Those paying attention to the facts have had 'the proof' since well before ...

[understandinglife]

... March, 2003.

And, then, there's a little book by John Conyers entitled THE CONSTITUTION IN CRISIS.

And, now, little tidbits like the Melbourne Minutes.

Proof.

Investigate.

knock yourself out ... those paying attention since well before March, 2003; those informed of Article 6 of the Nuremberg Charter; those informed of what the US Constitution has to say about violating treaties; ... mostly anyone whose either not brain-dead or sniffing sand through their deeply buried nostrils ALREADY KNOW THAT BUSH, CHENEY, and ALL their neoconster minions and corporate fat-cat enablers ARE criminals awaiting indictments and prosecutions.

OK?

Clear enough all ye of the 'wait and investigate' crowd; all ye of the 'wait and see' crowd; all ye of the frigging clueless to the reality that Americans are being slaughtered in Iraq while folk, all comfy cozy back home debate whether were ready to admit that we've been gullible, we've been willing to swallow the swill of lies and deception, willing to WAIT for investigations.

Every second someone in America is willing to WAIT FOR INVESTIGATIONS is another second in which some dear, dedicated American gets to have their head shredded by a sniper's bullet or be vaporized by an IED.

Wait.

IF YOU ARE AN ADVOCATE FOR WAITING FOR INVESTIGATION - PACK YOUR BAGS, FLY TO IRAQ, TAKE THE GUN FROM A TROOP, AND STAND IN THEIR PLACE, AND SEND THEM HOME TO THEIR FAMILY AND FRIENDS.

Wait.

OK.

PUT YOUR BUTT WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS OH YE BRAVE AWAITERS.

[mike_c]

1. K&R for the TRUTH....

:applause:

[leftofthedial]

2. not investigating and impeaching immediately

is being an accomplice to the death of democracy

this same gang of criminals has been stealing, lying and committing treason since Nixon. It is LONG past time to bring justice to bear. If not now, when?

[Sherman A1]

3. Agreed

We have something called a process here and it requires investigation before any action. The process itself is the important part because it is what protects us all.

[elocs]

25. When? How about when there are investigations that gather actual evidence.

The Watergate hearings and investigation are what brought Nixon to the point of being impeached. A good DA would probably investigate first and gather evidence before indicting, but then a good DA might not indict at all when there is no chance of conviction. So those 16 Republican senators needed to vote with the Dems will suddenly become super patriots after they have been trashed and called every vile name in the book here and elsewhere for years? Probably deserved, but imagine how they might feel about it. It's not a sure bet that all the Democratic senators would vote for conviction (Can anyone say: Lieberman, Lieberman?) Once Bush is impeached and then not convicted, doesn't that kind of take the wind out of the sails of the Democrats? What then? Re-impeach him? And then when that does not work, re-re-impeach him?

[EFerrari]

30. You mean those Republicans that are running as far away from Bush

as fast as they can -- those Republicans?

Sixteen? I wonder how many would be willing to swear on a stack of their unread Bibles that they're never met the man. 20? 40?

lol

[leftofthedial]

31. you must have missed the subject of my post

in which I clearly said "investigate and impeach"

:shrug:

as things stand, the "official" Democratic party line in Congress is to not even investigate the administration and the war profiteers (at least not directly).

[elehhhhna]

46. The investigations can't commence until the new COngress has been sworn in.

There IS an order to these things.

[EFerrari]

4. Who could possibly witness 9/11, Iraq AND Katrina

and not know to a certainty that this felon is guilty as hell.

[understandinglife]

5. Correct. And, the only action that is lawful and ethical is to indict and prosecute ...

... him and every one of his neoconster fellow criminals and corporate and media enablers - every one of them.

Thank you, my friend,
Bob

[fooj]

6. Enablers...

Hold them ALL accountable. I don't know what in the hell we are waiting for. Little Lord Pissypants and his group of treasonous traitors have broken the law. Over and over and over again. Enough of this bullshit. I say...GAME ON.

