Have you ever said anything you really regretted?

[madmusic]

Sometimes as kids we may say, "I hate you. I hate you. I hate you!" Or "I wish you were dead!"

That's kids, you say.

Ever had an argument with a friend, relative, significant other as an adult? Ever said anything you didn't mean? Bet you have. Sometimes our words are caught in the moment and they are meant to barb, to hurt, but we didn't mean it, not later when we could think straight.

Maybe Richards is a racist, but before I'd be convinced, you'd have to prove that he repressed people of color and damaged their lives - got them fired, kicked them out of their homes, arrested for no reason, sabotaged them, something! And you would have to convince me that he never helped a person of color attain more - a job, a chance at an audition, a sincere friendship, nothing.

Until you can convince me, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and think he had a lot of shit going on in his life, maybe drugs, maybe booze, maybe love or bill problems, who knows, but something that set him off. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and think that over the span of his life, he probably got along well and even helped many people of color.

I'm going to think that because one incident does not define a person's life, and even those who are in prison should be able to get out, vote, and move on. I don't think we should keep kicking them just because they are down.

[LeighAnn]

1. Exposed

Once you've been "exposed", can there be any going back?

This will be interesting. I think we'll see overall forgiveness.

This will also test the theory of there being no such thing as bad publicity.

[madmusic]

2. The "no such thing as bad publicity" is meant as "that's good publicity!"

Far from it here. This couldn't help him get a job or a gig and he'd still have to work a lot harder. So, no way this is good publicity for him.

[LeighAnn]

9. That's what I mean...

I've been hearing that expression alot lately, if anything will put it to the test, this will.
Plus, I think this is good overall. 50 years ago there was outrage over racial tolerance, now there is outrage over racial intolerance, this incident really illuminates this.

[madmusic]

10. Good point...

This is a remarkable sign of progress. If anything, it proves that racism is turned on its head and is not accepted. It's not gone, of course, but things sure have changed.

[LeighAnn]

15. Nope, not gone, but I think things like this will help

There's lots and lots of bigotry and racism out there, but I think millions and millions of people are examining what it means in their lives, I think to the good. At this point I think we live in a society that likes to pretend it doesn't exist, maybe 50 years from now it won't :)

[Karenina]

68. Never mind he fingered the WRONG heckler...

The irony of the insult, according to audience member Pitts: It wasn't the black guy who interrupted him. The black man sat next to the alleged heckler. Pitts told our colleague Darryl Fears the two were in a group of roughly 10 people who ambled into the Laugh Factory during Richards's routine. The comic ordered them to shut up, then asked, " 'What are you talking about?' "

The black guy spoke up: "My friend doesn't think you're funny." The loud-talking friend "was maybe Arab or Hispanic but not black," said Pitts, who was not part of the group. "The way it's been portrayed is that a group of black guys came to the club and were disorderly . . . and that's inaccurate, absolutely."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/21/AR2006112101886.html

[Tatiana]

73. Thank you for this bit of info.

Serves me right for drawing conclusions without having all the facts.

This really makes Richards look even more insane.

[Mythsaje]

3. When my ex was pregnant with our oldest

I did my best to be there for her. I knew how uncomfortable she was and wanted more than anything to make it easier for her. She's a sharp-tongued, cynical, abrasive woman and I loved her like crazy.

One day, after asking her if I could do anything for her and getting the reply "Yeah, shoot me," what seemed like a hundred times that day alone, I got a bit miffed. I looked at her and said "I can't. You're the incubator."

STOOPID.

That probably goes at the top of my list of the dumbest things that ever came out of my mouth, and as I'm particular sharp-tongued and smart-mouthed myself, that's saying something.

So, yeah.

She never forgave me for that.

We went through a bad breakup a few years later and it was five years before we even talked. Thankfully we're on very friendly terms now, but I KNOW that one comment had a lot to do with some of the crap that went down between us.

I try very hard to think before I speak now. It's a lesson I could have learned MUCH, MUCH earlier, in my opinion.

[madmusic]

5. That story hurts just to hear it...

Was it like a last straw thing, or was that the first and last straw? I've found that something is usually brittle before it breaks. Just curious, too, have you asked how much damage that did? Sometimes what we think did the most harm really didn't. It was something else, or a lot of something elses. (Is "elses" a word?)

[Mythsaje]

6. I was just sick of hearing that from her...

It's SUCH an inappropriate thing to say to someone who just wants to do whatever he can to help. She said it all the time. It was driving me nuts.

And, yeah, it did do a lot of damage. We've talked about it since.

Almost everyone I've ever told the story to has winced in response. Rightfully.

And, yeah, there were a lot of something elses (I don't think it's actually a word, but who cares? LOL)

This was just one of the things that struck the deepest.

[truedelphi]

59. I don't know the guy

But it sounds like he has the same misfortune that I have - of thinking up these dark witticisms that if they were told at one given moment would be funny - (like at a party where everyone has had a beer or two) but at another - like when your pregnant wife wants praise and attention - simply backfire.

I no longer make joking remarks to anyone but ME! Or one or two close friends who share my sick sense of humor.

[LeighAnn]

11. Not that big a deal, what you said.

Highly understandable coming from an exhausted caretaker with a sense of humor. Kinda funny, actually. Certainly nothing to hold a grudge over or divorce on account of. Might use it in my screenplay!
(This is coming from a person who carried and gave birth to full-term twins...)

[Mythsaje]

14. With her, it was a big thing...

And I knew it as soon as it came out of my mouth.

A screenplay, eh? That's cool. Good luck.

I can't write screenplays. I've tried. If any of my books are ever made into movies, someone else will have to do the screenplay.

