I was drafted in 1970. Now I have two sons, 14 and 10.

[11 Bravo]

Anyone who attempts to conscript either of my boys will have to come through me. If they decide to serve, (and God help me, it might be in their blood) then that's their choice. But any move to take them from me to participate in some undeclared war on ... I don't know ... terror, Islam, brown people in general ... will be met with what might politely be described as "Civil disobedience".

[symbolman]

1. I'm with you

drafted in 71, number was 25 so I joined the USAF.. two of age sons, 16 and 20, and that's why I started Takebackthemedia.com years ago in 2000, basically to SAVE my sons from another bullshit 'war'..

Pry my sons from my cold dead fingers? Sounds like a distinct possibility..

Have they forgotten that THEY taught people like us how to kill for so long?

By all LEGAL means of course :)

[EdwardM]

3. Yeah, someone needs to run against Rep. Rangle in the primaries.

If he keeps this up, he will sink the party.

[SoCalDem]

74. Charles Rangel will not "sink" the party. He's ELEVATING

it by requiring DISCUSSION about "how we fight our wars"..

It's very easy to send someone else's offspring.
We can even rationalize it by saying they "volunteered".
When it's INVOLUNTARY, it suddenly moves to the front of the line.
Parents' ears perk up when the word "war" is mentioned, IF their own kids might get swept up in it all.

Presidents don't get carte blanche if they feel people are watching what they do and might just get really pissed.

Charlie probably knows that it won't happen, but just by mentioning it, he has people focused on the narrow sliver of the population who actually does our fighting.

[Ms. Toad]

83. Garbage.

There are far better ways of focusing on how we fight wars than advocating a draft - perhaps by (novel concept) directly addressing the issue rather than advocating for something a large portion of the party doesn't support.

[smoogatz]

110. And that's the funniest thing I've read on DU all week.

Thanks for the hearty laugh.

[Lasher]

117. Inducted in May 1969

No lottery at that time, they just grabbed me. My only son is old enough to evade conscription, but I care about all the other sons - and potentially daughters - who might get caught up in this. It's just plain wrong.

[TahitiNut]

2. Impossible. I was told with absolute certainlty by a DUer ...

... thay nobody was drafted after 1969 because we were on our way out of Nam.

:sarcasm: <-- is this really needed this time?

[11 Bravo]

6. Whoever told you that needs to PM me.

Maybe they can explain why I still set off airport metal detectors.

[Monkeyman]

8. Only one thing does that I have it in my legs and back

[11 Bravo]

11. But we can always tell when it's going to rain, can't we?

OOO-RAH, bro.

:toast:

[TahitiNut]

118. The 'explanation' is that you were part of a "broken conscript Army"

So was I, I'm told. Makes ya proud, don't it? Sure does make me proud. :puke:

[Warpy]

9. You have to realize that nobody under 50

has been taught anything but TOTAL BULLSHIT about that time in the country's history. They have NO CLUE why we fought so hard to end the damned draft. They have NO CLUE all the tricks the wealthy and powerful pulled to keep their own precious spawn out of that "universal" draft.

Stupid's cushy slot in the Champagne TANG unit is only the tip of a very large, very dirty iceberg.

The young are idealistic, idealistic enough to think that a draft would 1) be fair and 2) actually be used for community projects. It's really hard to puncture all those good intentions and belief that such a system won't be completely corrupted before the ink dries on the legislation, but there you have it.

The road to hell starts with idealism and a lack of knowledge about what has been possible in the past.

[Hippo_Tron]

16. The young?

It's the young people around here who are railing against the thought of any national service proposal. Meanwhile the baby boomers are suggesting that it would be a perfect way to teach us kids a thing or two about the "real world" and that it's the federal government's responsibility to make sure that nobody gives to live like the Bush twins and Paris Hilton.

BTW, The 1960's fascinates me and I've studied the period a good bit but I admit that I can't even fathom what you guys went through. In particular, I can't even imagine the thought of violence breaking out on my college campus like it did in so many places back then. My generation is so used to law and order and stability that I don't think we'd know what to do.

[Warpy]

25. I'm talking mostly about that 34-49 cohort

They're too old for the draft but they think something needs to be done to whip those spoiled rich brats into shape, so they're willing to sacrifice everybody else's kids as well as their own, idealistically insisting on the totally impossible: a universal draft, administered fairly, that would allow draftees to choose between community service and the military.

Gawd, now that I typed that out, I see just how ridiculously unattainable that expectation really is.

At some point, idealism is invariably crushed by experience. I sincerely hope it will occur before Rangel gains any real support, that his game of rope-a-dope and wake up the booboisie is played out the way he seems to hope it will be.

