Question: Property Tax or Wheel Tax

[Jackson4Gore]

Hey guys, I have a quick survey for you. This year, I was elected to the County Commission here in Lawrence County, Tennessee. One of our main problems right off the bat was the fiscal mess the preceding County Executive and Commission left us. We are also being hurt by our jail situation and several other factors.

Therefore, we were forced to raise taxes to cover the huge costs. I along with several other commissioners wanted to institute an additional $35 wheel tax on top of the existing one which is $25. However, the commission decided to go ahead and pile the tax once again on the property owners. This time, the increase was 27 cents on the property tax.

Here in Lawrence County, only 37% of the people own property, so I feel that it is really unfair to burden them with all the tax load. In my opinion, the additional wheel tax would spread out the burden and allow everyone to make a sacrafice.

I wanted to get everyone's opinoin on what they think of this scenerio. I already have my decesion made of where I stand, I just want to hear some opinions on raising property taxes vs. raising the wheel tax.

Thanks! Chris

[sweetheart]

1. Residence sq. ft. tax

Rather, apply the tax in progressive scales to the number of square feet in a person's
residential lettings or ownings. The space tax would be universal and fairly pass
the burden to those who afford massive accomodation that wastes energy...

[FormerDittoHead]

16. I disagree. Property tax based upon assessed value... Against "wheel" tax...

I know of no city/town which taxes property solely by square feet. Please educate me.

Property taxes based upon its value is a tradition that goes back before the American Revolution.

They understood then what we understand now: that the services which are granted upon property are enjoyed not by their size, but upon their value.

While I agree that the stand-alone homes of the rich are *probably* larger than residences of the poor, I've seen condos go for much more than many small houses yet have a small fraction of square footage.

Furthermore, I would submit that in a given locality, there are "good" parts (ie: small houses go for hundreds of thousands) and "not so good" parts (small houses go for TENS of thousands).

And don't forget about amenities: my house, for example, lacks a driveway or garage. Its value is HALF of what the same house would have with a driveway. Yet a sq. foot tax would have me pay the same taxes as one with a house twice as valuable?

I would agree that a sq. ft. tax would be LESS regressive than a "head" tax, or a sales tax, but, going back to my million dollar condo example, I just don't see it being as fair as the property tax that has used successfully in our country for hundreds of years.

Lastly, the "wheel" tax is regressive. Do I really have to explain? If you wanted to go this way, I would agree with Arlington County's vehicle tax based upon book value, mirroring the property tax.

[sweetheart]

33. Ok, assessed value, * energy efficiency

Every property then needs be assessed from band A-J in energy efficiency rating,
and the property tax assessed on a progressive grid crossed with an energy grid,
that the tax fairly penalize gratutious energy waste in massive properties, and raise
revenues justly.

A square foot tax seems like an indoor version of a land tax, but i agree, your point
regarding condos and large urban poor-spaces, that it is not fair, and a value assessment
more progressive.

[valerief]

2. Who benefited from the fiscal mess you were left? nt

[Jackson4Gore]

4. ?

Not sure I follow you. No one benefited. It was pure incompetence. It hurt everyone.

[jaxx]

3. We had both for years.

Last year they phased out the wheel tax (this was a sticker, $10 per car....nothing to do with license plates $85) and put another penny tax on the gas. Go figure. Our sales tax is 8% locally, plus restaurant and hotel tax on top of that. The property taxes keep going up too because of education etc (which was supposed to be helped by the gambling in the state, I don't know where that money went).

Leave the property taxes alone. Too many on fixed incomes now, and it's just going to get worse. The gas tax and sales tax at least goes to the consumers, not just the unwary.

[Jackson4Gore]

5. Yes

We have both currently. The wheel tax was implemented about 20 years ago and was supposed to be only temporary, but it has remained ever since. It stands at $25 right now. We are proposing an additional $35 to the wheel tax to cover up for our shortfall.

We have already raised the property taxes 27 cents, but if we can get a wheel tax through, we can lower the property taxes back down.

To me, it is all about being fair to everyone. Only about 40% of the people own property. Everyone owns a car. Why punish those who only less than half when you can spread out the burden?

That is my way of thinking.

[pnb]

37. Its more fair than you think

People who don't own property are still paying property taxes. The only difference is that instead of writing a check to the locality, it is being added to their rent.

If you raise the property taxes, renters won't get a free pass...it will be passed along to them via a rent increase.