[understandinglife]

15. "Enough of this bullshit. I say...GAME ON." Ditto, my friend.

:thumbsup:

Thank you "fooj,"
Bob

[Melynn]

7. Time to saddle up and get going with legal proceedings

Each day the heinous crimes are being committed. The faster it is stopped by impeachment the better.

[understandinglife]

16. Each day the heinous crimes are being committed. The faster it is stopped by impeachment the better.

Oh, so, very, true.

Thank you!
Bob

[puebloknot]

8. And if our Congresspersons...

...want to wait, whether they have a D or an R after their names, we have to wonder what skeletons in their own closets might be adding to their hesitancy.

An increase in the minimun wage is not to be used as hush money. Minimum wage workers need constitutional protection more than anyone else. It's not an either/or proposition.

The Democrats will have subpoena power as soon as they are seated in January. Let the process begin *without delay*!

[bvar22]

9. I love a good lynch mob!

String 'em UP!!! They MUST be guilty of something!

We don't need no stinkin investigations!
Fuck the rule of LAW!

[elocs]

21. Picky, Picky, Picky!

Since the "proof" is already there, why don't we have the impeachment vote the first day the Dems take power in the House and then we can have a vote a week later in the Senate and get the whole thing over with. Oh, I forgot, we are not in Kansas anymore (well, some of us probably are in Kansas). Then there are those who are channeling the Founding Fathers and in their nobility they support truth, justice, the American way, and Impeachment. Conviction would be nice, but math is not their strong point.

[EFerrari]

22. How many investigations are enough, in your opinion?

How many investigations have there been into 9/11, for example? Into the Iraq debacle? Into the Katrina response?

Have you been out of the country for the last six years? :shrug:

[bvar22]

52. "How many investigations have there been into 9/11..."

None. Zero. Nada.

There has not been a single credible, non-partisan "investigation" into bush/cheney involvement in 9-11, Katrina, or the run up to the Iraq War. There has been only ONE superficial whitewash on 9-11, and ONE superficial whitewash into the atrocities at Abu-Gaharib.

Before the mob gathers, we NEED REAL investigations by a REAL independent prosecutor. An investigation that gathers evidence (PROOF) of specific LAWS which were broken, a compilation of testimony under oath, an appearance before the Grand Jury of those implicated in the breaking of specific laws, and indictments by a Grand Jury.

Then, AND ONLY THEN, can impeachment hearings begin with REAL evidence and testimony of high crimes and misdemeanors. If this is done properly and within the LAW, the American PEOPLE will demand impeachment.

The absolute WORST thing to do is to demand impeachment BEFORE a watertight LEGAl CASE IS COMPILED.

[puebloknot]

29. That must be some prime stuff you're smokin'!

"Stinkin' investigations" are an essential part of "stinkin'" indictments, whether impeachment by the House or in the courts.

A whole bunch of those stinkin' investigations have already been done, and what they've produced smells to high heaven!

[sendero]

10. Regardless of what your idea of justice is..

... if we go off half-cocked we'll be handing control of the government back to the Repugs. It's going to be hard enough to keep what we have.

I'm sorry that everyone in America doesn't see what you see so clearly, but believe me, they don't. Forget the right 30% idiot-contingent, you'll never have them. The solid Dems will come around pretyy easily. Then there is the middle. If you think Joe Average Independent agrees with you, you are delusional.

Just saying "do the right thing" is easy. When doing the "right thing" causes more long term damage than taking the time to bring the nation around to your way of thinking, well that is just instant-gratification disguised as moral certitude.

[KSU Wildcat]

11. ITA.....nt

[Nikki Stone1]

14. You're right on here, sendero

I support you wholeheartedly

[understandinglife]

18. Regrettably, I. Disagree. Read "The Constitution In Crisis." Nothing "half cocked" ...

... about the abundant reality that every American Citizen has been deceived.

Nothing "half cocked" about all the vaporized and maimed, needlessly, American soldiers.

Nothing "half cocked" about all the vapid excuses about killing tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens.

Nothing ....