[LeighAnn]

16. I know what you mean...

When I saw the title of this thread, "Have you ever said anything you really regretted?", the first thing that came to my head was, "You mean today?"
It's been a bad week :(
But yeah, a badly-timed crack like that will make you wish you could bite your tongue off almost immediately. Still, it wasn't unforgivable, I don't think, under any circumstance. I hope you've forgiven yourself! It couldn't have been that comeback, there had to be something much larger at play. (My 2¢)

~*Peace*~

[Mythsaje]

17. She was truly miserable throughout most of the pregnancy...

Touchy.

I'm sure there was more behind it. From what she told me later (much later) she was already starting to feel like that was all she was good for and what I said just cinched it for her. It was mostly bad timing, I suppose.

[NC_Nurse]

21. Geez, that doesn't seem so bad.

I carried three children and was pretty effin' grouchy at some point with each one. I don't think that comment would've been a deal breaker.
I might've been annoyed at the time if I was REALLY in a bad mood, but I wouldn't hold a grudge over it. It's kinda funny. I think I would've said, "Too bad YOU"RE
not the incubator, jerk!" Or I would've laughed, depending on the day.
Sounds like she had more going on to me. I bet you were very supportive - it sure sounds like it. It's not fair to expect someone to tiptoe around you for 9 whole months!

[Leftisalwaysright]

4. Yeah, and...

Sometimes when you are in a rage you say the worst thing possible to hurt the people you are angry with. No one really knows what's in his heart, so unless something else comes out I hope people give him the benefit of the doubt.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

7. Not even once in my life.

Im George Bush, and I approve this mess

[madmusic]

8. LOL

:rofl:

[Vidar]

18. LOL

[Minnesota_Lib]

12. Not more than once or twice a day.

:)

[bliss_eternal]

13. Fuck no. I'm perfect. I don't make mistakes. I regret nothing.

Everything I do is art.

:spray:

[Vidar]

19. Good point. Yes I've put my foot in it more than once & am glad

I'm not a public figure for that reason. Recommended.

[B Calm]

20. The only person who has never regretted anything is George Bush.

[NC_Nurse]

22. The media needed someone to skewer this week.

He fell right into it. I do feel bad for him in that he seems to have something going awry in his life or his mind.
What he said was horrendous and he should be shunned for it. I don't think his career is necessarily over if he gets
himself together. Look at Mel Gibson. He's back and I bet a lot of people will give him the benefit of the doubt.
It could be a good thing for Richards to get out of the public eye anyway. He seems kind of unhinged actually.

As for your question: Of course I have said things I regret. Only people who blame someone else for everything negative in their lives don't
do that. It's a psych disorder called NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) - prime example GWB.

[The Backlash Cometh]

23. Happens to me all the time. On the small stuff. Once or twice on the

serious stuff. Actually, it was worse when I was younger. If there was one thing I wasn't suppose to say, it just would pop out of my mouth. Part of it had to do with poor social skills. Many times I couldn't express myself properly, so I'd take on a role of someone that came close to expressing the right feeling. And since I grew amongst the rednecks, I once or twice have resorted to saying derogatory things that were completely out of character for me.

[seabeyond]

25. i am curious, and this is not to judge, but for info

you can even whisper. lol. when saying something derogatory towards redneck dont you have to at least believe it a little for it to even be there to come out of your mouth. maybe you know youa rent suppose to say, but isnt the out of character that you said it out loud, not that you dont think it? i dont get how if you dont think that about a redneck in your heart, it could be there for you to throw at another. if you dnt believe it, ..... you couldnt express it.

[The Backlash Cometh]

30. Since you asked.

When I took on the role, I responded as if I were a redneck. In other words, I said derogatory things to another ethnic group.

First, you have to understand that I was subjected to a very repressed upbringing, as most good Catholic upbringings are. The turn the other cheek, the forgiveness for trespassers, all of it I bought hook, line and sinker. Even believed it when my father taught us that merit was more important than connections.

So, once I waded into the real world, I soon realized that everything I learned just made me a sitting duck or the person that you think about when you say, "There's one born everyday." So, when I had to resort to lashing out, I had to rely on my best role models because I really had nothing presentable of my own and the rednecks in my community were my best role models. (It was a different time, and we all lived quite happily together back then.)

I'll give you an example. When I went to college, away from home, my parents would send me a certain allowance every month. It wasn't much, and quite frankly, you learn to live like a hermit when you don't have money, but still, there was always some school expense that came up, or some bake sale, or some school activity that you wanted to be a part of, so the little money we did get from home, was much appreciated.

So, one trip coming back to school, maybe after the Christmas holidays, I was given a $20.00 bill to pay for the taxi ride from the airport to the college. I knew it should cost only $12.00 for the ride, a couple of bucks tip and I'd have a whooping $6.00 to buy something in the school bookstore. I was really excited about it. The taxi driver was very friendly. He practically gave me an entire comedy act the whole ride from the airport. I learned everything about him because he put it into his act. He said he was Spanish and a Jew and how that combination made him a double tight-wad. The guy said some pretty derogatory things about himself in a self-deprecating way. It was definitely a comedy act he was working on and I felt like he was testing it on me. I did laugh a bit, if I remember. Then it came time to pay the fare. I gave him the twenty dollar bill and expected change. He said he didn't have any change and if it's alright, he'd take the full twenty. He spoke quickly and firmly as if he'd leave no room for argument. That's when it overcame me. I became a redneck and looked him in his eyes and said, "A Spanish Jew. I'll have to remember that." And walked away knowing I had been taken, and that it wouldn't be the last time it would happen.

I know that might not have sound like a lot of backlash to you, but to understand my upbringing up to that point, you'd understand how far I had traversed from the person I was raised to be and the person I became in that moment.

I'd say things have progressively gotten worse as the experiences mounted. In the end, the only way that I can truly be the person I want to be, is to avoid people altogether.