[Gormy Cuss]

6. If wheel tax is per vehicle and the .27 is tax per X in assessed value, then the latter

is probably less regressive. If the wheel tax is based on vehicle value then it may be no more regressive than the property tax increase. The fact that two thirds of residents don't own property suggests to me that you have a large lower income population, or a large percentage of families with children who may or may not be bitten harder by a flat increase in the vehicle tax.
Another consideration would be whether the property tax burden lands disproportionately on the residential owners as opposed to commercial owners. The latter group can usually absorb a modest tax increase rather well, whereas the former may have limited incomes.

As for fairness, keep in mind that an increase in the property tax may be reflected in increased rents or fees so non-owners don't escape the tax completely.

[Jackson4Gore]

9. Thanks for the input

Good insight.

[Lars39]

38. This one can be *very* important:

"Another consideration would be whether the property tax burden lands disproportionately on the residential owners as opposed to commercial owners."

Too many counties in TN have given companies outrageous tax breaks for outrageous amounts of time because they are desperate for the jobs. The jobs that usually result don't always pay a decent living wage or have any kind of decent benefits either.

[dysfunctional press]

7. what is a wheel tax?

i'm not familiar with the term.

[Jackson4Gore]

11. Basically,

A tax for owning a vehicle.

[elocs]

14. Don't feel bad because I never heard of it either, at least not here in Wisconsin. n/t

[NMDemDist2]

8. $60 a year to have a car? I dunno that seems steep to me

can't you just up the liquor tax or somthing instead? $0.02 a beer or whatever?

$0.27 doesn't seem too much of a property tax increase (I'm assuming that's per 1000?)

[Jackson4Gore]

10. Nope

Sin taxes are already maxed out. The problem is, in the past, the tax increases have all fell on the arms of the property owners. It just seems so redundant to keep piling it only about 40% of the people.

The wheel tax all together would be $60, but it would be spread out much more than the property tax.

What is everyone else's wheel tax?

[bobbolink]

18. "Spread out".... So, the single mother who cleans houses

and has to have a car to get from house to house to clean, must now pay that much more, and maybe either can't pay it, which means losing the car, which means losing the income. Or, she has to give up something her kid needs to pay that tax.

Sound fair now?

[NMDemDist2]

21. that was kinda my thinking, coming up with an unexpected $60 is a

budget buster for poor folks

[bobbolink]

22. THANKS! I'm so discouraged that muddleclass liberals can't seem

to quite think about poor folk anymore.

REally. I'm feeling hopeless.

It just doesn't seem to enter heads anymore.

No wonder I'm going down for the third time.

[NMDemDist2]

24. some have never *been* poor so it just doesn't sink in that there is

*NO* $$$, *NO* credit cards and dinner last night was Krustez pancakes and that's what's on tonight's menu too

hang in there Bobbo, I see how frustrated you get but we'll keep pluggin away at them, and in DU's defense, threads about the guy who needed the dishwasher BOX make it to the Greatest page often

[bobbolink]

27. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Back in my dirtyhippiecommiepinkobum days, none of us had been poor, then, either (and neither was Bobby Kennedy!!), but we had the ability to EMPATHIZE.

Those of us who weren't black, had never been black and wouldn't ever be, but we had the ability to EMPATHIZE.

Those of us who weren't Indian, had never been Indian and wouldn't ever be Indian, but we had the ability to go to Alcatraz and support those who *were* Indian, because we had the ability to EMPATHIZE.

Obviously, the list could go on, but I think that makes the point.

We have lost our collective soul.

[NMDemDist2]

29. i don't think it's a lack of empathy so much as plain lazy ignorance

it just doesn't occur to many folks how devasting another $35 a year tax can be to some people

:hug:

[bobbolink]

43. You're absolutely right.

Maybe in 50 years we'll be ready to deal with it.

[calimary]

50. Agreed. I'm with Post #6. A wheel tax will hurt those already hurting.

And I agree especially the part about commercial property owners. That's the business side. Seems to me that the business end of things has gotten MORE THAN ITS SHARE of breaks, overall, in the past several years. WAY more than its share. Which means it's time to make adjustments. Those who were allowed to cut in front of everybody and move to the head of the line should now be asked to move back a few spaces.

