Is the Zune a dud, or is this review?

[alfredo]

http://www.suntimes.com/technology/ihnatko/147048,CST-FIN-Andy23.article

Avoid the loony Zune

November 23, 2006
BY ANDY IHNATKO
Y es, Microsoft's new Zune digital music player is just plain dreadful. I've spent a week setting this thing up and using it, and the overall experience is about as pleasant as having an airbag deploy in your face.
"Avoid," is my general message. The Zune is a square wheel, a product that's so absurd and so obviously immune to success that it evokes something akin to a sense of pity.


The setup process stands among the very worst experiences I've ever had with digital music players. The installer app failed, and an hour into the ordeal, I found myself asking my office goldfish, "Has it really come to this? Am I really about to manually create and install a .dll file?"

Has MS gone outside it's area of expertise by trying to dabble in the more creative hardware products like their MP3 player Zune. MS has always been the left brain, greed is good, buttoned down type of company. It has worked well for them. Maybe they shouldn't be trying to play in a field they don't know or understand.

[ret5hd]

1. MS went out of their area of expertise...

when they went GUI.

[alfredo]

6. I always prefered to work in DOS as opposed to their

GUI. I'd rather not have a GUI than an ugly poorly designed one.

[ret5hd]

9. if you like dos, you'de love bash or bourne or cshell...

why use a crippled piece of software when you can freely use a real piece?

[alfredo]

17. I'm an unabashed fan of bash.

If I am working on Windows doing data entry, I'd rather do it in DOS. It just seems quicker. Less distractions than the applications I had to use at the PO. their PO box software sucked. Their change address software was DOS and it was great to work with.

[hyperium]

2. Of course, the way Microsoft does things

they'll throw money at it until people start buying it.

[mike_c]

3. I won't buy anything that panders to the music industry's restrictive...

...licensing demands the way the Zune does.

[Nomad559]

4. My guess

Is that a Apple fanboy wrote this "unbiased" article.

:sarcasm:

The Microsoft Zune Player

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Nomad666/Zune.htm

:)

[alfredo]

10. I'm on dialup give me a short description of the review.

[Renew Deal]

5. I know someone that has one and they agree

The Zune is a disaster and should be avoided. People don't realize why the iPod is #1 until they play with the rest of the devices. It's not just looks.

[alfredo]

7. Simplicity is the key.

The Sandisk Sansa e200 MP3 player looks pretty good.

[qanda]

11. That's what I got for my daughter for Christmas

Seemed like a good, cheap alternative to me.

[alfredo]

15. I need a big thumb drive that will also play music.

[Kelly Rupert]

24. Then do not buy a Zune, because the Zune can't be used as a thumb drive

It seriously cannot. That is a major missing feature.

[alfredo]

34. Too bad. I've been using thumb drives instead of a home network.

If I need to transfer something really big, I just carry my firewire external to the target computer.

[Kelly Rupert]

25. The Sansa is a great player.

Second only to the iPod nano, in my opinion--and probably a better deal for the money.

[Kelly Rupert]

27. User interface is everything.

Microsoft won't "win" until they realize that. Everyone comes out with two or three iPod-killers every year, each time adding superfluous features and pointless "improvements," while each time having a frustrating and inelegant interface, and each time they're left wondering what went wrong.

[Xithras]

77. I know 2 who have bought Zunes. Both returned them.

One had an old Gen2 iPod and wanted to upgrade it. He went with the Zune because it looked "cooler", and he liked the ability to set photos as backgrounds. He immediately ran into problems importing his existing MP3's, found that his entire existing iTunes collection (hundreds of dollars worth of music) was locked out of the player, and that it was a brick. He returned it after two days.

The other just returned his last night. I don't know what his exact complaints were, but he called it a "hard to use piece of $&*!". Apparently the user interface left a bit to be desired :)

I'm perfectly happy with my iPod video. It may not come in cool colors or have flashy photo backgrounds, but I can use it without even LOOKING at the screen, it weighs next to nothing, and it's hassle free.

Microsoft built a player that would make the music industry happy. Apple built a player that would make music listeners happy. The difference between the two is obvious.

[Armstead]

8. Sounds Awful

I like Mp3 Players that do what they say with as few "bells and whistles" -- and complicated restrictions -- as possible.

I have a Creative Zen Nano. A simple little audio device, but it is easy to load and use. And it allows me to record like a tape recorder from a line in plug. So if I want to record a show to listen in the car, or one of my old albums, it's easy.

