Is Seinfeld (the show) racist?

[oberliner]

Syndicated columnist Leonard Pitts Jr. in an editorial about Michael Richards and racism writes:

"After all, modern bigotry usually isn't some nitwit screaming the N-word. It is jobs you don't get and loans you don't get and apartments you don't get and health care you don't get and justice you don't get, for reasons you get all too clearly, even though no one ever quite speaks them. Or needs to. It is smiles in your face and knives in your back.

And it is, yes, a sitcom — like "Seinfeld" — that presents New York City, of all places, as a black-free zone."

First, does Seinfeld present New York City as a "black-free zone"?

And is it fair to characterize that program an example of the kind of modern bigotry to which Pitts is referencing?

Here is a link to the editorial:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2003448050_pitts26.html

[951-Riverside]

1. God damn it! When will you people get it?

Racism does not exist against the blacks, its all paranoia. :sarcasm: :eyes:

[Bill McBlueState]

5. so is Seinfeld (the show) racist?

I think one could harbor zero doubt that racism exists and still be surprised by the claim that Seinfeld's show was racist.

[Mike Daniels]

107. Might as well call Friends, Cheers and Frasier racist as well

I sure don't recall blacks or any minorities (outside of a token girlfriend ) represented in any great numbers on any of those programs.

[WindRavenX]

2. Oy, I was afraid of this

I absolutely cannot see how it is possible to claim Seinfeld the show is racist based on last week's incident.

[lvx35]

3. its not racist.

and the show itself examines racism thoughtfully. (remember the one where george gets mistaken as the White supremacist leader! haha)

people just want something to latch onto to deal with a problem much larger and more complex than anyone you can point your finger at.

[WindRavenX]

6. oh, I agree

A lot of people, though, are going to jump on this and see (incorrectly)Seinfeld as a racist show.

[Raine]

94. and also the one where Elaine thought she was

dating a guy of mixed race and he thought the same about her. Also there were episodes about Native American and Chinese stereotypes.
It's a shame that a show that confronted those issues is now associated with a racist like Richards and character of Kramer is forever tainted.

[lvx35]

95. The thing is I don't think Seinfeld's work has to be tainted by Richards.

they are separate people...and really, Richards should be dealing with African Americans of character to address his internal issues and create healing for all involved. If we get too involved in condemning Richards, we miss the potential for healing and overcoming racism though understanding.

[Goblinmonger]

115. Don't forget "Look to the cookie"

Yeah, Seinfeld is so damn racist.

[roseBudd]

167. But there certainly should have been more blacks on the street, in the diner,...

virtually anywhere the characters went in order for it to be representative. How hard is it to use minorites as extras?

The only speaking parts I recall are CoCo and some black guy George pretended to be buds with, and 1 black guy that worked for the Yankees.

And Seinfeld should have spent a lot more time taking the subway IMHO.

[radwriter0555]

8. Quick; name all the black characters to appear in Seinfeld in 8 years

on television!

Name all the black characters on Friends!

[WindRavenX]

11. What's your point?

If you're implying that because Michael Richards was on the show means the show is racist, that's a pretty weak argument.

Now, if we're claiming Seinfeld (and Friends) is a symptom of the racist culture in America, that's a whole 'nother worm.

[radwriter0555]

32. My point is that hollywood as a whole is very racist. The writers have to make

a concerted effort to blend people of color into their writing; they always have... it's getting marginally better, thanks to shows like Scrubs, but past sitcoms have a huge void of color on their shows that no one ever talked about. Everyone always felt since teevee had the safe and sanitary Huxtable family, that blacks were adequately represented on the teevee entertainment in a box.

But look at shows like Cheers and Moonlighting; nary a shadow there; I don't recall any people of color at all in Seinfeld or Friends.

It's Hollywood. It's controlled by whites and run by whites and it has been for a long time. It's coming around, but it's a slow, painful process to get writers and producers up out of their bad habits of the great color divide.

I wonder why it is that Fox has the most programming involving people of color?

[oberliner]

15. The Johny Cochrane guy and the lady who won't take muffin stumps

There was also that family who George watches Breakfast at Tiffany's with.

And doesn't George get some random African-American guy to pretend to be his friend in order to show that he has black friends?

Oh, and the store security guard who doesn't have a chair to sit in.

As for Friends, didn't Ross have an African-American girlfriend at one point?

[mattclearing]

45. Yeah, having a character that acts like Johnny Cochran proves it's not racist.

:eyes:

[oberliner]

47. Was just responding to the request to name characters

Made no comment as to whether or not that proves anything about the show being racist

[zreosumgame]

157. So, having a character that acts like Johnny Cochran means it IS 'racist'?

you seem to object when the conditions of the question put forward was met, but the only way you can express it is by going after one charater and make a nonsense remark?

[TheFarseer]

103. I think George's boss with the Yankees was black

or some guy there anyway.

[hexola]

143. Yep one of the Yankee executives...he looked like Sugar Ray Leonard...(nt)

[Leftisalwaysright]

16. On...

Friends there was Chandler's boss for a while and then the girl who hosted Talk Soup in the last season I think.

Seinfeld only had Jackie Childs I think. Oh, there was the guy at the diner who didn't care for George.

