Year by Year, I remind My Coward Relatives on T'giving

[louis c]

Every year at Thanksgiving dinner, we discuss contemporary issues.

I have two cousins, with military age sons, who are gung-ho on the war, but the boys never went.

Today, while eating stuffed mushrooms before the main course, and before we sat down, I told one of them, in front of the other, "I'm sorry to hear that Billy is headed to Iraq, I hope he will be safe." His reply was, "Billy's not in the service, what are you talking about?". My reply, "That's right, I forgot, you only favor the war if other people's kids get to fight it."

Everyone got the point, and they all kept their mouths shut this year, because no one wanted to debate me this year, since every prediction I've made about the war has come true.

[peacebird]

1. sweet! hypocrites = chickenhawks = hypocrites = cowards

[Sherman A1]

2. Well Done!

Yesterday I looked at my 5 year old nephew (of a good Republican Family) and wondered what he might be doing in 13 years. Hopefully no one's child will need to be in harm's way by that time.

[The Backlash Cometh]

44. Republicans are incapable of thinking long-term.

[spoony]

3. Maybe they just wanted to have Thanksgiving

I'm truly happy I don't have to eat dinners with some of the people throwing these stories around. Hey look at me, I bully my family. Hey check me out I really shut grandpa up. Hey my family sucks I start these arguments and they have the audacity to argue back.

It's one thing to respond to other people starting arguments, but a lot of people seem to be bragging about really sticking it to 'em, which is a reprehensible attitude to take towards one's family. If you don't like them that much, don't eat with them, and if you do like them, why participate in these asinine, hurtful quarrels?

[DesertRat]

5. I completely agree with you. n/t

[Vorta]

6. In fairness, the OP did say that this took place before being seated at the table.

[City of Mills]

7. Payback

Believe me, I can understand where the OP is coming from. My pro-republican family LOVES to bring up politics and argue. A couple of Thanksgivings ago, they relentlessly assaulted and ridiculed my wife's and my decision to support John Kerry and the democrats for president. There's been years when I just wanted to spend time with the people I love, yet my in-laws would go out of their way to talk politics and ridicule our liberalism.

I wish for one day we could all put politics and differences aside and break bread together but that is usually up to the Republicans in my family as to whether or not they can keep things light-hearted.

I'm glad you're happy that you don't partake in these types of discussions, just keep in mind that for a lot of us, this year is the first in several that the Republicans in our families have no real argument to make.

[fudge stripe cookays]

9. Guess you don't have any assholes in your family huh?

That makes it very easy to speak from a position of moral superiority. Some of us are not that lucky, and have taken a lot of crap from "the ones we love" the last few years.

If you still think family is sacrosanct, you're really naive. This war and this president have destroyed one of the last valuable things we have in this country. By now, most of us have learned how to make our OWN families out of friends and relations who have brains, not the ones we were given by blood.

[YDogg]

11. I agree. Liberal does not equal doormat in my family.

[DesertRat]

12. We had dinner at our friend's house. They are Republicans

We've been friends for over 30 years and know where each other stands. My 75 year old parents who are lifelong Dems came with us. I reminded them before we left that we don't discuss politics with these friends, especially at a holiday gathering. None of us will change our minds about what we believe so what's the point? Also, my friend has a terminal illness and we don't know if she'll be here next Thanksgiving. What's the pointing of arguing on a day set aside for giving thanks? We had a sunny, beautiful day full of friendship, family and food!

I don't know whether the OP hosted the dinner yesterday, but if someone came to my house and starting bating other guests (Dem or Repub.), I wouldn't invite them again.
Life's too short.

[spoony]

20. I'm also rather bored with the idea that

being civil to your family on a holiday is somehow being pretentious or "morally superior." You don't have to be Mother Theresa to know that being a prat to the people around you isn't wise either politically or interpersonally.

[JVS]

24. Hell yeah. At my thanksgiving we didn't talk politics, mostly work, rent, and food.

The closest we got to political discussion is that when the food wasn't quite ready yet and some guy and I were fetching beers off the back porch we discussed weather it is ethical to buy cheese at sam's club for $5/lb or to pay $15/lb at the mom and pop store. We kind of came to agree that corporate as sam's club may be, mom and pop do not have a claim check to all the contents of our pockets.

[Dorian Gray]

10. I agree....

I vehemently disagree about politics when it comes to some members of my family and my in-law family. Politics never once came up yesterday, and we all had a truly lovely day eating and drinking and being merry. Family, to me, is more important than politics, and I had a very lovely Thanksgiving Day, where I gave thanks to and for my friends and family being able to be together.

