Why do we need national service?

[nadinbrzezinski]

I know some may think this is bat-shit crazy but here is the main reason

The country is dying all around you, as in the concept of community which is essential to the survival of the nation is dying, right now because we demand nothing in return for citizenship. We could demand military service, or national service, but many of the ME generation see any of this, even in the sense of returning service in a non military capacity to learn about civic virtue and civic responsibility as slavery. Apart of the fact that it boggles the mind that anybody could compare a draft to slavery, it is a fact that many nations have forms of national service. Some require military service, others require some form of social service, and others a combination of the two. Is the system perfect in any of these nations? No.... is there a sense of community in these nations beyond the me and I? Yes.

So what are some of the symptoms the country is in dire straits?


Did you know the people down in Louisiana are still living in trailers? What is even worst, people in Florida from Floyd are still living in trailers, or for that matter in the North East from floods over four years ago? We were all horrified by Katrina and the lack of response, but how many of you have followed the story? And I mean truly followed the story?

(Incidentally Katrina survivors still in the gulf coast I am aware of what is going on, and I'd like if possible to coordinate a book donation for school libraries, from DU, given that the state has no books for your children and is doing all it can to destroy an already dysfunctional educational system)

By the way these events and how we don't respond to them any longer are a reflection of the me generation. If it does not affect me, I don't care... and that attitude is killing this country.

In fact, my brother in law has argued that the country was in life support in 1996 and it died in 2000. We are both waiting to see what rises from the ashes, but it is no longer the US of A. One reason for that, the lack of civic pride, let alone civic virtue. If you need a translation of what those two terms mean, you truly missed a whole education. And you know what? Franklin was right, we were going to keep a republic as long as we chose to, but Jefferson was also aware that in order to keep it, you needed to participate. You refuse to, because it is all about me.

I don't blame you for it. You grew up in a system that enabled that and was pushed forth by those who love to atomize the country.

You know what? Mission accomplished, and very successfully as well.

[Union Thug]

1. I'm not against national service (although I am against a military draft), but

I think that the nation needs to offer something other than free market ideology in return.

If I knew that I would receive education for life, I would give up as much time as I could afford away from work to volunteer. If I knew my family was going to be cared for if they became ill, I would be right there prepared to help my fellow countrymen.

But, why bother? After all, there is no country above the free market, and the free market is just another expression for dog-eat-dog free for all. What is the incentive?

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. You just diagnosed part of the problem

thank you

The free market FOSTERS the I and me that is killing this country.

We will need revolutionary changes in how the country works. The way the free market works right now is dysfunctional and destroys people, resources, and in the long term the nation. It also creates a plutocracy not a meritocracy. Like all systems that are allowed to go on with no balance, it is completely out of kilter

So what we have entered is how do make it work?

One way is that this country NEEDS, in order to survive, a modified economic structure where certain services are "free."

These should be as follows

Medical Care
Dental Care
College\ trade education (recognizing that not everybody should or would go to college)

So the system has to have rewards for it

The above services also include pretty steep user fees, aka taxes... but in the long term benefit everybody. Yes to a point I am using Sweden as a model.

[Union Thug]

4. I agree completely.

What the free market has done is destroy any sense of a cooperative community. Our economic system pits us against each other. It is a cancerous, isolating, and aggressive system of winner take all.

I would be happy to pay much more in taxes if it meant universal access to lifelong learning and healthcare.

[Selatius]

3. National service isn't going to defeat the military-industrial complex or monopoly capitalism

All you'd be doing is providing cannon fodder for the war machine. In a different country, in another time, I would not be opposed, but I am in this time, with this thing we call the federal government. National service, alone, won't solve the problem that requires a wholesale rethinking of how we define "civilization."

Your brother in law can say what he wants, but the country "died" long before 1996. I would dare suggest many DUers would say it died Nov. 22, 1963. It's as good a date as any to pick, but I don't think it's the definitive date. Another good contender, although far less known, is the date in which the Supreme Court animated a corporation with the same basic human rights as a human being.

People want to talk about what's wrong with America, and I'm going to come out and say what's wrong with America is that its national life is not the life of a democracy. Its national life is the life of oligarchism. A few people on Wall Street hold the level of influence that would take the effort of ten million workers working against it to neutralize. The game is rigged against ordinary people in favor of industrialists, bankers, and war profiteers. Workers can win the game, but a worker has to exert more effort than any single banker or industrialist ever has to get the attention of a politician.

If you want to raise up America, you need money to do it, and only a few people in this country hold the resources and the money needed to do this, and this is where you're walking on dangerous ground because you're challenging powerful people, and no one yet has succeeded in uprooting their dominant position in society. Many have tried. Many have been killed doing so. None have succeeded so far. Eisenhower's warnings about the military industrial complex have gone unheeded by many.

If you want to know why no money has been spent on rebuilding New Orleans or the shattered remnants of the Mississippi coast, talk to the money men on Wall Street who have politicians on purse strings for their next campaign cycle.

What I'm saying is that maybe we should move toward a more democratic order. What I'm saying is maybe we should move to economic democracy.

[Union Thug]

5. I agree re. the military industrial complex side... but

I think that could be mitigated by providing options, the military would be one option, but there should be many others. And, there should be language written in to any legislation defining national service stating that under no circumstances can those in service be forced into the military.

Good post - spot on!

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. I'll give you an example

coming from the country to the south of the United States... yep that back ward country

Every kid who goes to college, whether that is a public school or private, does not matter, is required to do anywhere from six to nine months of national service. It has a name, Servicio Social, Social Service. If you don't do it, you don't get that degree, period

Why was this system imposed? The common believe was held that college was not only a right (why the UNAM was so cheap for so many years and that has led to oater problems) But it also imposed a national obligation to the community.

For example, my brother, he is a doctor, currently practicing at the Cleveland Clinic, but he was educated at the national University. He did nine months of servicio Social, at a Social Security Administration Hospital and his pay was literally a stipend so low that it would not even cover gas.

One of my cousins, she is a dentist, she also did her nine months of servicio social in a very disadvantaged area of Mexico City.

Now is this program perfect? No.

Does it have many problems in its implementation? Absolutely

Could we learn from them and do it better?

And most importantly, would a program like this where you would be required to serve your community before receiving your degree help to foster a sense of community?


I believe it would.

If you think all is just for the benefit of the rich so why try it? I can't help you... but the country is clearly dying... and one reason, civic pride and civil responsibility have been replaced by an unrelenting sense of me first, and only me.

Oh and in fact I inted to write a letter to Rangel describing this system...

