"Rangel is right about the need for national service"

[TahitiNut]

"Wagner is a professor of ethics at the University of Houston-Clear Lake."

Nov. 23, 2006, 8:42PM
Rangel is right about the need for national service
Democrats shouldn't be so hasty to dismiss draft

By PAUL A. WAGNER

Earlier this week, Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., called for the reinstatement of the draft. No sooner had Rangel put the idea forward than the Democratic leadership in Congress ran to distance itself from it.

So it looks like there won't be a return to conscription any time soon. But Rangel has given us an opening for a more general debate about national service. It's needed and overdue.

First, let's be clear what we ought to mean by a "universal draft" if we ever do find the political will for it. There should be no deferments for college or most other things that used to get folks off long ago. The draft should be nearly universal for all those 18 to 26 years of age.

Second, a draft need not be limited to military service. The country has many needs that only the young can fulfill in an economical fashion. And, since the young have the most to gain from a flourishing and stable America, it only makes sense that they pay their dues as have their grandparents and some of their parents.

This country needs: more border patrol; public transport security; EMTs; fire and police personnel. We need young people to work in the inner cities and the country's most rural sectors. The Vista and the Peace Corps programs also need inexpensive and talented personnel filled with a sense of patriotism and mission. A renewed draft should distribute personnel into each of these sectors for two years' service as warranted by the country's needs, not the draftee's desire.

<...more...>

[bahrbearian]

1. I agree , I'll be watching this post,,, Some people get inflamed .

[TahitiNut]

18. Would you like some? I have extra.

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Pass sonme will ya

:popcorn:

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Lord I could not agree more

We need national service, if nothing else to get the spoiled kids to learn why they serve and who... aka the nation

[bahrbearian]

3. but ,but, wouldn't that be like going to Public School,,,that just

sends chills up Chip and Buffy's spins..

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. No it woudl not

rdbuilding the nation's infrastructure is so different from going to school is not even funny, and it would also give them a measure of pride which schools do not give these days

[bahrbearian]

14. I was inferring to the fact that the Rich and powerful have no ties

to the general public, and it is they who promote class warfare. They are sheltered all their lives.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. And one way to force them to break from that

is to force them to serve

Yuo know the British Empire had many faults, human rights, abuses, yuo menmtion it, But one thing they did right is that if you wanted all that priviledge that came from being in the upper crust, you had to serve, either in the home regiment, that got deployed from time to time... or preferably in the system of Imperial Administration. This forced many a young men (women need not aply at the time) to go serve on the far corners of the Empire. It also led to some of the best critiques of the Empire, (George Orwell for example was a member of the Imperial System).

Now compare this to the American Empire. Who serves? Those who are on lower rungs of society. Who beneifts? Those who never risk a thing

Don't you think it is time to make them serve? I mean the rich and powerful.

[tjwash]

27. Making it mandatory for the rich and powerful to serve in the military...

...even with the monopoly that the neo-cons had in D.C. until a couple of weeks ago, is the reason that Rangel's bill did not come near the floor for a vote. It got proposed again in February, and immediately got buried in the black hole of the Subcommittee on Military Personnel.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. I realize that

and that is why I whole heartedly support this bill. I want to see Jenna Bush toting an M-16 on patrol

hell even a post typing reports as a company clerk anywhere in theater would be acceptable to me

[Trillo]

64. I agree, K-12 school is national service,

it's simply work for no pay, and it's compulsory.

However, the claim of educational advocates I've argued with here on DU is that high school is supposed to prepare one to jump when you're told to jump, and be underpaid for doing so, the purpose being to prepare the HS graduate to be part of the corporate machine. Therefore, the focus is on corporate greed even while the children are told what to do with increasing micromanagement and zero pay.

Therefore, this new 'national service plan' of whomever's is curious, it seems to want even more free workers, after they've worked for free for a number of years without any choice in the matter, simply to have workers for free instead of for greed. It's to transition from the State mandated ethic of preparing to live a life working for someone else's greed, to simply working because you're forced to work.

So, when does the slavery society start up again?

[CarbonDate]

99. Huh? People pay good money to go to school....

...once they're out of high school.

Have we degenerated so far that education is now a burden?

Seriously, education is something to be valued, and you're comparing it to a job? WTF?

[TechBear_Seattle]

5. What if national service were a requirement to vote or hold office?

We could start down the path of Robert Heinlein's "Starship Troopers." Hopefully, though, without the desperate interstellar war.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Actually given how many kids truly

are spoiled and are only looking up for number one... I'd have no problem with that one. By the way, it would prevent some poltiicians, mostly of the GOP persuasion, from serviing and voring

Heinlein's back story for that is so somilar to what is CURRENTLY goingo on with our vets, it should give you chills

[Hippo_Tron]

46. Where do you get the assumption that kids are spoiled anymore than they used to be

People like Paris Hilton are a vast minority. And every generation has had its Paris Hiltons. Also, with all due respect, have you ever served?

[TahitiNut]

48. Yeah. Mybe it's the smell?

:rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. I have served

I was an O-3 when we finally left the reserves... in a foreign military

I had the fun time of telling a full bird where to stuff it when he gave me a highly illegal order. Thank the gods my command authority supported me or I would have found my ass in a sling and myself in front of a firing squad.

I have been in situations where mosquitoes are made of lead and fly at near supersonic speeds... yep them are really, really :sarcasm: fun times, when you can smell everything and see so well it is down right scary... especially when that smell you get in is your own fear.