[louis c]

13. Oh, I see, just let them keep ruining the country

We only see each other twice a year.

They have enabled the repukes to ruin this country.

they only contact those who agree with them.

now, there's an opportunity to hear the other side.

This is the perfect time to open a discussion. let them know there is information outside of Faux News.

I don't have to convince DUers. I never miss an opportunity to use facts to change someone's mind, and make them think for a change.

[DesertRat]

16. Do you think that you changed any minds yesterday? n/t

[louis c]

17. I'll tell you what, they were quiet and thinking

Talk of the draft from Rengle and a long war from Bush caught their attention.

Since 2003, their positions have been moving closer to mine.

Next year will be "I told you so", when they finally agree.

I'll tell you this, no one had the same position as they did last year, except me.

[spoony]

19. Yeah, thinking what an ass they're related to.

[Greyhound]

27. Pot, meet Kettle.

:eyes:

[donsu]

22. agree - I don't think it's good manners I think it's meekness

go along to get along

times are too serious for that

[Greyhound]

28. The strong go crazy, the weak go along.

We have become a nation of sheep, living in fear, succumbing to, the all to regular, shearing, oblivious to their inevitable fate.

[spoony]

29. Just remember who the "sheep" voted for

You may want to pocket your shears for now.

[Greyhound]

34. I think you misunderstand who does the shearing (it ain't me or you), but that aside,

we will see how the sheep really voted in '08. Personally I think this cycle was a "no confidence" vote against the re:puke:s to a much larger extent than it was a vote in favor of Democrats. In any case, we now have two very short years to prove our worthiness to lead, if we fall back into the old familiar pattern of legislating for the highest bidder, we will see a return to a government so divided that nothing is accomplished, just as our corporate masters want.

[tsuki]

42. I noticed a lot of big mouths that have baited me in the past have

shut up now that Rep. Rangel has brought the debate of a draft to the floor. Suddenly the draft touches other that it never touched before. Maybe it will keep us out of Iran.

[blue sky at night]

15. I am with you,

I changed my outlook, now I am forgiving people for their mistakes...and trying my best not to Judge them. This attitude adjustment has worked wonders, healing my very pessimistic view of things. I know we have differences that no amount of persuasion can affect, but I can work on myself everyday. Judging others only reveals one thing, that we are a person who judges...and it changes nothing.

[louis c]

18. It is not judging

It is revealing hypocrisy to a Friend.

It begins and ends there.

[Gold Metal Flake]

25. I liked how you didn't judge this guy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2793751#2793822

[CrispyQ]

23. Payback's a bitch.

I think all chicken hawks should be called out on their cowardice.

This is not like any 'war' our country has ever fought. It is based on the lies & deception of our president. Anyone who still supports him & this war should be in Iraq.

[QC]

39. Good point.

I had a delightful Thanksgiving dinner last night with Republican friends. We know one another's beliefs, so there's no need for angry tirades. We love one another.

[blue cat]

41. My reason for fighting back

I had been needlessly taunted for years by my family members over all kinds of shit, then they were all surprised when some of that shit was slung back at them. I know how it is in my family, and now they know to not go there with me anymore.

[Retired AF Dem]

47. Totally agree

I don't agree with a lot of what my brothers and sisters do but I still love them to death.

[Patiod]

48. For years, I BEGGED cousins not to bring up politics

"Can we PLEASE have a peaceful dinner? For once?"

But my loud-mouth Aunt (whose son ended up working as one of Ken Starr's top henchmen) kept bringing up her "personal friends" Phyllis Schafly, Pat Buchanan & company. She also ranted on about her own special brand of throw-back Latin-only weirdo Catholicism.

We shared 3 holidays a year, and I'm proud that I NEVER started an argument. In fact, I'm proud that I wouldn't dive into the fray until I had asked at least twice if we couldn't drop the politics and religion.

But once the fray started, I'm pleased that I managed to leave her speechless a few times. I got grief from my family later ("can't you just let Aunt B rant?") but too bad.

[louis c]

56. kick in the morning

[TheCowsCameHome]

4. You did a fine job of cooking the turkeys

....in more ways than one.

[LARED]

8. You do this every year?

They must be very gracious people.

[louis c]

14. I was gracious last year.

After Kerry lost.

Every year, something changes.

By the what, what I said was the truth.