[seabeyond]

32. that informatin was given to you on the ride, lol

he practically forced you to say that to him. thank you for your story.

i live in the panhandle of texas. everyone i know are fundamentalist. i do understand what you are saying about being the person you want to be, ending up being a hermit. i truly understand. i was thinking this morning, i have met some good people, but because of their beliefs i have allowed the connection to fizzle. i do enjoy my peaceful and serene space.

[The Backlash Cometh]

34. I remember taking a course called, "Peoples and Culture of latin

America." It was all about my heritage as seen through academic eyes. In that class I learned that we latin Americans tend to have an inside group and an outside group. As a kid I identified that "inside group" as the extended family which can be several hundred large, but sometimes family can screw you over royally, so I'm adjusting and learning that the inner circle is best composed of people who share your values, and understand that concepts of goodness don't have boundaries. In other words, going to church doesn't make you a good person if you also plan to screw your neighbors over easements in the community, or if you can justify some other assault on the community based on business decisions.

In essence, the inner circle grows smaller, but tighter. Maybe not everybody in the group may share what you feel, but they respect you for the person you are and they know better not to cross you. You can't hope for more in these days of contradiction.

[seabeyond]

24. my hubby and i were talking about this. he says it wouldnt have been

in his head to even say. even if he were angry and wanting to yell out at the people he wouldnt have yelled out that shit, cause it isnt there to pull out to yell. i am asking, when saying something to be hurtful cause angry (and no i dont do that so i dont know) doesnt it have to at least be within. cant be pulling something out that isnt there.

we think probably there is racism in it. but hubby said he has never heard anything this guy has said in the past, knows nothing about him, so cant say.... but sounds like a racist

[IndyOp]

27. I agree - He has racist beliefs. We ALL do...

according to one of my favorite social psychologists. We all have the negative stereotypes jammed into our heads in this culture - stereotypes about ALL groups - white, black, asian, poor, rich, gay, straight, fat, thin, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Midwestern, Southern...

Whether we judge individuals based on stereotypes about their group is, then, up to us. Each time we interact with others our stereotypes about their group(s) are activated, at some level - even if small.

Do we give in to those beliefs and allow them to influence what they think, feel, how we act or do we consciously choose to reject the stereotypes and stay open-minded about the individual?

We can overcome the stereotypes - we have to fight them and keep fighting.

Try this: Implicit Association Test

[nashville_brook]

47. the culture of stand-up comedy is racially charged (lisa lampenelli, et al)

so regardless of what's anyone's mind, the nature of the material performed on the stage is going to tinge your vocabulary.

when i first watched this (thru the cringes) i figured his rage got the best of him (prolly b/c he was drunk) and that he was trying to pull a Lenny Bruce-type recovery out of it by pointing the rage back to the audience (as in "those words..."). like, he threw the epithet out there and figured he'd be able to reel it back in -- but couldn't. you could see it in his body language -- he was deflated... waiting for the big idea to hit him, but it never came.

something that strikes me about this fracas is that he was performing in a performers' venue. the audience was filled with industry people along with regular joes out for a night of fun. the heckling came from the *back of the room* where the big dogs lay. so when he lost his shit, he had to know somewhat who he was yelling at. it wasn't just a couple on a date -- i think he perceived that he was being heckled by other comedians or industry people.

we all have the ability to say the most unacceptable thing at any given moment. what he did had the force of failure behind it. he was bombing and he knew it. to be poked from the back of the room enraged him and he lost it.

but i don't that makes him a racist. i think it's worse -- it makes him washed-up.

what some old episodes of Tough Crowd with Colin Quinn to get a sense of what tree i'm barking up here. race is the meat and potatoes of a LOT of comedy. Quinn (as annoying as he was) went a long to open up this vein and ask some tough questions about double standards, especially racial ones in comedy.

[nashville_brook]

49. an amendment: so, even if Richards were a racist before this happened...

i sincerely doubt he's one today. i think he was totally apalled and frightened by what flew out of his mouth... and per the OP... i can totally relate.

sometimes it takes a giant error to even begin to know you have "personal work" to do. my guess is that he sees that scene replay everytime he shuts his eyes. he is going to be tormented with this for the rest of his life.

[madmusic]

55. That's probably true...

But I sometimes wonder how shocked someone would be if they methodically recorded their dreams and nightmares. The content of our dreams can come from external sources and replay themselves within our own mind. Uncensored by cultural taboos, they can be beautiful or ugly, even deadly or murderous. All that is perfectly normal. If your husband ever dreamed a racist dream, would it come from him or from the cultural debate? The dream itself wouldn't care in the least what the source of the content was, but the subconscious mind would be the sole producer, actor and director. So it is easy to say something is not in our conscious mind even though it has played out in our dreams.

Race is a powerful force in culture, and therefore so is racism. These forces are constantly at play and shift with the tides. There is constant debate, humor, anger, laws, reactions. It is likely something we will never fully comprehend any more than we could fully understand a person, because we cannot be that person. Even a spouse of many years will have something we cannot know because personality too shifts with the tides. Even knowledge of ourselves is not 100% certain at all moments in time.

[nashville_brook]

77. wow -- damn cool post -- i *think* Richards would agree with you

on this. his letterman appearance left me with *this* impression -- that he was shocked that this lurked in his psyche.

love your ideas here.

[Karenina]

80. There are 2 things that occurred...

The SECOND was the racist tirade.
The FIRST was the INCORRECT ASSUMPTION that a black person had dissed him.

I find it amazing and quite a bit depressing that so many on this board make such a conscious, concerted effort to gloss over that important detail in the rush to mitigate the impact of a phenomenon that is POISONING your country.

Hate speech is chic in Amurikkka. Your airwaves are polluted with gasbags spewing filth 24/7. Indeed that filth is piped in to your troops abroad, to errraaa... keep them motivated. It is in this atmosphere that Richards'
trespass occurred. Should he be held to account?

First came the incorrect assumption of an Arab nation with WMDs.
Second came a racist attack which has become GENOCIDE.
WHO shall be held to account?