I have seen the guts of a person fall out after he got cut down by an AK... amazingly he was still alive. He died in the OR a couple hours later.

I have transported people to the local ER who were less than savory, and who I had to remind they'd better shut up or I would have to tell the authorities

MREs are really fun, especially forty year old MREs, ah yes walking on peanut butter for three hours to make it barely palatable on the crackers that should properly be called hardtack can be lots of fun... and that mini bottle of tabasco has far more than just the use you think about, including staying awake.

Oh and yes, I almost got killed in a shootout after one of my people, who have known better, loaded a combatant into the back of my clearly marked ambulance, removing all claims of neutrality for that rig.

Oh and yes kids today are far more spoiled than they have been in previous generations. This is not my observation, but that of sociologists and other experts. They have also been extremely coddled and protected and we are starting to pay the price for that.

Now I know I don't have to challenge you or ask you that qusetion... since I already know the answer.

Oh and before I post this, I also kept the home fires going for my husband when he deployed as a member of the US Navy. I've been told that this is also considered a form of service.

[Name removed]

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[Stinky The Clown]

71. If national service were a prerequisite, the Republic Party would die

NONE of them served ..... well, almost none.

Instead, we get asshat Republics like this asshat among asshats:

Patrick Henry of NC-10



Former Young Republic/Tom Delay accolyte/Ralph Reed asshole buddy ........

[HCE SuiGeneris]

21. No-- not the nation... thay are serving the people ffs!

[QuestionAll...]

66. erm, corporations are usually served, not the nation.

where've you been?

[Name removed]

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[TahitiNut]

20. Yes, professors of ethics usually are.

:eyes:

[rockymountaindem]

33. Everybody with higher education is a genius!

Just look at David Horowitz...

[Jed Dilligan]

104. I'm a professor (lecturer, actually) and TN thinks I'm an idiot,

so I'm sure he's not consistent on this point.

[Buck Rabbit]

37. His mistake is in the age range. Should be 21-50 both genders.

So says a 52 year old. (Keeping my fur out of the game.)

[LWolf]

6. I disagree.

I don't think you mandate service, if you want good service. I think the best service comes from within the person doing the work, not from the legal whips compelling them.

I also disagree with using our youth as low-paid labor to fix the messes we've created with deliberate neglect. I'd like to see a WPA program that would fully train and employ all Americans who need a job, paid a living wage, to do all the work mentioned above. I think it devalues the work done to consider it a transient, low-paid "service." I think inner cities and rural areas, as well as every place else, deserves fully trained, fully paid, local people doing the jobs that their local area needs, and I think those jobs should come with benefits and job security.

Young people? They should have some options as they leave high school:

public trade school or college that they don't need well-to-do parents or a lifetime of student loan debt to attend.

[pnwmom]

13. Good post, LWolf. n/t

[TahitiNut]

16. Well, mandatory public education certainly results in a resistance to learning.

Yep. I see it all the time. :eyes:

[Name removed]

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[TahitiNut]

28. Well, golly ... as a draftee who served in Viet Nam ...

... I'm thinking back to how I, and the other draftees I served with, just didn't do a good job. Even though draftees earned a proportional number of medals and honors, I guess it was all a fraud.

:eyes:

[bobbolink]

42. See how much we're learning?

Who knew?

[DemBones DemBones]

72. Who knew TahitiNut was a Viet Nam vet? Well, I did,

and I'd think a lot of others do, too.

[bobbolink]

115. .

:eyes:

[DemBones DemBones]

120. Whatever.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. So if I pay these national service workers

room and board, and a stipend a month, that is working for free?
WOW I did not know that.

I guess the military does not get paid either

:eyes:

Now granted, there are soem jobs in that list he put in there that I would still have profesinals mostly do, such as police work, but having busted ny behind with plenty of volunteer fire and paramedic volunteers, I think these kids could do it. What is more, their training could be used to advance them into profesional metropolitan services if they chose to go that route.

[Name removed]

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[nadinbrzezinski]

35. You are missing the point

and will continue to miss it... we as a nation need this national service, the country is dying all round you because of this me first attitude, which you exemplify

Many a draftee has served around the world, with honor and pride. Many a draftee has found meaning in the world

But I guess you are one of those people who confuse drafting people for national service, yes even the WPA was a draft, with slavery. All in all that comparison shows a lack of knowledge and a me first attitude that is just sickening.

[Name removed]

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[nadinbrzezinski]

40. And we can agree to disagree

What I am seeing is a clear divide. Those of us who HAVE served, either as draftees or volunteers, in any capacity realize why it may be needed.

And yes it is the me first attitude, I will call them as I see them...

[Name removed]

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[nadinbrzezinski]

36. If you compare this to slavery

then you have learned nothing about history. By the way, can I buy a draftee? Last time I checked no I could not. Once service is over, can that draftee reunite with his or her family? Or do such during leave? Yep. Could slaves separated at auction reunite with their families? Were they paid money for the work they did?

Only the ignorant will compare a draft to slavry... and boy there are plenty round these parts.

Oh and I am sure you will also defend the present economic draft since it prevents your ass from being there

[TahitiNut]

49. "By the way, can I buy a draftee?"

:rofl: Perfect squelch. :rofl:

I wonder why nobody bought me!?!?!? Damn! I guess that's why no female draftees were in Nam. They must've been the ones who got bought.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

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[TahitiNut]

61. Of course you would, son.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

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[TahitiNut]

94. You've made two of the most despicably ignorant and hateful posts I've ever seen on DU.

Why don't you just go back to whatever pile of manure you crawled out from under, dung beetle?