[90-percent]

21. my nephew

is 16 and a wonderful kid. I had already married his moms sister when he was born, so I've known him his whole life.

He has a friend that's in Iraq AS A SNIPER. Kid used to get $50 for each squirrel he shot in the back yard, from his dad!

Kyle says the kid is really messed up because, as a sniper, you get to contemplate the death sentence you're imposing on a complete stranger. Kyle says the kid now feels like signing up was THE WORST DECISION HE EVER MADE IN HIS LIFE.

The whole thing is so sad, and Kyle would want to sign up, "just to go through boot camp and see what I'm made of". Kyle said it was also one of the reasons his sniper friend signed up.

I was horrified hearing all this. Kyle's dad is a good guy, but a bit of a Fox/Limbot. Kyle gave me the "I don't know global warming is real. They say it's just the earth going through normal historical cycles." And so the kid has had a few sips of the kool aid, but I have to talk to him some time and let him know that signing up to serve his country is about the last thing you want to do for GWB and Co. that cooked up this miserable unnecessary War.

I can't comprehend a young person actually wanting to sign up. But,I got my draft card in 1972 and they abolished the draft a few months after my birthday. Different times, I guess.

-85% Jimmy

[CrispyQ]

36. Give your nephew "An Inconvenient Truth" for the New Year.

My second recommendation would be "The Corporation."
My third would be a book, "We the People: A Call to Take Back America" by Thom Hartmann.

Yours is the second depressing account I've read of a young person today. How different they view their future than we viewed ours at the same age.

Things are supposed to get better. :cry:

[opihimoimoi]

26. Political discourse is always good...for it is serious, makes peeps think

Better than innane small talk...weather, golf/sports/nascar/gardening/sewing/family/etc.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

30. I liked the polite way you phrased that. Must be maddening for them.

[Generic Other]

31. Having read all the posts criticizing your comments

I wonder when it is appropriate for people to express their views.

This "politeness" argument is such a handy one to suppress ideas someone doesn't want to hear. I have had to sit through the worst sort of rightwing crap (all while seething with anger) and been expected to swallow it without complaint.

I don't blame you for nipping the inevitable bellyaching rightie whining in the bud. Bet it made the dinner much more pleasant.

[spoony]

35. Do you ever think it NOT appropriate?

Is there any limit to the time and place one should "nip the inevitable bellyaching rightie whining in the bud?" Why not right when they walk in the door? And why does one person get to express an opinion, whilst the other is to be "nipped" before they can do so?

"Bet it made the dinner much more pleasant."

For whom? Who has such a bizarre idea of pleasant that it includes the awkward silence caused by one person going on an unprovoked tirade?

[CrispyQ]

37. Unprovoked tirade. Harr!

I can't speak for the OP, but I can tell you that for the past three years, my sister & I have both asked my right wing mother to curb her tendendcy to rock-the-boat at holiday gatherings. My sister invites an eclectic mix of conservatives, liberals & 'who cares' types. Every year we have had to endure gloating, goading comments from my mother who seems, more, to enjoy "getting a rise out of you" than being with you & conversing with you.

I think we have been more than patient & tolerant of her rude behavior. If she goes on an unprovoked tirade this year, she's getting it from both barrels.

[Generic Other]

46. Here's the worst example from my family history

We were at Grandma's funeral at the graveside with my aunt's husband who was a defrocked minister officiating. He went into a half hour long sermon about how Grandma's dad was told in the 1880s by his doctor that his wife must not have anymore children for her health's sake. "but" says the bonehead uncle, "G Grandpa was a pro-lifer on the prairie and would not let G Grandma have an abortion and we all praise him for not aborting Grandma. Praise the Lord." G Grandma died when Grandma was two years old from complications due to childbirth.

All the rest was hogwash he made up coming straight out of this lying man's mouth during a funeral service! It was the most horrible experience ever! THEN HE STARTED SPEAKING IN TONGUES!!

If you sit through something like that without puking and letting fly with a few choice expletives you are a far far better person than me.

Dinner was horrible that day. He gave us all anti-abortion literature and asked us to pray for the dead babies.

That was before he changed the subject at someone's request and launched into tirade against gays. The only way to shut him up was to parrot everything he said about gays and replace the world "homosexual" with "christian."

I was not the only family member upset by this hideous display of "Christian values."

[louis c]

55. Tirade? it was just a brief statement.

I said every year i had to listen to their holier than thou jingoism about how unpatriotic I was.