That's two on each show I can think of.

[Tunkamerica]

18. quick! name ANY character on the Hughly's

name a white character on Living Single! or Martin! or...or...or... oh wait this is ludicrous.

[mainegreen]

111. Yup.

[phylny]

79. Well, there was Charlie Wheeler, Ross' and Joey's love interest n/t

[TheFarseer]

101. Ross dated a black paleontologist nt/t

[WinkyDink]

102. Well, so what? It had its own milieu, and that was that. Gee, are there any Blacks

in a Henry James novel?

Sheesh.

[jeffrey_X]

139. Oh me, me, me!!! I've got one!!!

Remember the lazy black body guard who fell asleep because George got him a rocking chair???

[Taxloss]

154. The owner of the coffee shop in Seinfeld is black.

George's boss at one stage is black.

[k_jerome]

162. the guy spraying the sidewalk!!! nt.

[zreosumgame]

133. sonme 'people' just love to be outraged

they don't really care what they are outraged about, they just love to feel superior to someone else. Pretty sad

[Blackthorn]

4. Seinfeld had many Latino characters.

Black Tokenism is just as bad. The only black guy in South Park is called "Token". It is completely ridiculous to conclude that because Seinfeld had no black characters, that it is inherently racist.

[CrazyForKucinich]

22. It had plenty of Black people

The Lawyer
The guy who parks cars
The family George visits for their movie when he didn't read the book(haha)

It had native americans, it had asians, it had pakistanis and even NAZIS!!!! I mean come on...the show had every race and many of them in prominent positions.

[mattclearing]

43. Of the twelve or so regular characters, none are black.

That doesn't match the population ratios of New York or the United States.

[tritsofme]

46. But does it match the population ratio

of a close-knit group of 30-something middle class white friends who happen to live in NYC?

That's what the show was about.

[mattclearing]

54. I don't think so.

Honestly, I think those people would have at least one black friend or co-worker who has an impact on their life sufficient to be a regular on their show. At least one. Possibly more.

[Mike Daniels]

110. Why? I live in DC and 99% of my social circle is white

Not by any grand design but that's the way it happened to turn out based on the activities I participate and shared interests I have with people I've met.

I have numerous co-workers who are various races but I don't hang out with them outside of work. It's safe to say that none of them have had any real influence or impact on my life.

Why should Seinfeld or any show that revolves around a small group of people be expected to include minorities in that group?

[Captain Hilts]

108. Our friendships and areas are self-selecting. So, they don't reflect larger demographics...

necessarily.

[JacksonWest]

109. Right.

It's odd that a show about Jewish thirty somethings didn't have more African American characters featured as main characters. Besides, there were only four main characters: george, jerry, kramer, and Elaine. Everyone else was a guest star. Newman appeared in about thirty episodes during the nine year run. George had a fiance for a season. And Elaine dated Puddy.

Whether it's good or bad, most people tend to associate and hang out with people that share their physical traits-especially race. It becomes more pronounced as you get older. I don't think Seinfeld is racist-or unrealistic-any more then Girlfriends or Everybody Hates Chris. Or Living SIngle, or A Different World.

If you want tv to do some social engineering, and depict diversity where it doesn't really exist, I understand the post. However, I don't think Seinfeld is unrealistic in depicting a group of four core friends, all of whom are white. It does happen. Diversity for diversity's sake is a waste of time. There are plenty of shows, past and present, that featured diverse casts.

If you want to find racism on television, look at shows like Lost. So far, the only two black charcters have been cold blooded murderers-and both are off the island now.

[Orangepeel]

169. I think only Jerry was Jewish, btw

:shrug:

[AZBlue]

171. Twelve regular characters on Seinfeld? Which Seinfeld were you watching?

There were four regular characters. And, more than half the time they were in Jerry's apartment, not out in the city.

[QuestionAll...]

7. the Seinfeld show always bugged me

never was close, but caught it here and there.
bunch of pampers crying about nothing important. Vaccuous, me me ultra. I wouldn't want any of those characters in my life. couldnt relate at all.

[aquart]

13. Yes, dear. It was about an insular group of (white) people.

It was Moliere-style comedy: the protagonists never learn and never grow.

For god's sake, George killed his fiancee with cheap envelope glue!

[QuestionAll...]

23. he did? lol. kinda fits in

...the lil fat bastard w/o a personality - I suppose there were chuckles and laughs about the dead one.

[wtmusic]

21. A narrow step up from Roseanne, from what I could tell

Life's tooo friggin' short to want to listen to anyone whine.

[QuestionAll...]

34. Roseanne wasn't a whiner.

she put some under the rug real shit out there for many.
oh please don't compare Sienfeld and Roseanne to me...

seinfeld was a snotty little nothing looking after his balls and where they may slide against.
roseanne Spoke of many real cultural issues. and a better comedian too.

[wtmusic]

42. Well there you go

To each his/her own. I couldn't stand either of them.

[QuestionAll...]

48. heh..

*huggles*

[wtmusic]

51. Is it racist to have a show with ALL white people

or just kind of unrealistic and stupid?

[QuestionAll...]

