Should disabled people be treated the same as, or differently from, everyone else?

[Guaranteed]

That's an awfully simple way of breaching this topic, but it got your attention. Let me refine the above question a bit so it doesn't sound so ignorant:

Probably many of you have seen Carlos Mencia's stand-up special on Comedy Central in which he tells the story about the guy in the wheelchair being put in front of him in line while waiting for a roller coaster. Now, I actually find Mencia, much of the time, to be overtly racist and crude. But the story he tells illustrates a subtle, or not-so-subtle, concept- it can be difficult to treat people both as equals (as in, not feeling overly "sorry" for them, and giving them their proper respect as people) and also as having differences that make them worthy of extra help.

So, the refined question is: Is it possible for one to both not "feel sorry" for a disabled person, and thus respect them as an equal, but also go out of one's way to give them help or privileges not afforded to people without that disability?

Does doing one necessarily exclude doing the other?

[badgerpup]

1. This is a very tough question...

I can tell you what ex-Beloved Sig Other told me...
Due to a birth defect, he uses wheelchair. As a kid, he had a MOUTH on him, and was allowed to get away with all kinds of shit because everyone was uncomfortable about calling him on it because he was "that poor crippled boy".
Finally, when he was in fifth grade, one of his classmates just got tired of it, hauled off and slugged him.
(Pause for OOOOOHH!)
Told me he appreciated that, and respected Sluggo since he was treating him just like any of the other kids, with no regard for his handicap.

Now recent past...
it was difficult knowing how much slack to cut for the fact that if someone is in a wheelchair, LOGISTICS WILL BE DIFFERENT.
Accessibility becomes an issue, and there's some stuff that you just do because the other person cannot.

I just ask anymore...seems to cover most situations.

[pop goes the weasel]

2. where's the conflict?

Look, there may be a reason to put the guy in the wheelchair in front of you. It may have to do with the way the venue is set up, like there being a certain car or seat that has to be used. It may be that, if he has to spend time in line instead of being able to wait at the front and then get in the line, his wheelchair battery will conk out prematurely. It may be that the people the guy in the wheelchair is with are already in line and he had to go through the long way to catch up. If you don't know what people with mobility impairments have to go through to even get to a line, it's time you started to enlarge your circle of friends. Then you would see that pity has nothing to do with it and in fact gets in the way. If you respect people as people, you want them to be included as a matter of course and you find a way to do that. No pity, only respect.

Getting your information about disability from Carlos Mencias is about as worthwhile as getting your information about race from Michael Richards.

[colinmom71]

9. You're actually pretty close to the mark here...

One of the reasons that handicapped access to rides works in (sort of) a "front of the line" manner has to do with crowd control. The exits of most roller coaster stations are distinctly smaller in space than the entrance queues, so the placement of a large wheelchair and/or the disabled patron's party could be a safety issue on high capacity days. It's sometimes more efficient to plan that a few seats be set aside on the ride's next round to reduce crowding at the exit and queue lines so that safety isn't compromised.

But that can depend on the ride's configuration. A lot of older rides present this problem more frequently than newer rides as older rides often have their accessibility ramps double as the ride's exit path. There's often little safe choice but to enter to the exit area for a majority of rides. Newer rides are sometimes built with ADA guidelines in mind and often have an alternative handicapped entrance that allows safe transfer of the rider's wheelchair to the exit area during their ride. But some parks are so accustomed to using the exit as the handicapped entrance that they simply repeat the pattern for the sake of consistency in their disabled accessibility policies.

One of the biggest issues though is that most persons with mobility problems often require assistance onto and out of the rides. Being able to plan ahead on when a disabled patron boards a ride helps the ride operators know when to have a seat(s) open and ready for such assistance, in order to keep the queue line from becoming unduely jammed up. Now, the ride ops often have a generally good idea of how long the queue wait is for their ride and usually let an approximately equivalent amount of time pass before seating disabled patrons. They also often count how many people are lined up in the station house queue and then decide how many circuits a coaster train should pass before seating the assisted passenger so as to be fair as possible to all the park's patrons.

There are even some rides that actually have to be completely stopped in order to seat disabled patrons (such as the Haunted Mansion at Disney), so this planning time for seating disabled rides is often essential for safety reasons. Though to be fair, Disney has a quite interesting accessibility policy that is based on what type of assistance the patron needs versus just having a disabled pass to try to get to the front of the line. (Apparently, people were totally abusing the Special Pass policy at CA's Disneyland and this prompted a tiered and prioritized assistance based policy a few years ago.) Policies vary from park to park, but most do their best to accomodate their disabled patrons' needs with the need to be justly fair to all their patrons as is possible.

