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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:29 PM
Original message
Poll question: Who do you think history will treat with the most contempt?
Edited on Mon Nov-27-06 05:31 PM by Solly Mack
The poll assumes Bush won't be held accountable by America and the American people.

So - IF America and the American people do not hold the Bush Regime accountable for their crimes, who will history treat with the most contempt?



Also - if you were writing a Howard Zinn like "People's History", how would you describe your feelings about life in a country that engages in crimes against humanity?


I'm sick to the core myself. I feel hopeless because of it - not always ...but all too often. Most times it just doesn't seem real - more like a nightmare there is no escape from...

Your answer can be as long or as short you need it to be...

Thank you to all that reply!!








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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Although Americans will be blamed just as the Germans were
after WWII, most of us realize we've been trapped, just like people under any other dictatorial and totalitarian regime have been trapped.

We realize, as others might not, that we paid our taxes because they were stolen out of our paychecks and we had to file returns to get the overtheft returned to us, plus stay out of jail.

We realize, as others might not, that the sheer size of this country prevents many of us from going to the Capitol and pushing our Congressmen to grow backbones and do their damned jobs holding this bunch accountable.

We also realize, as others may not, that this bunch got into office through a bloodless coup d'etat and that our greatest hope is that they can be deprived of power, wealth and freedom by a bloodless revolution according to the laws of the land.

In other words, we'd better get used to answering the question, "Why didn't you DO something?" from a lot of people, starting with our own young.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. "Why didn't you DO something?"
"... we'd better get used to answering..."

And isn't that sad?

You speak true. We will be asked - repeatedly.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. That's true - Americans now will be the new WW2 German people.
Edited on Mon Nov-27-06 05:54 PM by blm
Horrid to realize that.

The next Dem administration CANNOT be another COVERUP Dem administration. History will NOT be kind to any of us.

Democrats, the Truth Still Matters!
By Robert Parry
(First Posted May 11, 2006)

Editor's Note: With the Democratic victories in the House and Senate, there is finally the opportunity to demand answers from the Bush administration about important questions, ranging from Dick Cheney's secret energy policies to George W. Bush's Iraq War deceptions. But the Democrats are sure to be tempted to put the goal of "bipartisanship" ahead of the imperative for truth.

Democrats, being Democrats, always want to put governance, such as enacting legislation and building coalitions, ahead of oversight, which often involves confrontation and hard feelings. Democrats have a difficult time understanding why facts about past events matter when there are problems in the present and challenges in the future.

Given that proclivity, we are re-posting a story from last May that examined why President Bill Clinton and the last Democratic congressional majority (in 1993-94) shied away from a fight over key historical scandals from the Reagan-Bush-I years -- and the high price the Democrats paid for that decision:

My book, Secrecy & Privilege, opens with a scene in spring 1994 when a guest at a White House social event asks Bill Clinton why his administration didn’t pursue unresolved scandals from the Reagan-Bush era, such as the Iraqgate secret support for Saddam Hussein’s government and clandestine arms shipments to Iran.

Clinton responds to the questions from the guest, documentary filmmaker Stuart Sender, by saying, in effect, that those historical questions had to take a back seat to Clinton’s domestic agenda and his desire for greater bipartisanship with the Republicans.

Clinton “didn’t feel that it was a good idea to pursue these investigations because he was going to have to work with these people,” Sender told me in an interview. “He was going to try to work with these guys, compromise, build working relationships.”

Clinton’s relatively low regard for the value of truth and accountability is relevant again today because other centrist Democrats are urging their party to give George W. Bush’s administration a similar pass if the Democrats win one or both houses of Congress.

Reporting about a booklet issued by the Progressive Policy Institute, a think tank of the Democratic Leadership Council, the Washington Post wrote, “these centrist Democrats … warned against calls to launch investigations into past administration decisions if Democrats gain control of the House or Senate in the November elections.”

These Democrats also called on the party to reject its “non-interventionist left” wing, which opposed the Iraq War and which wants Bush held accountable for the deceptions that surrounded it.