On edit we can argue when the country died, but it is dead... period... and we are just waiting to see what rises from the ashes.

As to economic democracy, good luck... greed is part of human nature, and it has to be tempered.

[pitohui]

25. if mexico is better i suggest you return there

like it or not the usa is a capitalist society, encouraging and nay, even forcing, some segment of society to work for little or nothing just undercuts the value of the labor of those who actually have to put food on the table

it's like, you know what, i don't really care if junior league lady wants to come and hammer some nails in a house in new orleans but that isn't what she's doing, she's taking the "cool" jobs involving networking with leaders that could have led to a career for another woman

or look at what librarians are paid, after being required to get a master's degree, if they want enough to live on, too bad, so sad, they can be replaced by a volunteer

i'm sick of the pressure for young people and, especially, women to work for NOTHING

kids are already required to much, much, much more in the way of community service than we were asked to do when we were young, i would ask, where is the time for a kid to be a kid?

i have to admit, your public service in mexico sounds like a terrific way to guarantee that only privileged kids can become doctors, since "real" kids could not possibly work for 9 months at a job that paid so little they couldn't even buy gas

sheesh

common sense, people

if you are afraid of paying kids what they are worth, if you don't want them in the job market, fine, but don't try to paint it as some kind of liberal or progressive ideal to draft people into public service against their will

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. Why don't you re-read what I wrote before

you fire your broadside?

I did not say the system was perfect, but it works.

So all you care is about the mighty dollar and getting rich?

How RIGHT WING of you. So where is your sense of community? Or does it truly only extend to me, mine and who do I screw over so I can get ahead?

[SammyWinstonJack]

64. !!

:thumbsup:

[BlooInBloo]

7. Personally, I would rather have INTERnational service for kidults for 1-2 years....

... Next to terminal and cancerous anti-intellectualism, I think that provinciality is the source of the worst of America's flaws.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Yes that could always be part of a program

kidn of peace corp on steroids

;-)

[BlooInBloo]

9. Yup. Military service would *count* towards the requirement, naturally...

... but there would/should/could/damn-if-this-world-wouldn't-be-a-better-place-if-we-cared-enough-to-do-it be a host of other modes of service as well - and yah, I'm thinking very generically Peace-Corps-esque here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Trust me I realize this

part of the problem we have had in the discusion is that most folks here automatically assume national service equials military service.

It should not... even if that is one valid form.

But we can move from the general to the particular... and then try to get our politicos to pay attention becuase I think we are at a crisis point

[Selatius]

11. I wouldn't mind reviving some long-dead FDR era programs

I'm talking things like the CCC and the WPA. Those were good programs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. The CCC is still alive (at lest in Califirnia it is)

but those are good models of how to focus national service and we both know national infrastructure needs fixing.

[BlooInBloo]

13. Woohoo! the Council of Concerned Citizens rides again!!!

teasing, of course.

[Ms. Toad]

19. The reason most folks assume

national service equals military service is that the laws/bills are written that way. The previous version of the draft bill (I have not read Rangle's) required all individuals to go through military training regardless of the form of service they would ultimately render.

Even once you get past that, the benefits associated with military options for service have always far outweighed those associated with non-military service. The benefits should be the same so selection of military service is not weighted by the better benefits associated with it.

If there is a national service bill introduced which is unrelated to the military draft, with the exception that service in the military is one option for carrying out that service, I would be willing to consider supporting it - but then that bill wouldn't coerce the discussion that is purportedly the motivation for Rangle's introduction of the draft bill.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Rangel has gotten the discusion going

his goal is quite simople. Luis, his real name, I met him yesterday, is looking forwards for six years of fun and games courtesy of the US Navy... he has no choice. that is the only way his family could afford collecge for him. In fact his brother Enrique is looking at a delayed entry next yyer for the same reason

They don't... can we say McDonnald's type work for the rest of their lives?

They have been succesfully recruited in a harsh economic draft, and that has to stop.... so I can certainly understand Ragel's drive.

The point remains, you don't beleive in a military national service, provide alaternatives to your politicians. By the way, I believe we need it, like yesterday, as a nation.

[Ms. Toad]

24. I have,

and I also regularly contribute to (and off and on have been on the governing body of) an organization which has a stronger voice than I have on my own with respect to influencing the politicians that is actively working toward peaceful resolution of conflict including by removing the cause of wars - which includes the devastating poverty too much of our country - and far more of other countries experience..

But whether or not I have done any of these things is irrelevant. I do not believe introducing a military draft is an appropriate way to begin a discussion that either (a) a mandatory national service program is needed or (b) the war in Iraq is wrong.

If the goal is (a) or (b), you start by introducing a bill aimed at (a) or (b) - not by introducing a bill proposing (c). Simple as that.

That says nothing about the undeniably tough situation folks like Luis or his brother find themselves in, but those situations will not be resolved by imposing a military draft. We need improved education in rural/urban areas, access to good counseling about and assistance in to locating non-military scholarships, assistance in staying in college (in a variety of ways - countering the influence of peers who aren't there, the pull of parents who need assistance paying the rent, study habits that are not are not as refined as their college peers, etc.) and access to health care so a single health complication doesn't destroy a dream, etc. Did you notice "draft the rich" in that list? Its not there because it is not a solution to the crisis of poverty that makes military look like a desirable (or the only) option for young men like Luis and his brother.

Rangel's discussion only leads to more military entrenchment - not exploration of other, better, options. We need to leave the "might makes right" mindset behind if we are ever move our country beyond being the biggest bully on the block, and you don't get there by advocating more military.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Well we can agree to disagree on

Rangel's methodology.. all I can say it's worked. People, at least here, are having the discusion, as well as some lovely screaming matches. So I'd say he's been succesful in getting the discusion going.