[Union Thug]

73. 42 years old and I'm right there with you. We aren't all zombies. :-) n/t

[Warpy]

81. Not if you're here, you aren't

but a lot of them out there ARE, people who were just kids when we were out in the streets raising hell. All they know is what their parents and some very bad school textbooks told them, which is NOTHING.

Like your screen name BTW. :evilgrin:

[Zodiak]

94. 35 here and staunchly against it

My mother's life was ruined by losing her fiance to the Vietnam draft.

She married a military man...the conditioning made him an abuser and I still bear the scars from that.

Draft? National service? Both against the principles of self-dtermination and liberty. No thanks.

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. 44 here. Many of us have friends and family who were conscripted.

We did benefit from the struggles you fought when we were just kids, but we're not totally ignorant.

I fully agree with you about the foolishness of proposing a draft - military or otherwise.

The most reflective DU poll on the topic was one posted by sparkly which indicated that DU'ers over 46 supported mandatory consc... err... "service" by a 2:1 margin.

Those under 46 were evenly split on the topic.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2981134
Edited to add the link.

[BlackVelvet04]

66. I'm not sure it's the boomers.....

maybe we need a poll to determine just what age group it is. I'm a little younger than boomers at 52 but not much.

[Greyhound]

84. Just an FYI, at 52 you are a Baby Boomer. DOB 1945 - 1964. n/t

[BlackVelvet04]

98. You're right.....

it's my husband who isn't a Baby Boomer. Sorry.

[Golden Raisin]

75. Students my own age being shot dead

by National Guard at Kent State tends to wake one up short and hard. Marching in a peace demonstration and LITERALLY being spat on and screamed at by hate-filled, pro-War "patriots" tends to wake one up short and hard. Back in the Vietnam Era, even with rich, privileged kids (like Bush) getting/weaseling out of the draft, it was hard to be a middle class American and NOT know someone who was drafted, killed, maimed or came home psychologically damaged beyond repair in Nam. Unlike today, one also saw coffins of U.S. soldiers and much worse every night on the TV news.

[Beam Me Up]

97. I am a boomer and I'm TOTALLY opposed to conscription.

No one in their right mind should support this idea, EVEN for discussion. The OP is spot on. The OLIGARCHS that rule this country WANT universal conscription. Until they can figure out how to build an all clone army, they want MANPOWER to fight their imperial wars. Lets not give it to them on a silver platter, shall we?

[pnwmom]

37. I wonder, though, why they just can't look at the govt. we've had

the last 6 years and realize that we'd be CRAZY to put a universal draft in the hands of these people? And even if we have a better group in office at the moment, that we are always one election away from a fascist takeover?

[Ms. Toad]

85. I beg to differ

your last line sounds remarkably like the persuasive anti-war speech my 16 year old daughter gave last week...she's a tad under 50.

:hi:

Some of us are working really hard to make sure our children are not ignorant of the not so distant past. (And, she has gotten some realistic information from school learning, as well.)

[Art_from_Ark]

120. Believe it or not, some of us under 50 actually remember that time

I remember the nightly casualty counts on the Huntley-Brinkley Report, and later, CBS News with Walter Cronkite. I remember hearing stories from my friend about how his brother had been shot down in Nam. I remember getting an uneasy feeling as male family members approached draft age, and watching them turn the drum on TV and pulling birthdates out of it (and breathing a sigh of relief when my birthdate was near the bottom). I remember seeing people burning their draft cards on the TV news. I remember hearing about Tet, and Hue, and the My Lai trial and Lt. William Calley. And the bombing of Cambodia, and the Paris Peace Talks. I understand perfectly well why people were fighting against the draft.

[Straight Shooter]

14. I guess I was hallucinating that my brother was gone for a whole year, then.

I hallucinated his homecoming, too, and his PTSD. :eyes:

[Warren Stupidity]

113. Got a link or just make that up? nt.

[XOKCowboy]

4. Good! That's what this is all about!

Making it personal for all of those people who didn't go through the draft in the 60s and 70s. We need more "civil disobedience"!

[EdwardM]

7. We don't need a congressman to force this father to make tough decisions.

This isn't some game, this is his son's lives. Its my life also as I am 20. The draft didn't end the Viatnam War. It went on for years with the draft. So how will this be any different? And of course, any draft, the rich people will weasle their way out of it. All it would be is another punishment for the poor.

[XOKCowboy]

10. It's personal now to you, isn't it?

That's good. Dialogue is good. Hopefully some of the young repugs and the Fighting Keyboardists who's only sense of service is putting a ribbon on their car are taking it personally also. Hey I'm not for a draft either but if the current regime persists on wanting to escalate the wars that's what it's going to take. We have to make sure that if that happens they and their kids are going to fight also.