“Many of us are disturbed by the calls for investigations or even impeachment as the defining vision for our party for what we would do if we get back into office,” said pollster Jeremy Rosner, calling such an approach backward-looking.

Yet, before Democrats endorse the DLC’s don’t-look-back advice, they might want to examine the consequences of Clinton’s decision in 1993-94 to help the Republicans sweep the Reagan-Bush scandals under the rug. Most of what Clinton hoped for – bipartisanship and support for his domestic policies – never materialized.

‘Politicized’ CIA

After winning Election 1992, Clinton also rebuffed appeals from members of the U.S. intelligence community to reverse the Reagan-Bush “politicization” of the CIA’s analytical division by rebuilding the ethos of objective analysis even when it goes against a President’s desires.

Instead, in another accommodating gesture, Clinton gave the CIA director’s job to right-wing Democrat, James Woolsey, who had close ties to the Reagan-Bush administration and especially to its neoconservatives.

One senior Democrat told me Clinton picked Woolsey as a reward to the neocon-leaning editors of the New Republic for backing Clinton in Election 1992.

“I told that the New Republic hadn’t brought them enough votes to win a single precinct,” the senior Democrat said. “But they kept saying that they owed this to the editors of the New Republic.”

During his tenure at the CIA, Woolsey did next to nothing to address the CIA’s “politicization” issue, intelligence analysts said. Woolsey also never gained Clinton’s confidence and – after several CIA scandals – was out of the job by January 1995.

At the time of that White House chat with Stuart Sender, Clinton thought that his see-no-evil approach toward the Reagan-Bush era would give him an edge in fulfilling his campaign promise to “focus like a laser beam” on the economy.

He was taking on other major domestic challenges, too, like cutting the federal deficit and pushing a national health insurance plan developed by First Lady Hillary Clinton.

So for Clinton, learning the truth about controversial deals between the Reagan-Bush crowd and the autocratic governments of Iraq and Iran just wasn’t on the White House radar screen. Clinton also wanted to grant President George H.W. Bush a gracious exit.

“I wanted the country to be more united, not more divided,” Clinton explained in his 2004 memoir, My Life. “President Bush had given decades of service to our country, and I thought we should allow him to retire in peace, leaving the (Iran-Contra) matter between him and his conscience.”

Unexpected Results

Clinton’s generosity to George H.W. Bush and the Republicans, of course, didn’t turn out as he had hoped. Instead of bipartisanship and reciprocity, he was confronted with eight years of unrelenting GOP hostility, attacks on both his programs and his personal reputation.

Later, as tensions grew in the Middle East, the American people and even U.S. policymakers were flying partially blind, denied anything close to the full truth about the history of clandestine relationships between the Reagan-Bush team and hostile nations in the Middle East.

Clinton’s failure to expose that real history also led indirectly to the restoration of Bush Family control of the White House in 2001. Despite George W. Bush’s inexperience as a national leader, he drew support from many Americans who remembered his father’s presidency fondly.

If the full story of George H.W. Bush’s role in secret deals with Iraq and Iran had ever been made public, the Bush Family’s reputation would have been damaged to such a degree that George W. Bush’s candidacy would not have been conceivable.

Not only did Clinton inadvertently clear the way for the Bush restoration, but the Right’s political ascendancy wiped away much of the Clinton legacy, including a balanced federal budget and progress on income inequality. A poorly informed American public also was easily misled on what to do about U.S. relations with Iraq and Iran.

In retrospect, Clinton’s tolerance of Reagan-Bush cover-ups was a lose-lose-lose – the public was denied information it needed to understand dangerous complexities in the Middle East, George W. Bush built his presidential ambitions on the nation’s fuzzy memories of his dad, and Republicans got to enact a conservative agenda.

Clinton’s approach also reflected a lack of appreciation for the importance of truth in a democratic Republic. If the American people are expected to do their part in making sure democracy works, they need to be given at least a chance of being an informed electorate.

Yet, Clinton – and now some pro-Iraq War Democrats – view truth as an expendable trade-off when measured against political tactics or government policies. In reality, accurate information about important events is the lifeblood of democracy.