Sorry. What's "half cocked" and lame is anyone trying to provide any form of cover for the crimes against humanity and the crimes against the Constitution, and the crimes against civilization that ALL OF US have witnessed in the past six years.

OK.

[sendero]

20. You act as though..

... the points you enumerate would be agreed upon by a majority of the nation. YOU COULD NOT BE MORE WRONG.

The job of the Democratic Party in Washington now is to find out what the truth is and then convince the country that justice must be done. Folks who unilaterally implement their agenda (Republicans, the Bush administration in particular would be a good example) get unceremoniously tossed to the curb.

It's not that I don't agree with you pretty much on the facts, but you're preaching to the choir here. We have to get 67% of Americans to AGREE, then we can act with history and the hearts and minds on the people on our sides, rather than having 2007-2008 be a footnote to a long Republican reign of terror.

[understandinglife]

34. "We" happen to have way more than 67 % of our fellow citizens who 'get it.'

Issue is, getting the folk whom we employee to do their job. Starting on 3 Jan 2007, "We the People ..." are going to be informing our employees of exactly what they should be doing, every, day.

So, I reject your assumptions, your logic, and your distractions.

Hope that is clear.

To the future,
Bob


BE AMERICA. ---

[sendero]

44. You are simply delusional..

... the Dems won a thread of a majority in the senate, most races won by a margin of 2% or less, and you think America is thinking like you are.

You are simply clueless.

[grizmaster]

47. the truth is known, we need to inform the public

and once Americans know, there is no way anybody with one ounce of humanity wouldn't want to see the bush junta pay fpr their war crimes.

[Minnesota_Lib]

19. Thanks for being a voice of reason, Sendero.

:toast:

Like I said in another thread on the same subject, we want to win the White House in '08, not lose it in '07.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

23. And even more to the point... If we lose '08

we are definitely "screwn". You might as well pack your bags or oil up your guns.

[puebloknot]

24. Going off "half-cocked"... (with a nod to Martin Luther King)

...would seem to indicate that there's nothing but wish fulfillment involved in calling for impeachment.

You can hardly get out of bed without being hit with *evidence* of the Bush administration's crimes. Of course, the legal process must be followed to officially document those crimes, but it does not have to take very long if there is the will to hold them accountable!

Martin Luther King might still be alive if he had taken the time to bring the nation around to his way of thinking. And his people would still be faced with the outrage of slavery and its aftermath. True, his movement was a process which took time, but he had to begin! JFK and RFK took action against civil rights abuses in the South in the '60s most definitely without the blessings of the citizens in the South.

If Joe Average Independent doesn't care about justice, let him suffer the consequences. We who are awake and aware know that while we bring the nation around, thousands more will die in Iraq. Holding Bushco responsible for their crimes *is* a matter of law, and perhaps Joe Q. Citizen will benefit from the civics lesson involved therein!

To borrow from that organization which is today working for justice: "The World Can't Wait!" Time is of the essence.

[sendero]

28. If we don't convince..

... Joe Average American that crimes worthy of punishments have been committed, then who are we to talk of justice?

The Law is what the courts, the Attorney General and in many respects, the people (remember juries) say it is.

Getting on your high horse and proclaiming that you are judge, jury and executioner makes you right there with the Republicans.

ALL I'M SAYING HERE is that your opinion, my opinion, the opinion of the OP means JACK SHIT and what has to happen is the same as for any crime, you first convince the legal authorities that a crime has been committed and request that they act. Since the legal authority in this county is one of the criminals, you have a problem from the get-go.

A case has to be made IN THE MEDIA that CANNOT BE OVERLOOKED by the country or by the powers that be. If you think Americans are going to come around to the idea that they are all war criminals (remember, there was overwhelming support for this stench of a war in 2003), then your understanding of human beings is so flawed as to be useless. This whole thing is going to be a seriously hard sell and running up and down the Senate floor crying this shit now is political suicide, certainly not useful towards ever achieving our ultimate goal - justice. Politics sucks, but without it we have NOTHING.

[puebloknot]

32. "Politics sucks, but without it we have NOTHING."

