My take on the Draft

[Bandit]

I was drafted in mid sixties and sent to Vietnam. It was probably the most influential period of my life. I would not wish my experience upon my worst enemies but I would not give it up for any amount of money on earth. As the book begins "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." It made me the man I am today of which I am extremely grateful. I am opposed to War... Period. War brings out the absolute worst in people. It was because of the Draft though that the anti-war effort in sixties was successful. IMO the Draft prevents war, it does not enhance it. The all volunteer Army seems to attract the more violent in society. The ones that have few qualms about shooting at other human beings. I believe this needs to be tempored, whether by Draft or ????. I do not believe what is happening in todays military is healthy and would love to see change. :shrug: If it takes a Draft to do that then so be it...I hate the taking of life and want it stopped yesterday...

[Warren Stupidity]

1. I was wondering when this debate would get restarted.

Sorry but I disagree. The draft did not prevent the vietnam war, it enabled LBJ to put 500,000 boots on the ground. Sure it motivated the antiwar movement, but it also provided a vast supply of cannon fodder.

[Bandit]

2. I believe without the draft we would still be in Vietnam

It is only my belief with not facts to back it up but I did live through that period and know what my impressions were at the time..

[Warren Stupidity]

3. Perhaps, my point is that we wouldn't have had the troops

to go in there to begin with had we not had a peacetime draft. So, if I am correct, your theory that we would never have gotten out is moot.

A peacetime draft is, in my opinion, a great enabler for imperial adventures. One reason why the neoclowns were so determined to do Iraq with so few troops was to prove their theory that they could in fact use a relatively small volunteer army as an imperial expeditionary force. Thankfully that theory has been disproved with the Iraqi disaster.

Bringing back the draft would just provide an alternative to admitting that they cannot rule the world with a 150,000 man shock'n'awe expeditionary ground force: it would give them an alternative to do it the old fashioned way.

[LiberalArkie]

4. But the draft is what stopped the war.

I firmly believe that if it was a volunteer army at that point in time, the Viet Nam war would still be going on. It was our neighbors and friends that were grabbed from us to fight for something they did not want that caused all the protests. We can not say that about Iraq. The soldiers volunteered. We do not see the mass protests in the streets now.

If, however, our friends and neighbors were to be sent to die for something they did not volunteer for, things would be different.

I believe the draft keeps us from war follies, because your child might be called up. Your brother, your grandchild, your father or mother might have to die for someone elses war.

A volunteer army always assures that we will be fighting battles and not at peace.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. Bad argument. See my other post.

The draft enabled the war to begin with. Failing to recognize that simple fact makes the argument that the unpopularity of the draft stopped the war a bit silly.

There is no way we could have gone into vietnam with a volunteer army. Even with 500,000 troops on the ground we were unable to control the situation or do more than reach a stalemate with the Vietnamese forces. We then proceeded to lose a war of attrition while winning every battle we fought.

Conscript army or volunteer army, three or four years of 300 or more dead per week and we would still be losing a war of attrition and it would still be a political disaster back home. We didn't lose the war because of the draft, we lost the war because we could go home and they couldn't.

[Bandit]

8. What enabled the Iraq War?

Your argument holds as much water as mine..:shrug:

[Warren Stupidity]

16. 150,000 vs 500,000

The army they have to work with now is much smaller than the army they had to work with then. We put a 500,000 man expeditionary force into vietnam, we couldn't do that today with the volunteer army. Obviously they can go to war with the army they have, only thing is it isn't big enough for the job and that is a good thing. Their invasion force lite scheme has failed. As long as we don't do something stupid, like give them a bigger army to play with, this will be the last adventure for a while.

[Bandit]

20. I think there were at least that many in gulf Storm 1

If I am not mistaken 500,000 were involved in ousting Saddam from Kuwait

[Dems Will Win]

6. A draft would just enable Dick Cheney to invade Iran, stay in Iraq and

try to take over Central Asia. Since they are lame ducks the political considerations don't matter to Bushco or any other fascists.

Is that what you want?

[heidler1]

14. It stinks either way, draft or no draft our leaders want to throw

their weight around so much and we have no way to stop it. Bush is extra dangerous because he loves the macho attitude and hates the lets talk it over approach. Even in the UN he likes to promote: to hell with this talk, lets fight. Of course his family is protected. We,re bigger and tougher so if they have a brain why don't they capitulate now? Someone should tell Bush and all subsequent Presidents every few minutes that these other so called EVIL leaders are macho twits too.

IMO the rich who get deferments from war would like sending their own kids to fight and die if they could bragg about it. Humans are so into pride that they often love to send their sons off to war. Philip Wylie wrote: The Generation of Vipers about this back in 1942. http://www.library.csi.cuny.edu/dept/history/lavender/momism.html

[Orsino]

15. The war stopped the war...

...as it usually does. The draft may have rubbed it into a few more faces, faster, and yes, it certainly spreads the pain around, but the children of privilege mostly found their way around it. It was only after the general (American) population got bored/bereaved that the war ended.

A draft offers a standing army whose expense must be justified, thereby encouraging military adventurism. I believe that there should never be a draft, and that if anyone must fight, it should only be the willing.