[Monkeyman]

5. We stand side by side here 11B

We who fly the blue rope stand as one

[LSK]

12. why are we still going on about this????

1. Rangel has proposed this for a while now. Its only an issue because he actually has a camera besides CSPAN in his face now.

2. He claims to have 4 votes in Congress of support of this. That is up from 2. IN THE WHOLE CONGRESS.

3. His point is to SCARE THE CLUELESS PEOPLE LIVING IN A BUBBLE TO GIVE A DAMN. Thats the whole point of this. These people are the target: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2767588

4. I am eligible for this so called draft. I am not panicking yet and I understand his point.

5. Why is DU acting like this is going to become a reality and instead not discussing whether this could scare people away from apathy?

[magellan]

13. Because they don't get his point

But never mind, they are having the discussion he wants. lol

[EdwardM]

18. unfortunately, this is not the discussion we need.

Mr. Rangle just got Democratic infighting. Go to freerepublic, there's no fighting there. They want Mr. Rangel to continue because they think he's hurting the party. They know there is no chance of this law passing just like I do.

[magellan]

21. And I know it hasn't a chance as well.

So...are you saying freepers are smarter about Rangel's proposal than the DUers here who oppose it?

[EdwardM]

23. On this issue yes, but only for a few.

[magellan]

44. I don't think it's a few

And this does need discussing. People are missing the point Rangel is making, even if they're unwittingly expressing it in their opposition of his call for a draft.

BTW, I just had a little look and the freepers are all over this like flies as well. Blaming the Dems mostly, but that's to be expected from them. They're having the discussion.

[BlackVelvet04]

67. I get his point....

I just think it's a stupid and dangerous way to make it.

[Ms. Toad]

86. Agreed. n/t

[magellan]

93. Dangerous how?

Do you honestly believe either party is foolish enough to approve a draft? You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

I'm glad Rangel has done this. It's got people who support this war thinking hard about what they're truly willing to sacrifice for it.

[BlackVelvet04]

99. I didn't think they were foolish enough to

attack Iraq, either, but I was wrong.

Their foolishness is often beyond belief. I think you are making a molehill out of a mountain.

[magellan]

106. Apples and oranges

The public perception of whether or not to invade Iraq didn't include the fear that they or their loved ones might be drafted into fighting it. Starting a draft is an entirely different ballgame, a decision that would immediately kill '08 election chances for the party that approved it. And in case you forgot, the Dems are so worried about '08 they won't even discuss impeachment. So why you think there's a snowball's chance in hell they'll go for a draft is beyond me.

But you worry yourself if you like.

[Beam Me Up]

101. Exactly. How smart is this "point" going to be IF there is another false-flag

operation against our civilian population or our military? Hmmmmm? A modified (allowing for anyone with parents who could afford to send their kids out of harms way) version of the bill would be passed in a heart beat. This is very bad politics. Down right STUPID politics given the current situation this country is in.

[magellan]

107. If it comes down to requiring troops we don't have

...the draft option is ALWAYS on the table, even without Rangel's proposal.

[Monkeyman]

15. On that it scares people with kids at the age

It is talk but to be clear 11 B is right if they came for mine there would be a fight

[XOKCowboy]

19. I don't blame ya one bit...

My dad was in Okinawa. He said the same thing about me. I got lucky and the draft ended the year I became eligible but he told me that he'd help me fight going to Vietnam if it came down to it.

[XOKCowboy]

17. Thank You!

He's up to 4 votes? I'll bet that they're all Republican too.

I hate the idea of a draft but as the other reply said, they're talking about it now and that's the point.

[11 Bravo]

20. Because anyone with kids should be frightened.

Our military is broken. Over-used, over-extended, and decimated. Tell me, who's going to fight the next war?

[LSK]

24. and when people are frightened, they start to pay attention

Isnt it better that more people watch the news instead of American Idol?

[pnwmom]

52. They ARE paying attention. Why do you think the Democrats won Congress?

But we'll lose it again if the electorate loses faith in us to be different -- which they will if we seriously become associated with a potential draft.

As the mother of teenage sons, I really don't appreciate jerks who want to SCARE me to make a point. I've been protesting the war on street corners since months before it began. I worked for and gave money to Democratic candidates. I don't need idiotic idealists telling me that I should be frightened so I'll start paying attention.

[LSK]

53. and Rangels plan dates from before a 2 weeks ago

[pnwmom]

54. So? He brought it back up now, with a lot of self-generated publicity.

Everything is different than when he brought it up in the past. Number 1, the American public now wants to end our involvement in Iraq. Number 2, Rangel is actually in a position of power now. He's that "top Senator" or "leading Senator" or "high-ranking Senator" who's pushing for the draft.