57. you just gave me a brain cramp, thanks a lot.

but to your question.
erm, no,
but when those white showed people talk shit about (overtly or covertly) them others... and it's done so many subtle ways, almost undetectable most of the time. The message is there, sent by big (usually) white men.
subtle, or so subtle. or direct in your face rock pie. doesn't really matter. we take it.

[frankenforpres]

129. ha! i like both

roseanne really captured the recession feel, and i really identified with it.

seinfeld is a classic show. not a great social critique like all in the family, but exceptional comedy writing

[Marie26]

128. Roseanne was

a whole lot better than Seinfeld. At least the characters in that show had real things to worry about, instead of when they'll get seated at a Chinese restaurant or whatever.

[mondo joe]

141. Is "having real things to worry about" the standard for comedy now?

I enjoyed both shows.

They're both comedies.

[Marie26]

166. Shrug

It's my standard. Not everyone has to like the same thing. Personally, I didn't like any of the characters on Seinfeld - watching selfish neurotic whiners just didn't appeal.

[political_outcast]

9. the liberal agenda should concentrate on racism, not economics

forget about progressive taxation and universal healthcare, and all the things that the europeans have.

A crusade against racism is what is needed. yes, it may take decades to win, or it may never be winnable, and yes, it will probably only further divide and polarize the electorate, and yes, a liberal platform centered around progressive taxation and universal healthecare would unite instead of divide, but a never-ending war against racism must go on and on and on, forever if necessary, cuz doing good aint got no end.....

[wtmusic]

17. Wait...lemme guess...you're a WASP male?

I'm psychic that way...

[political_outcast]

19. female, black and native american

I am a female, feminist, black and native american. I am an artist whose work has been commended as being strongly vaginal.

[wtmusic]

24. Cool. You're the one female feminist black native american

who doesn't think racism needs to be addressed.

Is being vaginal commendable? :shrug:

[political_outcast]

25. yes, commendable, although the word makes some men uncomfortable

vagina

[Bucky]

35. Good God, lady, quit saying the V word!

You're making me nervous.

[The Straight Story]

50. We need a vagina smilie :) (nt)

[QuestionAll...]

53. yes it does, odd.. but pussy is quite fine. go figure that one.

guess it's one syllable oneupmanship to penis. Or maybe it's that foreign language sound to it?

They gotta win at everything. ;)

[Little Wing]

156. Ahh, quoting The Big Lebowski are we?

Surely you didn't think you'd get away with that here did you?

[political_outcast]

165. yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man

my comments really tie this thread together....

[Mythsaje]

27. Welcome to DU, outcast

:hi:

[political_outcast]

30. thank you n/t

[LoZoccolo]

33. The word itself makes some men uncomfortable. "Vagina."

Yes, they don't like hearing it and find it difficult to say. Whereas without batting an eye a man will refer to his "dick" or his "rod" or his "Johnson."

http://www.reel.com/reel.asp?node=movienews/confidential/archive/20000223/page2

[political_outcast]

36. quite so!

more education is needed in this area, which is what I am saying. We need to priortize. Yes, tens of thousands of americans die every year from lack of healthcare, and the rich keep getting richer. But until every last trace of racism and sexism is scrubbed from every white male mind, we should not focus on these things like universal healthcare and progressive taxation.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

49. "Strongly Vaginal?"

What the does that mean, Georgia O'Keefe?

[political_outcast]

105. the vaginal quality of my work is hard to put in words

I use experimental techniques

[davidinalameda]

136. I was at an art show about 3 years ago

and was amazed that an artist used her own menstrual fluid as a medium

[ecstatic]

120. welcome to DU, political_outcast!!

I'll be looking out for your posts!

[Quantess]

26. I liked it better when

"the liberal agenda" focused on eating babies and forcing senior citizens to worship satan.

[political_outcast]

29. I am not familiar with that agenda??

??

[Quantess]

31. .....

:rofl:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

52. "Liberal agenda?" Is that like the "homosexual agenda?" nt

[political_outcast]

56. liberal agenda, conservative agenda

is there anything else?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

59. Couched in that phrasing it just sounds like RW talking point.

There are better ways of putting it, like "Democratic Party Platform."

[political_outcast]

61. I don't like typing any more than I have to....n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

65. Conveying one's viewpoint favorably is more important than typing a few less letters.

What's the point of doing something half-ass?

[political_outcast]

67. I am more interested in substance than labels n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

70. Good! I'll be interested in seeing you produce posts with substance in the future.

However, part of producing an argument of substance involves using language that is more likely to garner agreement with your readers. Divisive labels like "liberal agenda" will only serve to repel those in the middle, serve as cannon fodder for those on the right, and anger those on the left, who recognize the harm caused by divisive terms.

It's best to use language that will draw the most people to your argument, as opposed to repelling the most people possible.

[political_outcast]

74. posts of substance?

you wrote:
<i>

However, part of producing an argument of substance involves using language that is more likely to garner agreement with your readers.
</i>


What about my two posts in this thread that deal with substance rather than mt responses to the many questions from other posters regarding labels that seem to be of a great concern to them? PLease feel free to comment on those two substantive posts.

<i>

Divisive labels like "liberal agenda" will only serve to repel those in the middle, serve as cannon fodder for those on the right, and anger those on the left, who recognize the harm caused by divisive terms.

