Anyone that thinks there's no hope for evangelicals, listen to this

[greenman3610]

http://www.thislife.org/pages/descriptions/05/304.html

The story of Reverend Carlton Pearson, a renowned evangelical pastor in Tulsa, Oklahoma, who cast aside the idea of hell, and with it, everything he'd worked for over his entire life.

Prologue. Carlton Pearson's church, Higher Dimensions, was once one of the biggest in the city, drawing crowds of 5,000 people every Sunday. But several years ago, scandal engulfed the Reverend. He didn't have an affair. He didn't embezzle lots of money. His sin was something that to a lot of people is far worse ... he stopped believing in hell.

[Christa]

1. Oh woe

straight to hell with him :toast:

[maseman]

2. I went to the website

Pretty interesting. People in the religious world tend to be scared to think differently for fear of being outcast by their peers. GOD forbid that the brains that the Almighty gave us be put to good use.

People tend to forget that humans wrote the bible. Neither God nor Jesus sat down and hand wrote the thing. The last time I checked man was imperfect. Why does the masses assume that the bible is not perfect then. My wife grew up very religious (a Mennonite) and still believes unconditionally that the bible is true. we don't discuss much since we both choose that the marriage is more important then our disagreements about the bible.

[lapfog_1]

3. I think most biblical scholars believe that hell is not

referenced in the bible except 4 times outside of the Book of Revelations. And those references do not paint an accurate picture of Hell except that it was "down" (descend into Hades), and it's where some ended up after death.

And some even think that the book of Revelation probably should not have been included in the bible, seeing that it was not written by an apostle or even a contemporary of Christ, but rather a hermit monk that lived in a cave on the island of Patmos some 60 years after Christ.

The early Church loved Revelation because it was a good way to scare people into "correct behavior" and create the "fear of god", so it was finally included. And it's the basis for a lot of crazy shit in the Evangelical movement.

[papau]

4. I agree :-)

:-)

[maseman]

9. What an interesting thought

The book of Revelation was the hook to the entire bible. The bible pretty much (especially the new testament) is a feel good document. Many people may feel compelled to do what is right in order to please a higher power and to simply do the right thing.

But for those people who are not interested in the right thing to do may feel afraid of hell to the point of doing the right thing.

It seems the two most grey areas of the bible that the die-hard Christians take for complete gospel are hell and homos. Both really are not addressed much but get the most air-play.

[papau]

15. Revelation was Apocrypha(useful but not = to Holy Scripture) until Trent (1546) locked it down

in the Holy Scripture portion of the Roman Bible. The Orthodox locked it down earlier I believe as Holy Scripture (but after 1000AD). Before then folks in both branches could not agree if it was or was not Holy Scripture. And the Council of Trent was for the Roman Church (although others later adopted its definition of Holy Scripture). Other branches of the Church still may, or may not, accept Revelation as Holy Scripture, depending on the Branch.

Revelation is not now the hook to the entire bible, and never has been - but you are correct if you are saying that it has been used by various preachers over the years from the beginning (those we call fundies today - but not even all fundies are into it).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

In the 4th century, St. John Chrysostom and other bishops argued against including this book in the New Testament canon, chiefly because of the difficulties of interpreting it and the danger for abuse. Christians in Syria also reject it because of the Montanists' heavy reliance on it. In the 9th century, it was included with the Apocalypse of Peter among "disputed" books in the Stichometry of St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople. In the end it was included in the accepted canon, although it remains the only book of the New Testament that is not read within the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible

n c. 380, the redactor of the Apostolic Constitutions attributed a canon to the Twelve Apostles themselves (<14>) as the 85th of his list of such apostolic decrees:

Canon 85. Let the following books be esteemed venerable and holy by all of you, both clergy and laity. And our sacred books, that is, of the New Testament, are the four Gospels, of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John; the fourteen Epistles of Paul; two Epistles of Peter; three of John; one of James; one of Jude; two Epistles of Clement; and the Constitutions dedicated to you, the bishops, by me, Clement, in eight books, which is not appropriate to make public before all, because of the mysteries contained in them; and the Acts of us, the Apostles. (From the Latin version.)

Nicephorus: the Patriarch of Jerusalem, 806-815, in a Stichometria <22> appended to the end of his Chronography rejected Esther, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Maccabees, Psalms of Solomon, Enoch, Didache, Barnabas, Hermas, Clement, Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of the Hebrews, 3rd Corinthians, Acts of Paul, Revelation, Apocalypse of Peter.

...begun by Martin Luther, who made an attempt to remove the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the canon (echoing the consensus of several Catholics, also labelled Christian Humanists — such as Cardinal Ximenez, Cardinal Cajetan, and Erasmus — and partially because they were perceived to go against certain Protestant doctrines such as sola gratia and sola fide), but this was not generally accepted among his followers. However, these books are ordered last in the German-language Luther Bible to this day.<8>

Bruce Metzger's Canon of the New Testament says in 1596 Jacob Lucius published a Bible at Hamburg which labeled Luther's four as "Apocrypha"; David Wolder the pastor of Hamburg's Church of St. Peter published in the same year a triglot Bible which labeled them as "non canonical"; J. Vogt published a Bible at Goslar in 1614 similar to Lucius'; Gustavus Adolphus of Stockholm in 1618 published a Bible with them labeled as "Apocr(yphal) New Testament."

Luther also eliminated the deuterocanonical books from the Catholic Old Testament, terming them "Apocrypha, that are books which are not considered equal to the Holy Scriptures, but are useful and good to read".<9> He also argued unsuccessfully for the relocation of Esther from the Canon to the Apocrypha, since without the deuterocanonical sections, it never mentions God. As a result Catholics and Protestants continue to use different canons, which differ in respect to the Old Testament.