I have a child with developmental disabilities and we've had to use the special assistance/disabled pass at a few parks. Most people seemed to understand why but there were one or two memorable instances where some did not. The best one was a guy at a Six Flags asking "how much did we have to pay for those skip the line bracelets?" I had to drag my friend away before she could (rudely and violently) tell him that the price was far higher than any parent would be willing to pay... I won't even address the *7 times* the Disney staff was so kind as to ask the 3 yr. olds in our party on the disabled accessible boat for "It's a Small World" if we wanted to just keep running through the ride since there were no other disabled patrons lined up to ride... I sooo wanted to be all :grr: But my son was having such a great time, I couldn't say no. And I guess that's really just what it's about.... Good memories and experiences for your friends and family despite the difference of disability touching your lives...

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. I am a special ed teacher and there is a saying in my business

Fair is not giving everyone the same thing. Fair is giving everyone what they need.

[SeattleGirl]

6. Well said!

I work with people injured on the job, and some of them need ergonomic equipment, or need their jobs modified (if possible) to fit within the physical limitations they got as a result of their work-related injury. Sometimes, an employer cannot take them back, not because they were hurt (i.e. as a punishment because they got hurt) but because they can no longer perform the essential functions of their jobs. This is very common in the construction industry and other physical demanding jobs.

[Pastiche423]

4. Please explain what you mean, when you ask...

Is it possible for one to both not "feel sorry" for a disabled person, and thus respect them as an equal, but also go out of one's way to give them help or privileges not afforded to people without that disability?


Why would you "feel sorry" for a disabled person? Do you feel superior to a disabled person? Why else pity them?

Go out of one's way to give them help or priviledges not afforded to people w/o that disability?

What privileges do PWDs get? I especially want to know the answer to that.

[Guaranteed]

5. Those are really good questions. What do you think? nt

[Pastiche423]

8. I think I want you to answer them

since you put the questions together 1st.

Again, what "priviledges"?

[ThomCat]

29. I think so too.

What privilages?

I get the "privilage" of being the first one to board an airplane, but I also have to wait until 10 minutes after everyone leaves before I board because it takes that long for them to show up with the wheelchair so I can get out. (I can't walk after the air pressure changes)

I get the "privilage" of moving to the head of the line in some places but that's because I can't physically get through that line otherwise. And to get to that help I have to find someone to ask for assistance, and then wait for it longer than you stood in line.

I get the "privilage" of special seating on busses and trains, but only if I can get to the seat and if people are willing to give it to me. I often have to wait up to an hour as buses or trains go by waiting for one where I can claim that "privilage." My average commute is 45 minutes longer than my coworkers because I need that "privilage" of a seat.

I wonder what privilages I supposedly receive.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guaranteed]

11. These are important questions. I don't understand why you're getting so

angry about them.

It is difficult sometimes to work these kinds of things out in one's mind, but you shouldn't name-call in frustration.

[Pastiche423]

13. In order to answer your questions

I need to understand them 1st.

This is the third time I have asked, What priviledges?

[Guaranteed]

15. To be honest, I'm not sure why you're perseverating on that word. But, since you won't

be satisfied until I answer, alright, I'll give you some privileges (no "d") that we give to disabled people in our society to help them get by:

1) Social Security

2) Preferred seats on common carriers

3) Parking spaces

4) Bringing companion dogs into public places

5) The right to modify leased housing as needed, as long as it is put back the way it was when the lease is over

There are probably others, as well.

[Pastiche423]

17. You call these privileges (no "d") ?

1) Social Security

You do realize, do you not, that in order to receive Social Security Disability Insurance, you must pay into the system?

2) Preferred seats on common carriers

Say what? In twenty years of disability, not once have I ever been offered anything considered "preferred". Instead, I am strapped into a Hannibal type apparatus, then crammed down the aisle of the plane. There I must sit until the flight is over and everyone else is off the plane.

3) Parking spaces

I can't drive. But when I ride w/another PDW, the hash marks to the side of the HP, are needed to lower the lift to be able to get out of, and back into the van.

When I ride w/an able bodied person, I must be careful wheeling through the lot, as I am very short and some drivers can not see me.

4) Bringing companion dogs into public places

Assistant dogs are named that because they are assisting their owners, allowing the owner to be out in public, doing things everyone else does.

