to me, and isn't contradicted by some other factor in my life, is the fact that I can buy bandaids in my skin tone.
And I don't really consider that to be a 'privilege'. That's just a lucky coincidence if I have any wounds I need to hide.
And lastly... NONE of this explains why you felt the need to bring up 'white male privilege' and try to throw it in my face when all I said was that I am not part of the problem. That has absolutely nothing to do with any 'white male privilege', that is a simple statement of fact. I am not part of the problem. I am not some faceless 'oppressor'. I do not hold down other people because they are different than I. Everyone is different than I am in some ways, and I learned that at a VERY early age. If I ever experienced any kind of unfairness, even when it was in my favor, I have pointed it out and tried to change it. I was born at the bottom of the totem pole and have yet to rise any farther than that. And for the record: my skin color and sex have neither helped nor hurt in that respect. If I lived in an area that had severe color/class divisions maybe a few of those things in the list might have applied. Or if I was raised to be a typical 'white collar guy'. But that isn't the case. As I said before: you don't know me. You don't know my life. What is true for some, even for many, is not going to be true for all. And if you can't handle that concept then YOU are the one who is lacking in the open mind department. And just because I may share a few genetic traits with people who are in power does not in ANY way, shape or form mean that I also have any kind of similar power.

[xchrom]

79. wow -- this is some serious flame bait.

a prime example of willfull ignorance that passes for intellectual.

your questions aren't serious -- and you already know the answers -- and yet you want to present this sad sack mythology as though it deserves merit.

you feel denied because you are white?

you feel as though something is being kept from you -- or being organized against you because of your white maleness?

when across the WHOLE SPECTRUM of america -- up and down -- sideways and back -- examples of your enitilement and the success of that entitlement is self evidently obvious?

you present a prime example of some of conservatives best thinkers war on common sense -- you take the obvious -- say it isn't so -- and then say that groups x, y and z are in fact beating you down.

[wellst0nev0ter]

80. Yeah, Don't Minorities Have To Be GETTING The Scholarships First?

Financial aid falls short for minority, low-income college students

Updated 11/21/2006 7:46 AM ET

By Mary Beth Marklein, USA TODAY

The nation's top public universities "are becoming disproportionately whiter and richer," says a new report that looks at enrollment and graduation rates at 50 public flagship universities.

The report argues that financial aid practices at those and similar institutions create barriers for low-income and minority students.

"The flagships occupy a special place in cultivating the next generation of leaders in their states," says Kati Haycock, director of the non-profit Education Trust and a co-author of the report, released Monday. "With their special status comes a special responsibility to combine excellence with equity."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-11-20-financial-aid_x.htm

And to all those clamoring for class-based affirmative action, will a school be "diverse" if it enrolled 100 poor whites and three poor blacks? No? Then rethink that "solution".

[skipos]

98. So you are saying the ratio of poor whites to poor blacks is 100:3?

Any links to back that up?

[wellst0nev0ter]

154. No, I obviously pulled those numbers out of the air

the actual ratio is like 2 to 1. Would that be diverse enough for you?

[zanne]

81. $1.68

[rug]

86. It is not southern, it is not white, it is not male. The only word that matters is rich.

It is class.

The only question is what does the ruling class owe.

Everything else is commentary.

[Jose Diablo]

88. Great post

don't pay too much attention to post counts of responders, I've seen posters rack-up 1000s of posts in the lounge in a matter of months talking about their cats and how cute and cuddly the moocher is. Post count means nothing.

I am going to jump to a conclusion and say your post was about "reparations". This topic comes-up from time to time. Generally by someone looking to gain a following of those primarily interested in getting something for nothing, it's common thing among those from an average background. I think though that although the world is not fair, never has been, at least it is possible to be successful and we do have reasons to be happy we can be successful. I don't think you owe anyone, anything. Other than what we as humans owe each other to be part of the "human family". Although there will always be people around that will say you do, just because you are a white southern male. I think it comes from the Dixiecrats telling the Democratic party to pack sand when they jumped ship and joined the Republicans and put old prune face in the WH. Not that any of us here are actually Dixiecrats.


