The Most Vile Talking Point: "It's time for Iraqis to stand up on their own"

[ConsAreLiars]

Every time I hear "Democratic" Party representatives repeat this phrase, I loathe them even more for their complicity in the brutal invasion and occupation of Iraq and/or their unwillingness to tell the truth about what has been done to the people of Iraq and The US (and the planet).

Oh, I get the Rovian "brilliance" of the phrasing. It implies that the US invaded in order to give a "helping hand" and that has been now done. And it covers the asses of the Imperialist backers of the PNAC agenda, so the Dems won't risk get trashed by Big Money. And it appeals to the most xenophobic elements of The Masses who regard all foreigners as less than human, as well as those who just want to stop US participation in the butchery. So it sells well.

Yes, it's long past time to get out of a war that was started for the most evil of reasons, but this blaming of the Iraqis for having had their society destroyed disgusts me.

There is the Big Lie, and then there are the little lies that give credence to the Big Lie. Will they ever have the decency to tell the truth, or will they just keep "playing the game" and pretending that the massacre of Iraqis was just "good intentions gone bad."

(edit out doubled punctuation mark)

[Erika]

1. That's why I am a Kucinich and Obama fan.

They had the guts to be against the Iraqi invasion.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QuestionAll...]

42. of all the players in the field, Kucinich is now the one I trust.

as far as I can trust.
but it's been so abused.

[savemefromdumbya]

50. and

at least he has a workable plan for Iraq

[savemefromdumbya]

49. The US had no right to invade Iraq. period.

When it all boils down to it the US has no right to plunder another country.

Having said this, this is what the British, Spanish used to do in the old days. However, these days, there is no excuse.

[mopinko]

21. obama was not elected when the war started.

barely running for the senate.

[Radical Activist]

22. He was running for the Senate in the primary

and he opposed the war from the start, while his opponents did not.

[Erika]

24. But he came out against it

as the wrong war, in the wrong place, in the wrong time.

[mopinko]

51. when he comes out against it as

a crime against humanity, let me know. i will send a check to his 08 committee then.

[The Count]

55. Obama? Wasn't even a senator in 2003, then said we don't need to investigate

how we got into this war...Isn't his past being white-washed a bit too much? I think it's an insult to Kuchinich to put the MSM "it" boy in the same boat as him. Kuchinich had the guts to build a war opposition in the House when the IWR was voted on. I am still waiting to be enlightened as to what gutsy position did Obama take? I mean, by now, even Edwards who "would have invaded Iraq if POTUS" figured out that this is no longer politically viable and said he was wrong.

[MercutioATC]

2. I undrstand your position, but do you agree with the statement?

Is it time for Iraq to manage their own country?

[fujiyama]

6. How the fuck can anyone manage a country

in complete chaos?

Whose fault was the chaos to begin with? Until the US takes responsibility for any of its actions, other people are going to suffer.

This is more imperialist arrogance. We cause the problem, then blame them for not being grateful?

Actually more so than arrogance, I should just say it's a meaningless statement altogether.

[MercutioATC]

9. It takes us about 12 weeks to train a kid to go to a foreign country and fight.

Iraq's had over three years to assemble a security force.

Can we at least agree that either the "Iraqi government" or the Iraqi people seem to be dragging their feet a bit?

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

19. A lot more blood will spill

And it won't be "dragging feet". Just look at what we have given them, more hated for their own people.

[boolean]

31. BULL FUCKING SHIT

These people didn't ask for this. They were bombed to smithereens against their will. They have no food. They have no water. They have no electricity. They have no jobs. They have no future. Every single day they live in fear. Every single day they have to wonder whether or not they will die. Nobody is funding them. All the money is going to Halliburton. American troops are murdering them, torturing them, and raping them.

I'm sick of this fucking RW talking point.

[puebloknot]

48. Agreed. This has all the intelligence...

...and morality of Marie Antoinette's "Let them eat cake" (whether she actually said it or not).

Why don't they just pick themselves up by the bootstraps, American style? You can't go through bootcamp when you wake up to a new horror every day -- assuming they are able to get any sleep at all.

We need a U.N. peacekeeping force in there, America out, and a task force to rebuild that area.

