"National service" is about beating up on youth,

[Jed Dilligan]

and as such, it's basically the same as the War on Drugs.

You don't like the way young people in the country have become, so you come up with an extraordinarily expensive scheme to punish them. Maybe you think the punishment will actually change them, or maybe you just want to see them punished.

If the former is the case, you're just a fool. Beating up on people has never had the intended effect. Note Iraq. You can't "shock and awe" the youth of America out of their "selfishness and apathy" or whatever it is you see. The more you beat up on them, the more they will resent and resist you.

If the latter is the case--if you just want to punish for punishment's sake--you are a Nazi, or not much different from one.

That is all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Sorry to say this

but it is all about me and how I will have to actually do something to return the favor for education and oportunity

But you are right, it is the selfish, apathetic attitude of the coddled generation that many of us have noted.

By the way, given my dad actually survived the loving attentions of the Nazis... wow this must be a kind of a record for the Goodwin standard of internet discusion. You took all kinds of validity from your post, if it had one, by invoking nazis. congrats

[Jed Dilligan]

3. What about forcing resented people into labor at gunpoint

is un-Nazi-like?

[k_jerome]

5. what exactly is done at gunpoint? nt.

[Jed Dilligan]

7. Everything mandatory

Law enforcement in general. If the law says people have to report for some kind of service, it will have to be at gunpoint--particularly in my case.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Wow so you went to school at gun point? (EOM)

[Jed Dilligan]

13. No, my parents sent me at gunpoint.

They didn't mind doing it, but if they had, it ultimately would have been a law enforcement issue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. I see

carry on, it is, as I said above, all about me... no snse of community whatsoever.

Go on...

[Jed Dilligan]

17. Not with you, certainly

Last I checked, community only works if it is voluntary.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Yep right

really. whatever... this is a perfect example of why this country is on life support.

[alcibiades_mystery]

63. Hardly

Much of what happens in a community goes against people's desires. They behave in certain ways based on community norms. these are not voluntary. There are consequences (sometimes severe) for violating them.

[Jed Dilligan]

100. On the contrary, most norms are voluntary

or "repressive" in the sense that we follow them without even thinking about them.

This is verging into a philosophical discussion of free will.

[davidinalameda]

142. what about people on welfare having to look for work

while on benefits or people on unemployment having to look for work in order to keep getting benefits

I see nothing wrong with requiring kids to give something back to their community-they and the community will benefit in the long run

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. I hasve no idea what gunpoint he is talking about

after all NO Draft in US history (save quite possibly 1863 and the NY Riots) was done at gunpoint

[Jed Dilligan]

12. That's how resistance is met--at gunpoint.

Don't tell me no Vietnam-era draft resister was ever taken at gunpoint. I know it's not true.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Many of them had ot make a choice

one that you thankfully don't have to make, and that was resistance.

So we mean old geezers have rattled your cage by even theoretically putting the idea in your head that you might to have to think of others?

How mean of us... really... mea culpa

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. You seem to think it is sadistic

the problem is that the benefits of service cannot truly be put in dollars and sense Or are you telling me you can quantify pride?

I usre can't

Now from history... the WPA surely benefited the country... Hell one of the halls at the college I attended has a plaque outside, telling us it was built by the WPA. You think the WPA was fully volunteary by the way? It wasn't, I know great newsflash, but it benefited the nation and lcoal communities

Since that buidling was built in '35 thousands of students have walked its halls, and thousands of research hours have been spent in them. But I ams sure you kneow that.

[Jed Dilligan]

29. I never learned of WPA as forced labor

I thought it was a godsend for the unemployed in the Depression. People were lined up to do any kind of work. Do you mean to tell me the government sought out people who didn't want to work under these conditions.

I absolutely can put a dollar and "sense" amount to anything you want the government to pay for.

[nadinbrzezinski]

141. I gave yuo the answer in a sub thread

some people were FORCED into the rolls of the WPA... and this speaks to the lack of education people get these days, or rather how reserved this is for GRADUATE school

[HCE SuiGeneris]

23. Don't try to voice your viewpoint

Didn't you see the "That is all" dismissal at the end of the rant.

:(

[Jed Dilligan]

25. If you think you have a leg to stand on,

answer me how the benefits of national service could possibly outweigh the costs.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

42. You have seen and read them in many

of the various OP's posted here.

Bush's regime came about in large part from voter apathy and non-participation in self-governance. A program of national service under a *-like regime is obviously wrong. What is being advocated is invoking responsibility in managing our country in concert with political leaders... leaders that actually share the ideals of a democratic America.

[Jed Dilligan]

44. Bull-shit.

Bush's regime came about from Democrats scrambling to look like Republicans over the period of 20 years. If Gore had had anything inspirational to say to young people, they would have voted. Don't push the blame for shitty campaigning onto the electorate.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

48. As was stated earlier

you do not want discourse. You want to rant louder than anyone else. Gluck. That is all.

[Jed Dilligan]

49. I do want discourse,

but whenever I bring up something that people have no argument against, they post basically what you just said.

That seems to be all.

[AndyTiedye]

55. Bush's Regime Came About As A Result of ELECTORAL FRAUD

Most people voted for the other guy, or at least tried to. Both times.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

65. I am not discounting that voter fraud occurred...

I am in agreement that our black box voting is depriving us of a "real" election. I do believe that if national service (not just military) was implemented (under a much less corrupt gov't), that this service would effectively increase the voter turnout and willingness of the people to participate in their own governance.

[AndyTiedye]

79. But It Would Tend to Inspire the Citizenry to Turn Out Said Government

If we Democrats propose it after having taken over Congress, the voters will turn on us.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

84. As is abundantly evidenced here in this

thread. However, My -- belief -- is that it would strengthen our democratic form of governance.

[bpeale]

116. the electorate

the electorate has acted like a bunch of apathetic, self-centered TAKERS for more than 20 years. there is nothing wrong in requiring a mandatory 2 years of military service of the citizenry. it teaches pride and discipline. it might surprise you to learn that you may think you are disciplined, but until you have served in the military, you don't know the meaning of discipline. you learn discipline and are subject to discipline. having everyone serve a mandatory 2 years of service at age 18, even in peacetime, assures that we will have adequate trained citizenry to fight if it should come to a war, be it here on our land or elsewhere. many, many countries have mandatory 2 years of military service. its part & parcel of living in a free society.

registration to vote should also be mandatory at age 18. and everyone who does not vote should be fined for non-participation in the electoral process ... $2,000 for each offense of not voting. time to force people to get involved in their own freedom.

FREEDOM IS NOT FREE. there is a price to be paid for living in a free society. if we have to force you to get involved, then so be it.

[Jed Dilligan]

148. Proving the apparently deletable point about sadism,

thanks.

[HughBeaumont]

160. You mean like this?

I don't know the meaning of discipline? I don't smoke, drink, do drugs, cheat on my wife or kill other humans out of anger. Last I checked, I don't think many who are currently enlisted in the service can make that same claim and I learned none of that being on the hazed side of a DI. So please spare me the bullshit that citizens are apathetic and soft. Thinking for yourself requires more discipline than anything.

[JVS]

135. The young people were supposed to be swept up in Liebermania and vote for Gore!

[TahitiNut]

68. Yep. It's the sound of a closed mind.

I've heard their same old tired talking points for over forty years. Wrong then. Wrong now.
It seems callow, inexperiencd youth picks up discarded old talking points solely because they "taste good" to a sugar-addicted palate.