</i>

You seem to be offended. My deepest apologies! Perhaps we can brainstorm and find short and inoffensive acronyms for "liberal agenda" and "conservative agenda".

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

80. How about Democratic Party platform, policy, etc?

There's two things you can now use in lieu of ever saying "liberal agenda" ever again.

[political_outcast]

82. I am not sure that is accurate

when I speak of liberal agenda I refer to ideas and goals associated with liberals in general and not necessarily associated with or espoused or advocated by the democratic party. So, it is broader than just the democratic party.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

84. Progressive goals, policy, platform et cetera.

Unless you're Rush Limbaugh or the ilk, there is no excuse for saying "liberal agenda."

[LostinVA]

97. Exactly -- total RW meme

Just like "Gay Agenda," "PC," etc.

[NMMNG]

86. "I am more interested in substance than labels"

Liberal Agenda really sounds like a label.

[political_outcast]

87. I wouldn't know

I don't really pay much attention to labels

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

88. If you're going to be active politically, even online, you need to start paying attention to labels.

They're actually important sometimes.

[NMMNG]

91. And yet you use them so well

:popcorn:

[LostinVA]

98. Yup

Maybe someone was bored over Thanksgiving Break.

[Sapphocrat]

55. What "liberal agenda"? n/t

[political_outcast]

58. liberal agenda == the general set of ideas associated with liberals

and the democratic party


Conservative agenda== the general set of ideas associated with conservatives and the GOP agenda.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

62. By the extension of that logic...

do you refer to equal rights for homosexuals as the "homosexual agenda?"

[political_outcast]

64. No. Would you like me to? n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

66. No, because I don't use RW talking points, like "liberal agenda" or "homosexual agenda."

However, by the extension of the logic you gave for using the term "liberal agenda," then you would then refer to the "homosexual agenda."

I'm just pointing out the phrasing of your own language and how you could issue your point more effectively. Nothing more.

[political_outcast]

68. sorry, I don't keep up with all the latest rightwing labels n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

71. Yes, these pesky RW labels! Dear God, they're only 20 years old. Can't even drink legally!

[political_outcast]

75. again, labels are not my primary concern, but solutions to real problems

I apologize if I have transgressed against local customs. See my post above regarding possible inoffensive acronyms to facilitate communication.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

81. Using proper "labels" helps garner the support for solutions to "real problems."

I gave you some "labels" to use in the post above.

[LostinVA]

99. Transgression against "local customs"?

See the name of this board? "Democratic Underground." It is a big tent here: Progressives, moderates, some DLCers... but it is Democratic. We do not use well known RW memes, talking points, and labels here, because we are not a RW/Conservative board. And, as another poster said, these are well-known memes/labels used for at least 20 years.

[political_outcast]

124. my humble apologies

it seems that each group, association, tribe, clan, sect, etc., has its own vocabulary, and some words may be taboo/forbidden with a certain tribe, etc. A thousands pardons if I have broken a local custom or taboo.

[stepnw1f]

135. "A thousands pardons if I have broken a local custom or taboo."

Take your arrogance elsewhere..... and nobody buys your crap about not knowing about "labels". You used one: "Liberal Agenda". Wanna be a smart ass? First act with a little respect and come into a debate honestly. If you can't get lost!

[political_outcast]

138. please forgive me, as I am a stranger in these parts

Pardon me, kind sire/madame. And I thank you for taking the time to teach me your customs.

[LostinVA]

140. Whatever -- enjoy your fun

[political_outcast]

146. Thanks! I enjoy the inclusive & welcoming atmosphere here at DU! n/t

[cboy4]

60. Could you stop calling it the "liberal agenda?" Rush Limbaugh and

other Freeptards use that term and I hate it.

It also sounds like "homosexual agenda," and don't even get me going on that.

[political_outcast]

63. what do YOU call it? n/t

[cboy4]

73. How about priority? How about goal? How about our platform?

"Agenda" has been adopted by the right wing as a smear.

It's insulting and if Rush Limbaugh loves the word, it would seem to me as a liberal, you would be interested in finding and using a different description.

Do you also say "stay the course" and "cut and run?"

[political_outcast]

77. Is there a list of allowable words and phrases?

I fear to speak at all now, for I am not a fan of these people you speak of, and so am not familiar with their terminology.

[cboy4]

83. Well, I'm certainly not fans of "these people," either, but I figured it

out and so should you.

I believe people are willing to give you a break if you're open to accepting the fact that "agenda" is a right wing code word.

If you don't have a problem with the word, I think you can expect us to continue criticizing its use.

After all, this is a Democratic site.

We don't welcome right wing views, including right wing propaganda words.

[political_outcast]

85. how about "liberal platform"? Is that acceptable? n/t

[cboy4]

92. Well I can't speak for everyone at DU, but I certainly don't have a

problem with it in general, depending on how the term is used of course.

It is one thousand times better than "liberal agenda"...that's for sure! :thumbsup:

[political_outcast]

104. so if america starts using "liberal platform" instead of liberal agenda"

we can wipe out racism!
Of course, as I pointed out above, some people have difference goals, such as universal healthcare....