[Name removed]

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[TahitiNut]

98. Go fuck yourself, troll.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Damn does the right wing know you are spouting their

talking points over here?

That conscript army did everything it was asked of it. They won every major tactical battle that they were engaged in. It was the politicians (who had no clue they put US Combat forces in the middle of a civil war, sounds familiar doesn't it) that lost that war. It was commanders on the ground who were far more concerned about punching their combat card or working for their next star who lost that war. But it was not the troops

Just like today the military, the grunts on the ground, have won every major tactical engagment, but have yet to conclude any significant STRATEGIC victory.

Perhaps you should go play down at the sand box kid, becuase you have no clue what you are talking about.

Oh and the shiny backhow behind you, well you may want to use it to dig a deeper hole faster.

[Name removed]

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[nadinbrzezinski]

83. And misrepresentation of history

and insulting the troops who fought it is exactly what the RIGHT WING DOES ON A REGULAR BASIS KID.

Ending that draft made the military DISPOSABLE, and one reason where we are where we are RIGHT NOW

Was the draft during that era perfect? No

Is our ECONOMIC DRAFT correct? NO

But since YOUR SKIN is not in the game, you don't care if Luis, and Muhamad and Larry, all kids living in the projects, get to sign up since that is the only way they can make a living. That is extrmely progressive NOT from you.

[Sparkly]

105. "economic draft"

Thank you. :thumbsup: Good post.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Of course you woudl kid

you have no clue what slavery is... absolutely NONE.

Sorry for what may seem like a flame to you, but go buy a clue... use that fancy education, and do some readying on what happened to real slaves in the Atlantic mid passage... just for starters. Then you tell me that the draft can be compared to slavery.

[Name removed]

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[nadinbrzezinski]

84. Your knowledge of history

and what slavery is shows why we need to improve education in this country.

Yuo don't like to be confronted with the fact that you have no clue it is not my fault.

I will put my education on BOTH SUBJECTS versus your lack of knowledge any day of the week and twice on Sunday

Oh and incidentally, by making a false comparison you also dishonor the memory of ACTUAL slaves. You know the REAL DEAL

[Rabrrrrrr]

67. And if the draftee doesn't come back from leave? To prison!!

(or if not prison, certainly a hell of a lot of trouble - the government goes to great pains to retreive its property, whether it be computers or military personnel).

Slavery with room, board, and the occasional vacation is still slavery.

Drafting is akin to slavery. Yes, it's not lifelong like slavery was, but so the fuck what?

Slavery for one day is just as wrong as slavery forever.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. It is not

and that comparison shows the level of ignorance, willfull ignorance

[Rabrrrrrr]

91. Yes, and we all know how willfully ignorant I choose to be.

:eyes:

If one is forced to something against one's will, and one is put into a situation in which one has no true control over one's destiny, then it's slavery. Whether it's the more mild household slavery of ancient Rome or the more drastic and violent servant slavery of Rome, Egypt, or the American South.

To deny people choices over their own fate, under penalty of imprisonment or possibly death if they DO try to make a choice for their own life, is slavery, no matter how much you pay them or how well you feed them or how nice the Hummer they get to drive around in, and mo matter how temporary the situation might be.

Perhaps you are stuck in a paradigm of the worst of the American South's version of slavery, and don't have a breadth of knowledge of slavery over history necessary to understand all forms of forced servitude. If this is the case, then the fault does not lie with you that you don't understand how forced conscription is as wrong as and no different than slavery. Sure, we give it a nicer name. But it's still a form of slavery.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. I actually have that knowledge

ranging from the customs in Egypt and Rome, as well as Mesoamerica to the deep south.

And regardless how you want to paint it a draft is NOT slavery... even the most being form of slavery.

It is sad that you are willing to even think that a draft is slavery. But it goes down to another fact, this country is mostly on life support and one raeson is the utter unwillingnness of both people on the right AND the left to serve in any capacity. The 1980s disease of what about me is now part of the national psyche... and that is a sad statement

[Rabrrrrrr]

114. Explain, then, how a draft is NOT slavery.

If you can explain it well, perhaps I'll change my mind.

But as it seems to me, once you get the backing of the entire penal industry of the US government behind you to force people into service they do not choose for themselves for a period of time that is also not of their choosing, and to be able to force them to do so under threat of imprisonment or execution, that's akin to slavery.

So, let's hear your side of it.

(and p.s. - the quandary as to whether or not enough people are volunteering their time in service to others is utterly irrelevant in the argument of whether we define the draft as slavery or not-slavery)

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. I did alraedy

last time I checked I cannot go down to the draft board and buy a draftee or two.

If you cannot see the difference, then I cannot help you.

[Rabrrrrrr]

118. That's your reasoning?

99.9% similarity to slavery, but since they can't be traded, it's not slavery.

:eyes:

:rofl:

That's a pretty limited view of slavery, basing it on whether YOU are kept out of the market as a purchaser.

I guess we're going to differ on this - I look at slavery as a condition of non-freedom to self-determination under threat of violence, death, or imprisonment.

I guess you look at only as whether a person can be sold to someone else.

I guess all the Jews in the gulags forced into labor weren't really slaves, since no one else had the capacity to buy them.