It seems Lord Acton (see quote in my sig) proves his wisdom yet again.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jed Dilligan]

154. So you like to scuba dive in the South Pacific

I think you owe more to this country than I do.

[sniffa]

185. so, you Like to post on message boards?

i think you owe more to this country than i do.

[LeftyMom]

50. Since when do kids in this country get education and opportunity? Aren't those rights anyhow?

The few who do are the ones who will be able to get out of it.

[Jed Dilligan]

52. Don't use reason

This is about Pride in the Nation, dammit! Soil and Blood! Exalting the Fatherland!

[LeftyMom]

60. Cheap labor!

:patriot:

[TahitiNut]

91. Sure. And "kids" have 'right' to be fed - and choose the menu.

And "kids" have a 'right' to maid service ... and diaper service ... and :eyes:

I wonder when those "kids" are ever going to grow up.

[LeftyMom]

92. Certainly not while the government is controling their movents rather than treating them as adults

Just a thought.

[TahitiNut]

94. So, let's remove all the stop signs and speed limit signs and traffic lights.

Just a thought. :eyes:

[Name removed]

101. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftyMom]

103. I think you are missing my point.

One of the best ways (and possibly the only reliable one) to get young adults to grow up is to get them out in the wold of bills and adult responsibility. Delaying that a few years isn't healthy, we already live in a society where that responsibility is put off and many young people act out as a result, even when that delay is for their own educational benefit. Now imagine that they're forced into labor for a few years and imagine how much they'll act out. Teenagers don't respond well to having their time wasted- remember "senioritis"?

The only way to avoid it would be a level of discipline equivalent to that of that in military service, and they have enough problems even with volunteers, the UCMJ and the ability to screen out drug users, etc. A mandatory national service program for 18-20 year olds would be deeply resented and would quickly become like high school but with more drinking, fighting and fucking and even less work getting done.

[1monster]

183. So, what did you do to repay the favor of a free education and opportunity?

I've heard this same BS since I was a kid. Every generation wrings its hands over the younger dissolute, lazy, selfish, delinquent generation. Even Socrates had something to say about it.

I'll tell you, as a teacher, that the kids today are NOT getting even half as good an education as we baby boomers did and the opportunities that were there even ten years ago are not and won't be there for our kids (or us).

I remember hearing that the union auto workers in Detroit were making $22 or so and hour back in the late sixties or early seventies (Doug Fraizer was the union prez, if I remember correctly). They are not making that much today even thought the cost of living is so much higher now than then.

I work with kids every day and I see them beaten into the ground by standardized tests that are secretly graded by people they take off the street and "train" and pay them just over minimum wage to do so.

A little over a week ago, I had a senior come into my class in tears because she had failed the FCAT by ONE point and thus would not graduate. In order to get a high school diploma, if she doesn't pass in February, she will have to go to adult education classes and still pass a flawed and secretly graded test.

I've seen too too many kids drop out of school because they will never get a diploma under the current rules.

The kids today work as hard as I did when I was in high school. There are kids in my classes who are working not just one after school job, but two. Many of them come in wiped out tired and know that their time in school isn't going to yeild them a high school diploma or an opeing on a good job. Many are so discouraged that they just give up.

I don't think they should really have to repay anyone for an education system that sets them up for failure.

I'm sick of hearing about how selfish and lazy most kids are today. It wasn't true when I was a kid and it isn't true today.

[Warpy]

2. Yeah, and some of us old geezers recognize just that

but don't worry, the stupid War on Drugs was originally aimed at us 40 years ago and now that we're getting old and everything hurts, it's aimed at us again.

Many of us fought hard to end the draft and we finally won that battle. Now the ones who got sucked into the military and LIKED IT are forcing you to fight that battle again.

I just hope you win it again.

That is all.

[Jed Dilligan]

4. Thank you!

I hope that the youth of this gutted country will actually refuse to serve in greater numbers than last time.

[Dems Will Win]

6. National Service is such a crock

There are 3.75 million young people turn 18 each year.

HOW IN THE WORLD COULD THE GOVERNMENT HIRE 7.5 MILLION PEOPLE EACH YEAR FOR 2 YEAR STINTS???

IT'S ABSURD!

[Jed Dilligan]

10. But what better use for 150 billion a year

than shaping up all these spoiled, apathetic young people?

:sarcasm:

[BlackVelvet04]

121. Can you believe this shit? What was all of our hard work

for? Along comes a bunch of dumb asses who think the draft is a good thing because they didn't live through the horror of that shit that we did.

[Warpy]

129. They're selling it to idealists whose history books didn't teach

them SHIT about that period of our country's history. They're selling it as some sort of feel-good community service thing.

WE know exactly where that's going.

We just have to pound it into those idealistic and ignorant young skulls.

NO DRAFT, NOT EVER.

[BlackVelvet04]

130. I'm so sick of these people

who are always trying to make other people "better".......maybe they need to look at themselves and leave other people to do the same.

[EdwardM]

8. Forced National Service isn't viable in anyway.

It will be a complete disaster. It will make it much harder for teen mothers to raise their kids. It will be easy for corporations to exploit the program for cheap labor. Also, it will end freedom for all 18-20 year olds.

[Jed Dilligan]

14. Exactly, it's just universal prison

You didn't mention the dormitory rapes or the kids shot while trying to escape.

[niallmac]

19. What is your view of a citizens obligation? Any?

Paying taxes take care of it?
How about 'voluntary' National Service?
Do you see any up side to any kind of
citizen service endeavor?

Myself, I wish there was an alternative to prove loyalty
besides being a part of the military.

[Jed Dilligan]

21. Voluntary service is fine

I've done all kinds of volunteer work, though I would be leery of doing it for the Federal government directly. Local government and some non-profits are considerably less corrupt.

Taxes could be spent better and probably should be higher.

I see no upside to anything mandatory. The costs would massively outweigh the benefits and the proposed psychological effect would backfire.

[niallmac]

119. Well I understand your position a little better.

My days harken back to JFK and the Peace Corps. All I ask this modern nation
of ours is to offer our youth as attractive a package for positive works as we
do for the machine of war. I think one thing the Dems and progressives have
offered over the years is a positive vision and a calling for people to do better.

This war rut the U.S. is in is a road to nowhere except for the Halliburton bunch.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. There are ways to prove it beyond military service

such as serving in police, fire, EMS, and hospital services

Volunteering to go down to hard hit areas to teach.

Even public service...

I fear our friend here doesn't believe in any of them either.

On edit some of the programs set in the 1990s to help people do this, have been defunded

[Jed Dilligan]

24. Never said anything about volunteering

It's the mandatory part I object to. I'm sure if there was a way to make a decent living doing community-service work, millions of young people would join on their own volition.

And please, don't call me your friend when you clearly mean the opposite.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. So did many WPA workers, they objected to it

as well... they still did it.

Why are you so different and special

[Jed Dilligan]

28. Please document

I didn't know anyone was forced into WPA work.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. They were, in some sections of the country

Here is a reference in scholarly journal

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0032-3195(199624/199724)111:4%3C567:WWD%3E2.0.CO;2-0

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/couch.works.progress.administration

And I could go on

I was fairly shocked to learn in that in some areas of the contry people were forced, for their own good, to play, but they were.

[Jed Dilligan]

39. One link doesn't work and the other

doesn't refer to involuntary service. Want to copy the abstract from the JSTOR link for me?