[cwydro]

112. Hi there!

and welcome to DU!:hi:

[Bridget Burke]

155. Hint: You can be against racism & still want universal healthcare.

Although I don't see "Seinfeld" as racist. It's just a comedy about a small circle of neurotics. Some witty writing.

You really aren't fooling anybody here....

[political_outcast]

161. A powerful American Left? "Wanting" vs "Getting" universal healthcare

you wrote:

"You can be against racism & still want universal healthcare."

But perhaps the American Left is dead compared to the left in europe: While America went backwards, europe got universal healthcare, progressive taxation, 5 weeks vacation, years of unemployment benefits.

meanwhile we go backwards here in America. Does that mean the Left in America is so very strong as to "fight racism" (which some would argue is not the ultimate effect, but instead the American Left is engendering racism) AND at the same time get european style social benefits such as universal healthcare, progressive taxation, etc. The facts would seem to say otherwise.

Further, is american leftism obsessed with race and gender identity politics which instead of uniting all americans behind leftism, instead alienates middle class white americans because they feel that american leftism is making THEM the scapegoat for the race crimes of slavery that were perpetrated by the upper class? These are arguments that other Leftists like me have made..


You say that "you can be for racism and still want universal healthcare."

Yes, perhaps, but can a leftist/progressive/liberal be FOR waging a long and divisive and fruitless war on racist thoughts in white people and yet still GET universal healthcare. "Wanting" and "getting" are not the same thing.

you wrote:
"You really aren't fooling anybody here...."

Thank you for your kind and considerate comments, but I am a Leftist. What do you mean?

[Bridget Burke]

163. Where have you seen a "long and divisive and fruitless war" ....

Against racist thoughts in white people? We're just making comments on racial aspects of life in the USA. If we'd just shut up about racism, everything would be OK! Thanks for the information.

Hint: I've known Democrats, many of whom are quite Liberal. I've known Socialists & a few actual card-carrying members of the CPUSA. None of them has EVER called himself or herself a "Leftist."

The Immigrant-baiting is another clue that you are not what you claim to be.

Vagina? Yeah, right.

[Balbus]

132. Yes, there is as a matter of fact.

Banned words/phrases:

Personal responsibility
pro-life
illegal immigrant/alien
Hugh Chavez is a scumbag, asshat dictator
Iraq "war"
Israel's right to exist
Southpark is funny

and many more I can't think of at the moment.

[stepnw1f]

137. No... We Have a Petty Few to Repeat Your List, Balbus

You whine because your arguments have been squashed many times.... that doesn't mean anything in that list was banned. It just means most DISAGREE with YOU! GET OVER IT ALREADY!

[Quantess]

147. Just one little thing, Balbus:

I would argue that "personal responsibility" can be used. "Welfare queen", on the other hand, is a phrase to be avoided.:-)

[treestar]

117. Could you try just a little to avoid being distracted by one word?

Not every term is always politically loaded. If people are going to be this sensitive, it gets impossible to get anywhere. Now you're arguing about whether the word "agenda" can be used!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[political_outcast]

119. perhaps "not getting anywhere" is the purpose. I refer you to the book "1984"

they eviscerated the vocabulary to stifle political dissent.

[Lilith Velkor]

118. !!

Holy Smokes, it's cry0fan! :wow:

Welcome to DU. Enjoy your stay, and be sure to tip the bartenders and waitresses! :toast:

[hsher]

10. As someone black/Jewish who once worked in Hollywood, my take is...

It's not racist. Not every show has to include all specific races on it. That's "quota" and has an uncomfortable feel. You hope popular shows will reach out to show an expansive view of things, but not all do. Seinfeld rarely featured black people, but that was its prerogative. Disappointing, but just one show on a list of disappointing things. I wish for instance more black women were allowed to be feature film directors. That would positively impact my life and career. I don't even write scripts "only about black people". Most of them star white people. But I'm not given the chance, and the reasons are often just what Pitts described: I've seen it in action: "It is jobs you don't get and loans you don't get and apartments you don't get and health care you don't get and justice you don't get, for reasons you get all too clearly, even though no one ever quite speaks them. Or needs to. It is smiles in your face and knives in your back." Bravo, very well said.

So Jerry never had occasion or reason to regularly include black folks in the narrow world of his show. But that world was narrow indeed, which was a part of its charm. I don't recall, come to think of it, very many Vietnamese people regularly on it either. We never became more than a blip on Seinfeld's comedy radar. Ultimately it's his loss; and Hollywood, depriving me of the opportunities to direct hit features, has its own loss in that.

I had some pretty good film ideas, too. Anyway... let me scoot before I get tr--lwhupped :yoiks:

[mykpart]

12. Isn't that like asking if "All In The Family" was racist?

Seinfeld's characters are self-absorbed, superficial morons. But I don't think the show itself advocates this kind of behavior - rather it satirizes it. And it depicts NY life from the very limited perspective of its characters, who might well be racist.

[mattclearing]

38. But All in the Family exposed racism. Seinfeld ignores black people altogether.

Like they don't exist.

And don't give me that "Upper West Side is black-free bullshit," because not only is it not true, it's a lame excuse.

That stupid show Jericho, about the apocalypse in Kansas, has more black characters in every episode than the entire run of Seinfeld.

Pathetic.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

69. See post #44.

The show had black characters, so it's not like blacks were ignored, as you stated.