[uppityperson]

37. No.What "Iraqi government", what "Iraqi people" are you talking about?

what whencrabsroar and boolean said. And, there is more. I do not think you can compare "train a kid to go to a foreign country and fight" with Iraq's assembling a security force. They have had their country bombed, infrastructure destroyed, any sort of security structuring destroyed. Iraqi security are hated and killed by their own countrymen/women/people. Training a kid here in the USA happens under remarkably different situation than trying to recruit and train people in Iraq.

What "Iraqi government", what "Iraqi people" are you talking about?

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

38. Amen to that.

That was my point to republickins in 2003.

[followthemoney]

53. Anarchy is what a misliked democracy is called - from Leviathan, by Hobbes.

The democracy of Iraq is unified in its desire for the withdrawal of the tyrant.

For those who haven't noticed, the Iraqis ARE standing up but in opposition to the occupation. Bush wants Iraqi collaborators to stand up to and kill other Iraqis in support of the occupation. That didn't work in Vietnam and it won't work in Iraq.

[AliceWonderland]

57. "The Iraqi people seem to be dragging their feet a bit"

I hope you never have to endure a war. My god.

[Erika]

11. I will bring up again there is no such thing as an Iraqi

I heard Peter Galbraith, Ambassador who helped the "Iraqis" draft their Constitution bring up today that Iraq has already split into three regions, the Kurds, the Shia, and the Sunni.

They have no national loyalty. It doesn't exist.

Galbraith also came out and said there is no hope for Iraq. He was a W appointee.

[Schema Thing]

34. Kurds, Shia, and Sunni are ethnic groups, not "regions"

The Kurds of course, have a sort of established land base, but the other two groups do not.

[ConsAreLiars]

36. People who advocate that sort of division need to understand

that that sort of cartoon reality is maybe 60% accurate. Like trying to divide the US in Hispanic, Black, Asian and Caucasian regions, Or Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jewish, Atheist, and other. There will be areas where one or another has a preponderance, but only that. It is essentially a call for genocide and ethnic cleansing.

[Schema Thing]

40. Exactly. I wish more of us cared about OPG

other people's genocide.

[ConsAreLiars]

18. It is ALWAYS time for the people to manage their own affairs.

Especially the people of the US. And the people, here and there, always face obstacles. Getting the US military out of Iraq and letting the US puppets fall is necessary if the Iraqi people will have any chance for self-determination. And stopping the cover-up of Corporate Imperialism here is necessary for us to become free.

They, the Iraqis, will face the same kind of tyranny that followed US attempts to shape the future of Iran and Afghanistan. That was an easily foreseen outcome before the war was started, except for the "might makes right" Straussians. And turning Iraq from a secular military dictatorship into a repressive armed theocracy was equally predictable. It is a step backwards, for Iraqis, but for them, it will also be a respite from the endless slide into unending horror that the US invasion initiated.

And we, here in the US, will face continued destruction of what we once regarded of "the American Dream" so long as our political leadership continues to provide cover for Big Brother.

[karlrschneider]

32. It is probably the only option but if you shoot a hornet's nest, you

shouldn't complain when they get excited. Chimpco has (and should have known) about as much chance of pacifying the nation THEY broke as they would calming a swarm of pissed-off bees.

[RaleighNCDUer]

43. Way past time, and they know it, which is why they have asked

us to leave.

We knock them down, kick them in the head repeatedly, break their legs then wonder why they don't stand up?

Yes, there will be chaos when we leave. And the longer we stay, the worse the chaos will be. If we had packed up the day we caught Saddam they'd have a fully functioning country today. The reason they keep attacking the government forces is because WE created the government forces. If we left, they'd create their own, and live with it.

[freeplessinseattle]

44. You put it perfectly. wish you'd been on MTP this am!

"We knock them down, kick them in the head repeatedly, break their legs then wonder why they don't stand up?"

[CrispyQ]

3. Excellent point.

Would make a good LTTE. :thumbsup:

[savemefromdumbya]

4. Listen to what the Iraqis say.........

The Iraqis say to the US "get the F out of our country" They are mad (understatement).

It would appear that the US and other countries treat Iraqis like dogs - "sit" "stand up"

[karlrschneider]

33. More like "roll over" and "play dead". Except the dead part isn't playing.

:grr:

[Subdivisions]

5. Yeah, I cringe every time I hear it too because it was

not the Iraqis who caused this quagmire and, just like the parents of a wayward child who has violated someone else's rights or property, it is the resposibility of the United States to make things right or admit defeat and ask for help.