5) The right to modify leased housing as needed, as long as it is put back the way it was when the lease is over

How can that be a privilege, when the installation and un-installation is paid for by the disabled person?

Spend one month in my chair (you can not move your legs at all) at home and in public, and I would bet your thoughts on the privileges of being disabled would change drastically.

[ThomCat]

31. That's total B.S.

Social Security is not a privilage, it's a safety net that keeps people alive. And those of us who work full time pay into it just as much as you do.

Preferred seating is hardly a privilage. I've already mentioned here in another post that people rarely ever give up one of those preferred seats. I get a seat when there's one available, and I have to struggle harder than you to get to it.

Parking near a building is given when it's a medical need. You call that a privilage, I call that allowing us out of our homes. Obviously you've never been homebound. A necessity is not a privilage.

Bringing companion dogs is the same situation. It's a necessity, not a privilage.

The right to modify leased housing as needed: Have you ever tried to use this supposed privilage? Do you know how much we pay out of pocket to do this? How is it a privilage when it costs us, and doesn't cost the landlord anything? What are we gaining that is so special?

The more I see what you are writing here the more offensive it is. x(

[Guaranteed]

40. Here is the definition of a "privilege":

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/privilege

"1. A right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most."

That is exactly what every single one of those things I mentioned above are. Their significance was not at issue. But those are rights that other people don't have. You seem to want to impute to me some kind of resentment over them. You're trying to push me into the pidgeonhole you want me to be in by perseverating on one particular, factually correct word in the OP- which is quite typical. Well, I'm not going to allow you to do that.

More importantly, though, you're missing the point I'm trying to raise. You so badly want to be angry at me for raising questions that we should ALL be asking ourselves...

It's a shame.

[ThomCat]

45. It's a damned shame that you're trying to use a dictionary

to avoid responsibility for a thoughtless, offensive post.

Those "privilages" are the right to leave the house and go someplace in public, or the right to use public accomodations. We're not getting anything different that what you're getting. In fact, we often get far less.

That is a shame, and so is your condescending and inflamatory attitude.

[Guaranteed]

48. I'm not saying the disabled are getting a "leg up" on anyone else...

I'm saying that they have, by law, rights that others do not have. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and I didn't say there was, but it is a fact. You and the previous poster wanted to take issue with it, and you're flat-out wrong.

I didn't start a flame war. Some people who don't want to have to think about their ideas walked into this thread wanting to get angry and looking for something to cling to. They didn't want to discuss perspectives on the issue. I did my best to avoid the loaded questions, but they, in fact, attempted to provoke me with name-calling. Even to that, I did not react harshly.

I invite you to join in the productive side of this discussion.

[ThomCat]

49. B.S. There's nothing productive about the flamebate

you posted. If your entire point is that we get access to things differently, then just say that. That's obvious. But you're deliberately adding value-laiden language. Obviously you're concerned about the value of what we get.

Well what about all the Privilages you get as a non-disabled person that we don't get? How about you discuss those?
:eyes:

[Guaranteed]

50. That's not the point at all. I'm not interested in the "privileges" in the freaking least.

That should have been obvious to you by the way I didn't want to talk about them.

I wanted to discuss how our society views the disabled- how we think of them- and how the disabled want to be seen.

[ThomCat]

51. That would have been a good post

but that's not what you said at all.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

54. "Rights that other people don't have."

Because other people don't NEED them. These disabled rights serve to put disabled people on a (roughly, depending) equal footing with everybody else.

[Guaranteed]

61. ......

Yes. That's true.

[Guaranteed]

16. I also wouldn't mind an apology for your name calling,

especially since the answers to your questions were so readily available to anyone who wanted to find them.

[shanti]

14. you originally asked the questions

what prompted them? what are YOUR feelings on this issue?

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. Why not answer the questions?

[REP]

7. Hell, I "Feel Sorry" For Myself Sometimes!

I have an 'invisible' disability; unless you know what to look for and look closely, you may not know I am seriously ill. When people find out what's wrong with me, they often express sympathy or even some sort of sorry - because they like me and wish I didn't have to deal with it. I wish I didn't have to deal with it, and I wish my friends with disabilities didn't have theirs to deal with, either. "Feeling sorry" can sometimes translate into patronizing actions and words, but usually it just means - at least in my experience - a desire I often feel myself.