[XOKCowboy]

27. I've got a nephew that's now 18...

We've been on pins and needles for the past 3 years wondering if they'd get their hands on him somehow not to mention my other nephew that's going on 14. I know what you're saying and feeling. We're talking about the same thing.

Our military is broken and BushCo did it. We have to hold the NeoCons and Repugs feet to the fire and this is one way to do it. If they want more war, then let their kids fight too!

[pnwmom]

57. Get real. They're kids will never fight. They're rich enough by now to

buy a whole country and move there.

[XOKCowboy]

60. I'm not talking about the Bush Daughters..

I'm talking about those robots that parrot all the Right Wing talking points and vote for people like Shrubbie because they have no personal stake in the war except for their investments. Once their kids or they themselves are going to be the ones fighting then ShrubCo is finally gone forever.

[pnwmom]

69. The American public doesn't need this lesson.

It already opposes the Iraq war. Now it's up to Congress to get us out of there.

[MichiganVote]

22. Why? Because some us already lived thru the real thing

and we don't appreciate the reminder. Outside of the delusional, the idealistic and the just plain stupid...no one will like this, not even as a discussion topic.

[LSK]

26. ok, keep missing the point

I give up.

:shrug:

[MichiganVote]

28. Right back at ya'. But at least I have experience on my end.

[LSK]

29. tell me, how many apathetic people do you know?

I know lots. I work with them. Most of them were little kids during Vietnam.

How about you?

[MichiganVote]

32. Apathetic about what? Narrow your query.

[LSK]

34. thanks for reading my op in this

[MichiganVote]

43. So what you really want to know is how old I was when my family

members were in Nam', a couple came back physically damaged, all had PTSD and one other has been a nutcase ever since? And whether I was a really little baby who didn't know what was going on when her brother wigged out one night on leave from the jungles?

Well let's see, the war began for me when I was ten and it continued all through my youth. So I guess that about sums it up. For anyone who lived it that is.

And for record, no one that I know is apathetic about Iraq or Afghanistan.

[LSK]

48. if you dont know anyone who is apathetic

Then there is no way I can convince you of my point. Because I know plenty of these people.

[MichiganVote]

50. Well then you need a better class of people friend.

[LSK]

51. they are called co-workers

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2767588

[MichiganVote]

56. Ok. So an entire population is supposed to dialogue on the draft

b/c you're too reluctant to talk to these people yourself? Or, actually have a draft????
You think that every great leader waited to broach people with a concern or an idea until they stopped buying things for their children, hung up the phone or drove a car that met your approval?

You clearly want to talk to these people, think of a respectful way to do it and get going.

[11 Bravo]

33. I can't speak for Michigan Vote, but here's my take.

I know from experience that our tracers were red and their's were green. The red ones were outgoing, but, I swear, the green ones always seemed to be coming right my way.

[MichiganVote]

38. :):):):) That is the best response I've read all night!

[LSK]

39. and how do you propose stopping or preventing a war?

Whats your great idea?

[MichiganVote]

45. I propose that you draft yourself.

[11 Bravo]

62. That's WAY above my pay grade.

I mustered out as a sergeant. (I would have stayed a corporal, but my platoon leader and my squad leader got smoked within 5 minutes of each other leaving my 19 year old ass in charge.) Fuck! for a while there I could have been the youngest sergeant in the entire U.S. Army!

[Ms. Toad]

87. I'd start by talking about the war,

not about how you find bodies to staff the military for a war that shouldn't be being fought in the first place.

Here are some dialog starters that are on point, rather than a diversion from the core issues: http://www.fcnl.org/pdfs/ppdc_booklet.pdf

[Monkeyman]

40. I was in the Jungle 68-69

My number was pulled it was 15 so I joined but I still jump out of perfectly good airplanes. But in Nam only choppers

[Telly Savalas]

35. If it's not a legitimate attempt at imposing a draft, then it won't scare anybody

So then what's the point?

[pnwmom]

46. It doesn't matter whether YOU get his point, or I get his point.

What matters is that the media is spinning it as "Top Democrat proposes draft." And millions of Americans who voted for a Democrat -- perhaps for the first time in their lives -- won't get the point. They'll just read the headline, or hear 15 seconds about it on TV. And they'll wonder why the party they put in office to end the war in Iraq is instead proposing a universal draft -- and mentioning possible wars in Iran and Syria.

And the Republicans will be able to hang the draft around our necks going into 2008.

[magellan]

59. Proposing is a lot different to passing

And I find it very funny in a very unamusing way that there's as much opposition here to making sure every able American who supports Bush**'s war feels the fear of having to serve in Iraq as there is to the idea of holding BushCo accountable for their crimes, and that the pathetic reason is the same one that's been foisted off on the rest of us for the last two years: "We can't do that, it will make us look bad and damage our chances in the next election!!"