Though sometimes the truth can hurt, Clinton and the Democrats should understand that covering up the truth can hurt even more. As Clinton’s folly with the Reagan-Bush scandals should have taught, the Democrats may hurt themselves worst of all when helping the Republicans cover up the truth.

Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories in the 1980s for the Associated Press and Newsweek. His latest book, Secrecy & Privilege: Rise of the Bush Dynasty from Watergate to Iraq, can be ordered at secrecyandprivilege.com. It's also available at Amazon.com, as is his 1999 book, Lost History: Contras, Cocaine, the Press & 'Project Truth.'

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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Except Germany and it's leaders were held accountable for their crimes
Well, the ones that didn't off themselves first...

and even with being held accountable, the German people are still asked, "Why didn't you do something?"

Someone will write a book comparing Nazi Germany with Bush America one day - and it will deal with how the people behaved in both cases.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. people want him held accountable but question is whether we have enough support to overwhelm
money interests that backed Bush.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. That's a sad statement
lot of truth in it - but still sad
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-28-06 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
27. like the war in Iraq: majority of American, our troops, and overwhelming majority of Iraqis
want us out--but it's not enough to trump the money interests that want us to stay.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. I Fear That Those Who Voted For The 'Americans' Option Did So With Their Heart And Not Their Heads.
I think whoever voted for that option did so because they want him held accountable so badly as opposed to voting for it based on legitimately believing history will regard it that way. I say that cause with reasonable and practical thinking applied, the conclusion should be easily derived that history will by far lay the onus on Bush.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I'm sure everyone that voted thought they were voting with their heads
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I Didn't Say What I Thought They 'Thought' They Were Voting With. I Said What I Thought They
Edited on Mon Nov-27-06 06:01 PM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
actually had voted with.

Like I said, I think if the emotional/heart aspect was able to be completely taken out of it and objective critical thought used only, anyone would reach the logical conclusion that Bush would be held far more accountable. Unfortunately, however, in real life it is quite difficult for most people to cast aside their emotions and forge decisions based strictly on objectivity, so we end up seeing the results we find here.

Just my opinion. :hi:
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. and I'm still sure everyone thought they voted with their head
and that's just my opinion :)
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Maybe You Missed My Point. I Know They Thought That They Did.
I'm saying that the reality is that they quite simply didn't, or they would've chosen the by far logically correct first choice LOL
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. No, I didn't miss your point
at all :)
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Oh Ok. My Bad Then. I Didn't Realize Your Second Reply Had Been An Irrelevant Redundancy. I Had
instead thought it to be a return argument that would've shown my point had again been missed. Now I see that the point wasn't missed, it was just simply ignored and followed by the irrelevant redundancy. Sorry bout the misunderstanding. :hi:
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. .
Edited on Mon Nov-27-06 06:12 PM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. LMAO
Thank you!!!! I needed the laugh!!
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Not Sure What You're Laughing At Or Why You're Thanking Me,
But then I guess the lack of logic in the reply fits in well with the rest of 'em.
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dicknbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. I think that we will have to hold the public accountable.......
First of all the A holes who voted this amazingly stupid man into the presidency and second those of us who in our hearts KNEW that what we were being feed....WMD Chemicals unmaned planes to deliver poisn to this continent from IRAQ ..yada yada yada....we also must be held accountable for not being willing to take the serious steps that would have involved taking to the streets in serious numbers and shuting down this government before the war started. There would have been hell to pay for doing this and many would have been arrested and may even some would have died but that was the kind of passion and willingness we needed to truly make a point to these people. Now maybe the war would have gone on any way and I 'm sure that it would have but we really didn't make enough of disturbance to stop this or to atleast let those who believed this idiot that there would be hell to pay.

Oh by the way I was listening to another right winged hack who was all gung ho for the war saying that after all it was a Huge mistake and that he really can't see how to resolve the problem and that of course it is ALL GEORGE BUSES fault that things didn't work out as planned.