[XemaSab]

12. It's easy to feel sorry for disabled people

not because I am better than them, but because I'm not, yet I can still go places and do things that they can't through no fault of their own. :shrug:

[Warren DeMontague]

18. I have a close relative with CP. Odds are, she'll never walk.

And you're damn right I "feel sorry" for her. It's a tough fucking row to hoe. My "feeling sorry" for her doesn't mean I don't respect her as an equal; actually, I'm constantly in awe of the optimism and humor with which she greets life.

You're right, though- I'm not aware of any "privileges" People with Disabilities "get".. If one means ramps and bars so they can get from the curb to the sidewalk or use a bathroom, I'd hardly call that a "privilege".


Or maybe Handicapped parking spaces are the "privilege". :shrug:

[ThomCat]

32. According to one of his other posts

yes, handicapped parking spaces are a privilage. And so is the right to install bars in your apartment.
x(

[Sapphocrat]

37. Trying to compute that, Will Robinson.

Somebody actually believes handicapped spaces are a privilege?

Wow, I'd better tell my Mom -- whose invisible disability precludes her from walking more than about 20 feet to the front door of the pharmacy -- that she'd better send her handicapped-parking placard back to the DMV.

*shaking head*

[mentalsolstice]

34. My first reaction to the OP was "I don't want or need your stinkin' pity"

[mr blur]

19. I'm a "Disabled" person.

We don't want pity but we do expect consideration just as everyone else does. For example, I can't "do" stairs; this gives me a problem that most others will never have. The shops where I live will offer to send someone up or down stairs to find something I want to look at. I know that people are told to do this but I feel that most of them would offer to do it anyway.

Imagine being in a wheelchair when, in every shop you enter, the counters are higher than your head. I know that it has to be that way because most people are on their feet but, however kind people are, you inevitable feel "looked down on ". Because of course you are.

I don't usually pass on the bits of waffle that come my way from well-meaning folks but this one makes me :puke: less than most (!):

"If you can keep your head, when all about you
Are patting it as if you were aged two

If you can trust your limbs when others doubt you,
Accept help with good grace, not as your due

If you can be content with your low earnings
Whilst others around you have so much more to spend

If you can learn to conquer normal yearnings,
To "sublimate" and not go round the bend

If you can walk with crowds and keep your balance
Or talk with kings, and not let your speech be slurred

If, when they praise some very minor talents,
You can let your real achievements go unheard

If you can keep your dignity on falling,
Get up to face the stars, and with a smile

If you can bear the welfare worker calling
To tabulate you neatly in a file

If you can face your limitations squarely
Yet keep on striving to the bitter end

You will be more than just disabled
For clearly, you'll be a miracle, my friend!

Anonymous, with apologies to Rudyard Kipling"

[Guaranteed]

21. Thanks for this.

I used to work with people with mental illnesses- bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. It always really impressed me that they had such a hard road to walk in life- but they kept walking. They were very strong.

That's a very touching poem. Many people can probably relate to it- we're all different from what's "normal" in one way or another. Thanks again.

[walldude]

20. Well using the example you gave it's not a matter of privilage

it's a matter of access. My wife has Muscular Distrophy. She can get around a bit but if we are doing a lot of walking she needs a wheelchair. We did the theme park circut last summer for our vacation. You ever try negotiating a ride queue in a wheelchair? Not happening. We usually have to go in through the exit. Parks think ahead about stuff like this and some newer parks are building wider queue's for wheelchair access. Judging by the treatment we recieve when out in places like this I'd say 90% of people are very nice and helpful without being condescending. The other 10? Well, where ever you go and what ever you do 10% of the people you meet are going to be assholes, what can you do. Oh and a hint, if you want to feel sorry for someone feel sorry for the person pushing the wheelchair around all day. ;)

[mr blur]

22. When I visited the US

I wasn't yet in a wheelchair. We took our son round the theme parks. I remember at Universal Studios, an announcement came over the PA, "Please make room for our special friends in wheelchairs to move to the front". I would have cringed to be called a "special friend" by some corporate PA, but it certainly made the day for the kids in wheelchairs who could suddenly see everything.

[Philosoraptor]

24. try it for a year, then ask.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. What Is The Point Of This Thread?

eom

[Sapphocrat]

26. All depends on your P.O.V.

Is it possible for one to both not "feel sorry" for a disabled person, and thus respect them as an equal, but also go out of one's way to give them help or privileges not afforded to people without that disability?

Does doing one necessarily exclude doing the other?

I might feel sorry that a person is in a wheelchair or whatever, but I don't feel sorry for them -- unless they feel sorry for themselves, and then that's what I feel sorry for. Make sense?

