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My nuanced reasons for opposing any reinstitution of the draft

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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 10:02 PM
Original message
My nuanced reasons for opposing any reinstitution of the draft
Much of this post is copied and pasted from other posts I have made on this topic in the past.

Rangel argument in favor of a draft is filled with holes. The road to hell is paved with bad intentions. Rangel says that a draft will make our leaders more cautious about taking the nation to war, especially if many members of the ruling class also face the prospect of their kids and grandkids having to serve. To make sure that this is the case, Rangel claims there will be "no exceptions" to his draft, er, national service bill. Furthermore, Rangel says that a draft will give us more of a "citizen" military that is more representative of the US population at large, rather than the current all-volunteer military, which is currently disproportionately non-white and lower income (at least at the enlisted level). The argument advanced by Rangel asserts that in wartime, sacrifice should be shared, spread across all strata of society and not just dumped upon the least well off among us. A noble goal, perhaps, but would it work this way in practice? I doubt it, and there are plenty of other reasons to oppose this terrible idea as well, regardless of Rangel's' intentions.

You can try to put in a draft with "no exceptions", but it won't work. The well to do chickenhawks WILL FIND A WAY to get their kids out. They have good lawyers who know how to do this, or powerful friends who are just a phone call away. Or there is always the extended "study abroad" for little Dylan and Kaitlin or perhaps the family doctor (one of Daddy's golfing buddies) can be paid to find a long un-noticed bum knee. Or maybe the Hilton twins can convice their draft board that designing a new fashion line is "national service". You get the drift. Rangel can write whatever he wants to in his bill, this kind of Good Ole' Boy stuff will make a mockery of his "universal" service plans.

Would a draft stimulate anti-war activism and resistance? I'm sure that some of that would result. Sure, there would be more protests in the streets and on the campuses, and a few highly publicized cases of draft card burnings or turn-ins. But don't get too excited. Most kids in this country are not politically conscious. A draft will not necessarily change that. So many more young people are raised to obey authority, rather than question it. You put a draft in place, and a lot of those kids will just go because the government says they have to go. You can't honestly expect that a draft will suddenly result in millions of kids reading up on the finer points of the Downing Street Memo. It won't work that way. A draft only results in more poor and minority kids becoming the property of the state. OK, some young people will resist, I don't doubt that, but far more will not because they have been raised to obey, rather than question authority. These young people will go because they are told to, and they won't have the connections to get out, or the political sophistication to protest. Then the military establishment will be more powerful than ever, both at home and abroad.The practical reality of such a policy is more young people are sent off to war and come home dead or wounded. That may not be what you would mean to have happen, but that is what would happen.

And do you really want this president to have an unlimited supply of cannon fodder for more wars of aggression? The only reason we have not gone to war with Iran and/or North Korea is a sheer lack of troops. A draft provides an unlimited supply of ever more warriors for the Neo-Con Cause. Rangel's bill gives the president--the same president he claims to oppose--great discretion to designate conscripts into national service assignments. Why would you trust Bush with that kind of discretion? Why would you let Bush decide what counts as national service, and who gets the non-military slots, verses who has to serve in the military? The way the Rangel bill is written is so spongy that Bush and his team could very easily use it for almost entirely military or law enforcement purposes.

It's a despicable idea, and to suggest it for nothing more than making a point is insulting to the young people whose lives would be jeopardized by this little bit of social engineering. The idea should be repudiated, and Rangel should be warned not to bring it up again, lest he be stripped of his committee chairmanship.


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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. "The well to do chickenhawks WILL FIND A WAY to get their kids out."
Exactly my feelings as well, the rich and righteous will never allow their children to pay the price for the wars they wage.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Of course they will
and we will be watching ,, just like in the 60's that is what swings public opinion.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. It's hard to win when you're convinced you're going to lose.
Which is not to say that winning (in this context = a correct/fair draft) will be at all easy.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. The "French Revolution" Comes to Mind
I want the "Well-to-Do" to worry as much as the majority of regular folks. THEIR DETACHMENT FROM THE REALITY MOST PEOPLE LIVE IN MAKES THEM SOMEWHAT DELLUSIONAL AND SOCIOPATHIC.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kick/Recommend
:kick:
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
4. I've pretty much worn myself out with my own thread on
this subject, but I will at least say "I AGREE" and give you a kick and recommend.

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4bucksagallon Donating Member (324 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. Your nuanced reasons / your fear = cowardice........... There are ways......
to craft the bill so that Kaitlin or Dylan still have to serve. Since I see your example as ludicrous here is my ludicrous example. How about 1 exemption per family and oh by the way Mr. Republican Chickenhawk YOU used up your exemption way back when SORRY, Kaitlin and Dylan will have to serve. Geez I never realized what a bunch of chickens, not hawk, but just plain chickens we have in this country. Not willing to give anything back, I guess the ME generation is still thriving. Nuance this.......... I am sick of COWARDICE whether on the right or the left, and all of these arguments are just that.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Um, bullshit
Congress will write sweetheart exemptions for the children of the rich and powerful into the law.

They did that sort of thing so the rich and powerful wouldn't have to pay their fair share of taxes. What the hell makes you think they wouldn't do it for their HEIRS???