[LeftCoast]

12. MS's primary problem is that their focus is to capture customers

Instead they should focus on satisfying their customers so they don't leave. That's my opinion anway. :)

[alfredo]

21. I agree.

Gerrymandering is the political version.

[Nomad559]

13. Why Is It

every time I read one of these "Unbiased" threads that criticize anything Microsoft, the reason Microsoft sucks Is because of some dimwit that was unable to Install or use the software, or knows someone that was unable to Install or use the software.

:shrug:

[alfredo]

14. My thinking is what happens to a person or a company that

goes outside their area of expertise. How would Oracle fare if it went into gaming?

MS has been able to break out of the software business with it's mouse and the Xbox. They seem to have problems with content delivery. Still MS seems to be best when it sticks to software.

[LeftCoast]

16. On the other hand, it's pretty lame when you have a PC with

a Microsoft OS and you buy a Microsoft player and the two don't work together seamlessly. I mean, why is it that I can plug MS products into my Mac's and they just work, but when I plug MS products into my PC's running MS's own bloody operating system they don't? Redmond, we have a problem!

[alfredo]

18. The corporate culture might have something to do with it.

[LeftCoast]

19. How so?

Not sure what you mean, unless it's that 'capture the customer' mindset I was talking about. :)

[alfredo]

20. I always believe that attitude flows downhill in an organization.

that attitude or the results of that attitude ends up being passed on to the customer. It shows in the product and service.

[Nomad559]

30. And again

we have someone blaming Microsoft for someone's Inability to use the software or hardware correctly. Do you suppose that maybe the problems these people are having are caused by other third-party software.

How do you explain the fact that millions of other Microsoft and Mac users around the world don't have the same Issues that others like you seem to have with your system.

:)

[jgraz]

33. So, hey -- go out and buy yourself a Zune

You'll be the only one on your block to have one! Ever.

The fact is that many, many more people have issues with Windoze. Support calls at my company run about 10:1, Win:Mac -- even though our Windoze product is much more mature. And of course, almost all of those Win calls are issues with the OS, not our software. On Mac, almost all the calls are about our product.

[Nomad559]

43. So you also blame

Microsoft for the Inability of your company to build a stable product for the Windows Operating System ... Just what Is your prodouct?

And yes, I am sure more Windows users have Issues with your product than Mac users, 10:1

What Is the market share of the Windows O/S verses the Mac O/S? ... 10:1 sounds about right.

:)

[Kelly Rupert]

45. So Microsoft makes great stuff,

and it's just the fault of everyone else that it doesn't work for them. Sure. Man, every company should do that.

"It's not Ford's fault that the Pinto explodes. It's the fault of drivers who allow it to crash. Plenty of drivers manage to drive each day without their car combusting."

"Really, you can't blame Fisher-Price for the injuries caused by its My First Chainsaw. If parents refuse to supervise their children while they fell trees, then the manufacturer can't be blamed."

"What do you mean, E.T. for Atari is a bad game? Customers just don't know how to have fun with it. Plenty of gamers have fun with it. Anyone who doesn't have fun with it shouldn't blame the manufacturer for their not having a good sense of fun."

[jgraz]

49. Our product?

It's a slideshow of Bill Gates photos for Micro$oft apologists to jack off to.

You might want to check it out.

[alfredo]

73. I think you misread his post.

He's saying that most of the calls for tech support for the Win version end up being a problem with the OS, not the product. He's stating the opposite is true with the less mature Mac version.

It has nothing to do with market share.

[LeftCoast]

36. I'll also add

I don't think MS is all evil, nor is Apple perfect. In some senses though, Apple has a big advantage over MS. Apple controls virtually everything about my Mac. It sets the standards for the hardware, writes the OS and much of the software. Microsoft depends on other people to manufacture the computers that will run it's OS. Same thing with a lot of the software. It's going to be inherently more difficult for MS to present the user with the integrated and mostly hiccup-proof experience that Apple does.

[alfredo]

75. You nailed it.

Still, if they make software for their OS, it should be compatible. It should work perfectly out of the box.

[Kelly Rupert]

39. And again,

we have a Microsoft apologist blaming users for Microsoft's awful user interfaces and inexcusable incompatabilities. The reviewer wasn't saying that he *couldn't* get the Zune to work. He could. He was perfectly capable of jumping through all the hoops. The problem wasn't that he didn't know how to, it was that he had to in the first place.

:eyes:

[Nomad559]

50. error

:(

[Kelly Rupert]

51. Um...WTF?

I edited my post to correct a spelling error and clear up some ambiguous grammar. As for the product issues, sir...you will find that post here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2804645&mesg_id=2805649

You know, where it always was. You know, posted by the guy who posted it. Who, you may note, I am not. All that stuff is still there, where it was. Before you start laughing at people, you might want to make sure you master the art of reading for comprehension.