Good lord, THIS is why the Dems are no longer a real opposition party!

[pnwmom]

70. And I find it funny that so many DU'ers don't seem to get it that

many other DUers have teenagers who would be affected by any draft, and we are vehemently opposed to using our children -- or anyone's children -- in your political games.

[magellan]

92. You still don't get it

There is NOT going to be a draft. Neither party is suicidal enough to approve it. Your children are safe. Rangel is making a purely political point, and finally a good one that is making people THINK -- it's time to stop the neocon war machine in its tracks by hitting people with the reality too many in this country have been avoiding, that being, If you support this war but you or your adult children are not serving, you're a hypocrite: put up or shut up.

I'd much rather a provocative and to-the-point political game, as you call it, than the status quo from the Dems of only caring about political appearances.

[Ms. Toad]

89. Some of us fundamentally oppose war,

regardless of the composition of the army. It has NOTHING to do with the next election - for me the draft is fundamentally a morally unsupportable proposal - and to advocate (by introducing or supporting) a bill I fundamentally oppose as a conversation starter with the expectation it will fail is dishonest and equally immoral.

I'm all for a conversation about the war, including a conversation about the composition of the troops we are sending to fight it. Lets have the conversation - just don't use the draft as a tool to start that conversation unless you really support a draft - and if Rangle does, I hope he is defeated and replaced with someone whose a vision for peace has a bit more integrity.

[Dhalgren]

30. Ok, so you would barricade yourself and your children in your

house and kill as many law enforcement agents as you could before they killed you - and you kids would what - be better off? This sounds allot like "From my cold dead hands" kinda thing. The real point is why are we still in Iraq killing civilians and why are young American men and women from poor families and immigrant families being killed over there by the hundreds? Why is the American people allowing this to continue? Sure they have "begun" to "turn against" the "war", but so fucking what? It appears now that some thirty to fifty thousand more American men and women from poor families are going to be sent to kill and be killed in Iraq, with no end in sight. Why is that? It is because even though the American people are "beginning to turn against the war", they don't give enough of a shit to stop it. And the reason they don't give a shit is because MY kids are not in any danger of having to go. So, yeah, it's bad, and all, but hey, what are you gonna' do? I don't want anyone drafted, I don't want anyone to be sent to Iraq, but I also know that as long as this war only kills the poor, it won't matter as much as TomKat's wedding. I was in the Army from 1972-75 and I have two draft age kids, so no, I don't like the idea of the draft. But if instituting the draft caused 100 million Americans to get in the street and put a stop to this shit, then I will at the very least consider it...

[LSK]

31. thank you

Someone who gets it.

[boot@9]

116. exactly right

i think Rangel has some very good points. how about a draft with no exemptions! that would shake the shit out of the chickenhawks!

[MichiganVote]

36. So there it is. The idea that a draft is for dialogue is really just BS afterall.

"But if instituting the draft caused 100 million Americans to get in the street and put a stop to this shit, then I will at the very least consider it..."

IMHO, you're dreaming.

[XOKCowboy]

41. I also thank you

for your service and your fine post.

[Monkeyman]

47. I will fight the draft

You won't see the 1000,s in the streets like you did in Vietnam. But I marched once I will do it again. To Many of my brothers are on that Wall to ever let it happen again. Hell what do I know I am just an old VVAW Vet

[Dhalgren]

58. Those Brothers aren't on that wall because of the draft,

they're on that wall because our country lied to them, misused them and callously sent them to their deaths. That's what I vowed thirty-five years ago to not let happen again. That is how we as a people have let down our military this time. Our military is there to protect us and the nation in times of need; we are there to make sure our military is never misused. We aren't very good at our part of the bargain....

[Monkeyman]

61. Agree

[XOKCowboy]

63. I've got a couple of friends on that wall also..

I also know a lot of guys that came back from Vietnam changed forever. The ONLY way we'll see thousands in the streets to protest this and any future wars is IF the draft is re-enacted. I say if because this will never get passed. It's just to make people realize what it'd be like if it was their kids fighting these wars.

[TahitiNut]

49. That's a stance I can respect.

While I really believe that the entire nation must bear an equitable risk of military service in the event of ANY overseas "adventurism," I really feel that victimizing those we conveniently label as 'volunteers' as though they signed up for 2-3 tours is abominable. It's ALL about fighting ONLY those wars where the vital common interests of the people (not the corporations) of this nation are threatened. ONLY those - all the time and NOT just as a "tactical" afterthought. The draft should be an automatic part of ANY overseas deployment of troops into combat and activation of the National Guard. TANSTAAFL.

[11 Bravo]

55. TANSTAAFL - No free lunches here TN.

I think we're on the same side here.