Get real.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Second that.
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EdwardM Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. As long as the lobbyists have a hold of both parties,
Edited on Sat Nov-25-06 10:34 PM by EdwardM
There will never ever be a fair universal draft. I just don't even see how it would be possible. It wouldn't make it out of committee without 20 loopholes. And even then, all it would be is more bodies for there war. The war won't stop immediatly, it will just expand. Remember, it took almost a decade with the draft for us to pull out of Vietnam. We won the vote, the majority of Americans want the troops out, so we should try and do that, instead of scaring the independents back to the republicans.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
8. Oh I can imagine the "faith based" national service assignments now
Into the war my democrat kiddies, into the churches my republican favorites....
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Zensea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
9. If we don't want a draft, we should stop starting wars
Edited on Sat Nov-25-06 11:18 PM by Zensea
The real issue is war, not the draft.
Although I agree in some ways with what you are saying, at the same time I disagree.
Life isn't fair.
A draft is a despicable idea. That's why I'm in favor of one, not to make a point but for other reasons.
It's equally or maybe even more despicable to let our country fight a war without significant sacrifice from the populace.
With our volunteer army we are responsible for the death of over 100,000 Iraqis, a much larger percentage of their population than the percentage of our population who have died. (Not that our army is directly responsible, but the actions of our government.)
The sacrifices on our part have all been relatively minor so far.
What all these arguments against a draft leave out of the question is that just because there is a draft it does not mean that you have to join the military.
There is such a thing as conscientious objection. If you refuse to participate, there is nothing they can do to force you. There is a long tradition of this. Even in "just" wars such as World War II.
I know (or knew when they were alive) people who went to prison and served hard time in World War II rather than participate in the military.

I see no reason that this generation should not have to face similar dilemmas especially when our country creates the kind of havoc it has created in Iraq.

I do empathize and sympathize with your position but the more I think about it and opposition to a draft, the more it seems to me to be something of a cop-out. (and I have thought about this quite a bit starting back when I was a teenager during the Vietnam War and filed for conscientious objector status which I received -- 1-A-O on the draft card I was required by law to carry).
The real way to resist a draft is for each individual to resist if there is a draft. Opposing a draft in the general sense doesn't do much in the way of opposing war, each individual's resistance against a draft when faced with it personally does much more.

I'm not sure how well I'm explaining my thesis and I'm sorry if I am not being nuanced enough. It is not because I do not respect your opinion, it is a defect in me if anything when it comes to this subject.

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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. Aaaah.... Another proud graduate of the BlooInBloo School Of Nuance & Tact!
:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
13. If you are going to fight a war,
you better fight it with people who are not in it for the money or for the love of violence.

So you fight it with a cross-section of the population represented in all ranks.

It is the only way to prevent unjust wars.

Which does not mean people have no right to dodge the draft in order to express their opposition to any particular war.


In Iraq we are witnessing the alternative to the draft:

Shadow Company
the rules of war have changed
http://www.shadowcompanythemovie.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJQMsBDQj2U

In the late 20th Century the distinction between soldier and mercenary became blurred. The recent use of private military companies (PMCs) in Iraq has been more extensive than at any time in modern history. The brutal killing of four PMC employees in Fallujah in April 2004 made it clear that these “contractors” are not merely workers in a foreign land. But are the lives of such men the only thing at risk when we privatize warfare?

Shadow Company explores the moral and ethical issues private military solutions create for PMC employees, for the Western governments who foot the bill for their salaries, and for everyday citizens like you. The filmmakers traveled the globe to expose all sides of the issue, interviewing PMC staff, owners and lobbyists, former mercenaries, academics, journalists and top authors. So what is really at risk? See Shadow Company and decide for yourself.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. "It is the only way to prevent unjust wars."
Er, uh, well.... hmmm... ok...

VIETNAM.


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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. ok, so not "prevent" but diminish the capability;
how long would the Vietnam war have continued if it had been fought with a voluntary and/or commercial army?
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
16. What if
What if anyone could opt out by simply signing a statement saying that they have a personal objection to compulsory service, based on the fact that people have a variety of personal and/or physical reasons that they may not be able to or want to perform service at the government's demand.

None of this "well, I have to finish school, my mom is sick, I have a boil on my ass" crap. Either you don't serve because you recognize that a draft isn't okay because people have personal circumstances, or you do your time. Your choice.

You agree, by signing that statement, that if you are ever elected to public office, you will vote against any sort of compulsory service (or abstain), to include sending troops overseas against their will, unless those troops agree to be sent overseas. A true volunteer army, in other words. If the troops don't believe in the mission, they don't have to go, and are allowed to get an honorable discharge. If enough troops don't believe in the mission, we can't have a war. And that signing statement becomes public record, and legally binding for life.

This way, nobody (no matter race, class, or personal beliefs) is actually forced to serve against their will, and nobody who refuses to serve can ever force another to do so.

Legally binding for life may seem harsh - people mature, they change viewpoints. I don't care. Tell it to the soldiers who lost a limb; tell it to the parents who lost a child in Iraq. That's for life, too.
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