Council of Trent: on April 8, 1546, by vote (24 yea, 15 nay, 16 abstain) approved the present Roman Catholic Bible Canon including the Deuterocanonical Books. This is said to be the same list as produced at the Council of Florence in 1451, this list was defined as canonical in the profession of faith proposed for the Jacobite Orthodox Church. Because of its placement, the list was not considered binding for the Catholic church, and in light of Martin Luther's demands, the Catholic Church examined the question of the Canon again at the Council of Trent, which reaffirmed the Canon of the Council of Florence. The Old Testament books that had been in doubt were termed deuterocanonical, not indicating a lesser degree of inspiration, but a later time of final approval. Beyond these books, some editions of the Latin Vulgate include Psalm 151, the Prayer of Manasseh, 1 Esdras (called 3 Esdras), 2 Esdras (called 4 Esdras), and the Epistle to the Laodiceans in an appendix, styled "Apogryphi".

[xultar]

5. Excatly. Hell was dreamed up by man to keep people in line.

[acmejack]

6. Guess it has worked pretty well over the years.

There have been plenty of people in my family that were "God fearing" and I am sure that is what they feared - Eternal damnation. It always did seem rather incongruous to me, on the one hand God is love, on the other, into the pits of eternal torment with you!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

11. Yeah you could do good works for a lifetime, but if you stole a piece of bubble gum somewhere in

there, or live some place where you never heard of Jesus, and never got "saved", then you should burn in a lake of fire forever. Nice.

[Oleladylib]

7. What wonderful website...Wow! n/t

[Don_1967]

8. We have religious freedom

in this country the Reverend has the right to change his views , but he should had realized that most of his church wouldn't change along with him, that is also there right.

[maseman]

10. He probably did know that it would change

Rather then pull a Ted Haggard and live a life in hiding your true feelings or opinions, he had the cojones to embrace his change of heart and soul and make it work for him. He did just that.

I wonder how many times a minister gets into a cushy position of lead pastor, nice salary, housing and car allowances, free health care, tenure and a flock that dearly loves him. You really think he'll let a "change of heart" make waves? Heck no.

[ninkasi]

12. When I was young

I attended a United Methodist church, and our pastor didn't believe in hell, either. Membership increased while he was there, because he had the kind of warm, loving, personality that made people want to be better people, and do more charitable acts, out of love rather than fear. As a parent, I can say that my children were all good kids, never got in any trouble at school, made good grades, and are leading productive, happy lives. I never spanked. They obeyed me not out of fear or punishment, but because they loved me, and knew I loved them, and most of us enjoy pleasing the people we love.

[riderinthestorm]

13. This was also a special on This American Life on NPR

about a year ago. Anyone who has a chance should check it out in the archives, it's a really riveting story.

Not only was Carlton Pearson one of the biggest evangelicals in CO, he is Oral Roberts' son, yes that Oral Roberts who started Oral Roberts "university" (sic). So his change of heart on hell is a huge since the guy had been indoctrinated in the religion of hate his whole life.

In the NPR show, he says his church now has homosexuals and other "sinners" (cough) that he used to just blast from the pulpit but without a "hell" to condemn these folks to, he discovered that this couldn't possibly be what Jesus would have done, that these folks aren't "sinners", they are children of God just like him and everyone else. He believes he is now actually preaching Jesus' ministry for the first time in his life and that he wouldn't go back to his 5000 person church for any amount of money.

And FWIW, he went bankrupt in doing this. It's actually kind of sad that Pearson honestly, truly believed that he could just change his fundy position and everyone would agree. When you hear him on the show it's apparant that he was just floored that it caused such a rift.

He's definitely in a better place now though, if you ask me.

[Ilsa]

18. Oral Roberts' son has "Pearson" for a surname? How? nt

[noonwitch]

14. I'm a christian who doesn't believe there is a hell

A liberal christian. Paul was the one who was big on teaching that Jesus died to save us from sin and hell. My view is that Jesus died and was resurrected to teach us that we are bodies and spirit, that death is only the end of one of those things, and that we need not live our whole lives fearing our deaths.

[bobbolink]

19. There are "red-letter" Christians, who emphasize the words of Jesus.

As I understand it, they wouldn't place so much weight on Paul.

I'll take hope anywhere I can find it... :hi:

[papau]

20. I am also not a Paulist, and like many Protestants don't accept Revelation as Holy Scripture

I find much that I agree with in the Universalists (the folks who from the vary beginning rejected hell as a concept except as a form of soul cleaning - as when John says he will baptise with the Holy Spirit and with fire.) Hell is not mentioned in Mark, and Matt 13:42, like Luke, can be read again as soul cleaning - granted it sounds less pleasant than the use of water).

[bobbolink]

16. There's also other hope--- Moyer's "Is God Green?" recent program

showed several evangelicals who are actively working on environmental concerns.

Also, there are evangelicals who are promoting poverty issues (as well they should!) Haggard was one of them, and why I was so disappointed in his fall. It will be really ironic if the Dems don't get their act together and get the safety net adequately repaired FAST--and poor folk migrate away from the Dems and to the evangelicals because *they* are the ones on the side of poor folk! Think about it...

Don't forget there are evangelicals who have always been very liberal...such as Jim Wallis!

[bobbolink]

17. That's a hilarious bit --"the balconies emptied"... hahahaha

great one... THANKS!

REally enjoying him!