[TahitiNut]

90. Even in disagreement, we're on the same side.

I think we both want the best, most egalitarian and equitable nation we can get. We may disagree on WHEN to have a draft, but I'm dubious that we disagree that it was necessary for WW2 - even if, even then, not equitable. I think we can have a more equitable draft - and doubt we could have fought in WW2 without one. While I certainly don't credit the US with being the sole "winner" of WW2, I do think we were the most benefited afterward. We had the only intact industrial base for years and years. The relative prosperity of the US was, in no small part, due to the fact that we bore the least damage.

I wish there were no wars. Wishing won't make it so. But if anything CAN be achieved, it MUST be that we don't start wars for corporate colonialism - but I don't think we stop that by ignoring it and letting the least advantaged bear the greatest burden.

[MercutioATC]

71. Sorry, I'm not willing to sacrifice my son for a movement.

...and your "barricade yourself and your children in your house and kill as many law enforcement agents as you could before they killed you" scenario is ridiculous.

I'd do one of two things, depending on the political climate...either hide my son or take him and leave.

The actions those of us with draft-aged kids would take should the draft be reinstated are individual decisions. Please don't trivialize the discussion with silly hype.

[pnwmom]

78. The American people just dumped the Republican Congress

so that the new Congress can get us out of the damn war.

Why do you act like they haven't done anything? A year ago, all the experts thought we wouldn't be able to takeover one house of Congress, much less two.

[Morgana LaFey]

96. I get it too

And I'm terribly, terribly conflicted.

On the one hand I agree totally with whoever it was (Rangel himself?) last night or the night before pointing out that a draft is a MORAL imperative, that this economic/class draft that keeps trapping and killing the poor, and mostly minorities at that is just wrong, no two ways about it.

And no wonder how highly vaunted this "volunteer Army" happens to be, I keep thinking back to the incredible infusion of all sorts of ideas and talents and perspectives that happened to the military during the Vietnam era draft. It resulted in such things as this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x6719#6722

Someone up thread asked something like "who will fight the next war?" It really hit me when I read that: why not let's not have any more wars? How 'bout we put our energy on THAT? I'm not a Kucinich fan, but I do remember his Department of Peace idea. I didn't like the idea and still don't, mostly because I don't think it's the type of thing our govt can do effectively, not realistically. It'll become all institutionalized and lost its focus and become compartmentalized and probably under GOP influence work with NED and USAID and so forth.

But I sure do like the idea of no more wars. If a draft would somehow get us there (e.g., result in total revulsion about the idea of losing any more of our sons and daughters to war or armed conflict), I'd certainly vote for it.

In the meantime, the draft being proposed would also make my own son elgible (late 30s), which doesn't please me at all. But... what's happening is a collective moral failure and that falls on ALL our shoulders as an individual moral failure.

How can you see the name and photo of another single American (or foreign fighter trying to gain citizenship by fighting our dirty war)?? I can't bear it.

I don't want my son (or his wife) to go; I don't want your son to go; I don't want ANYone's sons or daughters to go. NO MORE deaths for America's worst foreign policy disaster in history.

Unfortunately, whether he's doing it for real or whether just to provoke discussion (and END this war!), I come to the inescapable conclusion that Rangel is right.

[BlackVelvet04]

100. What branch of the government do you work for? n/t

[arewenotdemo]

109. Somehow I doubt that even a draft would get millions of Americans

off the couch and into the street.

It would, however, get the best of us and our kids out of the house and headed NORTH. Perhaps for keeps.

If Rangel is disgusted with minority kids dying for the White Man, then he should make that point directly. Someone needs to.

[AtomicKitten]

42. I have a 20-year-old son.

I've been holding my breath throughout junior's reign of terror always knowing we would bolt to Canada if he was drafted into this insanity.

[borlis]

64. I so agree with you. I have 3 sons, 13, 10, and 4 and

it will be over my dead body that they will be taken from me to fight some bullshit war. I have told they we will leave the country if we have to.

[symbolman]

65. One thing we have to take into consideration

is that during Nam the Media was on OUR side for the most part, at least once every block had a kid coming home in a box, when the TupperWare parties came boiling out into the street the war was basically over.

THAT is when things change. Granted the hippies and the college crowd and the civil rights people all led the way, but the MOMS kicked some ass.. just like AIDS, it wasn't until some white lady started getting it that something was done.

I WANT my sons to see what I saw at 14 on TV, guys holding up 'trophies', strings of ears they wore around their necks, scenes of utter decimation, as I ate my dinner I watched that in horror, me a kid who used to catch a moth, saving it from a light bulb and letting it outside, knowing that in a few years my PINK ASS would be on the line.

No matter whether you are mad at anyone or not, if you are stuck in a situation where someone is shooting at you and they hand you a gun you WILL FIRE BACK.