[nadinbrzezinski]

143. Wel,l you can go look for them links youserfl

as is getting it from the abstract is a no-no per the rules of DU.

Now as I said, you can go LOOK for specialized work, but if yuo search for it, you will find it... free clue, deep south

[BlackVelvet04]

124. Because it's a FREE friggin' country......

or it claims to be.

[niallmac]

120. I don't know. Read the OPs reply. I agree with you as I have

always migrated to just such occupations. I have been EMS, Paramedic, Fire Fighter and now Physician Assistant
in a VA Hospital.
I almost served in the V Nam era but I had two brothers who enlisted first and
started writing home threatening me with family banishment if I joined
the military as they felt the war was BS. After that it was too late for me
as I started reading, thinking, marching...oh well. Here I am.

[BlackVelvet04]

123. Prove loyalty? To what?

I pay taxes and obey the law. I volunteer for things I believe in. You want more than that? Tough shit.

[Cerridwen]

30. It's about earning the right to be a citizen...or as one poster said

"how dare you suck up the rights afforded you as a citizen without first paying for the right to be a citizen" (paraphrase)

If you'll watch some of the information bandied about regarding "illegal immigration," you'll see the same underlying message; only citizens should have rights of citizenship and only those who have earned the right to be a citizen should be allowed citizenship.

Add to that hierarchical thinking which rates some forms of paying for citizenship above others and you'll get a pro-military-only-national-service versus anti-military-only-national-service debate. Mix in a couple of questions of what qualifies as "national service;" i.e., paying taxes is/is not enough, serving in the Peace Corps is/is not enough, working for a political party is/is not enough, how about having babies who will in turn become good citizens (by someone's definition) being/not being enough to have earned the category citizen and the rights included. How much sacrifice, if any, "should" be involved in "paying ones dues" for the right to be a citizen? What constitues sacrifice? Etc. I think you get the idea.

It reminds me a bit of discussions about hazing and paying ones dues - some justifications for each are, "well, I had to go through it, everyone else should, too" - "how dare someone get a free pass that I wasn't given?", etc.

So, are we citizens due to the "accident" of our birth occuring on U.S. soil; or should we have to prove we have "the right stuff" to deserve citizenship and the attached rights thereof?

I could swear we have a document somewhere that clarifies the U.S. position; but, hey, I've been wrong before.

~Cerridwen

P.S. Every generation experiences some form of a "generation gap." I'm sad to see it appear here at DU.

[Jed Dilligan]

31. Good, clear-headed explanation

I think the dues are taxes and military service when the country is actually invaded. Otherwise, it's all voluntary (or should be).

[Cerridwen]

37. Now, let's really muddy the waters...

what about those who are unable to serve in the military...due to physical or psychological reasons? What about those unable to pay taxes due to an inability to work...again, there may be many reasons for this?

And what about those who have "paid their dues" for citizenship yet are denied the rights citizenship affords them? Do they get their "dues" back? My first thought is of homeless men and women who served in Vietnam; I'm sure there are plenty of other examples.

Do we deny the rights of citizenship to those who are, as yet, too young to have paid their dues?

What about those who are denied the rights of citizenship based on race, class, gender, sexual orientation etc.? Do they have to pay "dues" for rights they don't have?

I guess that's enough mud for one day.

:evilgrin:

[spoony]

87. Ah, but your "mud" makes it clearer

Perhaps we can all get "rights accounts" where we can earn "dues dollars." I don't know if we'd get them all at once though or if you have to choose what to save up for first.

Good stuff, Cerridwen :)

[Cerridwen]

90. Thanks.

Hope the "mud" works for others as well. :D

[Bill McBlueState]

35. yeah, those documents...

But old documents that lay out the United States' position on things like inalienable rights don't seem to carry much weight these days. They're just quaint pieces of parchment. With f's instead of double s's.

[Cerridwen]

40. Sure seems that way, doesn't it?

And even those documents required the 13th, 14th, 15th, 19th and 26th amendments to get some of those rights to all U.S. citizens, at least down to the age of 18.

*sigh*

[Hamlette]

32. wow

I "came of age" in a similar time in US history (Vietnam, Watergate). We hated the draft but not alternative service. My heros were my friends who went into VISTA and the Peace Corp. They got much more out of the experience than they gave (they would agree). Which is not to diminish the contribution they made.

Of course, I was taught to believe "those to whom much is given, much is expected." And we were not rich (bottom rung of middle class in the good years). I don't get how it is Kennedy could inspire my generation with "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" but not anyone else.

Society pays for your schooling for 12 years asks you to work for the community for 2 years at the end. I don't see what the harm could be unless you're really in a hurry to start birthing babies and making gobs of money.

Funny, I don't feel like a Nazi, nor do the countries that have conscription look like totalitarian states to me. You know, like Denmark, Finland, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden

[Jed Dilligan]

41. Involuntary is the problem

I'm well beyond the years people are talking about, so my own stake is not the issue.

A universal national service program would cost so much more than the worth of its accomplishments, for one thing. More importantly, though, Americans shouldn't be forced to do anything. Education isn't a gift to the individual by society, it is society doing the right thing for itself.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

45. Cost ?? in what terms?

Money is not the only measurement of effective government.

[Jed Dilligan]

47. If you're talking about employing 7.5 million 18-19 year olds,

cost is a very serious issue. You're talking about at least $150 billion a year just to support them and administer the program. It is absolutely immoral to spend that money on "character building" when so many other areas of government are underfunded--often with great humanitarian costs.

[SoCalDem]

53. and Iraq is costing us?? how much??

just sayin':)

It's all about priorities, really.

Do we want a society that wanders into one bludnering war after another, squandering national treasure and spilling buckets of blood?

or

do we want a society that at least attempts to honor ALL citizens of that country. How? By treating them equally (or at least trying to).

It starts at the grassroots level, by asking participation of ALL citizens.

People who share common experiences, FEEL part of society, and feel that they earned their benefits. It eliminates the "master-supplicant" relationship.

THAT's what was behind the WPA and other programs. Men (and some women) did positive things that benefitted ALL of us, and in return, they got a paycheck..along with their dignity. They EARNED that money.

A nation OWES its citizens something.. If not , then what makes us a nation? That said, we owe each other too. It's what glues us together.

Are we just a bunch of accident-of-geography people who must endure each other, or are we a collection of people who see the wisdom of sharing the benefits we can all have if we work together?

I prefer the latter.

[Jed Dilligan]

61. I vote for neither

I vote for a nation where we have a choice to associate with each other or not. Where we can disagree, follow different gods, take various paths in life and not hurt each other over it. Any attempt to "unify" this people will backfire--it will end up with us killing each other over our differences. I prefer the idea of voluntary participation in the public sphere.

[SoCalDem]

72. Did you just graduate from TPU?

Talking Point University?

You seem to have an "answer" for just about everything..:evilgrin:

Look..

The US is not Utopia..never was..never will be.,

But as long as we all have to share the same space, we might as well try not to stab each other in the back . When we all do well, we all do well :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

147. We are barely alive

right now because we demand nothing in return for citizenship.

Pray tell me, did you know the people down in Louisiana are still living in trailers? What is even worst, people in Florida from Floyd are still living in trailers

These events and how we don't respond to them any longer are a reflection of the me generation. If it does not affect me, I don't care... and that attitude is killing this country.'