"No one knows what it's like, To be the bad man, To be the sad man, Behind blue eyes.
No one knows what it's like. To be hated, To be fated, To telling only lies.
But my dreams, They aren't as empty, As my conscience seems to be.
I have hours, only lonely, My love is vengeance, That's never free.

No one knows what it's like, To feel these feelings, Like I do, And I blame you.
No one bites back as hard, On their anger, None of my pain and woe, Can show through.
But my dreams, They aren't as empty, As my conscience seems to be.
I have hours, only lonely, My love is vengeance, That's never free.

When my fist clenches, crack it open, Before I use it and lose my cool.
When I smile, tell me some bad news, Before I laugh and act like a fool.
If I swallow anything evil, Put your finger down my throat.
If I shiver, please give me a blanket, Keep me warm, Let me wear your coat.

No one knows what it's like, To be the bad man, To be the sad man, Behind blue eyes."

[emanymton]

89. Welcome To DU. .. Off The Top Of My Head,

the answer is nothing, nothing more than any persons owes to life and society. Give more than one takes and leave the world better than one finds it, are always two goals that can help one make it through.

[eggbeater]

90. You are asking the right questions

A recently lost partner in my life would have simply said that you owe:
Compassion
understanding
Maybe a handshake, or a smile.
Maybe actually giving that human on the corner asking for help a couple of dollars so he can eat.

In reality, there is no written law as to your owing anything to anyone except your creditors.

The quality of life is not determined by ones wealth, instead, it is determined by the dignity that you live your life with. That my friend is what people will remember you by.

success is not a bad thing at all, and there is nothing to feel guilty about by gaining sucess.

Just always remember that everytime you sit down to a nice home cooked meal with your family, there are thousands of people crying because they can not care for their children in the same way.

My late husband always told me.
If you base your success on the number in your bank account you will be far more lonely than if you base it on the number of true friends.

even the "bums" knew they were welcome in our home.

stripped of posessions we all become equal in our needs.

Ellen

[RagingInMiami]

122. Words like that

Will ensure that the spirit of Eggbeater remains alive on DU.

[H2O Man]

91. I'd like a dollar. n/t

[leftofthedial]

92. Listen, cracker ass , , ,

Spare us the phony white male victim bullshit. You're probably a Limbaugh fan. It's easy for you to sit there all smug and content with a salary that a woman would get only 65% of to do the same job, while your "little woman" is a virtual slave, imprisoned back at the plantation raising your privileged little white kid and cooking and cleaning for your worthless white breeder ass, while you're out ruling the world with all your white male cronies. Meanwhile, an African-American male is 240 times more likely to end up in prison than in college--and it's ALL YOUR FAULT! If you were gay, there might be some hope for you, but as a straight, white southern male over 30, you obviously DON'T GET IT and you never will.

Or so I've been told for expressing sentiments similar to yours.

(I hope you got the :sarcasm: in that first paragraph.)

I know how you feel. There are superficial thinkers here who apparently believe that race and gender are the primary determinants of oppression in America, when in fact wealth and the capitalist system are the enemies of the masses. We are in a class war. Not a race war, not a gender war and not a culture war. A class war. And we are losing. Big time. You are fortunate to still enjoy the lingering benefits of the American middle class. Soon, you and others in your situation will be an anachronism.

So sorry, dude. You were born with three strikes against you. White. Male. Southern. All whiteys are racists. All males are sexist. All southerners are stupid. Your opinions, especially on matters of race and gender, will be routinely discounted. Certain posters here will always ignore what you actually say, will substitute their own hate-fueled, spittle-flecked stereotypical rants and then, pitchfork and torch in hand, they'll set out to bludgeon you with them, secure in the knowledge that the mob behind them, who hate men and hate whitey just as much as they do, will back them up.

What you "owe" is primarily what you said yourself. Live a good life, raise a good kid. Keep in mind that there is racism and there is gender discrimination and that, as you said, it works both ways. Fight it wherever you find it.

Thank you for your post.

[Snotcicles]

95. read 93

[cprompt]

118. thanks

very well put post.