I'm not blind to disabilities, but I'm not fixated on the disability above the person. As with everything, I suppose it's all about exposure; having a developmentally-diasbled cousin, having taught developmentally-disabled children to swim, having spent years intimately involved with the Deaf community (which doesn't see deafness as a disability at all), and having spent some time driving a taxi (yes, I've done all the crap jobs) in which half my days were spent getting wheelchairs in and out of the trunk, and taking dialysis patients to the V.A., and cancer patients to Stanford...

I guess it all adds up to a lifetime of seeing people as people, and not "disabled people"... any more than I divide my friends into my "black friends," my "Jewish friends," my "straight friends," etc.

I don't see accommodation as "privilege" at all. I let little kids stand in front of me at parades so they can see, too. I hold doors open for people who have their arms full. I even ask little old ladies if they need help crossing the street (honest). Is that "privileged" treatment? I thought it was just being thoughtful.

[Guaranteed]

42. Do you think it's wrong to feel "sorry for" people?

Do you think there is a difference between that and empathy- putting yourself in their shoes?

Further, what's the difference between being sorry "that" someone is disabled, and being sorry "for" them?

Do you feel sorry for the Iraqi people?

[Sapphocrat]

44. The difference is...

...I don't feel sorry for anyone just because they're disabled. I feel sorry for anyone who feels sorry for himself (disabled or not). At the same time, I wish for their sake that they didn't have to put up with all the crap that comes with being disabled (that's the "sorry 'that' part"). Does that make more sense?

Oh, I think there's a huge difference between that and empathy. I can certainly empathize with gay people (obviously, as I share that experience), but I can't empathize with a gay person who constantly whines, "Oh, woe is me! I'm gay! Everybody hates me, so I'm going to go jump off a bridge!" That's self-pity. I can feel sorry for somebody who suffers self-pity, but I can't empathize with him.

I'm hesitating on the Iraqi question, because I get the feeling I'm being set up. Can you expand on the question (and assuage my suspicion)?

[Guaranteed]

47. If you can only empathize with people who are like you, I'm not sure

what the point of empathy is. Empathy is using your imagination to try understand the place another person comes from, when they're not like you.

As far as your distinction between being sorry "that" and sorry "for," do you think feeling sorry "for" someone is something other than "wishing for their sake that they didn't have to put up with all the crap that comes with being disabled"? Is doing that, what you describe as being sorry "that," respecting- accepting- who a person is?

Are you wishing that they were someone else?

And, finally, as far as the Iraqi people. A set up? No. It's not a set up. You seemed to have a handle on what you thought about feeling sorry for people. I wanted to know if you felt sorry for the Iraqi people. I don't know how else to put it. I suppose you would say that you would only feel sorry for them if they felt sorry for themselves.

[Sapphocrat]

52. OK, I'll expand on "empathy."

By virtue of being an oppressed minority, I empathize with anyone who is a member of an oppressed minority. However, I cannot possibly know what it means to be black, or disabled (yet), or even an atheist (yet). I'd never be so presumptuous as to assume I could -- but I know I can put myself, to a point, in the shoes of others with whom I share the "oppressed-minority" experience.

Go ahead, pick my words apart some more. I'm serious -- I'm rather enjoying being made to explain myself. It's good for me. :)

As far as your distinction between being sorry "that" and sorry "for," do you think you think feeling sorry "for" someone is something other than "wishing for their sake that they didn't have to put up with all the crap that comes with being disabled"?

I think I must not have explained it clearly enough. There's a very clear difference to me:

- "I feel sorry that Joe is disabled" = "I wish that Joe didn't have to deal with access ramps and the stares from ignorant people who think a wheelchair makes Joe less of a human being."

- "I feel sorry for Joe" = "Joe sees himself as less than worthy because he's in a wheelchair / gay / poor / whatever, and that makes me feel sad, because I don't think he should pin his self-worth as a human being on something that has nothing to do with who he is as a person."

Is doing that, what you describe as being sorry "that," respecting- accepting- who a person is?

I'm not sure I understand this part of the question, but I'll try to answer: Respect and acceptance has nothing to do with it. I can respect a person even if I can't accept his beliefs; I can accept a person even if I can't respect his beliefs. The physical (or mental) doesn't enter into it for me.

I think I'm really confused about what you're asking here.

Are you wishing that they were someone else?