In fact, my brother in law has argued that the country was in life support in 1996 and it died in 2000. We are both waiting to see what rises from the ashes, but it is no longer the US of A. One reason for that, the lack of civic pride, let alone civic virtue. If you need a translation of what those two terms mean, you truly missed a whole education. And you know what? Franklin was right, we were going to keep a republic as long as we chose to, but Jefferson was also aware that in order to keep it, you needed to participate. You refuse to, because it is all about me.

I don't blame you for it. You grew up in a system that enabled that and was pushed forth by those who love to atomize the country.

You know what? Mission accomplished, and very successfully as well.

[Jed Dilligan]

156. You do realize

the government was TURNING AWAY volunteers during Katrina?

I love how you love the government so much, you blame every mess it makes on the people...

[nadinbrzezinski]

177. I know hat the governemtn was doing

far better than many people here.

But here is the great news flash for you, the givernment IS US... it is the government of the people, by the peiople and for the people.

You seem to have forgotten that. What is worst, you did not fully adress anything about civic virtue and pride, and that son is the problem.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

74. The MOST important argument for service

is made by SoCalDem "People who share common experiences, FEEL part of society, and feel that they earned their benefits. It eliminates the "master-supplicant" relationship."

Democracy demands participation and inherently this participation would entail some sacrifice on behalf of the individual.

[TahitiNut]

93. Exactly.

But some want to have it ALL their (dystopian) way or they'll hold their breath and turn blue. (No pun intended.)

[BlackVelvet04]

132. And then are those that think they know what is best for everyone

else - always convinced of their own moral and intellectual superiority.

[TahitiNut]

138. Mote. Log.

:shrug:

[Hamlette]

82. is it cost efficient to educate us all?

seems like that's pretty expensive, do you have a cost benefit analysis of that?

[Jed Dilligan]

96. Absolutely, or rather

it would be if we actually did it.

[Hamlette]

133. well, there you go, let's stop and save some money!

and I can only assume, given your answer, this whole thread was sarcasm.

Which is a great relief to me. I was having a hard time believing anyone, let alone a liberal, felt as strongly as you do. I have to admit for awhile there I thought maybe you honestly believed you owed nothing but money to your community.

good one.

[aquart]

168. We force children to go to school. Give that up, too?

My mom forced me to clean up my room. She shouldn't have?

A universal service program would give our spoiled, worthless darlings a sense of being part of a great nation, instead of simply the users of it. It would give them an awareness of the different parts of this country that their gated communities have kept them insulated from. I wouldn't allow any young person to serve nearer than 600 miles from home. Send the city kids to the country and the country kids to the cities. Give them a vision of the grandeur and squalor and their place in it.

A universal service program should be a required part of any able-bodied American's education. Because that IS society "doing the right thing for itself."

[Cerridwen]

46. "Cradle to grave" social services...

I believe that each of the five countries you listed, repay their populace for mandatory national service with "cradle to grave" social services.

The U.S. doesn't take care of the vets it has now, much less those without some form of official national service.

[Hamlette]

81. if the vets were "us" maybe we'd do better by them

just saying

[Cerridwen]

86. I'd like to see "us" prove it to the "we" who are vets now before

we assume "we'll" have better done by "us."

[Hippo_Tron]

54. We pay society back for public education when we start paying taxes

We also are going to get to pay for the Iraq war because of Bush's borrow and spend policy and his looting of the social security funds.

And the Peace Corps was voluntary, not mandatory.

[Occulus]

167. My 'community' won't let me get married

My 'community' won't let me have more than 1000 legal benefits of marriage.

My 'community' won't let me serve in the military- and might beat me up if I try.

Members of my 'community' want to kill me and people like me.

So

I think you'll understand when I tell my 'community' to kneel before me and open up.

(I'm not paying for jack shit. In fact, I deserve a fucking REFUND.)

[SoCalDem]

33. We are not the Libertarian States of America

The US is one of the FEW nations that do NOT "require" some sort of national "service"..

Look at how many young people start on the wrong path at an early age. Why? because MOST of them cannot continue their educations, and are eager to "start their lives".

My guess is that most of them see that $7.50 an hour job as pretty good, and they think .."Hey, why not?"..

The rub is this..

at 18,19,20,21, they are still probably living with Mom & Dad, so of course they can "get aong" on the pittance they take home, but sooner or later they will "meet someone" and want to be on their own.

By that time, they probably still have car payments, and some debts they racked up, so they start their marriage/relationship by combining two young people with debts, and then often add some kids to the mix soon after. They have set themselves on the path to little more than "head-above-water" status for the rest of their lives.

A national service for 18-21 would not be a bad thing at all. Some might choose military, and that option should have some "perks" added to it so that enough would choose it. but the other options would also provide some self-satisfaction and training too.

At the end of the national service, however many years you did the service, would be matched with FREE college (state college) for an equal amount of years.

For the kids who get scholarships to college immediately after high school they could defer their service .

This would start filling our colleges with American kids who , at 21, might be ready to learn, and would have some life-experience that would surely help them decide what they want to do with their lives.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

38. Great retort ! n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

43. Thanks for the view from suburbia

There are also large segments of the population where those young people are working to support their families (both older and younger generations) for whom forced service would be a disaster.

[Hippo_Tron]

59. I'm 19, in college, certainly ready to learn...

And have a fairly good idea of what I want to do with my life. On the other hand I know some 21 year olds who are in college and not in college that just drink their brains out.

But I'll admit that you have some good points.

Here's the way I see it. Your proposal for free college would probably get nearly everyone who wants to go to college to do national service. Yes, the uber rich would still sit out, but they are far and few. Almost everyone I know says that they could use some extra money when it comes to college costs. Plus if all of your friends are doing it, then I wouldn't see the need to go straight to college.

If it is well promoted and there are good benefits, then there's no need to make it mandatory. Unless of course you're interested in punishing the Paris Hiltons of the world, which I am not.

[SoCalDem]

67. Super-rich will ALWAYS wiggle out of anything they don't want to do

No legislation will force them to comply. They can always "go elsewhere"..they have the resources.

I'm talking about the middles & lower middles and the ones under them.

Those are often the ones who get tossed to the curb, only to be castigated for their "choices" later on.

People WILL procreate, whether they have the financial means or not. Once those kids are on the scene, the die has been cast, and most people don't "advance" much after they start their families and the expenses start piling up.

It's critical to get to the 18-21 yr olds BEFORE they set the course for the rest of their lives. Lots of poor kids in small communities see nothing beyond their own little commmunity, and just follow the paths of their parents.
It's not like the "old days" when Dad could get the kids good union jobs. These days it;s likely to be a shitty job with no benefits.

There are MILLIONS of kids who will be in terrible financial shape within a few years of graduating from high shcool..

and the "lucky" ones who DO get to college, might be graduating from college with $20K of debt.

That's what's "dumbing down" America

[nadinbrzezinski]

146. So Cal the average debt today for a college graduate

is closer to 40K, and if you go to gradauate school you are talking over 100K

[AndyTiedye]

78. What You Are Proposing Would Be Quite Popular AS A VOLUNTARY PROGRAM

The US is one of the FEW nations that do NOT "require" some sort of national "service"..

Good for us! There are actually more non-conscription nations than you think though.

Look at how many young people start on the wrong path at an early age. Why? because MOST of them cannot continue their educations...

So fix THAT problem.

A national service for 18-21 would not be a bad thing at all.

You want to take 3 or 4 years of their lives, and for what?