History will be OUR judge and it won't be pretty.

[Mr_Spock]

7. The Iraqi's will probably not get things right until after the US leaves though

The other way of looking at this is to realize that the Iraqis have little incentive to take hold of the reigns until we leave. We do have to set a departure date so the Iraqis will snap the fuck out of it. Bush is exactly wrong when he states that setting a departure date will embolden the terrorists, it will also embolden those that want their country to finally settle this mess once and for all.

[NMMNG]

8. Weren't they standing up on their own

before we went in and started f*cking with them?

[Erika]

13. Yes, they were but even then Saddam controlled

less than 70% of the country.

Peter Galbraith says the new "Iraqi government" controls only a few men in the secured Baghdad area.

What have we done?

[freethought]

12. "Stand up on their own" is the new talking point!?

Well! That's makes alot of sense! Stand up on your own and risk getting shot, kidnapped and tortured, beheaded, blown up, burned alive, and who knows what! Golly, that makes all the sense in the world considering the current state of affairs in Iraq!
:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Erika]

15. Democrats would do well to get rid of that slogan

We (W) destabilized their country and the ME.

[SeattleGirl]

14. I absolutely HATE this talking point!

WE invaded THEIR country. WE bombed the crap out of THEM. WE have not restored power, water, etc. And now WE are telling the IRAQI'S that they have to "stand up"??????? Saddam is a vile piece of crap, but in my opinion, Bush is too. This country made Iraq even worse than it was under Saddam; we went there uninvited for a pack of lies, and that talking point makes it seem that it is somehow THEIR responsibility to clean up OUR mess!

I do want us out of there; I want our military personnel to come back home. So do the Iraqi's. And a plan needs to be put in place ASAP, but again, this talking point seems to point the blame -- no, scratch that; it DOES point the blame -- at the Iraqi people for the fact that we are still there. The Democrats need to stop repeating this fucking bullshit!

[Erika]

17. Amen, sister.

People are again slowly waking up. It appears some of the democrats are suffering from the battered wife syndrome and haven't yet got the guts or self esteem to call it like it is.

[SeattleGirl]

29. Battered wife syndrome is exactly right, Erika.

I have said for a long time, as have others, that the Bush Administration is like an abusive husband. They use fear, threats, etc., to keep us in "our place" (well some of us, anyway. Not me.) And thank God, people ARE waking up, finally. Finding the strength they need to leave this abusive relationship (and they took a big step on November 7th).

[JCMach1]

16. Vietnamization... the past is future again...

[Disturbed]

20. natomy of a Civil War -- Iraq’s descent into chaos

Anatomy of a Civil War -- Iraq’s descent into chaos

Nir Rosen

(excerpt)

After the 2003 invasion, the country’s majority Shia, radicalized by three decades of persecution and poverty under Saddam and suspicious of the American occupiers, responded quickly to the clerics’ incitements. Followers of Muqtada al Sadr capitalized on his father’s network of mosques and clerics to seize control of Shia Baghdad and much of the southern part of Iraq. They occupied hospitals, Baath Party headquarters, and government warehouses and gave themselves state power. The same pattern repeated itself in much of Iraq.

When Baghdad fell, on April 9, 2003, and widespread violence erupted, the primary victims were Iraq’s Sunnis. For Shias, this was justice. “It is the beginning of the separation,” one Shia cleric told me with a smile in the spring of 2003. Saddam had used Sunni Islam to legitimize his power, building one large Sunni mosque in each Shia city in the south; these mosques were seized by Shias immediately after the regime collapsed. During the 1990s Saddam also used the donations that Shia pilgrims make to the shrines they visit—totaling millions of dollars a month—to finance his Faith Campaign, which spread Sunni practices in Iraq and even declared official tolerance of Wahhabis for the first time, perhaps because of their deep hatred of Shias. Wahhabism is an austere form of Sunni Islam, dominant in Saudi Arabia, that rejects all other interpretations and views Shias as apostates. Wahhabis had traveled up from Arabia in centuries past and sacked Shia shrines. Now Shias were terrified of a Wahhabi threat. They feared that Wahhabis would poison the food distributed to pilgrims. According to a cleric in Najaf, Sheikh Heidar al Mimar, “There were no Sunnis in Najaf before the 1991 intifada, but Saddam brought Wahhabis to the Shia provinces in order to control the Shia. These Wahhabis were very bad with us, and all Shia were afraid of them.” Again and again I heard Iraq’s Shias refer to all Sunnis as Wahhabis.