[mattclearing]

76. I've responded to that bullshit already in this thread.

Yeah, having a character that apes Johnny Cochran proves the show isn't racist.

:eyes:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

78. You stated the show "ignored black people."

Taken at face value, that would mean no blacks were over on the show, which is clearly not the case. And Jackie Chiles (the Cochran-esque character) was not the only black character on the show.

I never saw an East Indian character on the show. Does that mean the show was racist against East Indians?

[KittyWampus]

123. Do you even KNOW who Johnny Cochran was?

besides "OJ's lawyer"?

Cause you seem to imply having someone like him on Seinfield was racist in and of itself.

[Quantess]

14. No, not particularly.

I do notice a heavy Jewish flavor, but that's about it.
Lots of TV shows underrepresent minorities, and often, women.

[Smarmie Doofus]

20. The upper-west side *is* a sort of 'black-free" zone.

>>>And it is, yes, a sitcom — like "Seinfeld" — that presents New York City, of all places, as a black-free zone."

First, does Seinfeld present New York City as a "black-free zone"?>>>>

The city as a whole is not but denizens of the UWS are overwhelmingly white and middle class. The show does a reasonably accurate job of describing the lives of a certain subset of UWS New Yorkers who for whatever reason ( race, socioeconomic status, geography) don't have a lot of contact with non-whites on a social level.

I guess you could say then that upper west siders are racist. The *show*? I don't think so.

I think that the terms of the discussion have to be clearer... beginning with the word "racist".

I don't think there are a lot of potential crossburners on West End Ave. On the contrary, I think UWSiders are a fairly benevolent bunch.

[mattclearing]

39. If you think one must be a potential crossburner to be a racist, you probably

shouldn't be having this discussion on this forum.

[NMMNG]

89. There are people who think that way

Just as there are those who think that if atheists homes aren't being burned down or they aren't being physically assaulted/killed then they aren't being persecuted. Apparently unless you or your property suffer significant damage you have no reason to complain.

[Smarmie Doofus]

100. And if you think that's what I said, you should learn....

>>>>If you think one must be a potential crossburner to be a racist, you probably

shouldn't be having this discussion on this forum.>>>

...to read with comprehension.

I *said* the terms of the discussion need to be defined... beginning with the word 'racist'.

[chimpymustgo]

40. Upper West Side "a black free zone"???? LOLOLOL Only on Seinfeld.

I always found the show amusing....but completely out of touch with reality. Even an insular, very-white life brings you into contact with people of color in NYC - especially in places like the Upper West Side. So there is an undercurrent, and element of racism in the underlyng principle.

[mattclearing]

41. Word. n/t

[KittyWampus]

125. Except the characters on the show DID come "into contact with people of color".

I think some of us really have issues with needing to be seen as Ultra-Inclusive.

And most times such liberals are compensating for their own hidden insecurities about said issues, IMO.

[Smarmie Doofus]

164. The upper west side I will operationally define as....

.... 59th to 96th street from CPW to Riverside Drive. There are very few non-whites, as a % of the total population, in residence on the UWS. If I am wrong.... please tell me where the non-white residents are being hidden.

There are many nonwhites who go to school, shop and work ( largely retail) on the UWS and go home to other sections of the city. The typical UWSer, in my observation ( as an outsider, BTW) has contact with these folks but it is generally of a fleeting nature.

The gist of the anti-Seinfeld sentiment expressed here seems to be that the *regulars* on the show... not the bit characters, eg, librarians, dry-cleaning clerks who are often nonwhite.... are overwhelmingly white. I'm sorry, my experience is that this is pretty accurate. Most UWSiders socialize and affiliate withe other UWSiders, and not with people from the Bronx, for example. ( I'm from the Bronx, BTW).

>>>>So there is an undercurrent, and element of racism in the underlying principle.>>>

Ya lost me here; in the underlying principle of *what*?

[BlooInBloo]

28. Yes, and yes. Tune in next week for another exciting episode of....

... Simple Answers To Simple Questions! (c) Atrios


Skeleton-elaboration: White folks nowadays get their racist jollies by couching their thoughts in vague enough lingo to be able to maintain at least a facade of plausible deniability. Of course, they're really only maintaining that facade for other white folks, so that facade doesn't have to be all that substantial.

[Dastard Stepchild]

159. I love your overgerneralizations....

They fit in nicely on DU's General Discussion board.

You're not completely wrong, yet you are not completely right either, but you speak with such a sense of assured indignation that you can easily lay down the "No, YOU are the ignorant fool" card on the merit of passion alone. This is how I can tell when I've wandered onto the GD forum, having taken a wrong turn from the Lounge.

I think your posts are thought-provoking, but they have that smarmy tinge of GD that makes them less palatable overall. However, it is good to have you here - you stir up the pot very nicely.

:hi:

[mattclearing]

37. You can count the number of black characters on Seinfeld with one hand.

That's just sad.

[QuestionAll...]

90. but you can count a lot stupid white people on a couple hands,

that's how I see it now. ;)
it's like inverse physics or something.

it comforts me,
so please don't disturb it.

[BlueStater]

93. They shouldn't create a character just for being black

Here's a question: were all those generic black sitcoms on WB and UPN back in 90's racist because they didn't feature any WHITE people?