Oh, really? So why are Republican operatives now in jail? Because of the rule of law, not politics.

Neither the OP nor I are suggesting that anything should be done just because of *our* opinions. We keep trying to point you back to the fact that laws have demonstrably been broken (a federal judge has said so), and with that in mind, we don't have to defer to the preferences of those who support this administration.

It is *continuing* political suicide to fail to stand up for *doing the right thing.* I think we'd be amazed if someone actually had the spine to do it!

Failing that, we have a dictatorship. We have that now. The question is whether we will dismantle it, or "win" in 2008 by simply merging with it!

[sendero]

33. Sometimes..

... I just don't know.

If you don't understand MY point, that the American public DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOU, and that selling them on the idea that our great and illustrious country is little better than Hitler's Germany is going to be a delicate proposition, then I don't know what to say.

The fact that some judge has made some statement is worth a BUCKET OF WARM SPIT. When are you deludinoids going to grow up and face reality - your objective "right" is not shared by even a slim majority of the coutnry and until it is you are pissing up a rope.

[understandinglife]

37. "You can hardly get out of bed without being hit with *evidence* of the Bush administration's ...

... crimes."

Exactly, Judy.

And, as you so aptly note:

To borrow from that organization which is today working for justice: "The World Can't Wait!" Time is of the essence.

Indeed.

Every moment that passes that renders endangered even one of our troops ...

Every moment that passes that has America directly responsible for some Iraqi child being vaporized ...

Every moment that passes that allows Bush and his neoconster minions and Carlyle group enablers to gather more cash for their illegal behavior ...

Every moment ... IS A CRIME ... that anyone allowing it to happen is as much as guilty as the perps performing the act.

WE must make it stop. Those whom WE employee and pay to be OUR government must be made to realize, every moment, that WE will hold them accountable for not doing their job.

Today. Tomorrow. Next Week. A Year From Now.

Thank you,
Bob

[EFerrari]

26. Instant gratification was no longer "instant" on September 12. n/t

[AntiFascist]

41. Polls indicate....

that a majority of Americans already believe that if Bush mislead us into war then he should be impeached. How much clearer can this be? If this, and much of the other corruption, is brought into the spotlight then it can only be bad for the Bush administration enablers and good for the Democrats. Do not underestimate the American people, even in the midterm election there were paleocon Republicans supporting Democrats. There is a lot of support out there waiting to be discovered in fighting this corruption.

[sendero]

45. Now we've gone ..

... from war crimes to impeachment. Which is it?

And who decides whether or not we were "misled". Those with 2 functioning brain cells already know we were misled, how do you convince the electorate? An electorate who gave us the slimmest of majorities in the senate does not think the way the OP clearly thinks.

Perception is reality. The perception of what happened has to be realigned to be similar to the truth. Until that is done any other actions toward accountability are futile and doomed to backfire.

[AntiFascist]

54. Unfortunately perception is all in this case...

but perception is being guided more and more by internet forums and blogs, the media is turning around (at least on Iraq), and we have the support of paleocons.

[stellanoir]

12. K&R'd

Though I do feel that this is a trepidatious time until the new Congress is signed in, I agree.

The copious amount of evidence is well established and is all there for sure. It's just these antiquated time frames and procedures that have everyone so-o-o frustrated.

Carry on dear.

Chin up.

[understandinglife]

17. "The copious amount of evidence is well established and is all there for sure."

Thank you, dear Stella,
Bob


Peace.

[porphyrian]

13. Ha! I'll kick the shit out of that. - n/t

[earth mom]

27. K & R! And as Fooj said "Enough of this Bullsh*t-GAME ON!

:kick:

[understandinglife]

35. ""Enough of this Bullsh*t-GAME ON!" Yes, "fooj" nailed that one, perfectly.

Thank you - :toast:
Bob


BE AMERICA. ---

[savemefromdumbya]

36. don't they all have sealed indictments from Fitzgerald?

[file83]

38. Don't worry, it's coming...

as soon as the Dems are officially in control (January) - then the axe will drop hard and fast.