By the way, the chances of his bill passing are far worst than that of an iceball in hell, but I'm sure you knew that

;-)

[ClintonTyree]

14. My daughter and I were discussing this the other night.....

she was a student at Tulane University, graduated this past May. Students were REQUIRED to do community service after returning for Spring semester after Katrina hit. She said it was a great experience and that it gave the students a direct link to the suffering and myriad problems associated with the rebuilding of New Orleans. Many students have stayed on after graduation to help, they feel that they have a stake in the area's redevelopment and that the hands-on experience will be good for them later in life.
I've been down there 3 times (a week at a time) since Katrina hit to do whatever I could to help. There's just SOOOOO much to do that whatever you do seems like a drop in the proverbial bucket. I know that between my daughter and myself we actually did some good and helped people but it's hard to judge. There's still so much more that needs to be done.
There are still 99,000 families living in FEMA trailers in the Gulf States. I told her that Bush's promises to the area were hollow, that the money promised for rebuilding the area has gone by the wayside (Iraq). Another abject failure from "The Decider". :grr:
After Katrina hit the people of our country opened up their wallets and volunteered in record numbers. For most, giving money was as far as they were going to go as far as helping solve the problem. That's understandable since these people have lives of their own to maintain as well. It's our government that has failed us. Miserably. But there are no more photo-ops remaining in the Gulf now that the elections are over, there's no more "political capital" to be gained by revisiting the area and most people have forgotten the complete and total devastation the area suffered. It's business as usual for most of America and our government doesn't care. Meanwhile, the Gulf States are left to their own devices to deal with the problems. It's no longer a cause celebre, it's yesterday's news. All of our country's resources are being sent to Iraq to "win" an un-winable war of choice foisted upon us by the Bush Administration.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Can you help me

at least me, send a couple books for a school library?

Trust me I wish I could do more than we are right now... like drive clear across country and get my hands dirty... but my present circumstances have prevented this for a while.

And yes I see our lack of response at the federal level as a symptom of something far larger

If you can just PM me

[Warren Stupidity]

74. So about that required part...

you're saying your daughter would have gone to jail had she refused? I thought not. Also, does Tulane have a long history of overseas military adventures?

The state and a university are not operating on the same plane of compulsion.

I still think that compulsary altruism is self defeating.

[ClintonTyree]

75. No, she wouldn't have gone to jail....

:eyes: they would have withheld her diploma. Really. Contrary to your opinion I believe it was good for the students to get involved, compulsory or not. I don't see it as being compulsory altruism. Of course all of these students aren't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts and not all of them will take away anything from it, but it does expose them to something that a lot of them wouldn't experience otherwise.

[Warren Stupidity]

76. "I don't see it as being compulsory altruism"

So it wasn't compulsory or it wasn't altruism?

[ClintonTyree]

92. Obviously, it was compulsory........

therefore it wasn't altruistic. Anything else I can clear up for you? :eyes: Do you find something inherently offensive about the students being required to lend a hand in the city's recovery or are you merely nitpicking?

[Warren Stupidity]

93. No I simply didn't understand what you meant.

And yes I find compulsory service wrong, even when it is done for good reasons and with good results. The students of Tulane should have been strongly encouraged to volunteer for community service and provided with all sorts of incentives for doing so, not compelled.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. Hmm I say bravo for Tulane

and they got something back for it.

Personal statisfaction and a degreee. Why is everything measured in dollars in sense? Somethings you cannot put the dollar sign on.

Incentives my ass.. they got one very strong one, you want your degree, here you go.

Oh I'm sorry, you may break a nail or be late for that job at that company making six dollar income.

:sarcasm:

The coddled generation, really

[lligrd]

16. My Only Problem

with National Service is that it demands one embrace and pay service to one's country. I love my country as long as it is in the right and am more than willing to do my share. But what about when it isn't right, like now? My very soon to be, 18 year old son thinks it would be good for kids his age to do something good gor humanity. How about human service?

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Read Jefferson on the subject

the highest form of patriotism is dissent. Part of the problem is that you really need to love your country to take the risks that dissent entails

By the way, welcome to DU.

[xchrom]

17. i agree and diverse programs are the answer.

from the military to forest service to peace corps and inner city schools.

one of the things that has become apparent and become appalling is the disconnect between citizen and government during the bushco era.

while bushco got their war on -- the only sacrifice required of citizens has been to ''shop''.

i don't suggest military service only -- but many will choose that and that's good -- leaders would have to be held more immediately accountable for foolish actions -- and more citizens would feel the governments foolishness if it chooses that.

in this country at any rate -- the government and citizens are not and should not be alienated from each other -- they are the same.

[Swamp Rat]

18. k&r

[Greyhound]

22. Conscription = involuntary = slavery. It is a linear equation, what part

is confusing you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Quite simple

I can't buy conscripts in any way, shape or form, and force them to become part of my estate.

What part of this is confusing to you?

Oh and conscripts go home after their tour of duty is over, and even during leave, slaves go to the grave after a short or Long life of working for their masters and they can be bought and sold, as well as inherited.

I hope this clarifies this for you.

If it doesn't, then we truly have nothing else to say to each other on the subject.

[Greyhound]

27. To force compliance through threat of violence (the only tool available to government)

is to relegate the individual to the status of property of the state, this is antithetical to the concept of the American republic. Our government is only legitimate through the consent of the governed, to remove that consent is in effect, slavery. The only exception to this is in the case of a crime being committed and that is not the case in your scenario.

As for the conscripts going home, that is also not true, many die during the conscription period, even in such non-military organizations such as the Peace Corps. So you are advocating a system where you give the government the right to forcibly take the lives of its citizens to achieve whatever goals it sees fit. Again, this is as un-American as you can get, try to break out of the brainwashing, it is a lie.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. When I can buy a recrut we can talk ok

[alfredo]

28. I think Clinton's idea of public service to help pay for

college should be expanded and emphasized. It shouldn't be mandatory, but it should be seen as a positive to employers. Those who give a year or two in public service should get preference in hiring just like veterans. Military veterans should still get the top preference.

It should be a part of our culture, a rite of passage into adulthood.

[Greyhound]

32. Were you in any of your American history classes?

The essential principle of this country is government by the consent of the governed, not coercion of the governed, not threat of loss of livelihood of the governed, not submission of the governed. Any and all of the programs you or I can invent would be greatly helpful and make this country better, but when you talk about force and coercion you've abandoned the source of our government's legitimacy and created another form of totalitarianism.

Careful what you wish for, you will probably get it.

[alfredo]

36. I didn't call for it to be mandatory, but highly desirable on

a person's resume. I ended with saying service should be part of our culture as a way of accepting the duties of an adult.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

41. And a lot of people here are giving that consent based upon what I am reading.

[Greyhound]

80. There ya go, no real need to force people against their will. n/t

[Mythsaje]

78. personally, this would be my preference...

I don't like the idea of coerced service.

[TahitiNut]

30. So, I was a slave?

My uncles were slaves? Did my father escape slavery by enlisting in the Navy in WW2?

Were the women (and others exempt from the draft) slave-holders?

I really think that's a detestable characterization. Saying it as hyperbole is one thing, but repeating it with any degree of seriousness is appalling.

Where could I buy a slave (i.e. a draftee)? :eyes:

Why does it make no difference to people who spout this nonsense that 90 years of court litigation has rejected the 'servitude' claim? Even 'liberal' courts have rejected this nonsense.