It might also be advantageous to look at what you might offer those you propose to tax again, as an incentive or a benefit or something to offset what they think you're about to take away from them. If business is taxed more, how 'bout giving them a tax break for every additional employee they hire? How 'bout giving them a tax break if they join a program to sponsor a needy family or a homeless person or if they provide a monthly stipend to a local shelter or food bank? Suggest to them that if they do that, they should then include it in their advertising or provide them special posters to put in the windows of their shops or offices that say "Proud sponsor of..." so they wind up looking good in the PR department? Furthermore, why not approach your local community college or some such, and promote a design contest for the students to come up with this poster? Or an award of some sort to give to businesses that are generous and responsive? These students would do it for free, just for the chance to have some of their artwork SEEN and USED and out there in the community. Why not hold a meeting with some local schools or teachers to get this going and to seed some excitement about it? Get a local radio station or TV station involved to cover it. Which means you then have a DOUBLE positive - the college AND you - can promote that as positive community outreach. EVERYBODY likes good PR. It NEVER hurts. It pays dividends on MANY fronts, and often means more money in the bank. EVERYBODY wins. EVERYBODY winds up looking good. EVERYBODY winds up feeling better and something positive and constructive actually might get accomplished.

Further, you might need some more community outreach to help teach people about WHY this is going on. People have this knee-jerk reaction against taxes, but NOBODY ever talks about what those taxes are for. What would they be willing to do without? Families have to budget. Ask any low income person - like the single mom bobbolink describes who's struggling to make ends meet. You think she doesn't understand what you can afford and what you have to do without this month, or every other month, or what-ever? Enlist the community to help you. I would do LOTS of informationals so people understand what the local government is thinking, what it's facing, and why it's asking for more of your money. DO NOT do this in the dark!!! Get the local media involved. Invite them to cover this, AND MAKE SURE THEY KNOW there are some refreshments there for the reporter or the cameraperson (sounds silly but it makes a difference).

There has to be some sort of exchange offered if people are going to be asked to cough up more.

It might also be worthwhile to investigate what services might be done, or be helped a little, by volunteers - say, at that same community college or trade school or even in the local high schools where the seniors all need more and more hours of community service as they apply for college. Is there clerical work the city can't afford to hire new staffers for - that could be done by a regularly scheduled bank of young volunteers (who then would get job training and experience)? I'd try to be as creative as I could in looking for ways to offset shortfalls and build community interest/enthusiasm/support.

And, pardon the pun, for God's sake, get the churches involved! THAT is a small army of volunteers, thinkers, and doers who remain largely untapped. It wouldn't hurt to see some of them put their money where their mouths are and REALLY do something to help their communities.

Sometimes, too, I wonder why some politician hasn't enlisted some sexy celebrity - by "sexy" I mean someone with a lot of heat, a lot of candlepower, a lot of draw, to do a fundraiser for the city. We do fundraisers for farmers. We do fundraisers for Katrina victims. We do fundraisers for public telvision. We do fundraisers for the homeless. What's wrong with doing a fundraiser for your city? Get your local radio station involved - they'll know who's coming to town for a concert or promotional tour or personal appearance or book signing or whatever. Put them to work on it.

If it were my problem to solve, that's how I'd go about it.

[pscot]

20. We had a vehicle license tax

which is essentially a "wheel tax". People hated it and it kept rising, until it eventually led to a tax revolt and a repeal initiative. There is some complaint about the gas tax, which is also quite high, but we haven't had any attempt to repeal it. It kind of flies under the radar. With a wheel tax, or license surcharge, folks have to write a check for it every year, so they notice it more. Name your poison.

[NMDemDist2]

25. we don't have wheel taxes in NM, AZ's and Cal's (my previous states)

were pretty steep

I'm still in favor of the property tax increase, landlords will pass it on the tenents anyway so it will get spread around

[Lars39]

26. Poor people do pay property taxes...it is factored into their rent.

[Nozebro]

30. That 40% of the people you keep talking about OWN most of the property

and that's why they should bear the brunt of the need for added revenue. You don't agree with RWingers that say rich people pay more taxes than anyone else, so they deserve a break...do you?

Why can't you enact a WEALTH tax, based on the wealth of each resident in the county? That would be fair and reasonable.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

40. In Arkansas we pay personal property taxes

on our vehicles. To me, this is fair, as the assessment is based upon the value of the car. My 1990 Geo Prizm is assessed at far less than my boss's brand new Toyota Tundra Extended cab. And you can't get new tags each year unless you can show you've had your assessment made and, after a certain time in the year, have paid said tax. If there was a set fee, or "wheel tax", I would find it unfair-my car cost $1300, while my boss's cost $45,000.