:eyes:

[jgraz]

52. I'm guessing he was going to post more but Windoze crashed

Too bad he's not smart enough to use the OS.

[Nomad559]

53. Actually

It was that stupid Firefox browser on my Linux system that I am having Issues with.

:evilgrin:

[jgraz]

56. And again

we have someone blaming Firefox for someone's Inability to use the software correctly.

How do you explain the fact that millions of other Firefox and Linux users around the world don't have the same Issues that others like you seem to have with your system?

:evilgrin::evilgrin:

[Kelly Rupert]

26. If a user must be computer-literate to use a mass-market product,

it's a bad product for most people. It may have other advantages, but the burden is on the manufacturer to make a fail-proof product, not on the user to figure out how to fix the shoddy design. It doesn't make sense to say, "oh, Microsoft makes great products, it's just that everyone is too stupid to use them." If Microsoft makes products that are frustrating to most people, than Microsoft is a poor designer of software.

[alfredo]

29. A product should be so simple that you can pick it up and use it

without looking at the user manual.

[kiahzero]

54. Ironically enough, that's the MS argument why Linux is inferior. (n/t)

[Richard Steele]

78. Because you are BIASED, and unwilling to admit any fault in MS products?

[Atman]

22. I saw a demo of "electronic gadgets for Christmas" on Cabal News

The reviewer said the Zune had some "interesting" features, but that it "was not ready for prime time."

.

[Kelly Rupert]

23. The Zune is mediocre at best.

It isn't just its well-documented install problems. It looks and feels cheap. The fake-out click wheel interface adds to the aura of chintziness. The Zune software is an unneccessary second step--why not use WMP?--and the Microsoft Points are silly. The lack of podcast support is unforgivable, the inability to use it as an external hard drive is odd, and the wi-fi is useless.

The screen is marginally larger, and even though it is the exact same resolution with the same number of pixels, it does look slightly more attractive than Apple's iPod does. However, that is more than undone by the sheer unsexiness of the Zune casing, and the inelegance of the interface.

Now, it's not a terrible product. It's a mile ahead of the Creative Zen, for example. But it's still well behind the SanDisk Sansa, and even farther still behind Apple's iPod line.

[alfredo]

28. But at least they are trying. I have to hand that to them.

They need a design team like Apple, and undying faithfulness to simplicity.


I do believe in go with what you know, but there are times when you have to push the boundaries. MS has with the Zune. It may fail, but at least they are making an attempt.

[kysrsoze]

76. I won't switch from PC to Mac, but I'd take an iPod or Sansa any day over Zune

The 80gig iPod just plain rules the market and the new nanos are cool (but overpriced and lacking in storage capacity). MS makes overpriced, non-user-friendly crap. Windows is ridiculously expensive, especially considering how many security risks there are. The new XBOX360 is a step in the right direction, but they can have everything else.

I'd seriously consider a Sansa but a max of 8gigs plus memory card isn't too enticing, except for maybe using it to work out. I wish someone else would do a HD-based player that rivals the iPod. iRiver came close with the H320/340 but then seemed to disappear.

[Yukari Yakumo]

31. My advise: Wait for at least Version 3

Has anything 1.00 from MS ever been good?

[alfredo]

37. That's good advice for any product.

I will go with Leopard when it is released.

[Squeegee]

32. An embarrassing review of the Zune on CNN...

It's embarrassing because it starts out as a review of the Zune and becomes and advertisement for Apple's new iPod Shuffle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buKaqRG2SFA&mode=related&search=

[Kelly Rupert]

38. Since when is

comparing a recently-released product to its competitors embarrassing? That review is only embarrassing to the Zune design team.

[Squeegee]

57. I guess that was the point

I did not see the whole video, but I don't think this review was intended to be a comparison of the iPod vs. Zune though it definitely turned out that way.

[Kelly Rupert]

59. Well, it really wasn't a comparison of iPod vs. Zune.

They talk about the Zune for all but the last 30 seconds of the clip, at which point Soledad says something along the lines of, "well, why would anyone buy this when the iPod is the same thing but prettier?" She holds up her brand new Shuffle and says that she really thinks her new toy is much prettier than Microsoft's product, and everyone goes, yeah, the Zune is pretty clunky in comparison, and then it's over. It's not out of place, and there's no point-by-point comparison. Just my take on it.