At the end of the national service, however many years you did the service, would be matched with FREE college (state college) for an equal amount of years.

Our state university systems would have to undergo significant expansion to handle so many students. Of course many would still attend private universities, and would not gain any benefit from the program.

For the kids who get scholarships to college immediately after high school they could defer their service.

That permits them not to interrupt their education, but it leaves them unable to use their newly-learned skills for up to four years after graduating as they are performing "national service" which is generally unrelated to their training.

This would start filling our colleges with American kids who , at 21, might be ready to learn, and would have some life-experience that would surely help them decide what they want to do with their lives.

I thought most people around here were complaining that they were too busy learning to get out and protest. ;)



(edit: fixing the quoting. Why do we have to use div class="excerpt" on DU instead of quote like everywhere else?)

[BlackVelvet04]

125. Or our colleges MIGHT be empty because a whole generation

got killed in another Vietnam.

[eallen]

137. There is more Constitutional justification to draft for military service than non-military service.

The Constitution gives Congress the power to raise armies and to provide for a navy. During WW I, when the draft was challenged on 13th amendment grounds, the Supreme Court decision supporting it explicitly turned on the importance of national defense. But the 13th amendment comes more into play with regard to some generic service. I don't know how the court would rule on that issue.

[Bill McBlueState]

36. the problem with national service

is that which types of service qualify as acceptable will be decided by old, rich, white Christians. I suspect the choices available will reflect the prejudices of that group.

[Jed Dilligan]

51. This is a big part of my concern

I hate to see what agenda the government as it stands would set for all those millions of young people.


In reality, it would probably be just a great big holding tank.

[Xithras]

56. National service is a communist principle

I am making no claims as to wheter that is a good thing or a bad thing, I simply believe that everyone should understand what we're actually talking about. Unlike socialism, which is government control of production, communism is the control of production AND labor for the benefit of the nation. When we're discussing national service, we're essentially talking about applying someones labor to service that the government deems to be socially or economically important. I.e., communism.

I once pointed that out to a reich-winger who was advocating mandatory military service, and his head nearly exploded.

[BlackVelvet04]

126. thank you.....

what part of that don't people get?

[bobbolink]

57. poor widdle kids...

:rofl:

[Jed Dilligan]

64. You'd spend hundreds of billions of dollars

just to make their lives harder? I thought you used to be homeless--and yet you can't see how foolish an idea this is?

[bobbolink]

70. .

:rofl:

[Jed Dilligan]

107. I can use smilies too!

:eyes: :puke: :crazy: :wtf: :boring:

[pinto]

58. I think the discussion about some form of national service is a good one to have.

I understand the points made about mandatory service - yet there well may be other options that would be less heavy handed. And would not necessarily mean military service. For starters, tuition payments in exchange for a two year "stint" in some national service capacity...?

iirc, the government currently provides tuition support to MD's in exchange for an agreement to practice in rural/under served areas post graduation/residency. Something along those lines might work on a broader scale, imo.

[Jed Dilligan]

62. No objections there,

it's the mandatory and universal part that's either folly or sadism, depending on who's talking.

[pinto]

71. I see your point. Though "sadism" is a little OTT, imo, "folly" is

worth a second look, in that the personal benefit up front for national service ought to be a sufficient inducement to help ensure a successful program. Altruism is hard to count on, in and of itself. Thanks.

[acmejack]

98. Sadism? Give me break with the rhetoric man!

My God! Like they are going to make you eat gruel and work 18 hours a day clad in rags in the sub-zero weather lugging hundred pound stones! Oh, don't forget the floggings...

[Jed Dilligan]

102. If you want everyone to line up and follow orders

to satisfy your own sense of whatever, you're a sadist in my book. Never mind the humanitarian nightmare the implementation would be--the thought structure that says "These lazy kids need to be whipped into shape" is sadistic.

[acmejack]

118. So you are the rebellious youth & I am wasting my time?

In reality, isn't this actually all about what you personally don't wish to do? I would be willing to bet you have never had to do anything in your life that you didn't want to do? The National Character is only a matter for debate, not a real concern to me. I am as you have noted, old and decrepit.

Aren't you even a little bit curious why so many people who served are supportive of national service, especially non military.

[Jed Dilligan]

150. Oh wow, that hurt, you really nailed me.

:sarcasm:

If you really want to know, which I doubt...

I'm 32. The only mandatory service I could face is a skills draft. Probably for a war against Iran. To that I can only say, I'm not going in the military or to prison and I am a strong supporter of the Second Amendment. Draw your own inferences.

I have been forced to work by the government before... 90 hours for the heinous crime of sleeping in public when I had no home. Clearly, if this was supposed to invoke some sort of sense of communal responsibility in me, it backfired.

Believe me, I've read enough here to satisfy my "curiosity" about why people support national service. Here's the rundown:

--idiots who think the problems of the country can be fixed by unskilled, underpaid teenagers
--assholes who think that because they were subject to an unfair and evil policy, the young today should to
--starry-eyed idealists who believe that being subject to forced labor will cause young people to vote Democratic
--even starrier-eyed idealists who think the children of the rich would be subject to a draft

Let me know if I've left anyone out.

[acmejack]

158. You covered me.

I'll plead to three of four. I don't give a shit which way they vote, that i a really laughable reason Jed you are really reaching, if you think that is an actual reason that ran through what you apparently think is my teeny little brain, you are sadly mistaken!

I give up on you, though! Nothing I can say to you is going to get through to you, it is apparent that you don't have any sense of community or societal responsibility. Gen X indeed. I obviously can't debate something with an individual who is determined not to hear a word I said and resorts to calling me an idiot and an asshole. No style points for you, youngster.

[yewberry]

69. There are other options that are less heavy-handed.

The programs exist.

AmeriCorps, VISTA, TeachForAmerica--all provide some tuition after a term of sevice. We do community-based work around literacy, homelessness, poverty, habitat restoration, hunger, lots of things. No military or armed service. These programs are defunded just about every year, but we're still out there.

[pinto]

75. Yep.

:thumbsup:

[gaspee]

66. Yeah Sweden

Is sure oppresive to their youth, as is Switzerland, both countries with mandatory militray service.

[Lars39]

73. They don't have our 'leaders' or the leaders' needs to find warm bodies

for PNAC.

[Cerridwen]

76. See #46...their citizens receive something for their mandatory

service. Their countries, as far as I know, don't have PNACers running around starting wars of imperialism on the backs of their citizens.

[BlackVelvet04]

127. How many Vietnams have they had? n/t

[JVS]

136. Back when Karl XII invaded Russia and was beaten by Peter the Great at Poltava...

the Swedes stopped going around kicking ass so much.

The Swedes kicked ass so badly during the 30 Years war that to this day, Swedish Shutters means prison bars and children who won't come inside from play are told that the Swedes will get them in German.

[HughBeaumont]

162. Doesn't mean it's going to work here.

Sweden and Switzerland aren't run by fascist, oil-and-markets-addicted neo-con madmen. A draft would give them license to a personal empire, conducting whatever VietRaq they so choose for decades.

Give these people their way and the world would be one big radiated crater. And you would be underneath the largest pile of debris.

[ecstatic]

77. Not in favor of a draft, but national volunteering service,

in a range of domestic activities, doesn't sound too bad to me. We've become too much of a "me, me, me" society. It's time for us to start looking out for our neighbors again.