I tried to give something back after my service. I worked at Downy Veteran's Hospital in Illinois for a year, taking care of 300 vets who had literally been scared shitless, into the realm of insanity. And those numbers will be considered a joke when these boys and girls come back, due to the armor used, a lot of them are getting their brains jellshocked, instead of shellshocked, the bomb sends a convection wave through the brain and it will never work right again, even though they are not missing any body parts.

A living death, believe me. I took care of vets in a community care program, where they Govt just shot them up with THOROZINE and pushed them back into the streets to talk to parking meters all day, or kill someone for no real reason, fear.

We'll be seeing hundreds of thousands of head cases and with NO Funding for the VA thanks to Bush they will be killing people RIGHT HERE in their homes and streets because it's all they know.

Not to mention the actual cases of Shell shock because these guys never get rotated out, or get sent back over and over, when all they ever trained for was BarBQue lessons on a few weekends a year, and a chance to drive a real live Tank, etc. They weren't TRAINED for war, and THAT to me is the most WICKED thing these asshole chickenhawks have done to our young.

THIS is the legacy of War.

I NEVER want to see that again, but now, with a compliant media (which is why I started Takebackthemedia.com) that has 'sanitized' this 'war' for our 'convenience' we don't really see that -- instead it's framed as the Fight FOR IRAQ, total bullshit.

I got a step relative that's 16 years old here where I'm visiting my wife's folks and he's all gung ho to join, he wants to kill the terrorists so they don't get OUR OIL. I told him, "First of all, it's NOT OUR OIL. It belongs to the Saudis and Bush and rich guys. THEY get all the money, YOU just get killed or horribly injured. Do me ONE FAVOR Kid, go to Bethesda and talk to the injured Vets who are back from Iraq, ASK THEM how they feel about it..."

He'll never go, I'd have to drag him there, and I have half a mind to do just that.

Here's a Flash that I made a few years back at my site, it was made into a 30 second commercial and shown all over the east coast on Cable TV during the Primaries, even came in as one of 14 top entries in the "Bush in 30 Seconds" MoveOn contest - I went on the Scarborough show the night after the MoveOn event and MY WORK got shown nationally (this one) BEFORE the winner did.

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/onearmy.html

It's about all I can do with no money, but at least it's something.

Thanks to all my brothers and sisters in arms who've served, we fought for a different country then, as for now, THIS is where America USED TO BE.

[XOKCowboy]

68. Very powerful man. Thanks. NT

[symbolman]

115. Thanks to you too

Much appreciated.. :)

[democrank]

76. symbolman....

You`re right. I was one of the "hippies" on the streets. We, along with the others you mentioned, certainly did help bring an end to the war, but REAL changes came when "regular" Americans reached their boiling points and joined us. General Westmoreland`s bogus body counts switched from being acceptable facts to proven fiction and the sham was facing the beginning of the end. Citizens forcefully said, "Enough." I`ve been waiting for this moment over the war in Iraq, when Americans move from being an anonymous number in the DON`T SUPPORT poll, to living, breathing bodies on the streets that the war mongers can start counting. That step, from buying a bumper sticker to standing on a corner is what will end this madness.

[symbolman]

80. You said it my friend

I've been waiting for that moment to come myself, and that IS the tipping point, when the animal rears up and stands so tall that no matter where it falls, even if you wound it, it will take the hunter DOWN.

That's when the hunt ends.

thanks for your service too :)

[Morgana LaFey]

103. Symbolman, I am totally blown away. (Listen up, folks.)

First, that's one of the most powerful posts I've seen in a while, maybe forever. Had me in tears and more. (I think it also helps validate my previous post re: Let's just cut to the chase and say NO MORE WAR, period.)

Second, let me thank you personally for your service, and also (bless you, bless you!) for your service afterwards to your comrades in arms, my brothers.

Third, One Army is wonderful, powerful, fabulous. But I'm also totally thunderstruck by that trailer for Rove's War http://web.takebackthemedia.com/geeklog/public_html/staticpages/index.php?page=20051006072253761

In fact, I'm SO moved by the totality of your work -- no, that's not true, just these two flashes, that I'm going to donate so I too can own Rove's War on 2 DVDs, especially now while

YOU'RE HAVING A FUNDRAISER.

I can't afford it, but I also feel I can't afford not to. I'm really just that amazed and moved by your work.

I hope others will join me in supporting this incredible talent and important voice to the extent we can. (And yes, I know he's a DU oldtimer and DUers have supported him in the past. This just strikes me as a really good time to do it again.)