How can service to one's self be regarded as slavery? It's just like a kid claiming that being 'forced' to clean up his own room or take out the trash is being made a slave.

It's nonsense.

[Greyhound]

33. The difference is force, plain and simple. IIRC you were drafted against your will.

For some number of years you were literally property of the U.S. Government, a G.I. and therefore enslaved. Court decisions do not make an issue right, as can be demonstrated by the endless litany of bad decisions at every level of our court system for the whole history of our country. If you are not free to refuse, to walk away, then you are not free, period.

Please don't misunderstand, many of us feel a sense of duty and come from families with very long histories of military service (mine goes back consistently over 400 years, and if you are at all familiar with the histories of the British and American Navies you would recognize the name), but that does not change the basic truth of conscription. I imagine the very first member of my family to serve may well have been pressed into service and for some reason it caught on with us.

If you like you can call it indentured servitude since there is a time limit, for that matter if you like, you can call it "Fuzzy the wonderdog" it doesn't change what it is. What do you call it if you don't survive to reach that time?

Voluntary service to the country is the highest form of service there is (religious debate aside), but if it is not given freely, in what is perceived by the volunteer to be a good cause, it is simply theft of life.

[TahitiNut]

35. But I was 'free' to walk away. About 30 miles to Canada.

Many did. I don't think slaves are free to do that. I'll always support both immigration and emigration ... and I don't believe a person's right to leave should be encumbered.

[Warren Stupidity]

72. You were not free to walk away.

You faced a five year prison term for doing so. That became moot as resistance increased, but the threat of incarceration remained on the books until Carter short circuited it with his blanket pardon.

[TahitiNut]

29. Remember, too, that 'volunteers' are penalized.

Our 'volunteer' military is presumed to be career military. I remember when Pat Tillman volunteered. OMG! He's sacrificing his NFL career! (That was the prevalent attitude.)

Draftees have the (purported but imperfect) protection of employment - where employers are supposedly obligated to re-employ them at the same level, (allegedly) with the pay increases they'd otherwise would have received, after their service was completed. Volunteers have no such protections, however imperfect those protections are in practice.

The implicit presumption that a 'volunteer' is a career military is what makes it a "professional" military - an interest group in itself and far more amenable to the Military-Industrial Complex Ike warned us about.

As a society, we penalize 'volunteers' who might presume to return after 2-3 years and expect re-employment. Anyone who thinks employers were eager to re-employ draftees (or volunteers) after WW2 or Viet Nam just don't know what happened in those days.

[alarimer]

31. How can anyone afford to volunteer?

Not for the military but for other things. Many, many people graduate from college with enormous debts that require a paying job to pay off. Plus food and housing are not cheap anymore. I guess the program could include debt forgiveness but that doesn't pay living expenses. Unless the "volunteer work" was a good-paying job or very part-time, I don't see how this could fly.

Plus making it mandatory sort of defeats the purpose of volunteerism.

[TahitiNut]

34. I actually think that when the majority choose to make it mandatory

... that's the same as 'voluntary.' As a liberal, I don't believe in victimizing the minority for the sake of the majority. But that's exactly what we've got when we have military service that coerces the least-advantaged and doubles and triples their service ('voluntary') obligation by the 'back-door draft' ... stop-loss, etc. That's why, as a liberal, I believe in 'volunteering as a nation' to serve. The fact of the matter is that we won't have a draft unless the majority can be convinced/educated that it's morally and ethically appropriate. That, in effect, makes it 'voluntary' in that we're volunteering together - all of us.

Back when this nation was founded, it was intrinsic to the Constitution that the nation's military would be formed from the "citizen militia" - that all people had the right to bear arms and that was the very basis on which an Army would be formed. This is why the House of Representatives (the "People's House") was given sole war-making authority and funding for the military is Constitutionally-limited to two years - where the House must provide funds by affirmative legislation if its to continue. There was no accommodation for a permanent career-military in the Constitution. None. Even General George Washington regarded himself FIRST as a grower and plantation-owner and second as a military person. Clearly, they were steeped in the era of aristocracies and noblesse oblige - all entitled people served, much like the males in Britain's Royal Family all serve in the military. But they clearly regarded the nation's military as being a citizen army - and the Constitution presumed conscription, which was the finding of SCOTUS even when Lincoln started the first draft.

So, when the People, as sovereign, vote as a majority (through our Representatives) to enact a draft ... it's the voluntary act of a democratic nation.

Like highway speed limits and public education.


And just like the Viet Nam era, I support people's right to leave. People can go to Canada. (I hear the language isn't that difficult to learn.) I support the human 'right' to civil disobedience; clearly, some would rather be in a 'safe' prison than in Iraq ... for the same amount of time. I support respecting a track-record of Conscientious Objection - medics.

[bobbolink]

38. You're right--people can leave, people can organize in resistance,

people can go to prison, people can apply for CO status.

I'm very saddened to see the depth of "let (poor) Joe do it--I'm too good".

I'm saddened that there is so very little understanding of the depth of poverty in this nation, and the FORCE it has to get people into the military. It isn't just education--some can't even get their teeth cleaned without joining the military-- how in the HELL is that "Freedom"?

"None of us is free until All are free."

[TahitiNut]

46. Agreed. It's beyond tragic.

It's worse. It's a indication, to me, that if such opinions are prevalent then the chances of surviving as anything even approximating a democracy (or "Constitutional republic") are nil. As long as we see governance as 'them' and not 'us' we've lost the chance to be sovereign over ourselves. Then we'll get a 'draft' and it'll be anything but 'fair' ... and the idea of incentives will seem like some pipe dream. China. North Korea. Singapore.

[bobbolink]

47. It's explaining to me why there is so little concern about homeless people.

I couldn't figure out what happened. IN my dirtyhippiecommiepinkobum days, we were ALL very concerned about poverty (there wasn't the homelessness then.) We talked about it a lot, and, since there was more being done governmentally (Johnson), we didn't feel as pressured to do more ourselves, but we did support what the Black Panthers were doing, etc.

A few of us have been trying to figure out just what the hell has happened. I see threads on poverty here sink all the time. Yet, when I say something about that, I get either dismissed or dissed.

What you've said to me about the attitude toward national service seems to fit for poverty, also, and ... well, now I'm really depressed. I've been giving up hope for a long time now, but this is another step down. When "liberals" and "progressives" don't see ourselves as connected both to those who are homeless (like me), and those who are in effect conscripted because they *have no choices*, I don't see any light for that tunnel.

Your choice of "us and them" is exactly right, and we are badly in need of grasping that. As an Episcopal priest said in a sermon many years ago, when asked about pornographt, he said his idea of pornography was the whole concept of "us and them". I've come to understand the depth of that more as the years go by.