[mondo joe]

72. They didn't need a point by point comparison.

The holistic comparison did just fine.

[Deja Q]

35. I'll stick with my PDA.

Does more than play MP3s.

[tinfoil tiaras]

40. Seems dumb because you cant use ipod music files on it

[Kelly Rupert]

41. And you can't use PlaysForSure music files on iTunes, and vice versa.

Everyone's got their own DRM standards. Apple certainly isn't going to license their FairPlay to Microsoft's Zune, and Microsoft didn't want to let its PlaysForSure partners in on it.

[jgraz]

42. Yes, but can you even play PlaysForSure on the Zune?

I don't think so. What a lame-ass product. I hope MicroSh*t takes a bath on this one.

[Kelly Rupert]

44. Nope. Which is kinda crazy.

I would be damn pissed if I had spent any money on a PlaysForSure music collection, after Microsoft more or less told me to go to hell with the Zune.

[ContraBass Black]

70. Can you use iPod files on anything?

[alfredo]

46. More on the Zune and changes in MS's corporate culture.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_49/b4012001.htm?chan=tc&chan=technology_technology+index+page_today's+top+stories

The Soul Of A New Microsoft
Edgy thinkers like J Allard are looking far beyond Windows for the next big thing

At 3:32 p.m. on Oct. 19 an e-mail flashed across the screens of the 230 Microsoft employees working slavishly to bring the Zune music player to market. The sender was their brash team leader, J Allard, 37. The message included a link to an old video of Steve Jobs on YouTube, mocking Microsoft's creativity. "The only problem with Microsoft is that they have no taste," the Apple Computer boss says. "They have absolutely no taste."


Allard was using one of the oldest motivational tricks in the book--his version of a football coach posting an opponent's quote on the locker room wall. "I for one...want to see this guy eat his words," Allard wrote. "Those are fighting words. He is speaking to every one of us and saying that we don't get it."

Zune hit store shelves on Nov. 14--a mere eight months after Allard's team got the go-ahead for the seemingly impossible task of toppling Apple's iPod music player. Contrast that with the five years and some 10,000 Microsoft Corp. workers it took to give birth to the latest version of the company's Windows operating system, Vista, which begins selling to corporate customers on Nov. 30 (and to consumers in January). From the start, Vista has seemed like an anachronism--packaged software in a Web 2.0 era where ever more applications are moving off the PC and onto the Internet, some springing forth in a matter of weeks. Microsoft Chief Executive Steven A. Ballmer vows that this time-consuming process of cranking out code, which created complexity and bogged down development, will never be repeated.

[Kelly Rupert]

47. After playing with that damn little clickpad

on a baby-shit-brown, flimsy-feeling Zune, I have to say that Steve Jobs probably has it right.

[alfredo]

55. It might be Johnathan Ives or his inspiration.

He is one of the reasons Apple leads in the design department.

They started out very simple with the iPod and slowly added features and refinement. They made it third party add on friendly. That took pressure off the design team, and made friends in in the third party hardware market.

Keep it simple and elegant.

[jgraz]

48. Best New Word: Zunetard

Beats the shit out of "early adopter".

[AZBlue]

58. It's big, it's ugly and it doesn't even come in fun colors.

And everyone knows available colors are the most important aspect to any electronics items.

[alfredo]

60. But avoid orange.

Still, is it a good first try by MS?

[Melynn]

61. Don't you have to buy Micro$oft dollars to buy songs for the Zune?

You just can't use a credit card to buy songs like you do with iTunes. You first have to buy some sort of Micro$oft dollars or Zune dollars or whatever the name is, in order to buy songs from M$. Seems like a extra hoop to jump through to just to buy songs.

Of course this is a trick. Let's say you buy 100 Zune dollars in order to buy 100 songs. A lot of people might not buy 100 songs right away, which means that Micro$oft puts the money in the bank until a person actually does purchase the songs. Only after a person buys a song does Micro$oft have to pay the artist and recording labels. Until then Micro$oft gets free money to bank. Multiply that across a few thousand users and your talking a lot of free money for M$. Pretty slick. I'll stick to be a faithful member of the iCult of Apple, thank you very much.

[Kelly Rupert]

64. It's even better than that.

You have to buy Microsoft Points, in blocks of 500 at minimum. A song costs 79 Microsoft Points, which is equivilent to 99 cents. So if you buy the minimum 500 points and then download as many songs as you can, you'll have 26 worthless points--and any fewer songs you download or more points you buy, the more money Microsoft just gets to hold on to.

[smalll]

62. Why isn't this a Lounge thread?

Or perhaps we have a Materialists Forum on the site somewhere?