[nam78_two]

80. Yep/nt

[MUSTANG_2004]

85. Plenty of volunteering going on

Here's some interesting statistics on how many Americans volunteer:

http://www.usafreedomcorps.gov/about_usafc/newsroom/announcements_dynamic.asp?ID=1350

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. Yep

definitely

[Bjorn Against]

163. I agree, but it should not just be limited to young adults

I think that some people are making a mistake by limiting this national service program to the young. There is absolutely no reason that able-bodied adults could not participate as well.

I do agree that this National Service Program should NOT be about military service, other than certain National Guard duties such as cleaning up after a natural disaster.

[lcordero2]

83. !!!!!!!!!!

Nobody in their right (or left) mind supports this

If I had a kid I would not trust the govt to watch over him or her, and especially after spending us into oblivion and having a bunch of scandals like the Franklin Cover Up.

I don't like looking at a human face and I'm not going to force a kid to look at people that he or she detests either.

on edit: one more thing, a kid owes nothing to a country or community that takes great pains in order to destroy that kid and just make that kid's life miserable in the first place.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

88. This is the whole point

You are saying the gov't is "them". We need to make it "us". This is done with participation ffs!

[lcordero2]

95. BULLSHIT n/t

[SoCalDem]

99. parents do not "own" their "children"..and once one is 18

they are "legally" adults.. adults who "should" be able to stand on their own.
Americans have infantilized their offspring, and enabled them to remain "children".
NO PARENT wants their child to be endangered, no matter how old they are, BUT as part of a country, we all need to be "at risk" equally.

That's what keeps us OUT of wars.. When there are "willing" mercenaries who will do it for the money or the benefits, it gives the rest of us a false sense of security, and leads us into disastrous wars like we have now.

As long as our own family is not touched by it, we can sit back and slap a few magnets on our cars, and feel "invested" in the war-effort.

ALL young men were at risk in Viet Nam and we ENDED it.

The mercenary warfare we have now will go on, ad infinitum, if we have no shared stake in it.

What have we done as a country except throw money at it?

(Money paid to mercenaries, to military contractors, war-machine producers, replacement "leaders" paid by US)

[Jed Dilligan]

104. You can't have it both ways

On the one hand, you bemoan the "infantilization" of youth. On the other hand, you want them in an envirnoment where they have no freedom and are forced to follow orders. Is it hard to see the contradiction there?

And YOU ended the Vietnam war? I think the Vietcong ended it--by winning.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

108. So, you prefer an

entitlement form of gov't. "Paid my taxes, I've done my part". Play right into the hands of a corporate controlled system currently in place. That is sad.

[Jed Dilligan]

109. And you prefer

a system of "pay more taxes to make people think they have done their part."

Actually, let's talk about taxes. Don't you think the rich should shoulder the responsibility for fixing the country?

I don't support 99% of what the government of this country does--why would I think serving it is my responsibility? It's my responsibility to work AGAINST what the government is doing.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

111. I agree... work against this corrupt goverment

and invest in a better government. It is not enough to just be working against the government.

[pinto]

113. Thanks again for your opinions. Out of curiosity, what's the 1% you support?

It's a serious question, not an offhand comment, by any means. I assume I'm a little older than you (I was draft age during VietNam, fwiw) and I feel a little out of touch with some of the opinions that younger men and women voice here (though some are *very* familiar and the passion is likewise.) Thanks.

[Jed Dilligan]

149. EPA, NOAA, OSHA, Census Bureau, NIH,

USPS, maybe a few others that aren't totally corrupt. Look where Bush has cut funding and you can find the parts of the federal government I support.

[lcordero2]

106. lemme see

Can an 18 year old drink legally? No

Would they be able to survive if they were to move out of their parents house and go to work? No
It's bad enough that both parties take pains in order to destroy kids to the point where the only way they can strike out on their own is by joining the military.

Has the draft ever kept us out of wars? No

Vietnam was not ended by "us"; it was ended by the Vietnamese.

[walldude]

89. Oh christ.. again with this shit?

What "National Service"? There is no draft and there is no National Service. So enough with the faux "they'll never take me alive crap". You'd get much more interest and respect from me if you were actually in any danger of being drafted. You are long past being a "young person" in danger of National Service or the draft. At the age of 32 you are long past where you need to be defending the "youth of America". Get over it...

[Jed Dilligan]

97. As long as people keep talking about it,

I will keep fighting them.

[Redstone]

110. Yes.

Redstone

[pitohui]

112. i agree, it's also about keeping them out of the job market

fewer and fewer jobs for people who want a living wage, why should i have to compete with some young whippersnapper who can still remember 7 digit telephone numbers without jotting them down and who can still lift a 30 pound parcel without batting an eye? :-)

i'm trying to be light hearted since it's a holiday but, to be honest, i don't think it's about "punishing" youth, it is about removing them from competition in an increasingly tiny marketplace for jobs

in any case, the theft of another person's labor when they have been convicted of no crime is always morally wrong in my view, even if they are paid a token wage for national "service"

i have no problem w. any voluntary program and anyone who wants to volunteer is already free to do so

[sweetheart]

114. close, its about beating up the poor

The wars, including the war on drugs users, are based on disenfranchising the poor and setting up
a global framework where the rich world has 'rights' to interfere with all poor-world matter because
of 'drugs'.

Now they can murder a few people and say they were in 'drugs', legitimizing the whole project of
criminalizing poverty around the world and using modern weaponry to find a final solution.

[Jed Dilligan]

157. Increasingly, "young" and "poor" are synonymous

I'm just on the verge of being neither--but I feel more for the people where I was than for the people where I doubt I'll ever be.

[Neshanic]

115. Well no sympathy here. It's just the luck of the draw that you are young at this time.

Of course when I was young, another draw was more important, that being your draft number.

Yes, it sucks in a big cosmic sort of way that you live in these times at the age you are feeling so insecure, that you may be asked to perform a duty for the country in some sort of national service. Karma, God, The Giant Cosmic Hamster, or whoever just makes these rules up as we go along, and we all have our "issues" that we must endure growing up in the time that we did.

At least you get to debate it, as other have not. Also at least you have the Republican scumbags that will water down any item, or make available a safety valve to shunt off the "cream of their crops" from getting a greetings letter.

Kinda think of this as 1965, and we have about, say seven more years of this war to go. I am sure in that time a completely Orwellian/Alice Rabbit Hole logic plan will be produced to give you many options that you will be able to pencil in.

[BlackVelvet04]

122. There are enough of us old hippies

who remember being young who will fight a draft with our dying breath.

As for the others... fuck em.

[Jed Dilligan]

155. You are a true

:patriot:

These other nitwits are mere nationalists.

[TankLV]

128. I don't see it that way - I have mixed feelings on this.

I think it is nice intentio to have a service to help others, but I feel it's best if it's voluntary.

I was surprised to learn that highschools now REQUIRE "volunteering" on community projects in order to graduate.

[Karenina]

131. Oh, take a chill pill, Jed!

The concept of 18-24 months of community service in between those years is not a bad one. Really not. It's done here across the pond. You choose what you want to do.

[Jed Dilligan]

151. Maybe in a country that's not totally dysfunctional

Here, being a "guest" of the government means being raped or murdered, unless you're already in one of the big criminal gangs.

[JVS]

134. Fucking whippersnappers!

Great post Jed

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jed Dilligan]

152. Which must be why you responded!

:rofl:

[Zodiak]

140. I am against mandatory national service of any type

It doesn't matter to me whether it is right-wing or left-wing, I do not support strongly authoritarian policies.