[gollygee]

100. Oh for god's sake

You don't *personally* owe diddly. Our country as a whole owes a great deal. Our country as a whole needs to make sure that the descendants of the people on whose backs our nation was built are able to have the same opportunities the rest of us have.

[NashVegas]

104. What You Owe?

You owe it to yourself to look around and see how things actually run.

Now that your circumstances have changed enough to get you within stone-throwing distance of the Good Old Boys Club (which, as a Southernor, you know isn't 100% determined by income alone), you're going to be in near-view to see what having a few particular social graces can do for your future career and earnings.

Once you've figured out how that works, maybe you'll notice how in the poorer neighborhoods those graces don't exist; people are too busy trying to keep a roof over their heads, too busy trying to keep food on their tables, and too easily distracted by the signals our mass-consumer-driven culture uses to brain-wash us all with, to even begin to see the way out.

In short, you owe it to yourself to observe and learn how the people who hold power - generally, white males - control how other people are or are not able to gain access to power.

[noamnety]

107. "Miss White America"

In looking at this thread again, I'm struck by this.

I'm trying to figure out what to say to a white male who claims he's been discriminated against because he hasn't been given a chance to line white women up in bikinis and score them on their fuckability quotient.

Any suggestions?

[cprompt]

121. is that

all you are taking away from the entire post?

[noamnety]

134. Not at all!

I am also taking away your sense of extreme entitlement - which is causing you to be OUTRAGED that it took you 8 whole years to achieve a standard of living that most people will never achieve in their lifetime.

And I am taking away your inability to process the idea that many people will never receive the OPPORTUNITIES you received. That was alluded to in an earlier post, but I'll say it here again. Anything you received may not have been "because" you were white. But for many black people, the opportunities would not have been open to them. I've talked to veterans who have master's degrees in accounting - people who have done all the right things, serving their country, going to school, dressing conservatively, all that, and they can't get a break. They show up for a job interview and - oops - they are black. So they spend 20 years, not 8, working at $7 or $8 dollars an hour, NEVER getting ahead, despite working every bit as hard - actually harder - than you.

I am taking away your unbelievable nerve in trying to claim you're the victim of racism in any way whatsoever. Get a clue. Racism is not "someone hurt my feelings by implying I owed them something." Being a victim of racism is being shot at because you're trying to evacuate a city that you've been ordered to evacuate. It's watching police stand on a bridge with rifles trained at you because they'd rather shoot you than have a poor black US citizen who's lost everything in a disaster show up in their town. It's listening to people talk about the good old days when they could hang you from a tree. It's not being able to even get an interview for a job because your name doesn't sound "white" enough. It's being locked up for years because you broke into a store to get food so your family could survive during a flood, while white criminals who steal millions of dollars from their employees don't spend any time in jail, because "it would be inconvenient for their family at this time" or "unfair to their small children to be deprived of a father." It's watching while your family members are floating face down in the flood waters, day after day on tv, while the government doesn't care enough to even pick up the body - and then watching them claim the entire world changed after 9/11 - because primarily well off white people were killed.

-----------------
In 2000, the U.S. Census Bureau's Current Population Survey found that blacks were nearly twice as likely as whites to be without health insurance.

About one in six blacks -- 17 percent -- have completed college, compared with 28 percent of all whites. And 88 percent of all whites are high school graduates, compared with 79 percent of all blacks 25 years old or older.

A third of all whites hold professional or managerial jobs, compared to slightly more than one-fifth of all blacks, according to census data.

Blacks are about twice as likely as whites -- 23 versus 12 percent -- to hold lower-paying, less prestigious service jobs. Blacks also are more than twice as likely to be unemployed; in May, the jobless rate for blacks stood at 8 percent, compared with 3.8 percent among whites.

The median household income for whites was $44,366 in 1999, compared with $27,910 for blacks. Fewer than three in 10 whites earn less than $25,000; nearly half of all blacks in 1999 earned less than that. And the poverty rate for African Americans is more than double the white rate.

Blacks were twice as likely to have reported having difficulties recently paying their rent or mortgage and about half as likely as whites to have money invested in stocks, bonds or mutual funds, according to the Post/Kaiser/Harvard poll.