No, not at all. As long as we're in these physical vessels, everything about us goes into making up who we are on the inside. And here's where I run the risk of getting too philosophical/spiritual: I subscribe to the school of thought that what we are, who we are, and what we are doing is exactly what we should be and do at any given moment. If my mythical friend Joe had never had the experience of being disabled, then he wouldn't be the person he is. I'd never want to change who he is, or make him anything other than who he already is. Instead, I would rather educate other people -- make other people understand that with Joe, and with anyone, WYSIWYG; that wheelchairs or seizures or anything else comes with the territory, but it is not who Joe is.

In other words, it's not Joe I would want to change.

And, finally, as far as the Iraqi people. A set up? No. It's not a set up. You seemed to have a handle on what you thought about feeling sorry for people. I wanted to know if you felt sorry for the Iraqi people. I don't know how else to put it. I suppose you would say that you would only feel sorry for them if they felt sorry for themselves.

You're good at this. LOL

Seriously: Of course I feel sorry for the Iraqi people -- as I would for anyone in the same position. I suppose I might feel different -- albeit incredulous -- if the Iraqi people all sent a letter to the U.S. thanking us for making them "better people" for the experience of watching their loved ones slaughtered. If someone tells me, "I'm grateful for my suffering because of reasons X, Y, and Z," I may not understand it, but I would be forced to accept their reasoning.

[Guaranteed]

60. I understand your perspective and appreciate it.

Thanks. :)

[ThomCat]

27. As a person with a disability

I can tell you that I rarely get to the front of the line. When I do, it's because I had to come in through a separate entrance, and it's just not possible for me to go through the regular line. I'm on crutches. I can't imagine the situation is different for someone is a chair.

On the other hand, I have to take a crowded subway train twice every day, and I can count a total of 6 times in 11 years that anyone has given up a handicapped seat to me. I have to get on the train, search for an open seat, and try to get there before someone else takes it. If I don't see a seat, or can't get there in time then I have to turn around and fight the crowd to get off that train before the door closes. Otherwise, I'm falling as soon as that train starts moving.

I rarely ever see more than lip service for respect for people with disabilities. But I often hear that we're supposedly getting special rights and privilages.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

55. I'm sorry, Thom.

Anybody who wouldn't give up their seat for you (and were not disabled themselves) is a jerk.

:hug:

[ThomCat]

56. It's most funny and sad when it's someone sitting reading their

bible (which you see a lot on the subway) or someone who clearly just came from working out in the gym.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

57. What train do you take?

I was on the Green Line recently and nearly suffocated in that sardine box.

[ThomCat]

59. That's the one I take.

I take the 4/5 and then transfer to the 6.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

62. Damn, I'm sorry.

[cynatnite]

28. I never feel sorry for the handicapped...

If they need assistance, I give it just like I would for anyone, handicapped or not. It's simple politeness and thinking of others before myself. I'm not going to treat them any less than I want to be treated. Respect, caring and being thoughtful to everyone should be a requirement by all.

[porphyrian]

30. They should have equal rights, but not necessarily equal treatment.

Their differences should be acknowledged, but not treated like their defining quality. And it's important to note that everyone deals with their personal El Guapo differently, so ask the individual what they want you to do, don't treat all of them the same, because they aren't.

[Imagevision]

33. Ask the disabled coming back from Iraq & Nam vets, they have an opinion too!!!

[tpsbmam]

35. Educate yourself.....

I have no intention of slamming you. You've asked valid questions. I both have a disability (MS) that at times has me wheeling and at times has me walking. Each has its own problems. When I walk, I get tired very easily but I also want the exercise. I get dirty looks when I walk and use my (legal) disabled parking pass and I sometimes get stares when I wheel. Oh well. When I walk, everyone fairly assumes I'm 100% okay and they have expectations I can't meet (e.g., telling me to go to a store at the opposite end of the mall). Not their fault, but it's frustrating for me! When I use a cane, I've had people literally kick it out from under me. They don't do it on purpose, but they also don't use any consideration. I've been out with my cane and had people pretty much slam the door in my face -- I'll have one arm full with packages and my cane in my other, and they can't be bothered to hold the door. Well, guess that makes us even -- there are rude people and jackasses no matter who you are, disability or not! But most people are just people and show consideration.

As people have said before me, the things you mentioned aren't privileges. These are things that make it possible for people with disabilities to move through the world, work, shop, go out to a bar, go to a ballgame, etc. And it's still FAR from satisfactory in this country. MANY places remain inaccessible and MANY places that call themselves accessible are talking a lot of BS. I remember my Dad wanting to go to the movies with Mom -- they both loved them. Dad had a debilitating disease near the end of his life and was in a wheelchair. He had to sit either in the front row with his head bent back and neck contorted or in the back row of the theater, where he couldn't see or hear. Some privilege. They finally stopped going, which was sad -- it was one of the few things they could still do together. I was FURIOUS and ready to frigging put up a huge stink and/or sue -- they wouldn't let me. Arrrggghhh!