We are *all* doing the "us and them" thing, and if we don't begin to look at that, we can't last, as you so eloquently point out.

You've brought a thought to me... maybe we're all less introspective than we used to be??? Maybe we don't take the time to really look into ourselves, and question our assumptions and beliefs? Could that be it?

I feel so much a "them", and I don't see that ending any time soon. The pain of that is not easy to bear, and I'm not even shipped off with a rifle to shoot someone I have no quarrel with.

Thank you for your service, TahitiNut, and thank you even more for the introspection and growth you have obviously pursued. I appreciate it.

[TahitiNut]

52. The "introspection thing"

True. I don't see a lot of it ... and often feel like I'm regarded as being from another planet for even doing it. ("What? You must think you're better than me!" No, not really.) It's never been enough for me to "do the right thing" ... so I've sought to 'tune' my insides so it comes naturally. I eschew "political correctness" for myself because I've sought to change my heart and conscience so it'd never be a question of compliance - just a matter of saying what I really thought and really felt. (Clearly, I still have lots of work to do. I always will, I suppose. I'm no less inherently fallible than any human.)

Part of it was the Jesuits ... and learning about Kant's Categorical Imperative ... and the difference between a deontological ethical philosophy and a consequentialist ethical philosophy. Of course, the Jesuits were deontologists. I resisted. But I wound up being a deontologist as well.

I must make moral choices as though I'd want everyone in the world to make them in the same context (NOT the same personal circumstances, though). That's why Rawls appeals to me. That's why I'm a liberal. I don't regard it as "intellectual" - I regard it as real and everyday.

It seems to me that if I want anyone to do something, I should be willing to do it myself. It also seems to me that, unless I were to give up on even the efforts make my nation ever more democratic, that such a 'social contract' requires participation - participation in the discussion, participation in the choosing, and participation in fulfilling the result. The only other choices I'd have are to leave or revolt.

I was taught a long time ago that the Enlightenment resulted in People choosing self-governance (whether the form were a parliamentary republic, a Constitutional republic, or a representative democracy) over an Autocracy (whether aristocratic or plutocratic) under the following tenets.

Even though an autocracy might sometimes seem better and that an autocrat could make better, more effective decisions than the People, that history has shown us that the People wind up bearing the costs and the aristocrats collecting the benefits. So, while self-governance might be less expert and less efficient, at least it would mean some justice in equitable sharing of both the costs and the benefits. I NEVER thought of 'costs' in terms of money and whatever one could afford. I thought of it in terms of blood, sweat, and tears ... the real currency of life.

The only way I could be against uniform military service (a draft) is if I thought there was no reasonable chance we'd ever recover control over our self-governance. But at that point, why do anything?? How can people even work to have "Democrats" elected if it's not about taking back self-governance? How can we even care about politics if it's not about self-governance?

I dunno. :shrug:


If I thought the only reason to favor or oppose the draft were whether it would lead to an expansion of killing in the Middle East, I'd probably oppose it. The funny thing is that this seems to be the limit and the crux of most positions .. as though the draft would be the ONLY determinant of whether we left Iraq or flooded it with more bodies. The same folks who're claiming opposition to the draft because it'd be used to flood Iraq with bodies seem to be the ones most dismissive of the draft being a negative influence on people's support for a war. (Never mind whether people are supportive of ANY war.)

But even independent of whether a draft has one impact or the opposite - or none at all - it seems to me that the people who're already in the military, the people who've already been in the active military and are being reactivated, and the people in our National Guard deserve to have us stand by them and share the burden.

It is STILL imperative that we take control of our self-governance, exit both Iraq and Afghanistan, and prosecute the criminals who committed these crimes IN OUR NAME.

If it wasn't IN OUR NAME, then why do we care? If it IS in our name, then we should stand together.

[BlackVelvet04]

40. "I actually think that when the majority choose to make it mandatory

that's the same as 'voluntary."

Un-friggin'-believable.

[TahitiNut]

44. What about 'volunteering as a nation' didn't you comprehend?

Do you REALLY want a privateered military? a privateered Congress? a privateered Presidency?

Is EVERYTHING a matter of "the best money can buy" and the cheapest we can get away with - as long as we can repress people economically enough that they'll do it for pocket change?

Because there's ALMOST NOTHING 'voluntary' about people who see military service as their only chance at an education, clean clothing, room and board, and medical care.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

45. Have you ever studied any political theory?

And if so -- to which one do you subscribe?

[TahitiNut]

87. (crickets)

:eyes: Navel-gazing, I think. :rofl:

[bobbolink]

101. crickets or snark..... seems to be the DU m.o.

Sometimes I can't answer for a while because I'm dependent upon a library computer, and for some silly reason, the library isn't always open. :)

However, ignoring reasonable responses seems to be a pattern here.

It's really a shame we have such a hard time having reasonable discussions.

Clearly, this nation isn't ready for a national service. That's too bad, because it could be very helpful.

:shrug:

[alarimer]

42. I just can't accept mandatory service of any kind

it just does not sit right with me. Not without free universal health care and completely free college and higher education. Our country really does not deserve any better from us since it does not serve most of us very well at all.

[GreenArrow]

43. not to worry!

If you serve, they'll give you a ten dollar a month discount on your (mandatory) health insurance!

[GreenArrow]

37. competing pressures: mandatory "service" and privatization

It'll be interestin' to see how these two ideas play off of each other. The greater the degree of privatization, the less the degree of civic duty involved.

A National mandatory "service" program at this particular point in time, is nothing but a faith-based initiatives program for the benefit of corporate and private interests, and as such will do little to foster a greater sense of citizenship, but rather, it will work to further concretize an already virulent nationalism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Depends on how you go about it

I can tell you that national service can be done without working for Halliburton. In fact, if it was proposed to help Halliburton make a buck, this is not what I envision.

[BlackVelvet04]

39. You can't and don't build a sense of community

by forcing people to serve. What you create is RESENTMENT.

[bobbolink]

48. And the people who are busy resenting are forming community.

Look at the bonds right here at DU with those who served. It's tangible.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

49. Damnit !!

You said in 13 words what I couldn't put together in 100. Good on you bobolink!

:applause: :patriot:

[bobbolink]

50. I promise it'll never happen again....

:hi:

Thanks... I really needed that today!

You actually counted 'em??

:yourock:

[HCE SuiGeneris]

51. I had the start of rant... erm rebuttal

but your post was infinitely better.