Three in 10 whites -- 31 percent -- believe that the average black fared as well or better than whites in each of the four areas tested.

The survey found that less well-educated and lower-income whites -- groups most likely to be competing directly with blacks -- were significantly more likely to be misinformed about black circumstances. These pressures could breed resentment among whites, particularly toward any actions that would seem to provide additional and undeserved benefits to blacks.

http://www.cir-usa.org/articles/177.html

I am taking away that you feel it's unjust that there aren't any special programs targetted solely to white men as a class to give them extra advantages in a society where they already have better access as a class to health care, jobs, and education.

[CitizenLeft]

156. thank you for posting those statistics

Even though I instinctively "know" the reality behind those stats, it's shocking to see them in black and white (no pun intended at all). What's even more shocking is the number of people who are denial about them.

I'm a African-American woman - those in the black community live with that reality day in and day out, no matter where their current lifestyle falls on the economic scale - because we all know somebody who is struggling to make it, somewhere.

[Bluebear]

111. Miss America: "Contestants must be of good health and of the white race."

Rule 7, Miss America pageant.

First black contestant? 1970. Decades and decades after the pageant started and Rule 7 was abolished.

Just a little history lesson for when you whine that there is no "Miss White America" contest.

[KingFlorez]

112. Interesting, very interesting

"What's wrong with a white scholarship fund? If we are truly seeking "equality" what's the problem with it? Equality doesn't mean reverse discrimination. Equality means if you can do it so can I. What's wrong with White Entertainment Television? The United White College Fund? Miss White America? And don't say these already exist b/c it's not the same."

The only reason blacks or any other minority established their own scholarships and networks because white people excluded minorities from theirs. As far as I'm concerned, there is a White Entertainment Television, it's every channel because most people on television are white. Most people who get scholarships are white and most women who win Miss America are white. The truth of it is, majority rules. As for what you owe, you don't owe anyone a darn thing, none of us want anything from you. You come here and play this victim act using a warped sense of how the world is.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cprompt]

119. let me clarify

YOUTH football is what I love. The kids 6-12 years old playing for the fun of the game. It's a great game that teaches a lot about team work and working with others to accomplish a similar goal. Every kid on the field has an individual job that they must perform or the whole group suffers. They take pride in that if you set it up right.

[Name removed]

179. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jed Dilligan]

191. Touchy, touchy.

We all have our prejudices. At least I'm honest about mine.

[Marr]

124. This is what Limbaugh tapped into.

I had a very similar experience to the original poster. I was overworked and unhappy. Sixty-hour weeks for years on end. People in that situation sense they're being cheated, because they quite clearly *are* being cheated. They're angry.

Limbaugh (and his emulators) tapped into the anger and gave them someone to blame. Conservatives never talk about the people who are actually cheating guys like the original poster, screwing the labor market so bad that he has to work two jobs just to have the standard of living that his parents came by easily. That can't be discussed. Instead, they talk about minorities. Gays. Liberals.

You don't owe anything more than to raise your children well and pay your taxes. Nobody here is out to get you. It's your government and their buddies on Wall Street that are fucking you, sir.

[eleny]

125. Spot on

I came to post that sentiment but could never have said it better than you.

[johnnie]

130. Funny story..

A few years back I was working on the shop floor and we had a radio out there and the station was changed daily by each person. Each day a different person got to change the station to what they wanted to listen to that day.

One day one of the guys walked over and changed the station in the middle of the day, this guy happened to be black. I walked over to him and asked him why he changed it when it was so-and-so's day to pick the station. He held up his arm and pointed at it and said "See what color my skin is? I can do whatever I want". So you see? What you owe is to not pick radio stations. :)

[HardRocker05]

132. you worked hard? a lot of people work hard, but the white man always seems to get

a little more in return for it. as far as the scholarship goes, honey, that 'reverse discrimination' doesn't even begin to level the playing field, but of course you only see the wrongs committed against yourself, you do not see anything from any one else's perspective. when i (a white woman) was graduating with an education degree in florida years ago, it was a given that white women were about the last people to be hired (if there was a half-way qualified male or minority available), but you know what, i didn't fly into a rage against affirmative action or wallow in self-pity, because i realized that a) the public schools in florida *need* more minority and male teachers, and b) the minority candidates at least have certainly faced discrimination all their lives and have gone through a lot to get where they are, and they can help the minority kids more than white teachers can. it is just beyond me how some white males, southern or otherwise, can be so willfully ignorant of what the world looks like to the rest of us, and so uncharitable as to have the kind of attitude you apparently have.