The Shia wave that swept Iraq in the wake of the American attack overthrew the Sunni-led order imposed on Iraq for centuries—by the Ottomans and by the British. The uprising was guided largely by Shia leaders who under Saddam had been pushed underground or into exile and whose sectarian identity had been strengthened as a result.

On April 7 Ayatollah Sayyid Kadhim al Haeri, a cleric from Karbala who had been in exile in Iran since 1973, sent a letter to Najaf appointing Muqtada as his deputy and representative in Iraq. Haeri also urged Iraqis to kill all Baathists to prevent them from taking over again. On April 18, in the southern city of Kut, Abdel Aziz al Hakim, brother of the Shia opposition leader Muhammad Bakr al Hakim and leader of the 10,000-strong Iran-supported Badr Brigade militia, proclaimed that Iraq’s majority Shia hoped for an Islamic government. That same day, Muqtada’s deputy for Baghdad warned that Shias would not accept a democracy that would obstruct their sovereignty.

(end excerpt)

(Originally published in the November/December 2006 issue of Boston Review)

http://www.bostonreview.net/BR31.6/rosen.html

[mopinko]

23. makes me puke too.

i think ied's are attepes at standing up. but do we accept that? no

[ConsAreLiars]

30. Indeed, they have been standing against the invaders for quite some time, against all odds.

Wish the "leading Dems" had the same courage to stand up against Corporate Amerika.

(edit because typing is a PITA)

[BlooInBloo]

25. It bears some resemblance to the UCLA tazer-happy Sgt. Kick-Brown-Skins'-Ass....

.... when he tazed the kid a 2nd time for not being able to get up after being tazed the 1st time.

ZZZZZZTTTTT!!! Get UP! It's time for you to stand up on your own!!! Not gonna get up, eh smart guy? ZZZZZZZTTTTTT!!!!!


(The 1st taze represents the initial destruction of their country by the U.S., in case it wasn't clear.)

[ConsAreLiars]

27. I was reminded of the same event.

Or some Mafioso breaking the kneecaps of their victim and then demanding that the stand up and dance.

[Radical Activist]

26. Those attacking US troops probably see themselves as standing up on their own.

[Erika]

28. Yep.

Peter Galbraith's interview was very telling.

He simply said there was no hope for a democracy in Iraq.

[aquart]

35. They're standing up, shooting at each other, ducking down.

Yeah. It's delusional and condescending as hell. Iraqis are only "standing up" when they do it our way. Well, they're doing it their way: traditional, ugly, bloody.

Invading Iraq was the worst idea of this century so far.

[ConsAreLiars]

39. To redirect a bit. My disgust is with the cover-up of the crime that is implicit

in that talking point. What utterly revolts me is the implicit acceptance of the "good intentions" behind the invasion, and the suggestion that the Iraqi people a slackers or incompetents that is the reason for the chaos and bloodshed the PNACers and their Corporate masters set in motion. This is collaboration with the enemy -- the common enemy of the people of Iraq and the US.

And unless they are willing to break with Corporatism, they remain its servants. And they continue to deceive. And they show themselves to be enemies of "the people" here and there. That is what I find so repulsive in this talking point.

[Tom Joad]

41. Every time a US humvee is blown off the road, the Iraqis are standing up

for their rights.

The Iraqis are doing a damn good job of standing up for their security, by resisting this illegal occupation.

Yes, the Dems who repeat this condesending shit, and those who wish for "benchmarks for success" and other such insanity... i only wish they were riding in the humvees instead of young men in the military.

They would quickly learn that the best idea is to cut and run from this illegal war.

[uppityperson]

45. Lawmakers Criticize Training And Deployment of Iraqi Forces

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/26/AR2006112600980.html

Report Casts Doubt on Ability to Replace U.S. Troops

Two senior members of the House Armed Services Committee and several former Defense Department officials yesterday criticized poor U.S. training and deployment of the Iraqi army and police as a major reason the Baghdad government cannot provide security to its people.

Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-Calif.), chairman of the panel, said that 33 trained Iraqi army battalions, now serving in provinces that are relatively peaceful, should be moved into Baghdad or other areas where there is fighting. "Saddle those guys up, move them into the fight," Hunter said on NBC's "Meet the Press." He added, "Nothing trains a combat unit better than actually being in military operations."

Rep. Ike Skelton (D-Mo.), who next year will take over as chairman of the Armed Services Committee, focused on the Army training of Iraqi units. He said that in many instances "the wrong types" of trainers were given the job. "I would hope we could stand up their brigades, their battalions, and that they would be effective, and the way to do this is for us to train them better, to have advisers that understand them," Skelton said on NBC.

"What's really fallen down . . . has been the police," said retired Gen. Wayne A. Downing, who headed the Army's Special Operations Command and briefly served after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the Bush White House handling counterterrorism....(more@link)

[ConsAreLiars]

46. How pathetic.

The Dem and the Puke and the General blame the Iraqis for their failure to be loyal to the US and serve imperialism well? Well fucking Duh! Foreign invaders are distressed that the subjugated nationals are not really effective at serving their new masters? How stupid must they be to spout such garbage? And how evil?

[Karenina]

61. It's a time-honored white supremacist model

Subjugate a people, destroy their psychic and physical infrastructues, brutalize them, divide them, then step back and throw your hands in the air, blaming them for the whole mess...

[Why Syzygy]

47. A combat unit?

Aren't they supposed to be peace keepers? In some cases the men that have been trained have turned on the 'allies'.

Have you heard of one instance where ANY Ira*i is pleased to serve in the occupation of their own country? Again, I say, leave them alone and bring them home.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

52. i am glad someone else felt this way...i heard this on sunday

i thnk the translations is "americans are tired of hearing that americans are dying. let the iraqi soldiers die instead. this will make americans not care about the war anymore".

fucking bastards.

[mzmolly]

54. In order to leave Iraq (which the people of Iraq want) we do have to

be cautious in how we phrase things. I agree, thought that it's a sickening statement, but I understand "why" we're saying it.

[ConsAreLiars]

58. I also understand why "they" (not "we") are saying that.

But putting the blame on Iraqis is not only sickening, it is a form of complicity. Honest Democrats could frankly say that the war was unjust from the beginning, that the PNAC plan for world domination was deluded and irrational and the cause of great suffering, and that getting the troops out is the first step toward undoing the great damage they have done. Some do say that, but they aren't heard on the Corporate Media.

Instead, some of the leading politicians in the Party are covering up the truth. I don't believe that lying to "the masses" is honest, "good politics," or effective in defeating the neo-fascist right.

[mzmolly]

59. I honestly think most people understand what your saying already.

Except those that will never understand.

[ConsAreLiars]

60. Thanks.

I hope so. Those who repeat that "blame the Iraqis" are probably (I hope) convincing nobody but their corporate masters.

[mzmolly]

62. They're giving the pseudo men who started this war a seemingly macho

way out. "The Iraqi's need to stand up." :puke:

It's absurd as you said, and I'm glad you raised the point.

[ConsAreLiars]

56. Nir Rosen was of Democracy Now! today. Here is how he puts it.

"There's been a shift lately since the Americans realized that Iraq is a failure, of blaming the Iraqi’s. The Iraqi’s need to step up, the Iraqi’s have to choose democracy, the Iraqi’s have to choose freedom. It is very popular for us to blame the Iraqi’s for the chaos that we’ve brought upon them. And, I think this {here Nir is commenting on Chimpy's current trip to the ME} will perhaps be something for the cameras in the US’s intent by Bush to show that he’s going to make Maliki, you know, seize the reigns of his country, or something absurd like that, because Maliki has no power of his own. The Iraqis actually did chose democracy, we just never gave them that democracy that they were demanding."

People should really read the transcript carefully, or listen to or watch the whole interview. Whenever you hear some pundit or politician or General talking about Iraq and "them," compare that simple-minded crap they are spouting to this analysis of how things really work in Iraq.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/27/1447216

A longer article by Nir Rosen is at http://www.bostonreview.net/BR31.6/rosen.html . Don't be intimidated by the length. It is very readable, a combination of travelogue with easily understood explanations of the ideologies and goals of the major forces, and how/why things have devolved.

(edit to replace brackets)