[madmusic]

83. Gloss over?

Did you check the DU poll on if it was a hate crime or not?

Do you really compare this to the invasion of Iraq and genocide?

That's the difference, I think. One of degree. Richards, to me, is actually rather powerless.

Now he and Allred can duke it out.

[Karenina]

84. A poll on a majority white board

is not my touchstone. If there is precedence in the civil statutes to sue him, I FULLY SUPPORT the pursuit of a ruling. After all, the people to whom the remarks were directed WERE NOT THE HECKLERS. I know better than to expect DUers to understand the impact of Richards' references.

Racism has FUELED American support of the Iraq invasion from the first moment of "SHOCK AND AWE." Many joined up to go "kill 'em some sand nigger ragheads." The preponderence of hate speech on your airwaves has produced a toxic environment which has poisoned civil discourse. Richards is the canary in the coal mine. Hell, if Rush, Sean, the Savage and Ann can go at it, why not he? Go ahead! FEEL FREE!!! Abuse those "others" to your hearts content! You got the WRONG GUYS? Oh well, no problem. They're just "niggers" anyway.

I don't necessarily expect you to get the analogy as I suspect the ravages of racism are a vicarious experience for you. I do understand the point you are attempting to make, but I'm not convinced this case is your best.

[madmusic]

88. Here is the REAL fight...

This is a REAL abuse of power:

Race, Mental Illness, and the Death Penalty
By TChris, Section Death Penalty
Posted on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 08:44:27 AM EST

Tommy Munford hired Guy Tobias LeGrande to kill Munford's wife. A friend of Munford's knew of the plan and supplied the murder weapon. After the deed was done, prosecutors made a deal with Munford: he could avoid life without parole by testifying against Munford in a death penalty prosecution. Munford's friend who supplied the weapon wasn't even charged.

Munford and his friend are white. LeGrande is black. He's also mentally ill. He insisted on representing himself at trial, and he did so while wearing a Superman T-shirt. Despite his mental illness, North Carolina plans to execute him on December 1.

During the crucial penalty phase of the trial, LeGrande's incoherent ramblings reached a pinnacle when he goaded the all-white jury to "Pull the damn switch and shake that groove thing." The jury sentenced him to death after only 45 minutes of deliberation.

Julian Bond writes that he's "convinced that LeGrande was condemned to death in part because his all-white jury could not muster any empathy for this mentally ill black man who had killed a white woman in their community." LeGrande's race is likely the reason that prosecutors want him to die while sparing the equally culpable white man who orchestrated the murder.

more: http://www.talkleft.com/story/2006/11/24/94427/451

Where's the outrage? If as much time and attention were paid to something like this, maybe something could actually get done!

[Karenina]

95. It is the toxic smog of the thick cloud of racism

extending from sea to shining sea that makes your example nothing more than "SO last Friday." It's nothing unusual and Julian Bond will scream his head off while being SYSTEMATICALLY IGNORED.

3,709 dead Iraqis in October is SO LAST MONTH. My point is that brutality against people of colour is not a priority in the collective American consciousness. Indeed, too many actually APPROVE OF IT.

Would that "We the People" would confront the hate speech that poisons the airwaves 24/7. It has become NORMAL and ACCEPTABLE. Perhaps the Richards incident will spur more discussion and an understanding of the need for ACTION.

[nashville_brook]

97. my fantasy: Richards vs Savage

madfloridian is right -- the REAL problem is the REAL life/death racial problem that goes down in this country. and you are right: 3,709 dead Iraqis in October ALONE is the real crime.

lets *use* this episode in the to a common good instead of focusing on the *celebrity* aspect.

best case scenario, Kramer becomes a comdeian for change. Mel Brooks referred to comdeians as "Stand-up Philosophers" in History Of The World Part 2 -- it's an apt description. comedians are funny when they say things of substance by way of puncturing conventions -- conventions of speech, specifially.

you can be a philosopher/comedian in the tradition of Lenny Bruce and Richard Pryor -- or you can be Carrot Top. i think the only way out of this for "kramer" is to take it to the next level. he can no longer be "lovable old Kramer." his only way out of this is to break thru -- and to me, that needs to look like Kramer taking on the Mike Savages of the world mano-a-mano.

[Karenina]

100. Michaels Richards and Irving

have both been blessed with talents in stuctured roles that have benefited them greatly. Behind a mic they suck mightily. We're talkin' dipshits. ON TO THE NEXT BRIGHT SHINY OBJECT!!! O8)

[madmusic]

104. North Carolina plans to execute him on December 1

One week.

[madmusic]

109. Relax, put down your picket signs

He got a stay...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/11/27/superman.execution.ap/"> Man in Superman shirt begged for death, got stay

ALBEMARLE, North Carolina (AP) -- A judge ordered an execution delayed for 60 days Monday so psychiatrists can evaluate a man who wore a Superman T-shirt while representing himself at trial and pleaded with jurors to sentence him to death.

Guy Tobias LeGrande, 47, had been set to die Friday for the 1993 murder Ellen Munford, whose estranged husband offered to pay him $6,500 from a $50,000 life insurance policy.

The stay of execution granted Monday by Stanly Superior Judge William R. Bell includes 45 days for psychiatrists to submit their observations and evaluations to the court.

Death penalty opponents argue that LeGrande is one of the nation's most extreme examples of a mentally ill person who never should have been allowed to represent himself. Prosecutors suggest his courtroom antics were parts of an elaborate act.



There's more...