And yes, the quality of the conditions they (the Jews) lived under were worse than what a draftee would live under (the draftee will have better food and housing, for instance), I realize that, but the conditions are still the same and the limitations are still the same: try to escape, and die or be put in prison. The state still owns the person.

To me, that's slavery. No matter how much sugar you put on the turd, it's still a turd; whether it's calling slavery a "draft" or "innocents killed in a war" as "collateral damage" or "terrorist" a "freedom fighter".

[CatWoman]

90. oh lordy massa!!!

don't take away my room and board!!!!

[LWolf]

30. ???

I said "options," not "mandates."

:wtf:

[bobbolink]

41. You're a fan of Kucinich, right?

Seems to me that Kucinich's Dept. of Peace comes very close to this.

I don't understand your adamant refusal to think about this. Sounds like a deeper objection, to me.

[LWolf]

50. I can't find any reference to mandatory service

in the Dept. of Peace proposal. Please link it for me if you find it.

Deeper objection? Absolutely. I deeply object to anyone mandating anything from me. I go to work. I pay my taxes and bills. I support my family. I educate myself, I vote. I do my best to live my life in a way that harms none and benefits some whenever possible.

But I don't take orders well. From anyone. I'll take them from my employer, although I often resent their denigration of my professional skills. I don't like top-down decision-making. Take away my right to choose my own life, my own pursuits, and my own way of serving, and I'll fight you every step of the way. Try to take away the rights of all to do the same, and I'll fight for them.

NO GOVERNMENT HAS A RIGHT TO EXPECT ANY SERVICE FROM ME. The government is supposed to be serving the people, not the other way around. If I give of myself, that's because it's MY CHOICE. I'm not giving so that the government doesn't have to. I'm giving to particular people or causes because I care, and because I want to.

In other words, as a citizen you can educate me. I appreciate that. I also think that anyone who wants any kind of democratic system to work better damned well make sure that people are educated. I think people have a right to education, just as I think they have a right to health care. With that education, I'll do the best I can to live a worthy life. But that life is mine. You can't dictate to me.

[bobbolink]

117. You've given a very good definition of "Libertarian".

Many of us learned a long time ago that there's just no reasoning with libertarians.

I'm sure, as a libertarian, you will have a rationalization why it's OK to have education mandatory but not national service, but...

I learned my lesson about libertarians.

Have a fine day.

[LWolf]

119. I'm not a libertarian.

I admit that on the political compass I fall into the "left libertarian" quadrant; as opposed to those on the right or those in the authoritarian category, or, sadly, the many political leaders who appear in the "right authoritarian" quadrant.

I've had nothing to do with, and want nothing to do with, the Libertarian Party, though.

Trying to pin a label on me to make your point just won't work; the label doesn't fit, and won't stick.

I notice you weren't able to find a reference to mandatory service in the Department of Peace proposal, lol. So, since you couldn't back up your assertion about Kucinich, you decide to label me a "libertarian" and push me out of my own party into some "enemy" camp. :eyes:

Mandatory education? Absolutely, if you plan to allow everyone a vote. For me, that's the purpose of public education. Not to train people for the workforce, but to make them literate, numerate, give them a broad liberal arts education, and teach them to think critically. How else can they vote responsibly?

Of course, that's not exactly what public education is doing these days, lol. As an educator, I know exactly how far our public ed system is from this ideal. Still, I'm in there on the front lines, doing what I can. Any time the general public wants to offer up some support for positive change, and moving toward a better educated general population, I will be right there.

I see no correlation between making sure the voting population has the opportunity to be a responsible voter and mandating public service. Is that kind of like being an indentured citizen?

[bobbolink]

121. lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

I'm just sick and tired of snark.

Dennis doesn't snark.

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

Yeah, we're advocating SLLLLAAAAAAVVEERRRYYYYYY

:puke:

[LWolf]

122. You're advocating slavery?

To be honest, I don't know what "snark" means.

I do know what "smartass" and "bullshit" mean, though. I believe you just used a smartass remark to spin some bullshit. No offense intended, but I'm going to call it as I see it. :shrug:

Of course, you will not find anything about slavery in my posts. I also never mentioned Kucinich at all; you did. I can't say whether he "snarks" or not, since "snark" doesn't seem to be in my dictionary, and I'm obviously not keeping up with current slang.

Be as sick and tired as you like, if that's what you thrive on. When someone starts a thread promoting an agenda I disagree with, I get to disagree. That's what a political discussion board is about: debate of the issues. I think I disagreed respectfully, and I think I've engaged with those who don't like my pov with civility.

What about you?

[Mythsaje]

108. Awesome points, Lwolf...n/t

[rocktivity]

7. Why doesn't Wagner wonder why THE REPUBLICANS haven't started a draft?

...a draft need not be limited to military service. The country has many needs that only the young can fulfill in an economical fashion...since the young have the most to gain from a flourishing and stable America, it only makes sense that they pay their dues as have their grandparents and some of their parents.
Sounds like a cheap labor scheme to me.

This country needs: more border patrol; public transport security; EMTs; fire and police personnel...The Vista and the Peace Corps programs also need inexpensive and talented personnel filled with a sense of patriotism and mission. A renewed draft should distribute personnel into each of these sectors for two years' service as warranted by the country's needs, not the draftee's desire.
It this country NEEDS more border patrol, public transport security, EMTs, etc., then the country should should HIRE AND TRAIN them. And they should be paid full-time living wages and benefits--a "sense of patriotism and mission" doesn't pay bills OR taxes. As for the "the country's needs" versus "the draftee's desire," I strongly suspect that the richer, better-connected kids will end up with the cushier assignments all over again. That's why I've always been against the universal draft--it confuses service with servitude.