I worked in hospitals for many years and, though MS forced me to stop working full time, I still do advocacy re: disability issues. One of the things I've done in the past when I worked in hospitals is hijack a bunch of wheelchairs and forced staff (including physicians) and others to get around in them for a day. We'd start at getting around the hospital -- a couple of hospitals I worked in were quite inaccessible (in one, I'd have to wait for someone to open all of the staff area doors for me....nothing was automated in staff areas, except for OR's and a few other areas). Then we'd go to a mall (using the wheelchair 100% of the way), stop at a restaurant (and make them try to get in the bathroom, etc), and so on. We'd do things like stop at pay phones, try to find disability parking with the couple of vans we'd take (too often there are no spots available -- I bet others here can tell you there have been times that they've finally had to give up trying to get to the, e.g., drugstore because they couldn't park and get in/out of the vehicle). I used the drugstore example because that's one that happened to me. I worked full-time and was exhausted full-time. I was having a MS exacerbation and needed to get a couple of prescriptions filled and get home before I collapsed. There were 2 disability parking spaces at the CVS I went to -- one was filled with a legit car, the other was filled with a car with no disability tags/placard. I honked, I did everything -- I finally left and got someone else to get them much later that day. There was no way I could walk even the short distance from other spots that day. Now, does that sound like a privilege?

Try it sometime. There are places you can rent wheelchairs. I really urge folks to try it. You never know when someone you love, or even yourself, will end up where people with disabilities today are. And you'll get it more. You don't change. You still love chocolate ice cream and hate lime sherbet. You still think so-and-so is hot. You have all of the same hopes and dreams everyone else has. They typically have to be modified and sometimes can't be achieved (believe me, if they could I'd still be working!) but most learn to live with it. You put up with a shitload more than people even imagine you do! You learn LOTS about yourself and other people, that's for sure! (Oh, and PS....if you do this....no cheating and standing up to go the to the bathroom! Many people who use wheelchairs can't stand and have to transfer....and if someone has peed on the seat in the only stall accessible to a wheelchair, you get to clean that up. Pet peeve: women who squat in disability stalls, let pee hit the seat, and then just leave it there. Heellllloooooo....I can't squat, so I get to clean up your frigging pee!)

I can't speak for others here, but I'm not wild about the term "disabled person." There's nothing disabled about me as a person. I'm a fully functioning person who has a disability.

I personally don't mind the questions. It's how we learn and how we understand each other. If you're afraid to ask, then you'll start to censor yourself and worry you're going to say the wrong thing. I hate that. Just ask -- some people will get pissed, but not everyone will.

[mentalsolstice]

38. About peeing on the seat

Ladies, sitting is so much more hygienic than squatting. Although I'm mobile, my disability (CP) includes a little bit of incontinence, in that when I need to go, I NEED TO GO, and I don't have time to clean up your mess...and I'm short to boot, so guess what, even when I squat, chances are I'll still come into contact with the seat and the splatters of piss you left on them. So just go on and sit, it's a proven fact you're not likely to catch cooties unless the seat is visibly soiled.

[Gwerlain]

36. Reasonable people...

should make a reasonable effort to accommodate disabled people, and a reasonable effort to respect them as well. I am sorry that there are people who are disabled, I wish it could be otherwise; that in no way diminishes my respect for disabled people. I reserve the right to feel that way, and I own the fact that I do. It is not pity, nor is it "feeling sorry for them."

I think there should be no need for handicapped spots nearest the doors of the supermarket; people should be smart and kind enough that the closest spots would always be free for those who have more trouble getting around. But since there are lazy assholes in the world, we need them, and I'm glad they're there. I don't use them, because I don't need them, and I think people who don't need them and use them anyway are assholes. I think the curbs should all be wheelchair-accessible as a matter of course, as should all the doors, and that the crosswalks should all have annunciators for blind people. Particularly in public places where disabled people need to go just as much as non-disabled people do. I'm willing to pay for it, no less than I'm willing to pay for sidewalks. I see no difference between the two things. It's not a matter of "doing something special for disabled people," it's a matter of accommodating PEOPLE, period. If you don't want to accommodate people, if you think it "costs too much," go do business somewhere else.