[brentspeak]

90. Yeah, we know...you've been spamming every single DU board about this

What you failed to mention is that Daryl Pitts, the guy who says that Richards was yelling at the wrong people, doesn't sound very reliable when it comes to relaying the incident properly. He claimed in an interview: He tells CNN, "I feel like something has to be done about. He threw those words around very cavalierly, he mentioned hanging upside down from a tree... It's very upsetting."

http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/1-0&fp=4567f123a45395a4&ei=wbtnRcrfB8n2aJyH1OkM&url=http%3A//www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article_21250872.shtml&cid=0

That's not what Richards said. This is what Richards said:

"Fifty years ago we'd have you upside down with a f***ing fork up your ass"

http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/0-0&fp=456766bdc0322d02&ei=-btnRYLhMrLsabPy-O8M&url=http%3A//soundslam.com/articles/news/news.php%3Fnews%3D061124_kramer&cid=1111481167

That's no less disgusting a thing to say. But the point is that your star witness, the one who's words you've been frantically posting around DU in a fit of self-righteousness, doesn't seem to recall the incident correctly. Everyone else in the theater interviewed concerning this incident said that it really was a couple of African-American guys who did the heckling.

[Karenina]

93. Hispanic, Arab, Polynesia

black, bi-racial, whatever. They ALL look alike anyway. No problem. :eyes:

[nashville_brook]

96. i think our "historic free speech" values are at play with the "Kramer" flap

at least as far as a comedy venue is "free speech zone" by default. when i watched the video, i got that the hecklers were black -- and i was shocked and disgusted by his use of the derogatory n-word. but, as a venue for "speech" i was expecting him to DO SOMETHING with the epithet -- as was some of the crowd evident by the nervous laughter ("okay, where's he going with this??!!"). unfortunately, it got worse with his rage.

i'm not letting him off the hook and more importantly, HE'S NOT LETTING HIMSELF off the hook with any lame, "i'm going into rehab story." he's owning it and actually solicited help in using the episode as a potential opportunity for to unpack the race problems we have in america. i have to hand it to him for this. any PR flack would have him in rehab and unavailable for comment -- but he didn't take that route.

back to "free speech" tho -- the only proper way for him to be held to account is for HIM to hold himself to account. which i think he has expressed a desire for.

confession -- i'm a stand-up comedy geek. i follow the industry and like most people, see a vast chasm is anglo-american comedy culture and african-american comedy culture. remember -- you can't be funny without taking chances. witness David Chapelle's black white suprematist, Clayton Bigsby, is a great example of this.

so, i think you can and need to talk about race and/or any other difficult wedge issue to do "edgy" comedy.

here's the problem -- Richards is an "edgy" comedian out to pasture. he was dying on stage and was insulted by some people he perceived as black, and in this environment, i think it's safe to assume, black people involved in the business of comedy. i think the rage he uncorked was directed to the culture of "black comedy" but it drew on some racial rage deep inside.

you're right. hate speech is tolerated here. that's because we skate a thin edge where we have to tolerate "speech" in general. that doesn't mean that we LIKE it or that we don't demand action when speech goes over the line. that's exactly what is happening here -- we, the people are demanding *something* to make this right -- and Richards, as the offender, is also demanding that something be made right.

you're also correct when you intimate that one person's trespass effects us all. that's why this *might* turn out to be a good thing -- maybe, just maybe, Richards (with the help of Al Sharpton) will be able to take this message to "the People." he trespassed, BIGTIME. he must heal, not just HIS image -- but the soul of america.

so, he has a big project on his plate, but hey, he has a LOT of time on his hands to do so. godspeed, i say.

[Karenina]

101. You have such a big heart, n_b!

Would that Richards could fulfill your fantasy.

Richards is just a symtom of the verbal violence in America. Limpbutt, an infected, festering pustule, is an Amurikkkan institution. We could start there. Where I live, you don't get to run around screaming, "Sieg Heil!"

In terms of personalties getting stomped and shunned for verbal transgressions, would that Rush, Ann, Sean, Michele, Herr Savage, Russert and Tweety and Nora and... and... all be in line ahead of Richards.

[nashville_brook]

102. and nancy grace...

arg!

peace! :)

[madmusic]

81. Thanks, it is possible...

That idea may have been inspired some by someone, maybe the Rodriquez video, saying that the N-word is not uncommon on the stage, but there is a double standard. It is kept alive and simmering. And I wondered at the time how an impartial participate could avoid absorbing it. Since our dreams are sometimes of current events, someone who works at the club, or someone who was an audience member, might have that dream. The dream itself could be about anything and may not coincide with our actual opinions. A dream could take on either side of the debate. What does it care?

Just thinking too much. :)

[nashville_brook]

98. no such thing as talking too much :)

years ago i ran an alternative newsweekly and to commemorate Black History Month i pontificated on racism in American circa 1992. sigh. white girl tries to weigh in and do some good.

my lede was "I am a racist. I am a white girl raised by white people and have a racial standpoint. It doesn't matter how much liberal education i have and how carefully I monitor my speech... my "operating system" runs on WhiteGirl 2.0."

my point was, that no matter who you are or how many sociology classes you take, you are still going to have a racial perspective. i'm not black. i have no business trying to pretend i "get it" entirely. i "get it," but from the perspective of (economically disadvantaged) White Girl. i can't claim ground i don't deserve.

but i relate to struggle. as a matter of fact, it's the single-most defining subtext of my psyche. the struggle of the disadvantaged against the "upper crust" is MY f'in struggle. what african-americans experience as purely race, i experience as class and gender. so, i embrace the stories of their struggle as my own. there's more. my maternal grandmother took the whole story to her grave, but the gist is -- we weren't anglo until this grandmother married an irishman. not by a long-shot. her embrace of the term Cracker Floridian was as absurd as Chappelle's Clayton Bigsby -- she was dark/kinky hair, dark skin, full lips, black eyes. Cracker was something to aspire to.

and still i'm White Girl.

take Condi Rice. does she deserve the same swath we bestow upon Rosa Parks? No. Fuck no. her experience has nothing with The Back Of The Bus. she grew up priviliaged and *that* is her subject position. does she identify with Malcolm X or Martin Luther King, Jr? no. fuck no. Sojourner Truth? BIG fucking fuck no. these are *my* people. but they are "my people" from *my* perspective "from the back of the bus." i don't belong in the front. i don't claim the front.

but, to quote another kindred spirit -- I'm on the BUS.