:hi: :dem: :yourock:

[TahitiNut]

53. Wow! Succinct and on-target rebuttal.

Well said!! :applause: It's undeniable.

[BlackVelvet04]

55. No, it's nonsense. n/t

[BlackVelvet04]

54. That's really such a stupid reply it doesn't deserve a response but

I'll give one anyway. The skinheads have a sense of community built on resentment and anger, neo-nazis do, the KKK did, gangs do as well. When you build a community on resentment and anger, it AIN'T gonna be a good one.

Please, pull your head out of the rose colored haze.

[TahitiNut]

56. So, you're saying that the 'community' ...

... of antiwar activists filled with resentment toward the 'establishment' and war in Viet Nam - the "flower children" - was a bad community, then?

Interesting. :eyes:

[BlackVelvet04]

57. I didn't say it was bad, although

YES at times it was destructive. The sense of community DIDN'T LAST. I don't have ties with those people any more and last I knew they didn't have ties with each other...it was situational and a force of circumstances. I have ties with other people of MY CHOOSING.

[bobbolink]

59. Do we need to keep having this same conversation???!!!

Do you happen to remember anything about the assassinations?

About agent provocateurs?

About Kent State?

About the assassinations?

[TahitiNut]

63. Kent State ... the ultimate tragic irony

May 1970 ... the 'new, improved' draft was in effect and student deferments were only good until the end of the term. That was one month away for the 'unlucky ones' whose number was up. It was a "Brave New World" for some - at least 2/3rds true.

Until 1970, maintaining a full-time student status was even better than the National Guard for staying out of Viet nam.

So, what we had was a violent confrontation between two groups of people "staying out of Viet Nam" ... a confrontation precipitated by 'establishment' politicians and police on one side, and by townies, bar-hoppers and Devil's Night types on the other side (in the days leading up to May 4th - the day of the shootings).

In Nixonian Republican Governor Jim Rhodes' Ohio - about as conservative a state as we had in those days.

The iconic photo of the girl raising her arms in anguish over the dead student lying on the sidewalk ... was a 14-year-old runaway, a girl found guilty of theft and prostitution.

What an absolutely appalling waste ... divide and conquer!

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbolink]

58. Me, BAD!!

Power to the people, right on! Power to the people, right on!
:hippie: :hippie: :hippie: :hippie: :hippie: :hippie:
Power to the people, right on! Power to the people, right on!
:hippie: :hippie: :hippie: :hippie: :hippie: :hippie:
Power to the people, right on! Power to the people, right on!
:hippie: :hippie: :hippie: :hippie: :hippie: :hippie:
Power to the people, right on! Power to the people, right on!
:hippie: :hippie: :hippie: :hippie: :hippie: :hippie:

:hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi:

[bobbolink]

61. It also puts me in pretty good company, along with MLK and countless others

So, I'll just let your snark drift on by....

byebye... by

[USA_1]

60. "we demand nothing in return for citizenship "

Yes we do: we ask for good citizenship, voting every year, paying your taxes, observing speed limits, cleaning up your frontways, sending kids off to school, volunteering at the local PTA or church, and in writing to your Congressman or letters to the editor.

Just about every other Western nation asks for the same without imposing a military draft. So why should we?


Heck, I'm now well into my 50s, offered to enlist in the military during the Vietnam war (failed the medical portion so I couldn't get in -- BTW, I OPPOSED the war), have no criminal record of any kind, have always worked (don't believe in welfare), have always paid my taxes, was a volunteer sports coach for recreational youth teams, done other volunteer work, write to my political reps, vote in every election, and greet the bus driver with a "good morning" every day. While others have been more contributive, I know in my heart that I've done my part to make this a better society.

Each of us can serve our friends and neighbors in our own ways. We do not need to be forced to do anything especially as servitude of the kind you prefer only promotes resentment as the rich always get away with not doing their part while the poor pay for their sins.

There is no need for a draft or any form of mandatory service.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

65. And some things I saw early 90's...

I finished college a little later than most my age. Civics class made it mandatory to serve in a soup-kitchen, nursing home as a reader, garbage collection along the highway... etc. I would say 40-50 % of the class were dis-pleased at having to be "put-out" to perform tasks outside their "norm". Our next class after completion of our "jobs", was the one of the most enlightening experiences I have ever had. These (50-55) people were the most spirited and TRULY happy people I have ever seen in any environment. This wasn't a religious brain-washing. It was community serving the people in the community. And it instilled joy, accomplishment and self-value that was far beyond my comprehension at the time. I know you won't fathom what I am saying BlackVelvet (your mind is set), but a community doing good things for the individuals that make up that community, is a win-win event.

[bobbolink]

66. THank you so much for that!

This old geezer is pleased to hear that kind of revelation happening in school these days.

May that revelation befall ALL younguns!

:pals:

thanks.....

[USA_1]

113. "a community doing good things for the individuals that make up that community, is a win-win event"

True, when done voluntarily as in your example.


Now try imposing those duties on wealthy elites who don't believe in soiling their hands in doing an honest day's work.

Service to your community is a great thing and I know that from years of personal experience. But it isn't for everybody. Moreover, it isn't required in the UK or in Canada but those societies thrive quite nicely without mandatory service.

Don't worry about what somebody else is doing or is failing to do. Just set a good example by serving your own community. Let others follow your example volitionally rather than out of compulsion. That will make for a better society.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. Ok, let me ask you a silly question

do you know, and I mean really know who your neighbors are?

If you answered yes it is the exception.

Now here is another great myth. We don't ask anything in return for citizenship

It is a very right wing idea (recent mind you) that taxes are all you have to do to meet your obligations and that alone will build community. In fact, the Right was all for civic responsibly (beyond taxes and not running a red light).

What is more? Voting... part of the contract, if a bare minimum... be truthful now, now many people vote?

Heck, tomorrow I have to go for Jury Duty, and since I am a naturalized citizen and gosh darn it they KNOW statistically I will be there every time... I get them once a year. My brother in law, has gotten two in the last 20 years. So what is my choice beyond showing up and doing my civic duty? Never mind I am starting to see a pattern... wittingly or unwittingly more is demanded.

[bobbolink]

67. For a change, this is a fairly decent conversation. How 'bout some Recommends!!

pleeeeeez?

Thanks!

[HCE SuiGeneris]

68. Just did :-) !

[bobbolink]

100. Thanks!!

:hi:

[emanymton]

69. Ideas To Be Considered.

§ ---

A national community draft can be a useful tool for social engineering. Combining this with a military service draft can be beneficial to all. The idea could be a useful program for improving the future for _all_ Americans. The Democratic Party might find this a useful movement.