:headbang:
rocknation

[pnwmom]

8. Garbage.

Draft, conscription, national service, whatever they call it, is still a form of involuntary servitude -- slavery.

We already have young people working as teachers, as nursing home attendants and social workers, in medical school -- how can we act as if there aren't millions of young people already giving back to the community?

"A renewed draft should distribute personnel into each of these sectors for two years' service as warranted by the country's needs, not the draftee's desire."

More garbage. We don't need another massive new bureaucracy designed to to manage our lives. This is just a way for the State to get and hold onto more power. It has already proven it doesn't deserve that trust.

[shance]

9. Whatever stops this illegal war, do it.

n/t

[pnwmom]

15. If they had National Service right now, they'd be sending our kids

out to work for Halliburton.

No way would it help to end the war.

[Name removed]

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[BlackVelvet04]

10. Stupid.....

stupid comment: "The Vista and the Peace Corps programs also need inexpensive and talented personnel filled with a sense of patriotism and mission."

So you can force people into a sense of patriotism and mission? What crap. Inexpensive personnel? Slave labor, maybe?

I CANNOT believe ANYONE with any sense thinks it is a good thing to force people into service. And sense when is patriotism a good thing? Patriotism is the exact thing that rightwingers use to get by with illegal wars, draconian "security" measures and invasion of privacy.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. The best thing about the draft is the resistance to it.

I think Charlie has accomplished what he set out to do. He has stirred debate about the real cost of war and removed it from the whiz-bang, wow, cool video, "support our troops", rah-rah, bullshit that the politicians and generals so love.

I would like to see a reinstitution of the draft, which I opposed strongly during the Vietnam War, not because I think people should be forced into public service, but to return to an unreliable and resistant, "citizen army" full of realists who don't want to kill or be killed for the sake of ambitious politicians.

[bobbolink]

44. That's one very good way of putting it. "Resistant 'citizen army'"

"full of realists"

I like that.

Beats a bunch of mercenaries, eh?

[Hippo_Tron]

47. It won't work the same way it did during Vietnam

See here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2785943&mesg_id=2785943

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

51. Is that how you would vote?

What would you do if there really was a draft?

I have a feeling that most people subject to the draft would make the connection between war and the need for troops to fight wars.

[Hippo_Tron]

53. But nobody here is proposing a draft to have more troops to vote

They are proposing a draft to teach the Paris Hiltons of the world a lesson.

And frankly I'm not sure how I would vote considering I resent the idea that I need to be taught a lesson but also I'm already anti-war. Let me put it this way, though. I would consider actually voting Republican and right now I would never consider that.

People on this board heavily resent rich people and their kids and that's not a view I share. I don't resent anyone because of their wealth, I just think that they need to pay their fair share of the taxes.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. Well, I don't think you're in much danger of being drafted.

At least not at the present. Of course, if the politicians decide there is some sort of "national emergency"...it would be a good idea to have your map of Canada ready and gas in the car. I sure as hell did in 1967 when I was still in the inactive reserves. Cuz I wasn't about to get back into my marine suit and start marching again. Not to mention that the idea of killing people that I didn't know and had nothing against was repugnant to me.

You're right. This generation, your generation, has never faced the draft. I did, and part of the reason I joined up was that I was pretty sure that I was going to get drafted, being poor, unemployed, and with little chance of college.
There was no war on then, hadn't been for years. Most of those facing the draft either just waited for their number to come up, tried for a deferment, or joined up. Most didn't think in terms of "war" except as some kind of adventure where the "good guys" always won and were heroes. Vietnam changed all that.

Now we have a real "war" going on where real people are getting blown up, shot, maimed, and all those other glorious things that make for good movies, but bad newsreels.

If I were you, I'd resent, and be insulted by, the notion that anyone can order me to be a killer. When they asked me to extend my enlistment to go to Vietnam "and serve my country" I told them where they could shove that idea because I was insulted.

I'm "for" reinstating the draft but against anyone being drafted. If the draft is reinstated I'll be protesting it, again. As John Steinbeck once said when talking to Russian students during the Brezhnev era:

"Young wolves, show us your teeth."

Which is exactly what I believe Charlie Rangel is calling for.

[Hippo_Tron]

59. Read the posts here

People don't want me to go kill, they want me to be conscripted into border patrol, peace corps, or fixing up inner city schools. They think that I have led an easy life and that it is the job of the US government to teach me something about reality.

[lumberjack_jeff]

23. A perfect example of hearing what you want to hear.

"Rangel is right about the need for national service"

Where did Rangel say that? Is he currently advocating compulsory civilian service? Every quote I've seen is Rangel proposing a military draft (presumably with fewer deferrments than was the case in the 60's).

He might be right about it if he'd ever said it.

EVERYONE's views on this subject are highly colored by their view of the person making the suggestion. That is especially true here. I find it kind of perplexing that a bad idea coming from Rangel is embraced wholeheartedly, while if the very same bad idea were to come from Bush, (from whom we've come to expect bad ideas) the very same people would be protesting.

Support for the Rangel idea is wholly dependent on trust of him.

[rocktivity]

52. Actually, Rangel's current draft proposal DOES include service outside the military

Yahoo News, Sun Nov 19:
"If we're going to challenge Iran and challenge North Korea and then, as some people have asked, to send more troops to Iraq, we can't do that without a draft," Rangel said.