[Celebration]

26. I do, but not angry things

I say stupid things I regret--or something over the top that make people wonder about me a little too much. I express outrageous and occasionally ill considered positions, and think later, where did that come from? Meanwhile I get sort of odd looks from people.

I feel "lucky" that rarely have I expressed things in anger that I later regret. I use anger to my advantage, because sometimes it is an appropriate emotion.

Some people have huge anger management problems--wow it makes for a VERY difficult life. People can get over this, but they have to really WANT to change. Some people love experiencing and expressing the raw emotion of anger (addicted to the adrenalin rush or something). Also, people that have problems with anger management generally have the "ME" complex (it is all about ME and MY NEEDS and who cares about x, y, z). Some meditation and affirmations could help this.

The occasional saying something you regret, well, that's pretty common.

[InvisibleTouch]

28. Sure...

...mostly along the lines of a bitterly learned life-lesson: Never tell a friend anything you wouldn't want an enemy to know.

[undeterred]

29. You're not going to MARRY him, are you?

Said it to my sister, they've been married 12 years now. I still hear the words ringing, and I still feel the same way. :shrug:

[Bluebear]

35. wrong place

[lonestarnot]

31. Are you a Sienfeld relative?

[CanuckAmok]

33. Yes: "I do." n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

36. All the time, like most people.

As far as Kramer goes, I am actually willing to believe he is on our side of the bigotry median. How could a freeper have worked with Larry David all those years? Larry David is an avatar on DU and one of the most generous Democrats in Hollywood.

One thing Larry does well in his own show is make humor out of race relations, especially the discomfort of white liberals around black people. He seems to poke equal fun at his own ham-handed attempts at sensitivity and the hyper-sensitivity of his black friends. Just by pointing to these things in a public forum, he does much more to advance the cause of racial understanding than people who scream, "Michael Richards is a BIGOT!"

I think Michael Richards was trying to do what Larry David does--edgy comedy about race--but he was not smart enough, too enraged to think clearly, and probably higher than a fucking kite. I doubt that he has been a great supporter of any black causes in the past; he is probably been too wrapped up in his addictions and weird status as a coattail-riding star, much richer than people much less talented. I mostly feel sad for the guy. He's a schmuck of the first water, and not much of a liberal, but I doubt he's exactly Cornfed Schneider either.

[elehhhhna]

37. So many performers jack themselves up on coke, booze, and

...or fiorinal (the performer's best loved pharmaceutical low-level speed-ball) that I'm SURE he was off his rocker when he lost it.

Meanwhile Carlyle Group is buying our infrastructure and government contractors at an alarming rate and at discount pricing, to boot.

The WH is self-dealing to CG & HAL and people are having baby-fits about a D-list "comedian"? Only in America.

[Bluebear]

38. Plenty, but I never "became racist" when angered. Never once. nt

[Jade Fox]

44. Exactly

Anger (or booze) doesn't make you racist or anti-semitic, it only unleashes whatever is already inside you.

I've gotten angry and said stuff I regret more times than I care to remember. But I don't believe my anger has ever come out in the form of attacking the group that a particular person who angered me belonged to. That amounts to using personal anger to justify racist/anti-semitic feelings.

[Feron]

85. I agree

A good comedian can embarass the hecklers and have the audience laughing at them. Calling hecklers one of the numerous colorful names out there is one thing, but what Richards said was just plain racist.

Racial slurs can be funny provided the context. The movie "Blazing Saddles" is an example in which slurs and stereotypes are used in a way that is funny but obviously harboring no ill will towards minorities.

Richards just came off as a racist asshole. Racism doesn't have to be overt in order to exist and working with minorities doesn't automatically make someone non-racist. Frankly I'll believe what he said in a fit of anger over one of his CYA attempts.

Mel Gibson is another good example. How many people would claim that Gibson is not an anti-Semite simply because he worked with Jewish people?! Or making excuses for the words he said.. Oh Mel was a boozer and that was the alcohol talking, not him!...Come on.

[laundry_queen]

66. Me neither.

Although I'll keep in mind that if I'm drunk, angry or high, it's okay to scream racial slurs so long as I'm careful to say sorry after, because, you know, it still won't mean I'm racist.

:sarcasm:

[Nabia2004]

91. Ok, but when you lost your cool, were they of a different race?

[BlooInBloo]

39. I love it! It's officially impossible to be racist! According to white folks at least.

White folks have consistently raised the bar on what was required in order to conclude that a white person was racist. For awhile it was stable: as long as they didn't say "nigger", then some excuse or other could be given, invalidating any accusation of racism.

(Yah, it's stupid, but that's how white folks reason about racism - don't shoot the messenger.)

But now that white folks have shielded themselves from 99.99% of all racism accusations, they feel the need to protect that .01% all the more keenly. It's rather like white folks' treaties with the Native Americans. Even after white folks had control over 99% of the US, white folks STILL wanted more. Similarly, now there's a massive push to raise the racism-accusation bar out of existence altogether. And the OP is an excellent example of this.

Now even talking about fork-based lynching and calling someone "nigger" over and over and over isn't evidence that you're racist.

One can only imagine the weight racism places upon one's psyche, that people are willing to go to such transparently idiotic lengths to will it gone.

Gotta love racism-denying DUers - ya just gotta.

[Jed Dilligan]

41. I've never denied the existence of racism,

but I question it in this case for specific reasons. See my post above.

[BlooInBloo]

42. Nah. I've read enough racism-denial this week to last 10 years. Keep fighting..

... for the white person's right to be as racist as she/he wants, without being accused of racism though!

[Jed Dilligan]

43. Of course everyone has a right to be however they want

Or to accuse anyone of anything they want--short of slander or libel...