[mondo joe]

106. No it's not.

It's a show about an insular group of friends.

Shockingly enough - of the 4 of them they are the same skin color.

[roseBudd]

168. CoCo, the black guy that worked for the Yankees, the black guy George pretended was his friend...

the black family George watched a video with, the marathoner Jerry didn't wake up when Kramer's hot tub blew a fuse.

The lawyer Jackie Chiles.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

44. No, not at all.

And the show had several black characters, like the Johnny Cochran-esque Jackie Chiles, who made repeated appearances on the show. Hell, the last episode even showed him in bed with Teri Hatcher -- I call that progress.

:D

EDIT: Also, Mr. Morgan, George's boss at one point, the guy George wanted to bond with because he needed black friends, Sid the car mover (early seasons), and a lot of smaller roles as well.

[davidinalameda]

72. how many black characters were on Will and Grace

I can only think of a few

was that show racist as well?

[AngryOldDem]

130. Or on "The West Wing"?

Dule Hill had a lead role as Charlie Young, and there were only two other black characters that appeared with some regularity: Nancy McNally and Admiral Fitzwallace. The point remains, though, that their characters were so nuanced and well-acted that race was never a factor in their portrayals, which is as it should be in any medium these days. It should not be how **many** minorities are featured in a cast, but **how** they are presented. If we only focus on the former and ignore the latter, we run the risk of ending up with modern-day minstrel shows. I'd like to think we've gotten beyond that.

Someone brought up "Good Times." As that show progressed, I began to see it as one of the most racist shows going. I defy anyone to point out ANY redeeming qualities in that show after Esther Rolle and John Amos left.

So "The West Wing" was racist, too. Who knew.

(By the way, I'm not sure I get the point of this thread, or of the column that started it. Richards had an asshole moment the other night, when someone called him on his bullshit and he couldn't handle it. That's where it begins and ends with me, unless we would want to explore the question of just how many of us in society also have this side to our personalities in this so-called "enlightened" day and age, as much as we would want to deny it? But I think that's already been discussed on DU, too.)

[davidinalameda]

134. finally, an intelligent post

you hit the nail on the head-it's quality not quantity

[entanglement]

96. It was a show by, for and about a group of Jews, so it's a non-issue IMHO

There are more important things than the racial composition of the cast of some crappy TV show.

[Kelly Rupert]

113. Self-selected social groups are often extremely homogenous.

All my friends are white. Not that I have anything against black people, but my social circle is pretty much limited to Greeks and Russian Jews. Do I particularly like Greeks? Not really. I just happen to befriend a Greek, who has a largely Greek social circle. Do I have a particular love of Jewish people? Not really. I befriended a guy who happened to be Jewish, and who happens to have mostly Jewish friends. Am I racist? Since I never rejected any African-Americans, I find that hard to believe.

[HamdenRice]

114. Yes, the Seinfeld show was racist

And that's why Seinfeld is so eager to give Richards a chance to apologize. The show was already vulnerable and Seinfeld is trying to save his syndication bacon.

Unfortunately, I cannot find this article I read about 5 or 10 years ago, so you'll have to trust me. It was not about Seinfeld, per se, but was a profile of an up and coming comedian. The guy was either white or latino, but his specialty was an uncanny ability to do New York accents. So apparently, Seinfeld's people saw him perform in New York and wrote a guest spot for him and flew him out to California to film an episode. This profile then described a process so degrading and disgusting -- a scene out of Bobby Townsend's Hollywood Shuffle -- that the comedian ended up not filming the episode and flying back to NY. As I remember it, the Seinfeld people were yelling at him to make some minority character more buffoonish, and the comedian wouldn't go that deep into minstrelsy.

So ever since reading that article, and in the context of their creating a Negro-less New York, I would say, yes, Seinfeld was a racist show.

[treestar]

116. This is too much

Maybe Good Times was racist if it had some episodes with no white characters?

Blacks are a minority too, sometimes they will not be around due to sheer lack of numbers.

[CatWoman]

121. *ahem*

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2791243

[boolean]

122. There were blacks on Seinfeld

"Friends", on the other hand, was totally white until someone spoke up and they finally had a black guest star.

[ecstatic]

126. I always thought Friends was racist in the sense

of targetting only white viewers. I didn't watch the show--I couldn't watch the show. I didn't "get" the humor. I think very few nonwhite persons "got it."

At least Seinfeld's show was actually funny, despite their stereotypical depiction of minorities. Of course, knowing that one (or more) of the cast members could be KKK-type racists does cast the show in a new light...

[Cleita]

150. I thought the same about "Friends". Although it did ring true

that maybe some white friends would tend to have other white friends, they still would have had to interact with other races especially in NYC, while at work, at Central Perk, dealing with the bldg. super. and dating. Even the few shows that they showed Courtney Cox at her chef's job all the kitchen help were white, which would not have reflected real life.

[Marie26]

127. I don't like it

It's not necessarily racist, but it consistently portrays ethnic minorities as "threats" to the upper-middle class protaganists - whether it's the bitter Pakistani immigrant, the screaming "Soup Nazi", etc. But that might just be because the show is misanthropic, in general.