He said having a draft would not necessarily mean everyone called to duty would have to serve. Instead, "young people (would) commit themselves to a couple of years in service to this great republic, whether it's our seaports, our airports, in schools, in hospitals," with a promise of educational benefits at the end of service.

The promise (promise?) of educational benefits isn't going to attract the young people who don't need them. And you can bet that the cushier non-military jobs will go to the richer, better-connected kids, thereby defeating the draft's purpose. Also, what happens to the people who already ARE working at our seaports, schools, etc.? Do they get laid off? Outsourced? Do their wages go down? Do their unions get busted?

:headbang:
rocknation

[yewberry]

56. I'm in my second year of national service

and I can address your last question.
>>hat happens to the people who already ARE working at our seaports, schools, etc.? Do they get laid off? Outsourced? Do their wages go down? Do their unions get busted?

As it stands, we work exclusively with non-profit & quasi-governmental organizations that are unfunded or badly underfunded. The folks that I know doing service work around issues like elder housing, disaster recovery, habitat restoration, food assistance, violence prevention, literacy--stuff like that. For example, I work full-time (and then some) in a public school that is "underperforming" with kids who are "at risk" (gads, I hate that phrase.) I am not part of that school's budget or its budgeting process--they have the same money whether I'm there or not.

I agree whole-heartedly that it would be better to properly fund our schools--then there'd be no need for me to be there--but that's not reality as it is. It would take a massive shift in the country's priorities to fund the programs that are currently handled by volunteer service.

It would be madness to try to replace trained staff with volunteers. The term of service (as of now) is usually less than a year and there is a maximum number of terms allowed. It wouldn't make any sense to have to train an endlessly-rotating group of workers. Also, we have a very narrowly-defined scope of what work we can do. We don't do (as far as I've seen) work that replaces union workers. We're undertrained, underpaid spear-carriers.

Gee, I sure made the whole national service thing sound glamorous, didn't I?

[Gormy Cuss]

58. I'm in favor of Americorps, Teachfor America, and the like

There were locally recruited VISTA volunteers in my community, including some of my family members.
One of the problems that I see with mandatory national service is it would have a lot of deadwood -- 'volunteers' who won't put in that extra effort because they aren't committed to volunteerism. I doubt that mandatory participation would change the outlook of that many. Some people are just selfish.

Another concern that I have is that low income people would need substantially more supports than are offered in most programs --room and board, clothing, and transportation allowances for example. The stipend doesn't cut it for most of the volunteers that I've meet even when the volunteer has other financial resources available.

[yewberry]

62. Mandatory participation would definitely change that landscape.

I'm not sure how I feel about mandatory service. I know that, for my team, that kind of change would be incredibly difficult.

You're absolutely right about the kind of supports available to national service workers. I'm one of those low-income people, and the stipend is hilariously low. Sure, the ed award is a great thing, but that cuts zero ice when you're in line at the food bank hoping for healthy food. Getting volunteers is pretty hard once people realize that they can make the same money part-time at McDonald's.

[rocktivity]

109. DING DING DING! Tofunut, you're our grand prize winner!

I'm in my second year of national service...we work exclusively with non-profit & quasi-governmental organizations that are unfunded or badly underfunded...I work full-time (and then some) in a public school that is "underperforming"...I am not part of that school's budget or its budgeting process--they have the same money whether I'm there or not.

I agree whole-heartedly that it would be better to properly fund our schools...but ...It would take a massive shift in the country's priorities to fund the programs that are currently handled by volunteer service.

It would be madness to try to replace trained staff with volunteers...It wouldn't make any sense to have to train an endlessly-rotating group of workers. Also, we have a very narrowly-defined scope of what work we can do...We're undertrained, underpaid spear-carriers.

I rest my case. But look on the bright side--if national service was mandatory, Paris Hilton would have your job and you'd be in a foxhole. And don't you think the Rethuglicans would replace the untrained with more volunteers if they could get away with it?

Thank you for your response, which proves that there's nothing like underpaid, undertrained spear carrying to build someone's character and patriorism.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Kellyiswise]

26. Rangel is right about a LOT!! The voices that make the most sense

are riduculed and ignored until it is too late. Case in point: invasion of Iraq.

[Jcrowley]

38. With all due respect

this article is really just a minor tract in nationalistic fervor. What is being advocated here is the furtherance of the national security state and forcing folks into this service as well as pushing patriotism as something to be desired.

Sorry this whole article sounds very jingoistic.

This is the US Military Wet Dream of how to organize and condition our society, completely insane:
more border patrol; public transport security; EMTs; fire and police personnel. We need young people to work in the inner cities and the country's most rural sectors. The Vista and the Peace Corps programs also need inexpensive and talented personnel filled with a sense of patriotism and mission. A renewed draft should distribute personnel into each of these sectors for two years' service as warranted by the country's needs, not the draftee's desire.

The universal draft I imagine would begin with 10 weeks of basic training for everyone who is physically able. These people would learn a great deal about freedom (and the loss thereof), skills such as cardiopulmonary resuscitation, team work, maintenance activities for keeping a community vibrant, and so on.

Following the 10-week basic training period, draftees would receive orders for advanced individual training in one of the military services or one of the other service areas as listed above.

A sense of "Patriotism and Mission?" What is this? Sounds like Semper Fi let's get the American blood stirring. I doubt this was your intent but the language in this article is uber-americanistic-militarism. Strong borders, patriotic fervor, sense of meaning through "team work", more police, etc....