Disabled people have problems that make them frustrated, and that can compromise their self-esteem. Being polite, and being kind, help just about everywhere. Non-disabled people can get into the same sorts of binds, and deserve the same sort of politeness and kindness when they do. A little extra latitude can make all the difference. From a reasonable person.

If I offer help to ANYONE, disabled or not, I do so for MY reasons, not for theirs. Anyone is free to accept my help if I offer it, or refuse it, as they see fit, for any reason or no reason, for THEIR reasons, not mine, without judgment from me. I will smile and acknowledge their decision, and move on.

Accordingly, disabled people should not assume that I offer assistance to them because I pity them, or disrespect them; non-disabled people should not either. It's what I do, and I do it for MY reasons, which are not subject to ANYONE's judgment, thank you very much. Keep your assumptions to yourself. Just smile and say "yes" or "no." And move on. I will.

[mentalsolstice]

39. Sigh...At least you're honest with your questions

You've already got plenty of great answers about the "physical" aspects of privileges for disabled persons. I'll give you some answers about the attitudinal aspects. Disabled persons are the last great bastion of ignorant prejudice in this country and more so in the rest of the world. Women, persons of color, gays and lesbians have made wonderful strides to be accepted in our society, yet there is so much left to be done on those fronts. In the case of disabled persons, we're still fighting for the most basic rights, such as to vote, to work, to drive, to go to school, to shop, eat out, go to movies and sporting events, to keep our children in our own homes, to have housing, to marry, have sexual relationships...I can go on and on.

In four years (in the '90s) as an attorney for a state protection and advocacy system, I had cases involving all of the aforementioned situations, and then some. Women, ethnic minorities, and persons of alternative sexual orientation have moved beyond discrimination in many of these areas (but not all), however, for persons with disabilities, we're still experiencing the most basic discrimination. And where we do make strides, many people act like we don't deserve them. I still keep up with the movement, and believe, there are still many mountain to be climbed.

For bigoted and ignorant attitudes, I'll simply point you to the freepers, responding to a decision today by a federal judge who ruled that our paper money system is discriminatory to the visually impaired. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1745386/posts. Their responses a pretty indicative of the basic discrimination we still receive.

Privileges? Hah! Pity? We don't need it! All we need are progressive minded folks to help us fight the good fight.

[loyalsister]

41. Access

The civil rights concept that was introduced with the ADA was access.

Congress acknowledged that in order for people with disabilities to achieve equality, environmental or other adjustments need to be made.
Of course, they still left it up to us to sue for it.

But, the bottom line is that the understanding that environmental and external adjustments are required for us to have equal opportunities has been written into law.

For the most part, most people with disabilities have been able to reach agreement that we should be able to reasonably request accomodations as the law allows while expecting to be treated as equals.

Some have suggested that it has not made it into public consiousness because we did not get the nondisabled people on our side before the ADA was passed.

"No one has ill feelings toward the handicapped" is the conventional wisdom that veils a subtle bigotry that is detectable in words like "privileges."

[Cleita]

43. My feelings about keeping people in the mainstream in

spite of the fact that they may not have the same physical advantages that the rest of us have, is helping them to be able to do what they can do, and giving the means to make up for what they can't do.

Like the person in the wheel chair may not be able to walk, but there are the things that person can do. I think we should give them the means to do it. Sometimes just even helping someone who isn't as tall as everyone else, gives them the means of being able to be productive. It's as simple as a stool often.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

46. Carlos Mencia's thoughts on the handicapped...

are like Michael Richards' thoughts on Affirmative Action.

People in wheelchairs go around the line because it's not just helpful to the person in the wheelchair, but everybody in line behind the person in the wheelchair, and the carnies who need to help the person into the ride.

[Feron]

53. I treat disabled people the same as anyone else..

We all have our limitations and I don't mind giving someone extra assistance if requested. However being the object of pity is the worst feeling in the world.

I'm an Aspie and people treat me normally when I don't tell them. However when I do tell them, they talk to me like I was a child. It's infuriating.


In college I had a friend who happened to be deaf. I only treated her different in that I made sure she was able to read my lips. Now I only felt sorry for her because she felt that being deaf was something awful that needed to be cured. It's sad that some people internalize the message that being different is bad.


So just treat disabled/different people the way you would treat anyone else. If a person using a wheelchair is served better with a pass to the front, then I don't have a problem with it.

If a disabled person is an asshole, call him one. :)

[midnight]

58. I like that idea of repecting them as an equal, and also

going out of one's way to give them help not afforde to people without disabilities.