Requiring members of a community to perform public service as a part of being included in a community benefits both the person and society. This is done by connecting the person to the community. Keeping people involved with the system. Keeping system honest.

Drafting members of a community into service to and for the good of the community has benefits.

1 reinforces the connection of the knowledgeable individual to the community. Reinforcing the connection of the person to the community by allowing the person to provide needed services. (Pool of trained representatives available to use within the community.) Working as a trained life-guard at the local community swimming pool gives outlet for quality of life activities and programs.

2 keeps the people involved with their community and society. Community centers with well trained and profession staff keep the human network working for people. It involves people in their communities. An example of this is parents, as their children go through school become active in the school.

3 ensures the system remains true to its roots and focused on serving the individuals/community/country. The flow of people into and through the system ensure the system provides the desired services. The system is not a mystery. The administration held accountable from within. Schools work best when administration, parents and students are directly involved.

A young person can be given a choice to enter military service or go into community service. In the end, society has a pool of trained talent ready for extended use to the community.

Leading the society for the good of the society has always been a successful concept that has helped the progressive and liberals improve the world we live in. The Democratic Party has to remember from where it has come and then lead US back there again.


§ ___

[HCE SuiGeneris]

90. The post above me needs to be read. Agree or not, but bother to read these logical points

[bobbolink]

102. And, just look at ALL the replies to that logical post!!

Is it any wonder that so many people have given up trying to talk reason here?

I'm just saddened.

Very cogent points made there.... too bad it's left to wither on the vine.

I'm really sorry about that.

[emanymton]

105. Work For What You Believe - Allow Others To Follow. Worry Not

that others do not understand. Actions speak louder than words.

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. Correct

;-)

[Jim Sagle]

70. So that the Serious People in DC have something to clear their fat throats and

harrrummmmmphhhhh about.

[Stinky The Clown]

71. I regret that I have but one rec to give this post!

But that one rec I give from my head and my heart.

[Warren Stupidity]

73. As long as it is voluntary it is fine with me.

But when you dress that pig of a military draft up and put lipstick on it and call it the Civilian Conservation Corp or whatever, you are putting the draft back into operation and the clowns in washington will be taking our children, sticking guns in their hands and putting them in humvees on the streets of Tehran and Damascus. No thanks. Still a pig of a military draft. I ain't fooled.

Oh and if you want a plan to kill the Democratic Party deader than dead, by all means be the party that seriously proposes reinstating the draft.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Let me see

we are loosing our kids on the strets of baghdad... every day. I guess since they "volunteered" they are disposable.

By the way, if you read the conversation you would have noticed that indeed my idea does include civlian service... even if the CCC was paramilitary and in fact still is. I guess you'd get why if you fought a couple fires

[Warren Stupidity]

94. "I guess since they "volunteered" they are disposable"

no Nadine, the war is wrong and the fact that they volunteered doesn't make it right. You have invented an argument for me that I did not make. How nice of you. The draft would enable even bigger bad wars. You appear to fail to understand that simple point.

CCC is and was voluntary. I'm fine with voluntary service, you aren't. You want to make me do good deeds at gunpoint. You do not appear to understand why that is wrong.

So when the Rangel supporters made their case with 'but he doesn't really want the draft, it is just a rhetorical device' was that just a rhetorical device? It seems to me that essentially the same people here are now arguing that the draft would be a real good thing. I conclude that quite a few of them were simply lying back when they were explaining Rangel's ploy to all of us who 'just didn't get it'. We got it. No draft. No Way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. It has been proven to you that a draft where everybody's

skin is in the game will either lead to a war that needs to be fought (WW II, where it was merely a formality) or end the war, the 1970 on draft

You have no clue what the military is saying about the sons and daughters of the very well to do, like Paris Hilton who go round the world while they go on their fifth tour, or how much they resent the freepers, who wish them to fight wars for them, or anybody else. When they come home this country is still shopping. War, what war?

And that is the bottom line

Oh and the argument about disposable, you may want to take it to the few Marines I've talked to recently who feel that way.

[Warren Stupidity]

106. It has been proven to me?

What?

"It has been proven to you that a draft where everybody's skin is in the game will either lead to a war that needs to be fought (WW II, where it was merely a formality) or end the war, the 1970 on draft"

I'm sorry but no such thing has been proven to me. The truly daft idea that nixon's lottery reform of 1970 ended the vietnam war is pathetic. The only thing it proves is just how dangerously foolish you and your fellow true believers are.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. The statistics and the history of the end of the darft

prove it... even Zihn has spoken of this in the History of the People of the US.

[Blackthorn]

83. And the best solution is forcing people to participate?

The same way we're forcing Democracy on Iraq, whether they fucking like it or not. You need to give people a choice, because only then will you have a genuine commitment and genuine effort. Modern society is designed to breed apathy, its designed to make everybody think on an individual level and to ignore the 'greater good'.

Forcing people to participate is not going to make a better society. People have to WANT a better society.

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. Tell me why do programs like this

work in the UK, France, Sweden, hell even Mexico? But not in the lovely US of A, is it just me, or what is truly going on?

I'm serious... this is a very serious question. Why do programs of national service work in other countries but not here? Why are we that different? I'd say it's by design. Civic Virtue and community have been utterly destroyed by those in power and have atomized the citizens to the point that people have developed an attitude... if it ain't my skin, I don't care. Mission accomplished by the way.

[Blackthorn]

86. I agree entirely n/t

[ArbustoBuster]

88. I don't trust this government as far as I can throw it.

Under Bush or one of the Republicans like him, how do we keep national service from being construed as "go to that protected forest and cut it all down" or "go to the border with Mexico and shoot anyone crossing it who looks too brown"?

Laws certainly won't keep it from happening. We learned with the warrantless wiretapping and the outing of Valerie Plame that the Republicans don't give a damn what the law says; they do whatever they want. And delivering millions of young people into their hands to do with as they please...well, I don't like that idea one iota.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. Your first lesson that most have forgotten

WE are the government... so there has to be a way to make sure that national service is done in a way that benefits the country, not the few.

By the way, as long as WE the people allow the bushies to do what they want to do, they will continue to

Their first taste of we the people was on Nov 7th, and alas I hope it stays as an effective lesson

[ArbustoBuster]

91. I haven't forgotten that at all.

However, until the government is actually back in the hands of the people - which will be the first time it will truly have been there since before I was born - I refuse to allow the government any claim on our lives in the way you suggest.