PATRIOTISM: A MENACE TO LIBERTY


WHAT is patriotism? Is it love of one's birthplace, the place of childhood's recollections and hopes, dreams and aspirations? Is it the place where, in childlike naivety, we would watch the fleeting clouds, and wonder why we, too, could not run so swiftly? The place where we would count the milliard glittering stars, terror-stricken lest each one "an eye should be," piercing the very depths of our little souls? Is it the place where we would listen to the music of the birds, and long to have wings to fly, even as they, to distant lands? Or the place where we would sit at mother's knee, enraptured by wonderful tales of great deeds and conquests? In short, is it love for the spot, every inch representing dear and precious recollections of a happy, joyous, and playful childhood?

If that were patriotism, few American men of today could be called upon to be patriotic, since the place of play has been turned into factory, mill, and mine, while deafening sounds of machinery have replaced the music of the birds. Nor can we longer hear the tales of great deeds, for the stories our mothers tell today are but those of sorrow, tears, and grief.

What, then, is patriotism? "Patriotism, sir, is the last resort of scoundrels," said Dr. Johnson. Leo Tolstoy, the greatest anti-patriot of our times, defines patriotism as the principle that will justify the training of wholesale murderers; a trade that requires better equipment for the exercise of man-killing than the making of such necessities of life as shoes, clothing, and houses; a trade that guarantees better returns and greater glory than that of the average workingman.

Gustave Hervé, another great anti-patriot, justly calls patriotism a superstition--one far more injurious, brutal, and inhumane than religion. The superstition of religion originated in man's inability to explain natural phenomena. That is, when primitive man heard thunder or saw the lightning, he could not account for either, and therefore concluded that back of them must be a force greater than himself. Similarly he saw a supernatural force in the rain, and in the various other changes in nature. Patriotism, on the other hand, is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit.

Indeed, conceit, arrogance, and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. Let me illustrate. Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others.

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Goldman/Writings/Anarchism/patriotism.html

[PsN2Wind]

43. Let them earn

their higher education by performing some national service, either military or a CCC or WPA type program. A little life experience before higher education would probably be beneficial to many of those leaving home and high school.

[rolleitreks]

45. Some excellent comments here, all negative.

Respect individual rights first and foremost and you can scarcely ever go wrong.

If our needs cannot be met by other means, why not encourage service with attractive rewards, such as student grants? I don't think there is any urgent need for involuntary service, just as there was no urgent need to invade Iraq, or renew the Patriot Act. What there is, is an opening for opportunistic politicians to exploit.

[Trillo]

54. I think Rangel's playing the bad cop of bad good cop.

The whole concept of Voluteer Military Force (the good cop) is a Big Fat Lie. If it was a volunteer force, people could simply leave when they received unpopular orders, making the president's job of raising an army much more difficult and likely only successful when true threats emerged.

If we had a true Volunteer Military Force, you'd see fewer wars because the power of deciding war would be somewhat more decentralized into the hands that actually must fight it. What I essentially mean is that going AWOL would no longer exist as a crime.

Here are some little factoids I saw a day or two ago at the Delta Democrat Online, the facts claimed to be from David Kennedy's essay “On the Military and American Democracy”:
1) In the general population of the 18- to 24-year-old age group, nearly 50 percent, have had some exposure to college education.
2) 18- to 24-year-olds in the military that have some exposure to college is 6.5 %.

The statistics seem to suggest that the rising costs of college education have helped balloon the numbers of the poor choosing military service, perhaps because they can't afford college and the military is one way to fund that: curiously, it was under President R. Reagan that community colleges (at least in California) started charging.

Therefore a partial measure, instead of a draft, is to fully fund college education for any that desire it and have shown some aptitude for it, and the other half of that prescription is to Stop Lying and make a truly volunteer military force, where going AWOL is normal, customary, and routine when a puppet president and corporatist shadow government start issuing 'unreasonable' orders that are nothing more than thinly veiled military enforcements of their profit centers.

[TahitiNut]

60. January 7, 2003: "McDermott Co-Sponsors Legislation to Reinstate the Draft"

McDermott Co-Sponsors Legislation to Reinstate the Draft
For Immediate Release - January 7, 2003

Washington, DC-- Congressman Jim McDermott has announced his co-sponsorship of Congressman Charles Rangel's legislation to reinstate the military draft and other forms of national service. The bill would require Americans between 18 and 26 to serve two years in the military or in civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security.

The bill, HR 163, is intended to ensure that the burden of military service is not borne disproportionately by the poor and numbers of minority groups.

Congressman McDermott commented that "I believe that if those who are pushing for war knew that their children might be required to share the burden of that war, there might be a greater willingness to work toward peace and a diplomatic solution. If, despite our best efforts, we end up in armed conflict, then fairness dictates that the sons and daughters of all classes participate."

"I am pleased to be an original co-sponsor of Congressman Rangel's bill, McDermott continued. "If we need to re-instate the draft in order to make the Administration consider the chilling consequences of war, so be it. I hope this will make them realize how important a diplomatic solution really is."

In underscoring the need for broad public discussion about committing troops to conflict, McDermott reiterated his view that it is time to consider a period of compulsory service for every young person in our country. "The draft ended thirty years ago, and since then the sense of obligation as the price of citizenship has faded," he said. I agree with Congressman Rangel that we need to find ways to share the sacrifices associated with committing our country to war, whether it's a campaign against illiteracy, poverty, hunger, or terrorism."