2003 "I guess our anti-war louis will be singing Saddam's praises. Did you see Bush on the Battleship. Wow, a jet fighter and a leader too. Thank God the Democrats aren't in."

2004 "What happened to your boy Kerry? The lying bastard finally got caught up to"

2005 (conditions worsen, but stay the course)- "Good thing we got (sic) Rumsfeld. If we hang in there we'll be OK".

2006 Me--"I heard Billy's going to Iraq. I hope he comes home safely".

You know the rest.

[bigriver]

32. Triptophan. It's a hell of a drug.

At least it gives a good time, unlike some people.

[Mugu]

40. There's nobody that doesn't like Triptophan.

[KennedyGuy]

33. Excellent..

Good for you...great point.
And why AREN't these college age war supporters off to war?
Seems as though some only will support the war if others do the fighting and dying for them.

[Mugu]

38. I guess that I'm one of the fortunate people

to have friends and loved ones that I can vigorously disagree with, but still have enjoyable gatherings. In my gang there are several that I completely disagree with on most every topic, but their hearts are pure and their positions honest. Sure, we may not ever reach an agreement on anything, but it's pretty well understood that anybody that resorts to raising their voice or calling names doesn't really have anything of value to add to reasoned discourse.

Almost every family/group has the crazy/obsessed/obstinate/weird member(s) that everybody talks about after they leave. So if you think that your group doesn't have one, there's a good chance that it's you.

Regards,

Mugu

[Buzz Clik]

43. ouch. (My feelings as well. )

My family is dominated by Republicans on both sides (mine and in-laws). The difference, I guess, from the OP is that our closets are full of uniforms from various branches of the military. And, we have an active Marine who's been to Iraq twice. It's pretty easy for me to respect the divergent opinions.

[louis c]

53. At least they're not hypocrites

I may disagree with your relatives, but I respect the fact that they "put they're money where their mouths are"

my two cousins, (who, by the way, are the minority in my family) are disingenuous (to put it mildly).

[drm604]

45. I managed to sidestep it.

For the most part my family is pretty much on the same wavelength with me but there are a few exceptions. Over dinner my cousin's husband starting talking to me about the "slant" of a local newspaper. He didn't mention any particular subject or article. He just used the word slant as if it was obvious what he was talking about. I've never talked politics with him before so I've never been positive about his leanings, but the paper he was discussing definitely does not slant to the right so it was obvious he was complaining about what he perceived as a leftward slant, and it was also obvious that he was pretty angry about it for some reason. My response was to point out that this was the reason we need to do something about media ownership in this country and that it is unfortunate that both of our major papers are owned by the same company thus shutting out other viewpoints. He agreed with me and the table conversation moved on to other things.

Maybe I was being a coward by trying to avoid whatever it was he was trying to bring up, but it was a nice Thanksgiving dinner, I didn't want a confrontation, and he may have said something that I couldn't have ignored. So, mostly for my mother's sake, I sidestepped it and brought it around to something we could both agree on.

I do know from experience that in my family others would have deftly, but firmly, stepped in and changed the subject if we had started down a bad road so it would never have gotten very ugly. But it was still nice to be able to steer it in a direction of agreement.

louis c, given your circumstances I think you handled it the best way you could. Family gatherings can be touchy. Good for you!

[badgerpup]

49. Stuffed. Mushrooms. (giggle giggle)

Yeah, they're good...I like 'em too...
but what an APPROPRIATE metaphor for *some* of the people with whom one must deal...
just because they can show the proper DNA code!

I just liked the symbolism, even if it was unintended. :thumbsup:

:rofl:

[gulliver]

50. They were probably relieved when you reached the punch line.

For a second, they probably wondered whether Billy had volunteered without telling them. "That's right Dad, I signed up for Iraq to fight for freedom, just like you said. I'm going to help kill the terrorists who flew into the towers, just like you said. Dad? Dad? Mom, why is Dad so pale? Mom?"

[louis c]

52. Finally

Some one who gets it.

[kdpeters]

51. I have relatives like that yet still love them dearly.

We're a loud boisterous belligerent redneck clan. I don't really care for that style, but as the only Kerry supporter at my father's funeral, I had to first earn their respect -- which I did being armed with facts they couldn't counter.

I challenged my half sister much like you did your cousins. I ended up regretting it. Now it's a sore topic that is dropped as fast as it's broached. If you have a close relationship, you may want another tactic than shutting them down in front of everyone.

[lonestarnot]

54. Damn. I love you!

:loveya: