Am I wrong to suggest that we just leave Iraq to the Iraqis?

[Philosoraptor]

My point being, that we can't 'fix' it over there, there is no happy, agreeable fix, there is no solution in my opinion, but it is an unpopular one apparently.

I wish we could just say, "That's it, We're out o' here, you're on your own". Literally, just leave. Let them settle their own ancient battles, let them decide themselves what form of government they want, leave us out of it, we are only making it worse.

Why is this notion always shot down? "No, we can't just leave, it'll descend into civil war"! "No, we must finish the job"! I say we just leave Iraq to the Iraqis, leave it to the Sunnis and Shiites, just leave it. It can't be won. There is no western solution. There will be no such thing as a victory for America, it's a faerie tale.

Am I just being inhuman and cynical?

[lvx35]

1. What!?!? The barbarity of letting them choose for themselves!?!?

I suppose you also support the idea that we should back what the majority of the Iraqis want as well? Don't you know we are there to being Democracy? How can we support something as barbaric as majority rule???

:sarcasm:

its about the oil, friend.

[luckyleftyme2]

NO YOUR PROBABLY RIGHT

There is no reasonable end now.The reason is it was planned to go on for profit.
but it got out of hand sooner than expected.(the occupation)
a good example of the corruption involved over there is the answer kbr the construction out fit who's made mega -buck profits answer to people they hired who need medical help.
you knew what you were getting into.=LETS PUT A LIEN ON THEIR BUSINESS AND HOLDINGD UNTIL THEY COUGH UP.AN FOR THOSE LAW-MAKERS WHO DON'T GET ON THE WAGON CENSURE THEM!

there is no solution but withdrawal now!

KELLOG BROWN AND ROOT= KBR

[lvx35]

7. Absolutely no solution but withdrawal now.

For morality. This disgusting abomination...done in my name? Kiss my ass!

Censure? I'm afraid something slow, but more severe, may be in order...

[leftchick]

2. the OIL

the truth is when you hear a politician say that, what they really mean is, we can not leave all of that oil to a country in civil war. Sad but true.

[lapfog_1]

15. You know, eventually we are going to have to face a world

that doesn't have Iraqi or Saudi oil. When the OPEC embargo happened, our leaders should have created the crash program then to get us off the oil habit. Instead we worked a deal, and sent these 12th century societies boatloads of cash. Their leaders (mostly at our prodding, but also because of previous British meddling and even their own sense of wanting to join the western world) pushed those societies hard to catch up. The Shah and Saddam are the most obvious examples of them pushing for the "norms" of western civilization. But they tried to do it in one or two generations, and with corruption and greed and suppression as the tools of coercion. Is there any wonder that there is a backlash? A longing for the days of their grandfathers where the tribal council could still decide things according to religious law... So they reject western culture where they see greed and sexual standards that are hugely different than theirs (we can't think of a society where a woman can't marry whom she please, can't drive or hold a job, and can't control her own sexual life if she pleases, etc, etc and they can't think of a society that allows such things).

Well, we sent them the money. And the fast food and movies and everything else (we wanted those dollars back dammit), and now we are surprised at the resulting shit storm.

We should have bit the bullet then, kicked our addiction to oil and spent billions on the technology to replace it... no matter how cheap OPEC oil became.

It was the right decision then, it's been the right decision every year since then, and it's the right decision today. Let them have their oil, let's hock everything we have as a nation (our homes, our businesses, our nation landmarks) and finally do this right. The money we save in the first 20 years of being oil free will more than pay back the debt we run up. One trillion ought to just about do it. Maybe.

[maine_raptor]

3. I love that "we can't just leave, it'll descend into civil war" meme.

Like, dude what would you cal what's going on there now? A minor squabble?

[luckyleftyme2]

9. DESCRIBE CIVIL WAR

CIVIL WAR IS WHEN ONE OR MORE FACTIONS OF A POPULACE RISES UP AGAINST THE RULING AUTHORITY!

HELL CHIMP,EVEN YOU AND CHENNY AND RICE OUGHTA GET THAT!

IT'S CIVIL WAR AND HAS BEEN FOREVER!
GET US OUTTA THEIR "DUBYA"

[Bucky]

11. Right; Bushies constantly tell us the WoT is a new kind of warfare;but Iraq isn't a "real" civil war

[Jeanette in FL]

4. The plan was chaos and it is working well.

Once we all realize that it becomes very simple. Iraq is not a failure at all. Everything is going just as planned.

Iraq was never about WMD, Saddam the Dictator, Freeing the wonderful Iraqi people, democracy.

It was about stealing a nations natural resources. It was about occupying a central mideastern nation to control the region. Why else would we be building 16 permanent bases and a State Dept. as big as Vatican City.

This is about Empire building.

[lvx35]

8. What's failing...

its the pretense that the the people would LIKE it.

they do not, and the effects are showing in a big way.

[cali]

14. You do realize

that you can't produce oil effectively in the midst of chaos, don't you? Gotta say, of all the dumb theories about the intents of the warmongers, this is the dumbest. By far.

[The Straight Story]

5. I think the problem here is:

It is because of our intervention that things have become as they are, for better or for worse. If we pull out to save the lives of our people knowing that the situation will cause many more deaths then we are seeing now, are we morally responsible for it?

To wit: You attack a country, remove it's leader(s), and then exit and it all falls apart and many die in the vacuum you made - is that the right course to pursue? Or should you stay and nurse the wounds you created?

If we want to run so that we can save the 'white people' who are dying there and allow the 'brown' people to fight it out and die, what does that say about us?

On the flip side of that, we helped them already, they have a new government, and yet they are not changing their ways - why should we die because they are not willing to embrace peace?

it is complicated while being almost simple. We removed a dictator, gave a people freedom, and they are killing each other in hopes of controlling each other. I am not sure there is much else we can do...

[B Calm]

6. Operation Iraq Liberation = OIL

[malaise]

12. Bingo n/t

[malaise]

13. Bingo n/t

[rman]

10. How about leave but not "just leave" - as in Kucinich's plan:

replace US troops with UN troops, starting asap, to be completed in 6 months.

After all the "ancient war" (aka civil war) that Iraqis now seem engaged in is the result of US interference in the region; fact is the US/coalition of the willing did create the mess over there, and leaving it to the Iraqis to deal with it seems a bit irresponsible to say the least.

[Bucky]

16. Fair or not, lies or not, we went thru a democratic process as a nation to choose war; Iraq didn't

I don't think we get to choose when it's time for us to leave. Everyone who supported the war heard the same evidence and the same arguments for and against the war that I did. Everyone who supported the war in Iraq was born with the same capacity to sift out lies from truth that I was born with. If I could see thru the lies and recognize war wasn't necessary, all the voters of this country had the same ability.

Yet having all the same evidence and logical faculties, this country chose war. Our Congress, our elected Congress, in turn elected to sign onto a IWR; opinion polls showed a bare majority of the country concurred with that vote. In a Democracy that means we all chose this war and we don't get to end it just because our troops are dying now.

The Iraqi people had no choice in this war. They had no democracy; they had no free press; they had no voice in their government. And yet we brought our war against their government down onto their heads and homes--literally. We bombed areas near civilian centers and destroyed "collaterals" by the dozens with each new targeting. It was all our choice, not theirs.

We don't get to decide it's time to go from there now, just because we're tired of the mess we made or because the American body count is uncomfortably high. We had the capacity to know that before hand. The voters made the wrong choice; Congress made the wrong choice... but in the end it was a democratic choice.

We should leave only when the Iraqis tell us to leave. We owe them that and the cost to us in blood and treasure is something we agreed to pay long ago in the war resolution of 2002. That's a binding contract. Fortunately, they seem to want us done and gone away now, so I support a withdrawal. But any appeal to American property or political interests to end this war is illegitimate.

[itsmesgd]

17. no occupation has ever been sucessful

We ARE leaving Iraq to the Iraqis whether we know it or not, but recent headlines show that we are becoming aware. Unfortunately, we are still leaving our troops in the middle of their mess. If we are going to quit Iraq (which will happen) we should at least have the decency to bring our troops home before one more dies in this foreign policy f'up.

[Philosoraptor]

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