You know what else amazes me about Rove's War, just the pieces I saw, not to mention your other work? The photographic/video record. THe hours of research, the hours of whatever it is you do to make the flash magic. The commitment that is behind it, the talent that goes into it (I love seeing the juxtaposition of images, how the music works with the images, the editing, etc. Beautiful! And that's to an UNtrained eye.)

I've always known you were talented, but I really have a completely new and greatly expanded appreciation of you after this post and these flashes. Well done!

P.S. My PayPal account is totally empty. I'll have to recharge it -- somewhow -- and come back to make the donation. But I will.

[symbolman]

114. Thanks so much

I really appreciate the kudos. We try hard to get info out there, and you're right, a lot of work, sleepless nights goes into this stuff and for little or no pay when it all shakes out, though I'm so very thankful to the DU folks who have supported me a variety of times, and I hope I've given back in my own small way.

I don't know what to say, never had someone say something so super sweet like this.. I always sneak away when people start saying too much, other wise I'm usually the big mouth guy :)

Again, thanks to you..

[Morgana LaFey]

119. Well deserved, period.

As for "super sweet," well, that's not normally how I'm thought of, but I'll definitely accept your characterization -- just this once. :D

[Union Thug]

72. I'm with you.

My boys will never become killers or corpses for a rich man's war. Let the rich fight their own wars. Let them send their own children in to die. After all, they have an interest in maintaining the stats quo. My kids do not.

[democrank]

77. 11 Bravo....

Non-violent civil disobedience is long overdue. Every single march I`ve attended against the war in Iraq has had a large group of Vietnam Vets. I`m always reduced to tears when I see them and their Veterans for Peace flag. It means more to me than I could possibly express.

[BlueIris]

79. Woah. This is SO not the post I was expecting.

With all the batshit, asshole "pro-draft" for "the principle of the idea" posts we've seen around here lately, I thought for sure you were going to share with us your reason for wanting a draft, with your boys as "proof" someone can survive the horrors of war. Thanks, man. Sorry for making assumptions.

I hope you've shared your feelings with your sons.

[Lilith Velkor]

104. The doublethink has gotten incredibly deep in here

It's good to know one is not alone.

Fuck the draft.

[LWolf]

82. I'm with you.

I wasn't drafted, being female and only 10 yo in 1970.

But I'm a mom, and I stand between my boys, both 20-somethings, and the draft.

Between the moms and the former draftees, we ought to be able to create an unbreachable bulwark.

[Generic Other]

91. I stand beside you fist raised

Let the ones clamoring for a draft go sign up themselves or their families or shut up.

[BrotherBuzz]

95. I was drafted in '72 and have a twelve-year-old son

11 Bravo, you better believe I will put up a good fight, but I also have another plan and a good bit of faith. Our plan is simple: prepare our son to take on the fight, if and when the occasion arises.

We have spent a good bit of time and effort instructing our son on morals and ethics, and it's paying off. I'm not bragging (well, maybe a bit, but it's true), but our son is becoming the young leader and the grown-ups are beginning to notice. Many of us were astounded when he, unprompted, stood up and addressed the audience at a peace vigil a few years ago. He gets it, and he has a voice of reason that people listen to. My faith lies in the idea that he will become one of the many leaders to rally his contemporaries, and right the wrongs of the world. When all is said and done, it's their fight, first and foremost, and I will support him as only a father can. It's the best I can do for the future.

[mainer]

102. I'm amazed more parents didn't say this during Vietnam

A lot of parents today are just like you -- they'd die before letting anyone take their sons.

[Morgana LaFey]

105. Those parents were of a completely different generation

They were NOT raised to "question authority," but rather quite the opposite. They were not raised to be cynical about government -- at least not in the same way the Boomers learned to be cynical about our government in their youth -- but rather to believe and support our government and our leaders in every way. Memories of WWII were still fresh in their minds, which was a time when the country, absolutely EVERYONE, came together and sacrificed and did what we needed to do to defeat Hitler and win the war. They naively assumed the Vietnam war was similar, or at least that our nation's motivations for being there were pure and correct.

And since WWII was a MORAL war, and we were honor bound to support our country ("My country, right or wrong," my mother used to say just in general, as a patriotic citizen), draft dodgers and deserters were the worst possible scum, worse than criminals actually. They were cowards and traitors. (Wow, I just got an increased appreciation of the tremendous courage it took to BECOME a draft dodger and/or deserter in those days.)

[Warren Stupidity]

112. My parents completely supported us.

My brother and I refused to participate and we got nothing but support from our parents. My dad was a WWII vet, enlisted rather than get drafted, and never once thought the Vietnam war was anything other than complete folly.

[StraightDope]

108. I'd meet 'em with this...

But that's just me. :evilgrin:

[Warren Stupidity]

111. Three sons here: keep your f'ing hands off them!

I'm with you. This discussion is bullshit. WTF?