You want service? Ask for it. Nicely...with incentives.

The youth have enough worry in paying the ridiculous debt their parents couldn't prevent the government from accruing. Mandatory national service adds insult upon injury.

Ask them, because we are already living off of their dime.

[Jed Dilligan]

153. Thanks,

why do the sane people only come out at night?

[MUSTANG_2004]

187. Nicely said n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. Been bothered by this me first attitude all day

after I left to do some work (Yep that discipline that was taught to me serving is once again useful)... I overhead a conversation

This conversation was between a father, his wife and his two sons. It was in spanish and thankfully that is my native language. So they were talking about the future. One of the kids just graduated HS, and has not been able to get any form of employment beyond the McDonald's trap. Partly, he does not have that covered college degree.

So here is the problem. He talked to a recruiter (Later I gave them some advise on how to handle the recruiter)

He wants to go to college. He does not want to spend the next six years in the US Navy sailing the world... alas he has no choice if he wants that college degree. Why? There is no way his family, of very limited means, could pay for that college degree.

So here is the question to Mr. I don't care as long as I am asked to do anything and my skin is not in that game... is Luis, his real name, volunteering or joining up due to our lovely and ever so popular as long as it does not touch me, ECONOMIC draft?

Now here is the other question. Don't you think that a mythical charlie, living on the other side of the tracks and having all the opportunity in the world would benefit from seeing how Luis lives, and how he has to struggle to get what our mythical Charlie is given on a silver platter?

What is more?. Once six years have parsed, assuming Luis leaves the Navy and goes to College... who do you think will have a stronger sense of civic duty? Who do you think will actually, statistically, vote more often? If you said Luis you get the price... but I suspect in your blindness you will refuse to see it.

Now to the meat of this. This nation is on life support, best case scenario. Why? Over the last twenty to thirty years there has been an effort to kill civic pride and civic virtue, and your post is a perfect example of that success.

Oh and where I came from, if you went to college, you had to do anywhere from a semester to a year of national service, whether you went to private or public school it did not matter. This public service helped to get that civic virtue down and college students were told they were truly privileged for going to college, and they should pay the country back with some service. Nobody complained and people just did it. Perhaps we need the same thing here, to teach people that being a citizen means more than just simply paying taxes.

By tthe way that system was far from perfect, but people did not truly have that me and mine and how is this going to affect only me attitude.

[crispini]

161. Yep, this post gets the gold star.

The military is in fact "mandatory" for that boy you talk about.

As far as the OP goes, I don't see any harm in some form of national service, not necessarily military. I served in the Peace Corps for two years when I got out of college. It did me a world of good to get out on my own and start doing things for myself and still have some kind of support system to rely on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

178. I quicjkly realized it was mandatory for him

just as it was for my husband over twenty years ago. That is why I sat down and explained the recruiter shell game to them.

[spoony]

171. You had a choice of colleges

People who don't want to do it "volunteer" work for their college credit can transfer, or at worst the "punishment" is not graduating.

What's the mandatory national service equivalent? Moving to another country? Going to jail?

"Nobody complained and people just did it. Perhaps we need the same thing here, to teach people that being a citizen means more than just simply paying taxes."

What if they did complain? I mean, what do you think someone who DIDN'T want to do it, and was forced to, would get out of it? That civic pride you're talking about? I don't see that happening. Moreover, this whole discussion came out of the draft discussion, and being a citizen certainly does not necessarily include being cannon fodder, nor should it include being an indentured servant.

[nadinbrzezinski]

180. If you did not do it you did not get your degree

I didn't face it, I came to this country and went to a State school, thank you

My bother on the other hand, and my cousin, he is a doctor, he did nine months of public service, and my cousin did nine months of public service as a dentist

The point is... there was a sense of public service.

By the way while going to college, since I do live on a border town, I served for ten years as a medic and seven of them we were part of the army reserves? Why pray tell tell should I do that? I felt a moral obligation to pay back in service to the country that allowed my father to come in after WW II with only a shirt on his back.

You seriously think I would have considered doing that if I had grown only thinking about myself?

[spoony]

184. The point is that you cannot force an actual

sense of "moral obligation." You grew up with that value, good for you. There should be more of it, and I'm not being flip. But I don't think we get there by mandating it.

Many people have many different reasons for disliking and distrusting an involuntary national service program, and it is not so simple as to boil it down to laziness, selfishness, etc.

[tpsbmam]

159. Please check your history.....

From the sound of the OP, you think it's about the current particular generation that would be affected by mandatory national service. It's not. Mandatory national service has been proposed, on one form or another, for at least 100 years.

One of the times that it was proposed was during the Vietnam era, a time when I would have been affected. I was for it then, and I'm for it now.

We have terrible problems in this country. We're very good at pointing out the divisions between rich and poor, but not terribly good at doing some of the things we could to make changes. It's very nice to talk about volunteering but how many people actually do it? How many do it and will (or can) devote the number of hours a week that would actually cause substantial changes in say, a poor inner city school? I'm not condemning people, I'm pointing out that volunteerism just doesn't happen to the extent we need it to in order to really improve things. If an entire population of, say, 18- to 21-year-olds were working in the parts of this country that needed the help most, we might actually see some changes.

What about mandatory national service being used as a way for people to pay for college? Tuitions are going up, the availability of fair loans is decreasing, and scholarship money is decreasing even more. What about a pay for play system? It's a good way for young folks to get a college education without ending up in places like Iraq.

What about learning about life? As much as people who are in the 18 y.o. age range like to think they know everything, they don't. Getting young folks out of their habitual lifestyle and putting them in something entirely new isn't a bad thing. I've seen it change the direction of people's lives, typically benefiting both the individual and community. And it often isn't something that people will do on their own. Later in life, would you rather have a Shrub politician who had never done anything but play golf at exclusive clubs when he was 18 or would you rather know that, lessons learned or not, he had spent two years working with some of the poorest populations in our country? Would you rather have someone like him see that, for the most part, these are people who are working their asses off just to survive or would you rather let him go on being the silver spoon, ignorant asshole that he is? Not everyone will "get it," and I suspect that he'd be one of the people who didn't, but many more will -- wouldn't you rather see that in our Congress than this phalanx of ignorant rich white men?

As for the "free country" argument, that one is just total BS. Many democracies have mandatory military service (not just national service). Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Israel, South Korea, Greece, Norway and Switzerland are just some of them. That doesn't make them not free or not democratic. I would personally rather see mandatory national service rather than mandatory military service -- had it been the latter when I was 18, I'd have protested vociferously and would now, too.

[smoogatz]

164. Lucky you.

Universal national service ain't gonna happen. The current political climate being what it is, nobody in government is seriously considering the creation of a huge new government "busy work" program. What WILL happen, unless we get the hell out of Iraq in short order, is a so-called "special skills" draft, in which medical personnel, translators and others with needed skills will be dragged into military service. The next step will be a highly selective males-only draft to fill empty slots in Army infantry units. And so on. So, the good news is that you're safe from having to go to West Virginia to teach adults to read (whew!). The bad news is, you may yet have to fight in Iraq.

[B Calm]

165. I think a draft would stop future wars!

[aquart]

166. What a simply worthless statement.

PUNISH? Taking responsibility is PUNISHMENT? All you owe your country is your own personal gratification?

Did the maid clean your room, too?