I don't trust this government. How can we trust the government that gave us Iran-Contra, Watergate, and the Iraq War? I'm not convinced that national service won't be corrupted by the Republicans. I'm not convinced that the children of the rich and connected won't get out of service through means that are either legal and built into the national service law, or through means that are extra-legal but treated with a wink and a nod by the rich and connected authorities.

We have complete and incontrovertible evidence that this government has been lying to us and breaking the law for the last several years. Until that has been completely corrected and methods have been put into place to keep it from ever happening again, I cannot accept that any plan for mandatory national service will be used for the common good instead of for corrupted goals.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. Then be ready for me to tell you

that we will not take it back as long as we just discuss these things on internet forums and DO NOTHING beyond grouse and maybe vote.

It takes far more for people to get involved than just talking, even if that is the first step... and that participation is no longer taught by those who would win the most out of it. THis also means that any national service project, which has been with us in proposal forms with us for the last 100 years in one form or another, will go nowhere.

[ArbustoBuster]

104. How does mandatory national service help us take back the government?

I don't see that at all. If anything, I think it would make people believe that something was being done to rectify problems, which would push many people further into the mire of not paying attention to politics and our government. And that's when corruption flourishes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. Well I will explain this with two anecdotes from

jury duty today...

1.- We were in the jury waiting room, a thousand or so people, from all walks of life waiting for an assignment. Now I'll be honest, Jury Duty is not something most of us look forward to... but at least for me well it is part of that civic virtue or civic duty... they are close, that make us a nation

So a kid is complaining, not older than nineteen, because he could be doing other things. I engaged the kid in conversation. I asked him, so what do you think you should do as a citizen?

Others can do this, complete waste of my time

Ok, so what are you willing to do as part of a nation you are part of? Not much is asked of you. (funny judge later in the day gave a very similar shpiel).

Well, I pay my taxes (at 19 I'm impressed), and truly this is a waste of my time and boring.

Here is your second case study.

This gentleman was in his seventies. He served during WW II on a Diesel boat, in the Pacific. He has trouble walking, and driving. Oh and gosh darn it, you should have seen how cold it was this morning (for San Diego that is), to the point that both his joins and mine, not as young as they used to be were creaking. We were almost in the same panel. We were both dismissed, one by the Prosecutor, me by the defense. He left with a smile, the satisfaction of having done his duty as a citizen.

Now, these are two people... this is hardly a scientific survey... just two anecdotes from the same day spent at Superior Court, twiddling thumbs, editing, talking with people... and yes, almost getting into a Jury. Yet, these two stories are a reflection of generational attitudes. Partly they have to do with life experience, but partly on how they were taught when young. My brother in Law's kids, they attended California High Schools... they NEVER had a civics course... and they have no clue what their rights or obligations are... not unlike the 19 year old I engaged in conversation today.

What national service would do... IF WELL HANDLED, and that depends on us not falling asleep at the switch as we often do as a society, is teach kids the value of participating in what Jefferson called the Public Square. You can teach this in civics courses, as well as history courses, but we are not doing either of this. In a sense, I fear we are facing a lost generation that will be grand for bad cops to arrest, since they will have no clue what their rights are. Oh and our founding fathers wrote about rights, but there are certain inherent duties in the Constitution as well. They are not spelled out in a bill of duties, but they are there.

To form a more perfect Union, security for all, mutual defense... those are duties, not rights... and they are spelled clearly in the preamble. The way the founders interpreted them were slightly different than we do today. For example, the Founders may have been shocked by the concept of national health care, but I suspect that those radicals (they were) would have shaken their heads in amazement and gone, that is a bloody good idea... common welfare covers that.


It would also teach them how their institutions function. They are the future. I mean, I don't intend to check out tomorrow, but they have far more at stake in the society's future than I do... and national service would help to foster once again a sense of community.

I will give you another example. As I wrote in another thread, I served as a medic for ten years with the Mexican Red Cross. You may say how noble... ok sure... but it was also a dept I felt I had to pay. My father went to Mexico after the Holocaust, his shirt on his back and the other clothes he wore were his only possessions. I served to pay that debt to a country that allowed my father to live, raise a family and build a business. I had that, not necessarily national pride, but sense of duty to the common good to give back. Oh and to this day, I talk to my partner who is still doing that.

I married a submariner, and I followed him as well. I have served this country as well out of a sense of duty to others and a moral obligation, since I have lived here all my adult life.

That said, this sense of moral responsibility and concern for the other is in many ways missing from our current life.

Oh and I could continue to ramble... but that is what national service COULD do.

[ArbustoBuster]

111. So the idea is to use national service to slap young people into shape?

I refuse to accept that. Liberty is more than just a word; it's a thing you do. And more importantly, it's something you are required to allow other people to do. Young people - and old people - are allowed to ignore politics, in the same way that I'm allowed to ignore religion. Saying that something is important for other people to do or to pay attention to is, at its base, what we're fighting against as Democrats.

At its core your idea is nothing more than another way of saying "young people aren't what they were in my day, so slap 'em into shape." That's horrible.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. If you missed and misinterpreted what I wrote

then at this point it is your problem.

It is not that kids are worst or better today than they were in the past

Fact is, they are not taught history

Fact is they are not taught civics

Any civil community needs its members to conform to a minimum of rules. These rules are both rights and duties...

By the way, where did I say participate in politics?

The public sphere is not only politics. If you study the founding fathers and what they meant by that you will quickly realize that. Just as private sphere does not only conform to religion or the household.

[tomp]

98. we do not need mandatory national service....

...so stop saying that.

We need to end u.s. imperialism. we need end aggressive wars, we need to destroy the military-industrial complex, we need to end corporate welfare. then we need to take all the tax money saved and spend it on hiring people to do the work that needs to be done.

as arrogant as it may sound to say, there is no other reasonable opinion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. If you say so

by the way why is it that programs like this work IN OTHER countries?

[bobbolink]

103. "so stop saying that"

Good move, from someone who doesn't want national service, because it would require him/her to follow the orders of someone else.

:crazy:

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. Thank you all

for a very adult discussion and for handling disagreements the way they should be handled. I thought I'd like to share that thank you from many who bothered to sent PMs to me and thanking me for this. I will not take the credit. You all deserve the credit of discussing this in a mature manner.

By the way, we cannot and will not reach solutions here... but we can start to see how complex different opinions are and where they come from... and perhaps when we start pestering our congress critters, we will have a better formulation of what we would like to see.

remember to act on your believes, and in that you participate in that public square

[HCE SuiGeneris]

114. Keeping it alive... discourse, awareness, participation

well done nadinbrzezinski. :toast: :dem:

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. Been a long two days

but worth it

;-)

thanks to everybody AGAIN, take a bow