[porphyrian]

137. How did you get to be the white male majority?

That's presuming quite a bit in speaking for all of us, don't you think?

[Cleita]

138. You are to be commended for what you did with your life since

you economically started out at a disadvantage to many other white people and you made mistakes in your youth that you turned around.

Now let me explain something to you. Although you started at the bottom of the ladder, as a white person, you still were about three rungs up starting than Latinos or Blacks.

I was made aware of this when I was an office worker in a place that hired mostly Black and Latino blue collar workers. Many of the workers had GED's, lacking the education to speak English properly. The schools in their neighborhoods didn't have the academic standards the schools in more affluent white neighborhoods had because they were funded by property taxes that were less than in the affluent neighborhoods. They had to live in separate parts of the town in crime ridden areas because they had no choice. Although they made decent union wages, they couldn't move into white areas that were safer and closer.

For most of them the best they could hope for in advancement was to become line supervisor. They couldn't aspire any higher. Sales would have been unheard of for them because white clientele wanted to speak to white salesMEN. I emphasize the men because they didn't want to talk to women either.

The few who had college degrees could probably advance to some of the back offices like accounting where they wouldn't be seen.

So I'm not putting you down for making a success of your life but trying to bring in another dimension of understanding as to why underclasses still have a much harder struggle towards a quality of life than white people do.

[baby_mouse]

139. Missing from discussion of the power structure is the term "rich"

I don't see that YOU owe anything in particular. Also, I think the insults and slurs visible on this site regarding the qualities of the South are undeserved and rather dissappointing.

I think a lot of the knocking down comes from the fact that the South is so red, and that's all.

I wouldn't place too muih weight on it, I think mostly it's mostly just a reaction to the South's (perceived) generalised distrust of the northern Democrats.

All the divsion between North and Sounth sounds to be like a bit of an emergent phenomenon, with the overtones of self-fulfilling prophecy on both sides...

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

142. Emergent phenomenon? I think the seeds are over 150 yrs. old. The exploitation of these

divisions, successfully, by Republicans, is probably a little over 3 decades old now, with the use by Nixon of the "Southern Strategy" after LBJ's support of Civil Rights legislation.

[baby_mouse]

143. My point is...

...that it seems to ME that the South votes red because the North hates them and the north hates them because they vote red, if my reading between the lines is accurate. The Civil War was some time ago. I think it's just two mutually supportive, albeit antipathetic, habits...

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

144. I think the "South voting Red" has little to do with the "North hating them".

I think that if hardly any Northerners resented the Southern (white) people voting Republican so much, it would little change their voting habits, other things being the same.

My opinion.

[baby_mouse]

176. Shrug, okay

You know your country better then me, for sure. Certainly there's all those churches with money to make off spinning the RW points and that could be a factor, although I was reckoning that they feed off it rather than cause it.

Really, I know nothing about it... :)

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

185. I live in the middle of the Bible Belt, in a place full of well off suburbanites who vote

probably about 80-90 percent for Bush. That's my serious estimate.

Their opinion of Yankees does not figure that much into their support of Bush, IMHO. It's not a "counterresentment" thing.

[Karenina]

140. You "OWE" nothing to anyone else.

You got YOURS and are free to wax philosophical on your whiteness and rightness. You MAY owe it to YOURSELF and your Spirit to surrender your MANY assumptions of superiority.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[City of Mills]

151. I would tell you what you owe...

But since I'm from the 98% white Northeast I really wouldn't be qualified form a valid opinion regarding race and reparations. :sarcasm:

Stereotype much? Just curious, who made you the authority on race makeup in the Northeast? Or Midwest, for that matter? Don't lecture us on racism, no SHIT racism comes from blacks and whites. I've encountered plenty of racist asians and even indians. Racism comes from mistrust and there's plenty of that to go around.