[Zodiak]

169. Community service already is a punishment

It is a punishment very commonly given to petty criminals and parking ticket collectors.

It is not given as a reward.

[TahitiNut]

172. I regard it as 'corrections' or 'rehabilitation'.

Something that's solely 'punishment' is caning, imprisonment, a spanking, grounding, and other corporal or restrictive penalties.

Community service is, at least for me, welcomed. While I've only had few traffic violations, I had one in California that I chose to "work off" by going to the class and cleaning the highways. It was an option for removing points from my driving record. I've also joined volunteers in cleaning up the highways. Orange vests and the whole shot. Punishment? Hardly.

What I find very telling is that for those who do this normally, it's a walk in the park. But for those who think themselves "above" such menial tasks, it's a hell. They make their own hell. It's why I think some of the most inventive sentences for people found guilty of vandalism or other crimes against society are service-related ... performing services that many of us find REWARDING. The very fact that the person finds such service a 'punishment' betrays the same antisocial attitudes that propelled the crimes and misdemeanors they did. It's a fascinating Catch-22.

In my view, the best way folks can stop it from being a "punishment" is to enjoy doing some good for society - for the community. The misery of performning such tasks is, imho, directly proportional to the degree of antisocial attitudes possessed by the person performing the task. For folks who do such thing normally, it's a treat, actually.

[Zodiak]

174. The sentence is given in response to a crime

Even if you cage its definition into "rehabilitation", extending such an effort into compulsory service would make such activities "compulsory rehabilitation".

I understand why community service is meted out as a sentence for a crime, and I applaud that (because these people already have demonstrated antisocial behavior in one form or another). What I do not applaud is the idea that everybody needs to be rehabilitated or punished (however you wish to "spin" the definition) for the collective good without regard to their right of self-determination.

As much potential good as can come out of it, I am against it on principle. Take away the compulsory nature, and I am on-board, but until then, it is an authoritative left-wing idea that makes me really question our side's commitment to liberty and self-determination.

[TahitiNut]

176. The response to a crime is (and should be) more than mere 'punishment'

The criminal justice system has, in the 20th century, had major improvements ... and to some degree (not perfectly, by any stretch) incorporates penance, rehabilitation, counselling, training, and many other "sentences" besides punishment. The advocates of solely punitive measures are certainly still with us ... most (I would assume) on the right.

The notion that punishment is a deterrence is deeply-entrenched. For me to believe that the only reason someone doesn't kill me or another person is because the fear punishment ... well, that's just not the kind of world I'd want to live in. I know it's not what prevents me from killing - but I wonder if that presumption is akin to the presumption that gays "choose" to be gay? It seems to me that perhaps the people who view punishment as a deterrence as the sole or predominant way to deal with crime might themselves harbor such motives. "Projection." It's the name of a ship on DeNile, I think.

So, I don't lump all the sentences imposed into a bucket labeled "punishment." No way.

[Zodiak]

179. As is your right

I do not argue with your definition of community service as "punishment" or "rehabilitation". That is subjective and in the eye of the beholder. You are entitaled to your opinion without rebuttal.

What I do argue with is the idea that every American, upon reaching adulthood, needs this "rehabilitation" in a mandatory fashion (under the threat of jail).

I have done my share of community service, and it was all voluntary. The fact that it was voluntary is what gave me the most reward, and why it was so apppreciated when I did it. That's my experience, and I am sure it is different than the guy next to me...which is different thna the next guy's.

Which is also why we should avoid "one size fits all" mandatory policies. I am glad things were rewarding for you, but I would feel sorry for the antisocial forced to do it.

[TahitiNut]

181. Let me remind you of one major difference between voluntary service and the draft.

When someone leaves a job to 'volunteer' ... there's absolutely no assurance they can get their job back when the need for their service is passed - when they've done their share. If anyone thinks that most emplyers would have re-employed returnees from Viet Nam, or even WW2(!), then they don't know what those days were like at all. A draftee (purportedly) has that assurance. Whether 'drafted' to perform Public Health Services or military service, the penalties of volunteerism are alleviated.

As a society, we penalize voluntary service. We build in a presumption that it's not just "voluntary" but is a life's career choice. That's just plain stupid. There is currently no material accommodation for people to serve other than as 'lifers.' The chance that could be 'corrected' is that of a snowball in hell, I'm afraid.

So, the advocates of 'volunteerism only' just discard this consideration in the rush to avoid it.

It's a bit like tax deductions for charitable contributions. In recognizing it's subtracted from income, we take away the penalty. In a sense, the same can be said for a 'draft.'

[Zodiak]

182. Then we should fix that policy....

instead of doing a complicated end-around at the expense of the self-determination and liberty of our youth.

If one volunteers for community service of certain pre-approved natures (miltary, nursing home, school), then whatever job they left will be garunteed or another similar job provided (if the business went under, for example).

I would be all for that. Not compulsory national service. Miltary or otherwise (which is becoming a moving target).

As the son of a soldier, I understand very well that we do not take care of those who sacrifice for our nation, but I do not think it is because it is a volunteer army. I think it is because people listen to lies and take them as the truth (like, for example, Republicans are better for our miltary men and women). This phenomenon is also seen within the military, which is overwhelmingly Republican, so service does not necessarily increase awareness (in th case of military service).

As an aside, it somewhat disturbs me that I am on the other side of the fence on this issue from people with whom I normally fully-agree. I suppose this further underscores how everyone is an individual. I have a very strong libertarian bent, and I have seen the first-hand effects of military conditioning on families who did not volunteer themselves. My mother lost the love of her life to the draft in Vietnam, and has never fully-recovered from it. Many youth die young from various diseases...and I would never want to take the last years of a cystic fibrosis patient or a hypercholesrterolemic or cardiomyopathic youth to perform national service. There are lot of valid reasons to oppose compulsory national service, and many are rooted in the indivudal stories of Americans. One size fits all policies such as are being presently proposed will have its share of tragedies. But in the end, self-determination is side-stepped as well as the principle of liberty.

Thanks for the conversation.

[OneBlueSky]

170. I think national service is a good idea -- as long as it's voluntary . . .

I believe the government should create some kind of program that encourages young people to devote two years of their lives to helping others, and offer incentives (like maybe tuition grants) to promote participation . . . military service could be part of the program, but it should also include all kinds of civilian opporunities to help people and communities in need . . .

compulsory service is a bad idea that just breeds resentment and resistance to what could be a great opportunity for young people to grow as human beings . . .

[TahitiNut]

173. For those who have a "social conscience" and do volunteer work,

... it's a walk in the park - rewarding. For sociopaths and people with an antisocial attitude, it's hell. They make their own hell. "Force" an antisocial person to serve meals to the homeless and they feel it's horrible - until they change their attitudes. For many/most, it's rewarding. Same for cleaning up the highways, and a whole multitude of service tasks.

There's both rhyme and reason for high schools, particularly parochial high schools, to mandate community service. I believe the same applies to society as a whole. Coddling antisocial attitudes isn't healthy, imho.

[Zodiak]

175. People have a right to be antisocial

even if you disagree with it and think that it is bad. You cannot legislate attitudes and behavior unless such attitudes directly hurt another (operative word being "directly").

[AZBlue]

186. Thank you. Your response is the best argument for national service I've seen.

It'll get rid of the overwhelming shitty, selfish, lazy attitude many Americans have and teach them what's really important for us as a nation and a society.