[Generic Other]

131. Maybe a more interesting question is whether tv is somewhat segregated

In the old days there were race movies for people of color. They only appeared in black communities and featured all black casts. Today, that color separation is not so blatant but in the tv sitcom world may still be a subtle factor. It does seem as if some shows are mainly targeting black audiences. They rarely feature white characters. On the flip side there seem to be shows that cater mostly to white audiences.

One might believe this is due to self-selection by audiences. Pitts makes an interesting point about the subtle nature of modern racism. One can't always identify it yet may always wonder if it is there.

I read an article about a woman who was a white character in a simulated role playing world. She changed to a beautiful black female character and reported some interesting differences. She got hit on by men who assumed she was more likely to be sexually available as a black female. And she was called the "n-word" repeatedly. She found the experience to be an upsetting eye opener.

Perhaps we should applaud all those shows that have actively made an effort to be inclusive especially if such choices impact ratings the only thing tv execs really care about anyway.

Most Seinfeld or Friends watchers probably would have accepted a person of color in the shows regular cast, but the tv execs are afraid to take risks. It is an interesting question as to whether this reflects bigotry or timidity.

[Beelzebud]

142. No, it's not racist. There is real racism in America, but that show isn't it.

[Beelzebud]

144. Is Howard Dean racist?

He didn't have any black staff members in 2004, remember?

Of course Dean isn't a racist, and neither is the show Seinfeld...

[suston96]

145. I posted this on the other thread about Seinfeld....

... Seinfeld was a show, or is a show, about four New York City neurotics, reflecting the neurosis of one of the shows creators, Larry David. Go watch "Curb Your Enthusiasm" written by and starring Larry David, and you will get the idea.

The characters in Seinfeld ridicule themselves. So people are complaining that there were not enough black characters joining in with the group neurotics ridiculing themselves? There were or there are many black shows where that self-ridicule theme prevails or is interwoven, but it is in the black friendly situation that would attract minimum complaints from the racism reactors.

Seinfeld is not a show to tokenize races, colors, and creeds. Instead, Seinfeld treated those societal implications cleverly and with restraint so that the basic neuroses of the main chracters remained the running themes.

As I posted on the other thread, "The Wire" {HBO) is about young, black drug addicts and black gangstahs, with token white cops and white politicians. Try that show and look for the situational neurosis that pervades.

Sometimes neurosis is funny. And sometimes it is tragic. And sometimes it involves one race more than another.

[rinsd]

148. Yeah Black people missed out on being portrayed as self absorbed neurotics!

Oh the humanity!

:sarcasm:

[Cleita]

149. All the Seinfeld characters seemed to embody the worst in human

character flaws in various degrees depending on the character. This is why they all end up in jail in the last episode. They weren't very nice people. They took gallows humor to a very sophisticated high. IMHO.

[Taxloss]

151. No, Seinfeld is not racist, but ...

... the characters in it, as written, probably harbour some, even many, racist views and attitudes, even though they (the characters) would deny it. This is play on again, and again, and again in the show - particularly in the episode "The Cigar-Store Indian", where Jerry is dating a native American woman, and manages to insult her several times. Seinfeld is a show about insular, self-absorbed and selfish people who exhibit a whole array of unpleasant characteristics and personality tics. In that respect it is an accurate portrayal of a world full of inconsiderate and selfish people, only in Seinfeld's world they find themselves endlessly embarrassed and humiliated by their own attitudes.

It's wrong to conflate fact with fiction, sitcoms with reality, and actors with the roles they play.

[Catherine Vincent]

152. I don't think the show was racist. It just wasn't FUNNY!

I guess you had to be from NY to enjoy that show? :shrug:

[Ignacio Upton]

160. It was done from a middle-class New York (mostly Jewish) perspective

The cliques that the cast hanged around with were white, but the makeup of the cliques isn't so far off from real life. There were also episodes where the characters do something to offend people and get ridiculed for it (Jerry and the cigar store indian, and George mistaking a black coworker for Sugar Ray.)

[NNadir]

153. I don't know. I've never seen it.

[Dastard Stepchild]

158. Writers write about what they know...

A tired, but true, statement.

Seinfeld was the dramatization of Seinfeld and Davis's lives. It was a Black person-free show because they lead, I am willing to bet, Black person-free lives. Which is not that unusual for most White Americans. And I say MOST. There are, of course, exceptions to the rule, but the average White American will not have a Black individual in their close social circle. I wish I could remember the title of a good book that talked about this. I want to say that it was "Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?: And Other Conversations about Race," but I could be wrong. I remember discussing the topic in an urban education class I took, but I can't, for the life of me, remember the names of the source materials.

[AZBlue]

170. So by that definition, the Cosby Show would be labeled racist too.

So would Moesha, the Bernie Mac Show, Girlfriends, Living Single, What's Happening!, Jamie Foxx show, The Parent Hood, Family Matters, Martin, Good Times, Sister Sister, Sanford and Son, George Lopez, and many, many more.

I mean, they, like Seinfeld, had characters of different races and ethnicities, but their main characters are all one nationality or race.

[aikoaiko]

172. WHen I lived near NYC, I found the inhabitants to almost as parochial

...as people from a small town. Its just that they were parochial among millions of other people.