No one owes you anything, and as a functional adult you should know that. Do you feel guilt or something? You sound bitter because you lost a scholarship. My advice it to get over it, because life isn't fair and never will be. Just try to be a good person. And assume most people aren't. You'll be fine.

[flvegan]

153. Pay it the fuck forward. THAT'S what you owe.

That comes from a thirty-something, professional white male, living in Florida with blonde hair and blue eyes. Hell, I'm Stormfront's wet friggin' dream.

Let's face it...we're what...1, 2 generations out from our most recent oppressive hurdles? As a white man you have a duty to pay forward what you can, not because of what you owe, but because of what you have and do reap. You talk of ancestors, but you miss that you've gained because of your past, your bloodline. Now, it's time to sow.

I'll be the first in line to leverage my gender/race to help my female/gay/black/Indian/Jewish/handicapped/senior brothers and sisters get a leg up if it's appropriate. It's not about being a better white man, it's about being a better damn person.

[lukasahero]

174. Bravo - thank you, flvegan

It really is that simple, isn't it?

[CitizenLeft]

178. thank you for saying that

:toast:

[Maven]

189. Awesome.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[NEDem]

155. You owe $23.19

Tip not included.

[CitizenLeft]

158. just wondering, why would you have a problem with...

...a Miss Black America contest enough to want a "Miss White America" pageant? Seriously, how does that effect your life?

That pageant was created back when the thought of a black contestant in the Miss America or USA contests was an impossibility. Also, the idea behind Miss Black America was to make a statement about the beauty of black women and to challenge society's established "rules" of what and who was deemed beautiful and - by definition - who was not. Beauty was measured by standards set by white society - straight, narrow nose; thin lips; pale skin; long straight hair, usually the blonder the better; small narrow hips and buttocks. It's been forty years since then, and only within the last 10-15 years are not only Vanessa Williams and Halle Berry considered beautiful, but now so are Angela Bassett and Viveca Fox. That took a loooooooong time. I'd like to naively think that the pageant - and ALL pageants, actually - are now irrelevant. So please don't begrudge the attempts of black Americans to find some equal footing in this world that white America created. Beauty pageants may seem like a trivial thing, but think of all the little black girls who, finally, could be considered pretty too. May seem silly on the surface, but self-esteem in a child growing up in a world that subtlety tells them they're ugly is no small matter.

Also, BET - why does it bother you that there's a network - one small network out of hundreds - that focuses on the lives of African-Americans? How does it affect your life? Does it take something away from you? Again, BET was created during a time when "black life" was what white America said it was on television. What is wrong with African-Americans wanting to define themselves and their own lives - and not live how you think we should? Because, otherwise, white men determine what "it's like" to be black, by framing the shows and deciding what gets on the air and what doesn't. . I'm a black woman, and I rarely watch BET - I'm a movie freak, and the only other stations I watch, ever, are the political shows on CNN, & MSNBC, Maher, the series Rome, and occasionally HGTV. But when I do watch it, I find it uniquely important to African-Americans in a way you would never see on any other network. Example: Al Sharpton has a show; the episode I watched, his guests were black entrepreneurs who were discussing how best to advise black business owners to stay in business and expand. Another roundtable show discussed how to reach young black men and help them to get out of the cycle of poverty.

What is wrong with that? You won't see that on CNN. Ever.

White men don't need their own network. The world is their network.

[ariesgem]

173. THANK YOU!

I was just going to post a similar response but you beat me to it. There is a need for alternative media for black people (along with other ethnic minorities). The mainstream print media also seems to be reverting back to the trend of rendering us invisable by not covering our stories in their mags (unless it's a story that reflects us in a negative light). I thank God for Black Enterprise, Ebony, Jet and Essence. Stand at any checkout line and scan the magazine covers. What do you see? I remember when Coretta Scott King died. My mother pointed out to me that People magazine only had this tiny picture and insignificant headline covering her death in the far corner of the cover page but the main picture and featured article was about (I think) dedicated to either Jennifer Aniston, Britney Spears, or Jessica Simpson going through some stupid crisis.