[Jackson4Gore]

42. Agreed

I like the value based system, rather than a set price. I think that is something we should look at here. However, I believe it is a long process in order to change the law.

[dysfunctional press]

13. steep? most people pay WAY more than that-

here in chicago, you need a "city sticker" -$75 and in illinois, the lisence plates cost $78- for a total of $153.00
however- when i say that most people pay way more than "$60 a year to have a car"- that's because they have car payments with finance/interest charges that easily exceed $60. while our car taxes(not including the tax on gasoline) are $153- we paid cash for our car, so we don't have monthly payments OR finance charges.

[Joanne98]

12. Why don't you just release the non-violent drug offenders...

Cut costs instead of increasing taxes...Call the faith-based bastards and ask them to help with half-way houses....

[NMDemDist2]

15. and court order them to AA and NA n/t

[Joanne98]

17. Yes.

[Lilith Velkor]

51. First Amendment be damned!

:rofl:

[elocs]

19. I've posed the brainstorming questions: Do-over, no taxes,

now how do we pay for everything? Who pays and how much? I have never had a reply, not here or anywhere. Evidently just a blank look.

[Nozebro]

35. Amen. Lock up corporate & other scam artists & leave personal conduct

OUT of the control of police hands. It's an immoral, unconstitutional abridgement of our Rights under the Constitution, creates crime, corrupts law enforcement, makes already-cynical citizens even more suspicious of government, undermines confidence in the POH POH LEECE, and besides all that, it's just a damn bad thing to arrest and imprison decent people for something they ate, smoked, snorted, or injected. Why the Hell should we not be free to be in control of what we put in our body?

"ALL The Cops Are Criminals" M. Jagger

[Lars39]

23. Wheel tax is regressive...hurts poor people more than anyone.

Poor people that rent do pay property tax...it's factored into their rents.

On edit: this is where I used to live:http://www.dicksoncountychamber.com/living/licenses.html#

It went up one year from $60 to $84. We had 2 vehicles and would be considered middle-class and it was hard to come up with $48 on short notice. :(

[bobbolink]

31. Thanks Lars39! I appreciate it--sometimes I feel so invisible!

:hi:

[porphyrian]

28. Split the difference between the two.

That way it can't be used against you as favoring one group over the other. Give it a review and option to change it after some reasonable amount of time, whatever that means, so you can change it if it turns out to be a bad decision. People won't fault you for making mistakes, they'll fault you for not fixing them.

[The Straight Story]

32. Cut the taxes on the richer people so they will have more to spend on the poor people

then tax the poor people more.

:sarcasm:

[Clark2008]

34. At least you guys didn't strong-arm your citizens like they did

over here in Knoxville - where they told us that, unless we wanted massive property-tax increases, we'd better accept the $60 wheel tax... or else.

Are you communicating to the public WHY you have to raise taxes, though? Can you explain that you just can't cut from somwhere?

:hi: Chris... I was devasted about Ford's loss. I posted fairly frequently on your blog toward the end - either anony from Knoxville or as Scoop

[Warpy]

36. Consider reducing your jail problem by passing a local ordinance

that would make non violent drug offenses misdemeanors punishable by fines.

[pitohui]

39. you've got to be kidding

if you're really this out of touch, please get out of public "service"

you didn't really say, the additional wheel tax would spread out the burden and allow everyone to make a sacrafice.


let me give you a hint, the people who do not own any damn property and who don't enjoy the small american dream of owning their own home, have already made a huge sacrifice -- the sacrifice of all the dreams you take for granted and they can never have

by all means, tax some bubba living in a trailer for the wheels on his 1971 pick-up rather than raising the property tax on the rich man's macmansion

i honestly hope your post was a satire or i have no hope for human nature

common sense, please

"to whom much has been given, much is expected" -- conversely, those who will never have anything and never own a home and just have to limp along with some POS old beater, give 'em a damn break, OK?

[Jackson4Gore]

41. Yep

A wheel tax does cover more people than a property tax, that is shown in every study. I just don't feel it is right to saddle a small amount of the people with a tax, when it can be spread out more evenly.

In essence, a fair tax.

[bobbolink]

47. Obviously your mind is made up for a regressive tax.

Why did you ask the question, then?

Thought you'd get lots of pats on the back?

Question: Did you run for office as a Dem?

[bobbolink]

46. THanks for saying upfront what I've been thinking and feeling.

Yes, this is how uninformed or just plain calloused many "libeals" are.