How do you suppose he hid his racism all those years working with flaming liberals? And then just lets it fly onstage one night? It just doesn't make sense to me.

[BlooInBloo]

45. A lot of things don't make sense to racism-deniers - no surprise there.

[Jed Dilligan]

46. You're not rational. Talk to me later if you want. nt

[laundry_queen]

67. Doesn't make sense to you?

You think racists walk around talking like the KKK all the time? Newsflash: you probably know a whole lot of them...and don't know it.

[BlooInBloo]

75. It's a certainty she/he knows at least one.

[Jed Dilligan]

92. Yes, I know there are racists in America.

Dick Cheney: racist. William Bratton: mega-racist. Rudy Giuliani: genocidal racist. John McCain: probably a racist.

Why not pick targets that matter? Who the hell cares what Kramer is, really?

[Karenina]

61. "Accusing" a white person of racism in Amurikkka

is a MUCH BIGGER TABOO than the behaviour that provoked the "accusation."

Here's a good one:

"An offensive word is one that will cause offence. That's an objective measure.

But whether a word is offensive or not is not always inherent to it - "fool" or "villain" will always be offensive, but "nigger" used not to be, and "bastard" I *think* much less so, although I'm not sure about that, while "housewife" (i.e. "hussY") and "capon" used to be; now both of those have changed."

These are indeed trying times...

[madmusic]

51. "It's officially impossible to be racist!"

Quote where I said that.

[BlooInBloo]

53. Quote where I said it was a quote. What fun games DUers play!

[madmusic]

56. Didn't think you could....

Your game. Your rules. So be it.

[B Calm]

60. Are there black racists too?

Something those hecklers said must have triggered him...

[Karenina]

63. Two questions..

Is their ANYTHING black people, as a monolith, have DONE to white people as a group, that would trigger their ill-will?

Is their ANYTHING white people, as a monolith, have DONE to black people as a group, that would trigger their ill-will?

A penny for your thoughts.

[BlooInBloo]

65. No, no, no - let him go - it's really a beautiful viewpoint...

... According to their beautiful, wondrous view, it IS possible to conclude that black folks are racist. But it is NOT possible to conclude that white folks are racist.

What a smashing gambit! Not only do white folks insulate themselves from the odious charge of racism, they stick black folks with it AT THE SAME TIME!!!

LOLOLOL!!!!

:rofl:

:rofl:

:rofl:

i LOVE DU!!

[Karenina]

70. If you want a real hoot

See my post #68. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[BlooInBloo]

74. BWAHAAHAHAAA!!!!! thanks!

EDIT: Good thing Kramer's not racist - that would be awful to be racist to the wrong guy!

:rofl:

[kiahzero]

113. Brilliant post, as always.

:eyes:

[zreosumgame]

112. so all 'white people' are the same?

gosh, you are a racist!

[flying_monkeys]

107. This white chick

sees what you see and agrees.


Richards was NOT using the word N as part of an act - - he was using it as a bludgeon to call out the people he felt were disrespecting him by interrupting his show. It came from within him - - and that exposed deep racial bias, IMO.


I see what you see, Bloo.

[undeterred]

40. The things that come out of people's mouths at the scene of a car accident

can be very telling.

The first car accident I had (many years ago, during the first year I was driving) was caused by me- I made a turn and was hit by a car. I hit my head on the steering wheel, and though I wasn't knocked unconscious, I was too dazed to do anything except sit there. I was in a racially integrated neighborhood when it happened, and a lot of the shopkeepers were black. The other party in the accident was a black woman- she was angry and she stood outside my car and called me a "white honky bitch". I think its the only time in my life someone has said something like that to me. There were a lot of black people standing around my car and she was yelling- so I locked my doors and rolled up my windows and waited for the police and ambulance to get there- I was afraid. I went to the hospital for treatment and then went back home.

I remember thinking: "Well, I may be a bad driver, but its not because I'm white!"

Later that day the woman who called me names called me at home. She apologized for yelling at me and told me she was really frustrated because I just sat there and didn't give her my insurance information (which was the last thing on my mind). For her job she was an officer at the bank, and she had to be there at exactly 8:30 amd when the vault opened. She was trying to hurry me along and thats what came out of her mouth.

I've never said the equivalent, but I confess that I've had thoughts which blamed the other person in a situation like this- because of some other category they belonged to. And this experience helps me catch myself: If someone is a bad driver, its not because of their gender, race, religion, whatever. People make mistakes.

[nashville_brook]

48. this is a good comparison -- richards was crashing/bombing

he's going to see those words on the back of his eyelids every time he shuts his eyes.

[NNadir]

50. Oh yes! The Worst Thing I Ever Said Was To My Father.

We were having an argument over politics - he was right wing - and I told him that if I ever had children I wouldn't give him access to them. He was really hurt.

My dad was, his politics aside, a fine man and an oustanding father. He didn't live long enough to meet my children, and I often weep to think of it. I would give anything to have him spend Thanksgiving with my boys.

[madmusic]

52. Another sad story...

Sometimes our words hurt ourselves more than who we say them to.

[auntAgonist]

58. NNadir

:hug:

[mopinko]

54. i think the dark side is there for everyone.

try just going without a good nights sleep for a week or a month, let alone have a problem with drugs, alcohol, whatever. or when you get old and demented. i think he was speaking out of the dark fears that we all have.
my mother, when she started to get dementia, started saying racist things. but in the first 85 years of her life never was like that. in a time when most people were. she raised me, and my 6 siblings, to think that all people are people, and deserved respect. even my father, who was a drunk and an ass. she taught us all to value the good things about him.
so, was my mother a racist?

people can and do have biochemical imbalances in their brains for a lot of reasons. they do and say things that are the result of that imbalance. sometimes they even kill people. people that they love. but we recognize, in law, that these things are not the person's true self. and we put them in the hospital instead of jail.

so, yes, you can be a little out of your mind, and be someone, for a while, that you are not.