Congressman McDermott served as a Lieutenant Commander in the U.S. Navy Medical Corps at the Long Beach Naval Station in California from 1968 to 1970. Congressman Rangel served in the U.S. Army in Korea from 1948 to 1952.

http://www.house.gov/mcdermott/pr_draft.shtml

As a liberal, a democrat, and an independent, I support Congressman McDermott's stance 100%.

[lumberjack_jeff]

73. What the minority party does is a stunt. What the majority does is governance.

What's acceptable as a publicity-gathering, consciousness-raising stunt when you're out of power is entirely different when you run things.

It'd be interesting to hear his current views on a draft given the new political landscape.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

65. NS for the rich. As a pilot program, of course.

5500 years ought to even things out.

[Stinky The Clown]

68. Thanks for posting this ......

I'll take a helping of your popcorn if you have any left.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. Here yuo go

always willing to help

:popcorn:

[The Backlash Cometh]

69. Who is Paul Wagner, and why should I give a shit what he thinks?

[TahitiNut]

74. It's the first line of my post AND the bottom line of the article linked.

"Wagner is a professor of ethics at the University of Houston-Clear Lake."

It's hard to give much credence to anyone's opinion if they don't demonstrate basic reading comprehension skills which, of course, begin with reading itself. But, nonetheless, I seem to be able to muster it up in most cases. Silly me. :silly:

[The Backlash Cometh]

80. Let me repeat myself.

Who is Paul Wagner and why should I give a shit what he thinks?

I've been taught classes by professors who were attorneys, but just because they were attorneys, didn't convince me they were ethical or moral people. Or, just because someone is an Environmental lawyer doesn't mean he's going to be an advocate for the environment. In fact, it's often the other way around because that's where the money is.

So, why should someone who calls himself a professor of ethics convince me that he doesn't have a hidden agenda of some kind?

Nothing, but nothing is what it seems these days.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TahitiNut]

87. I've been adamantly against sending any troops to Iraq since before the illegal invasion

... but, for you, I'll make an exception.

[Lasthorseman]

76. I think not

Are these new "troops" going to have to wait four to six weeks for their "outsourced" equipment, or will they be compelled to buy their own?
Will they be getting the old uniforms or the new NAU uniforms?
www.spp.gov
Oh, and we are going to fund all of this with??????

[sandnsea]

89. 2 years commty service for 4 years college

Somebody had that as part of their president platform sometime or other...

[followthemoney]

92. A lot of national guard people sincerely want to help the people ...

of this nation during national emergencies. Like hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes etc.

I'll bet they wouldn't have been so eager to volunteer if they knew the government was a JOKE. And that they would be fighting a war, the purpose of which was to win elections by scaring the crap out of simple American citizens.

Volunteer. Great idea in an ideal world. Stupid when when you wake up and see where we really live.

[The River]

93. Absolutely!

Good for the Country,
Good for the Individual.

[Eric J in MN]

97. Being forced to patrol the Mexican border for two years...

...would be good for people?

[Eric J in MN]

96. People aren't slaves of the government.

They shouldn't be forced to go to Iraq or to patrol the Mexican border.

[The River]

106. Just Who is "The Government"?

Last time I looked, it was "We the People".

It's service to your fellow citizens.
It isn't slavery, it a job with training and benefits and an 8 hour work day.
True it is a mandatory job but so is going to school until a certain age.
Consider National Service as the final 2 years of your education.
Real life lessons in a real life setting without mommy or money to protect you.
I'm begining to see that far to many Americans
have confused freedom with selfishness.
Freedom requires a little work, a little sacrifice,
a little backback for all that feedom provides.
It's plain that those who equate it with government slavery
have never served anything but their own desires.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. Well said

and by the way, thank you for YOUR service

[wickerwoman]

100. I work in a field likely to be overrun by spoiled, sulky

pissed off, resentful national servicers who do a half-assed job and then disappear after two years.
No thanks... inner city kids deserve better.

[Jed Dilligan]

102. Great idea

Instead of paying people with skills who want to work, let's spend billions of dollars forcing teenagers to do jobs they don't want and don't know how to do. That'll teach 'em!

:sarcasm:

[hughee99]

103. Right about the need, wrong about the method...

Yes the country needs more border patrol, public transport security, EMTs, fire and police personnel, and people to work in inner cities and rural sectors. Unfortunately, it needs TRAINED people to do this. Students just out of high school, in many cases, lack both the maturity and the skills needed to do almost any of these jobs with the level of competence we expect. Yes, it will be much more economical to force young people into these jobs, but throwing untrained and likely unmotivated people into these jobs will in most cases create more problems then it solves. On the other hand, nothing will put and end to all this talk of the "Democratic leadership" like taking our newest voters and forcing them into two years of indentured servitude, so in that respect, at least it will be sure to benefit someone (the repukes).

If you want to get intelligent and motivated workers, you have to offer them something of value (like perhaps a G.I. Bill for volunteers). Then you have to put them in positions where they can succeed, not the kind of jobs (boarder patrol, EMT's, fire & police) that take years of training and a certain level of maturity to handle.

[Mythsaje]

107. That horse cadaver is starting to smell...n/t

[tomp]

111. hear, hear! nt

[porphyrian]

110. Forcing people into important jobs is always a bad idea.

Politicians need to quit their obsession with the stick and start using more carrots.