Any way that's my two cents and I also take the blame for myself here because I was not willing to do the work necessary to stop thes incredibbly sick people from ruining our country. I remember the folks who were calling for thousands of people to go to Iraq and use their bodies as shields agaisnt this atrocity...Some actually went they were heros in my book and they were right!
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Thank you for your response,dicknbush
I think America will be second-guessing itself for years to come - "What if?"

And wondering what more could have been done and should have been done

Well, not everyone in America...I know I will though.
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. America seems to always second guess itself
I haven't voted yet, my inclination is to vote for America, because of what I call the "oops" factor. When I look at what is going on in the world, and where American resources really go, I'm appalled. We seem to want to be very comfortable--and removed, from scenes of horror like what is going on in Darfur. We want a stable export economy, we want cheap import goods--if we're middle class, we want bling if we're not. Or even if we are. Overall society seems superficial, even our churches are wholesale with the whole Mega church trend. We're much more comfortable looking back and discussing things like who REALLY was responsible for ending the cold war. The "Oops" comes in with hindsight, shoulda, coulda woulda. Pick a war--any war. Pick a genocide, any genocide. Pick a government scandal--any scandal. Oops. We did it again. We didn't care enough, didn't do enough, we were divided and conquered by those divisions.

On the other hand, I see those random acts of kindness every day. I don't think that's peculiar to Americans, but it reminds me what's important.

I'm reading Zinn's book right now--almost finished. Very depressing, but I read "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" in 7th grade and it changed my life. I stopped taking anything at face value from that time forward, and began to challenge everything. I still do.

America, even if it was the brain child of wealthy white men protecting wealthy white male interests has the potential to be something, IS something that great things are made of. But it is up to us to make it great. There is an innocence about Americans I think, maybe a naivete is a better word--we vote for a completely unsuitable and inappropriate man for president and don't hold him and his administration accountable. Why? because we wanted to believe in something? Is the truth is too hard, too ugly, for the average American, who wants to believe in a country, wants to be a patriot? Are we suckers as Zinn seems to imply? Is love of country merely manipulation of the few to control the many?

Dunno. But I changed my mind. Today, I'm blaming bush and his entire administation.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I really enjoyed your response!!!
Zinn never caused me to think in terms of people being suckers - more like go in with your eyes wide open kind of thing. This your country. This is it's ugly parts. Zinn gives me hope. The truth I can take - the lies can destroy me.


Thank you!!!!


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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I'll feel better after I've digested the book!
Takes me a few days. I've actually really enjoyed it, and use it as a reference. I tend to get angry, then I get busy.

One time, I read "Ethnic America by Thomas Sowell--never say I didn't take one for the team. THAT book was strange, I think I took a shower afterword. It wasn't so much that he was factually inaccurate, but his take on minority or ethnic growth in America was bizarre.
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
14. The American people and their corrupted elections.
The American people, gifted with such a unique and prosperous country - the greatest democracy in history - and yet unable to remedy the greatest outrage that can befall such a democratic nation - corrupted elections.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Corrupt people behind corrupt elections
Get the corrupt people out of the election process perhaps? might help...

Kinda makes it all look like a sham though doesn't it? corrupt elections do, I mean
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DemonFighterLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
20. No matter what history says
This administration was foisted on us. It doesn't make us look any better but even the ones with some power were chilled by the ruthlessness of the regime. A little anthrax here and a plane down there and the rest just fall in line. Law and order have fallen to the wayside and everyone is waiting for someone else to move first.
Where are the Patrick Henrys of our time? I'd do it, but I would just as soon live out my 30? years in peace and let the world condemn the remainder. We need our elected leaders to represent us for a change and not play go along to get along.
As far as my feelings, I am sickened to the core. My country used to really be something. The election of democrats has already brightened my spirits, but I have doubts that the regime will ever be held accountable.
:dem:
:hide:
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I wish you 30 - plus - years of peace in your life
Thank you!!!
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DemonFighterLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. You too!
Or however many years you have left.
:pals:

gonna get me an undisclosed location and ...

vote dems. every chance I get.
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