[Warren Stupidity]

22. By the logic of 'draft stops war'

the superior 'war stops war' compells me to conclude that we should start many more bad wars so that we can then stop them. After all, we will not be able to have an effective antiwar movement if there are no more bad wars. Am I missing something?

[Orsino]

23. The fact that war sucks?

And that, sooner or later, people get fed up with them? Happens every time.

[TahitiNut]

19. The draft also provided over 10 million of the over 16 million who fought in WW2

That doesn't count my father, of course. He was being drafted when he enlisted in the Navy - so he was a 'volunteer.'

:eyes:

[Warren Stupidity]

21. Sure but you know what? This is not WWII.

There is no grave and present danger. There is no enemy out there with the military might to destroy us in conventional warfare. In fact, we are not at war, instead we are out having imperial adventures. No draft in peacetime, no draft unless there is a real emergency that requires it.

[flamin lib]

7. Very mixed emotions myself. Served from 69-71 but managed to

stay stateside.

A draft would do three things:
Motivate youth to become politically engaged,
Get Mom & Dad America engaged in the war,
and provide the canary that every mine needs (short timers come home and talk about what is REALLY happening).

Then I look at my grandson and think "Over my dead body . . ."

[bahrbearian]

9. Partial list of countries with the draft.

all war mongers

Germany Conscription exists.
Greece Conscription exists
Austria Conscription
Brazil Conscription
Denmark Conscription exists
France Conscription exists
Norway Conscription exists
Sweden Conscription exists
Switzerland Conscription exists

[DB1]

13. Germany use to be a war monger and

I would guess that it was the humiliation of ww2 and not the draft that makes them more peaceful today. So maybe we are experiencing our humiliation now? Then maybe a draft will work down the road?

[tjwash]

10. Rangel's proposing mandatory military service again? Hmm. It must be Friday.

Honestly, the guy has been doing this since 2003, and it gets no where near the floor. Right now it's stuck in the black hole of the Subcommittee on Military Personnel.

It is actually not even a draft in the classic sense of the word. It is mandatory service like Switzerland has, in which everyone must do 2 years regardless. No excuses, no deferments, everyone does their service to the country after they get out of high school.

It was supposed to make the upper class gravy trainers who have historically avoided the drafts through the use of college, miscellaneous deferments, champagne units, etc. think a little about possible consequences before they rush off other peoples children to yet another one of their little wars. The Irony is that the only ones who keep arguing about it, are people such as us that were against the wars in the first place.

Freepers and neo-con types love to miss the point on this. I actually had someone email me a few weeks ago saying that this bill was "proof that the Democrats, and not the Republicans want to draft all of us, and that is unacceptable. I will leave the country before I let some Liberal draft me" in one sentence, and literally the next sentence saying how we must "stay the course in Iraq and the middle east, and how if we leave it's a slap in the face to the brave troops who have sacrificed thus far."

Anyway, Pelosi has made it clear that this will once again get no where near the floor for a vote.

[Bandit]

11. Where did I mention Rangel in my OP

I was relating personel experience and opinion. The Draft has been a topic around here for as many years as DU has been in existance. :shrug:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. I was a volunteer and I agree with you.

The most politicizing thing in my life was my 4 year stint in the Marine Crotch.

Went in a fairly apolitical 17 year old. Came out an anti-military socialist who helped "send our boys to Canada". Moved left from there.

The best thing about the draft is the resistance to it. Followed by an unreliable military made up of conscripts eager to get the hell out of the military. Followed by, the realization of many "patriots" that they, or their kids, won't be involved in a video game or a movie where the "good guys" return unscathed to cheering crowds.

[Hippo_Tron]

17. Todays military equipment requires extensive training to operate

This was not case in Vietnam. It is true that there is a shortage of people enlisting, but if there was a draft there would simply be too many people for the military to be able to use because of the training required.

And isn't it probably a good thing if people being stuck in a combat zone are willing to shoot at others so that they can survive?

[Warren Stupidity]

18. Riding a humvee with automatic weapons?

That equipment? Draftees go through the same training that volunteers do. And you only draft as many as you need. If the training cycle is longer that just increases the length of the pipeline. Once you start the flow going down the pipe, when it starts coming out the other end you get a continuous stream. The army is real good at this sort of logistics.

[FormerOstrich]

24. I don't have enough information to know....

if I think a draft and/or mandatory service should occur.

The factors I think need considered are 1) What is necessary for us to quit using contractors for what has previously been work of the enlisted and 2) Are we maintaining adequate levels domestically to actually protect our Country.

Other contributing factors, in my mind, are 1) I think we should withdraw from Iraq immediately 2) I believe we should increase troop levels in Afghanistan to work under the UN 3) I believe we should send troops to Danfur (how ever you spell it) to end the genocide 4) I believe we should build up a strong Army Corp of Engineers which we will send to Iraq or Afghanistan, on the US taxpayer bill, to perform any reconstruction work requested, if the country (Iraq or Afghanistan) can provide reasonable security.

Conscription should not be based on a political agenda but for the needs of our country. PreEmptive wars are not something this country needs. Outsourcing wars or portions of the war is something we do not need.