[understandinglife]

39. "... then the axe will drop hard and fast."

Agree.

:thumbsup:

:toast: to you!
Bob

[OneBlueSky]

40. I've been against impeachment for practical reasons . . .

but you make a good case . . . I HAVE been following things since well before March, 2003, and I KNOW that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/et.al are criminals of the worst kind . . . guilty of war crimes, crimes against humanity, mass murder, and massive ecological destruction . . .

I'm also beginning to think that practical considerations may have no place in this discussion . . . gimme a little more time to think on it . . .

[DemReadingDU]

42. morning kick

[maine_raptor]

43. The problem with your "statement" is found in the first 3 words of the post.

"Those paying attention"

Not enough people have been. Oh, I know here at DU we have, but not those outside of DU.

Impeachment (and Removal) is first and foremost a Political Act. The Founder's were quite clear in that (Read Federalist #65 some time). Without a complete airing of the crimes committed, Impeachment (and Removal) of Bush will be seen as revenge for Clinton's Impeachment.

That is the reality of the situation.

One other point; I resent your saying that just because I want a full and complete investigation so as to educate my Fellow Americans, I am somehow enabling the War to continue. I am NOT the Commander-in-Chief of the US. Some other guy has that job. He's the one that can order the troops to come home, not me. I, as an American Citizen, have to rely on my elected Representatives to force that man to comply with my wishes.

That is the compact that we have agreed to live by; it's called the Constitution.

[Gregorian]

48. This isn't a discussion. It's a KNIFEFIGHT.

As usual, this thought came to me in the middle of the night.

They killed Kennedy. They killed his brother. They killed Martin King jr. The list of violent crimes goes on and on. And then their are constitutional crimes. And financial crimes.

When in a discussion, talk. When in a knife fight, one doesn't wait to see what happens next, as their opponent is getting up.

I honestly don't think we have fight in us. But that's what needs to happen. Pelosi has it. It's time to bring it on.

[SeanQ]

49. Yes, investigations should begin as soon as the new

session starts! Waxman et al should already be holding talks with the FBI and such. I think the main focus needs to be 'protecting our democracy'. Voter fraud and corruption. If I were Pelosi or Waxman, my instructions would be to investigate everything, with the goal of putting the bastards behind bars, but never to mention impeachment.

First, through the course of investigations, the bloated, corrupt underbelly of our government should be exposed and sanitized. This should be done in full view of the public and in slow, painful detail, such as to complete expose the self-serving hypocrisy of the GOP's 'values based agenda' and discredit the neocons completely. More is at stake here than just ushering Bush out of office ASAP. We have the opportunity and responsibility to break the back of the far rights political power. I know Bush, Cheney and crew are criminals, and, if investigations are vigorously pursued I expect they will end up in jail, and perhaps impeached if a strong enough case, based on hard evidence, can be put together before the next election.

I am more than happy to not hear the word impeachment, as long as I see regular evidence that investigations are moving foward.

[Martin Eden]

50. Do you want Bush/Cheney impeached?

If so, then you must assess whether that goal will more likely be achieved by starting impeachment immediately after the Dem majority takes office, or by conducting investigations first.

I think any chance to successfully impeach these bastards will require conducting investigations first because there is not yet sufficient public support for impeachment and we need 67 votes in the Senate.

[Jack Rabbit]

51. The facts need to be on record

Otherwise, there's no evidence of an impeachable offense.

So there will be investigations.

I know what they're going to find and you know what they're going to find. But it still needs to happen.

A lynch mob is never justice, even when the hanged man is guilty.

[MasonJar]

53. They should have to sit behind bars indefinitely before being

charged. And how about a little Room 101? Maybe GWB could be put on the back of a bucking bronco inside his cell. Cheney is so evil that no self-respecting horse would be caught dead in his cell, so maybe a little nude dog leash adventure for him, ending with a lot of waterboarding before attachment to electric wires. Then a mere 100 years in Guantanimo (sp) for each death in Iraq, American and Iraqi.