[CitizenLeft]

177. you're welcome!

It's been trending back that way for a decade or so. Once upon a time, there seemed to be an effort to include issues that concern us - that should concern everyone - in the daily news, like poverty and its twin consequences, violence and drug use. When was the last time you heard any lenghty in-depth report about either of those issues on CNN? Maybe I missed it - it couldn't have been more than one! - but I sure haven't seen it. The closest thing to it was Larry King's special on gangs. It barely skimmed the surface, but he should be given credit for trying. It didn't really go into WHY there are gangs, and what keeps them dominant in the lives of the poor. If BET ceases to exist - and like you said, Jet, Essence, Ebony - then who will cover those stories? No one. And because these stories are NOT covered, people believe the lie that the problems don't exist. The economy is GREAT! Drug use? Violence? Who cares? That's what neglect of these issues has done - lulled white America into thinking poverty is isolated, and where it exists, people must deserve it, because the economy is strong and everybody has the same opportunities. Right? Uh... NO.

The same can be said for the plight of American Indians living in poverty on reservations. They don't exist unless, like Randi Rhodes says, unless they're on the TeeVee.

[Boojatta]

159. Re Miss White America

Even though you are white, you wouldn't be allowed to enter such a competition. You see? You don't owe people anything, but you repeatedly suffer the effects of discrimination.

[alittlelark]

162. Many 'people' joined up early and have low post counts.

When they finally post again after a few years it is almost invariably on a divisive topic..... funny how that happens.

The DU donation drive was a few weeks ago. Did you know that?

[Bluebear]

165. Oh he JUST missed that drive.

:eyes:

[alittlelark]

167. Yeah... it seems that many w/ 2003 registrations

and low post #'s seem to miss fund drives and postings.... funny how that happens!:crazy: :silly: :crazy:

[Bluebear]

168. I'd love to know who's rating up this shit! nt

[alittlelark]

169. Many, many registrations were made early on (-2003)

They just pop up now and then. I find any poster w/ less that 1000 and no star that has been here for 3-4 years is , uh.... interesting.

[City of Mills]

175. There are exceptions...

...some of us are introverts and don't say much. 10% of my posts are probably from the past month and I joined Nov 2004. I'll probably go dormant again soon. Someone donated my star to me a few weeks ago and in return I donated during the last fund drive and since then I've been a little more active than usual. I understand the skepticism about low post counts, though.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

171. I think you know the answer to that.

[JeremyWestenn]

163. What do you owe us? Your firstborn.

Plain and simple you owe us babies.

Deliver by the end of this weekend or face the consequences.

[Redstone]

164. You owe nothing to anybody. Except to live your life as part of your community.

"Besides taxes, being a good citizen, raising a good child, what do I owe you? "

Nothing.

Redstone

[proud2BlibKansan]

172. You owe me

I am a teacher with a masters degree and nearly 30 years tenure and I don't make $65K a year. I would also LOVE to have an inground pool.

But I have one thing you don't have. I am making a difference in the world.

So, IMO, you should STFU amd count your blessings. That's what I do.

Well, you DID ask. :)

[tjwash]

180. Well.

There's three minutes of my life I'll never get back.

[stepnw1f]

182. Somebody Has Been Listening to too Much

Rush Limbaugh..... again. I'm a caucasian male and find your post to be embarrassing.

[baby_mouse]

187. Don't you know you have to reclaim your caucasian maleness from the liberals?

:rofl:

[Gwerlain]

184. "What do I owe"

Simple. Be kind, be polite, be compassionate, be mindful of the problems of race, poverty, and unfairness, act accordingly, and vote accordingly. Nobody's saying these should be the only issues you decide your vote on... but they should be ones you consider, carefully, before you vote. And no one's saying you don't; but it's got to be apparent to you based on who gets elected that many of your peers don't. So before you go calling it a stereotype, take a look at the voting record. That's not a stereotype; it's a fact. Anything you can do to change it is helpful; that's what you owe. And I'll tell you something else: it's what I do. Because it's what I owe.

[Judi Lynn]

190. You owe it to yourself to grow up. n/t