[madmusic]

57. Yes, everyone has a dark side...

That's a lot like the dream analogy. Where did that come from? From inside her or from the cultural debate? The mind absorbs everything and we are taking this debate in. We may feel certain of our views but once something like dementia sets in, our carefully constructed highways of opinion can lose their sense of direction. The white lines that mark lanes become blurred and we might even drive on the wrong side of the road. The highways and freeway may split as if an earthquake tore them asunder.

Life can be fragile and earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, they are all a reminder of how vulnerable we are to the force of nature. Sometimes those tragedies are in our own minds. Sometimes the more we try to control them, the more powerful they become.

[guruoo]

62. Track record should be considered before labling someone a racist

What's Richard's track record on the issue?

[flying_monkeys]

106. No, no, no....

If I *ever* start spewing words like that here on DU, you do NOT need to look at my track record to call me on my bigotry.


Track records only matter in sports and politics - - In terms of defining racial bias? One time is enough to get wapped with the Bigot Stick IMO.

[QMPMom]

64. Well, I regret saying to my husband that I wish his mother was dead.

I don't regret thinking it, I just shouldn't have said it.

In my defense, the woman had put me through years of hell and it was expected that I take every bit of it. I just blew up one day after another incident of her interfering and demanding ways.

The woman never did accept me. Up until she went into the hospital that last time (when she did die) she was still giving my husband information on how to become a priest. We had been married 17.5 years at that point and had 2 teenagers.

[Rex]

69. Good lord yes.

I've lost track of the things I've said that I regret. What was I saying?

[Homer Wells]

71. Strangely enough, in spite of the massive vehemence

directed by others in Richard's direction, I have to agree with you. We are Always stupid now and again, and we should not expect perfection or complete political correctness with any of our fellow human beings.

I've done or said things in my life which I can NEVER take back,and I have a choice to either regret it forever or try to learn something to improve myself in the future.

I'm no Bible thumper, but I think I remember something about "those without sin casting the first stone", and no stones were ever cast.

In todays "shock and awe" comedy, it is way too easy to go over the edge, and after watching Mike's apology, it was easy to see he has serious issues with his life.

If this is proven to be a continuation of a lifelong attitude of racism, then maybe I am being too easy on the goof, but for now, I am willing to let it ride.

My $.02 is all this is, but I feel pretty strongly about this.

[williesgirl]

72. Yes, when I said "I Do" with my first husband!

[Karenina]

76. WHAT THE HELL WERE WE THINKING???

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[LWolf]

78. Of course I've said things I regret. Who hasn't?

I generally don't say things that are the antithesis of who I am, though. Usually, it's the less stellar parts of myself that I'm always working to evolve into a higher place that will escape. What happened on that stage wouldn't be one of the things I'd say.

Of course, that doesn't make my faults any better than racism. A tendency to impatience, a feeling of intellectual superiority, too often judging others as "stupid," "shallow," etc.. isn't really any better.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and hope he evolves. I won't give him any air time, though.

[Sparkly]

79. I've never used racial epithets against anyone.

Of that I'm certain.

I've probably said things I regret; I've probably written more things I regret.

[bigriver]

82. "Oh, she's at bet 5.5 out of 10."

What do you know, he married her three months later. And I'm still embarrassed everytime we meet.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

86. Yes! The oath I took the oath when I joined the marines.

The words of which I don't recall, but deeply regretted for four endless years.

[brettdale]

87. Well Once

I was catching up with and old friend, he had a daughter about five years old, I was about to say

"Is it hard to rise a kid with Down Syndrom"

I thought better of it, and didnt mentioned it, which was a good thing, because the Kid didnt have down syndrom, the kid just looked funny.

Another time I was discussing the internet with a deaf girl who could read lips and I said "Yeah the internet is good for downloading sound files"

[Generic Brad]

89. I regret the results of some things I have said

But I never regret the words I have spoken. Some people do not react well to truth and that is their problem, not mine.

[Vinca]

94. After Shrub was crowned in 2000, I said something like,

"Oh well, how bad can it be?" Enough said.

[ecstatic]

99. My (black) parents said they still love "Kramer" and that he's not racist

I really respect their opinions so it jolted me a little in my harsh stance on the Richards situation. My dad even went as far as saying that the first part of the joke (the hanging from a tree reference) was hilarious.

At first I was like :puke: :eyes: :crazy: :wtf:

Had my folks finally turned into anti-black black repukes?!

Then I started to think, racism *is* broader than a few words uttered in extreme anger. Because my parents are in their 50s, I think they know a little more about true blatant racism than I do (my dad actually saw Whites only signs when travelling through the South as a child). His parents definitely experienced and lived it.

I wouldn't go as far as my parents in excusing Richard's behavior, but I'm more ambivalent about it now. In other words, I cannot conclude 100% that he is a card carrying racist based on that 2 minute clip... :dilemma:

[TankLV]

103. Yes - but it's further and further in the past...

Don't remember what it was...

[AtomicKitten]

105. yes - about 25 years ago

And I'm too ashamed to admit what it was. I still cringe to this day thinking about it; can hardly believe it came out of my mouth.

[flying_monkeys]

108. Only racists who oppress and damage others count?

I dunno, the ones who sit meekly at home and talk about their neighbors and coworkers as N's and such sure qualify as racist to me. They don't have to actively light crosses in yards to be designated as such, IMO.


Sometimes, the ones who just use words cause more Lifetime Damage than the ones in hoods who burn the crosses.

[Clinton Crusader]

110. I swore in front of my mother, I DO (1st time) and something...

I said to my husband when Id had, oh, about 154 Margaritas.....oops.
:hide:

[Karenina]

111. Did anyone else LISTEN to Richards'

interview with Jesse Jackson where HE talks about his regrets???