And, why many of us poor folk no longer have any hope or trust in Dems.

We're disposable, just like last week's trash.

Even our deaths don't matter.

I can't allow myself to care anymore.

[calimary]

60. Kick!

[Vinca]

44. Why not a 1% or less sales tax on nonfood items?

Or a small tax on rooms and meals? It seems property and vehicle owners are always first in line to fund whatever local government wants. Across the river from me, in Vermont, the property taxes are so high it's driving people out. Of course, here in New Hampshire we have what I call the "stealth tax." You can't look cross-eyed in this state without getting an expensive "permit." I've never figured out why the so-called "free staters" chose New Hampshire to set up shop. Just because we don't have a state income tax doesn't mean the government isn't getting its share. Sorry, I went OT on a rant, didn't I?

[bobbolink]

45. Now there's a GREAT idea!! More REGRESSIVE taxes!!

Why do you hate poor people???

[Vinca]

48. Okay, so we'll tax the real estate and their rent will go up.

Either way, the poor will be taxed along with the rest of us. That's life.

[bobbolink]

49. "That's life" No, that's death. And you wonder why many of us don't see

Dems as any different.

Your words echo "compassionate conservatism" to a T.

Buy a heart.

[Vinca]

56. Well, that's bitchy, especially since I consider myself pretty

darn close to poor. How can you disagree that landlords won't up the rent if they have to pay more taxes? One way or another everyone pays somehow. I'm not saying I like it, but that IS life. What's better? The rent going up $20 a month or bypassing a nonessential item that happens to have a tax on it? You buy a heart. And, FYI, I don't appreciate being compared to a "compassionate conservative." Asshole.

[Gormy Cuss]

54. Sales tax, bad idea; room and meal tax is a good suggestion.

Sales tax burdens fall disproportionately on lower income people.The simple explanation is that they have few purchases that are discretionary. Room and meal taxes on the other hand are taxes on discretionary purchases and often hit visitors disproportionately -- generally considered a good thing by the locals. In your state tourism is a big deal and such taxes are a relatively painless way to raise revenue.

NH does have the art of taxation without calling it "taxing" down to a science, LOL. We all must pay for the infrastructure of our society -- the only questions are how and how much.

[williesgirl]

52. Don't increase taxes on housing just because someone owns the house. I might have to

give up my home due to the fact the assessment just went up 92% in one year. This is crazy - no homes are selling here - they're using inflated asking prices, not sales prices. I just requested a hearing to fight it.

I'm on disability and my house is all I have.

Not every homeowner is rich nor could afford to buy their house back at today's prices.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

53. I'll be blunt: property taxes are evil. Wealth should be taxed when it's acquired

and nowhere else.

Isn't there any way of putting this burden into an income tax or sales tax on nonnecessary items?

[Norquist Nemesis]

55. I guess the first question I'd be asking is what are you taxing for?

What are the top three priorities...specific infrastructure, jails, etc.? Then, see if there is any way possible to go from there with those priorities as the starting point.

Without having more information as to what the problem is with the financials, it's tough to answer which might be a better solution given an option of 'wheel tax' or property tax. One is basically a flat tax (which is regressive) and not applicable to everyone; the other is more progressive but can vary up or down based on the assessed values and the market. :shrug:

It sounds like you certainly have your work cut out for you.

[calimary]

58. Absolutely. Especially since we're stuck in the midst of a HUGE

crisis in Iraq along the same lines - WHAT are we getting for all our tax money (besides a whole lotta NOTHING)? We need answers in a calamity like that, and we need answers in connection with local spending problems, also. Answers large and small. DUer gratuitous said it really well regarding the Abu Ghraib disgrace and the further, presumably worse, torture photos that have yet to be released to the public - (paraphrasing) "I want to see what I got for my money. I paid for that with my taxes. Let me see what I got for my money." Perhaps if the locals see what THEY are getting for their money, it will be considered a reasonable justification for the spending. If I can't really argue about where the money's going (like fixing the potholes, picking up the trash, paying the police), then I may not like being taxed a little more for it, but at least I won't feel cheated, or feel a need to complain or balk at it.

[RB TexLa]

57. How do you think the 37% that own property are being unfairly treated?

Because they write a check with the Parish's name on it to pay for the tax? Property taxes are paid by everyone, when one pays rent, buys products from a store that pays rent to a landlord that pays property tax, when one gets less overtime or doesn't get a pay raise from their company that pays property tax.

[calimary]

59. Kicking this.

Just because.