[Kelly Rupert]

63. Must be pretty cool, typing on that immaterial computer.

[ContraBass Black]

69. Where can I get one of those?

[originalpckelly]

65. Microsoft STILL does not get it...

You don't have to buy a fucking iPod or Zune. No one will die without either, even though there are people whom may claim that.

You don't need it, you have to want it.

Does anyone really want a Zune? It looks like total crap. The part people like about the iPod is that it is sexy. It's really more image, because technically the Zune has a better sound chip in it, or that's what many reviewers have noted.

Of course there's the fact that the iPod has a clearer screen, because even though it uses the same pixels as the Zune, it's screen is smaller.

Instead of blowing the iPod out of the water, it's a "look Mom I can do it too" effort.

Sure, there are people who hate Apple, but they are the few.

[symbolman]

66. Check out this major sucky page on it

I'm a PC guy, my wife is a Mac person and I have a video Ipod.. tho the Ipod pisses me off on a regular basis I still like it, the style the use, mostly all of it, a cool thing..

Seeing this frantic Propaganda page on the Zune turns me right off, and it has so many fucked up features or lack of them (Old Napster files get TOSSED?) that I'd NEVER buy one..

Microsoft is going to take a bath on this one, sorry Mr Gates, but even PC owners are calling foul..

DUMB, a turd in sheep's clothing is still a turd, sad too, I would have liked to see some competition.

I really would LOVE to make a satire page of this link :)

http://www.zunescene.com/

[alfredo]

67. I did a traceroute and

found this:

elydm.06.am.barefruit.com

I googled that and got this hit:

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16771729

and this:

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16789081

Full traceroute:


traceroute: Warning: http://www.zunescene.com/ has multiple addresses; using 209.86.66.95
traceroute to http://www.zunescene.com/ (209.86.66.95), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 nas27.2in1.level3.net (209.247.21.163) 125.246 ms 117.419 ms 114.581 ms
2 ge-7-0-1.hsa1.cincinnati1.level3.net (63.212.220.2) 110.022 ms ge-7-0-2.hsa2.cincinnati1.level3.net (63.212.221.3) 117.043 ms ge-7-0-1.hsa1.cincinnati1.level3.net (63.212.220.2) 108.354 ms
3 so-5-0-0.mp1.cincinnati1.level3.net (4.68.124.241) 110.858 ms so-7-0-0.mp1.cincinnati1.level3.net (4.68.124.237) 110.201 ms so-5-0-0.mp1.cincinnati1.level3.net (4.68.124.241) 106.192 ms
4 ae-0-0.bbr1.chicago1.level3.net (64.159.1.33) 115.591 ms so-2-0-1.bbr2.chicago1.level3.net (64.159.0.162) 112.835 ms ae-0-0.bbr1.chicago1.level3.net (64.159.1.33) 115.916 ms
5 ae-21-56.car1.chicago1.level3.net (4.68.101.162) 121.847 ms 113.487 ms ae-11-53.car1.chicago1.level3.net (4.68.101.66) 113.654 ms
6 earthlink-i.car1.chicago1.level3.net (63.208.138.30) 115.154 ms 114.930 ms 119.678 ms
7 bor02-ge-1-1.il-chicago0.ne.earthlink.net (209.86.83.14) 120.445 ms 119.542 ms 113.863 ms
8 bor02-so-6-1.in-indianap0.ne.earthlink.net (209.86.82.41) 121.109 ms 115.721 ms 114.812 ms
9 bor01-ge-1-1.in-indianap0.ne.earthlink.net (209.86.83.41) 125.009 ms 127.419 ms 125.065 ms
10 bor01-so-6-1.ga-atlanta0.ne.earthlink.net (209.86.82.37) 129.717 ms 124.964 ms 125.528 ms
11 bor01-ge-1-0-0.ga-atlanta1.ne.earthlink.net (209.165.110.106) 130.606 ms 128.491 ms 129.249 ms
12 elydm.06.am.barefruit.com (209.86.66.95) 126.564 ms 129.938 ms 129.682 ms

[symbolman]

68. I beg forgiveness

my wife would know what this means, but she ain't up and I'm ignorant :)

What's it mean?

[alfredo]

71. It appears that there is some concern

over spyware from the address I show.

What the traceroute command does is trace the route between your computer and the address.

I wanted to see if there was any MS connection to the site. I also did an whois search with little success.

[MilesColtrane]

74. Just wait until Apple brings out the fullscreen touchpad iPod.

It will make the Zune look like one of those '80s mobile phones.