Secret prisons: Sign of a vibrant democracy or a declining empire

[NNN0LHI]

[The2ndWheel]

1. An empire that finally gets it?

If we didn't have secret prisons(which I'm guessing have been around for decades anyway), that would be a declining empire.

Yes, we'll fall, like all other empires, but we've still got something left to give.

[RaleighNCDUer]

2. The secret prisons have NOT been around for decades.

Admittedly, the CIA or other intel agencies may have illegally held persons at various times in our past, but there is a big difference between a secret prison and a guy tied to a chair in a safe house.

The first step to not be an empire in decline is to stop acting like an empire. Why do we have 700 military bases across the world? Does ANY other nation do that? Even the soviet union, at its height, had but a handful of foreign bases (excluding, of couse, the member states of eastern europe). We could, as easily, have treaty agreements to use foreign facilities as needed - why maintain a half-dozen air bases in England when, for a minimal rent, we could hold the facility for quick deployment from the states?

Our bases have but one purpose - to project US military power into other countries and intimidate potential enemies. Well, the paradigm has changed. Are we intimidating N Korea? Iran? Anyone at all?

I am anything but an isolationist - and I believe that if our first level of engagement with the world is through our military, THAT is what isolates us. We could increase our diplomatic presence tenfold worldwide for the cost of maintaining a single army base in Germany.

We are not an empire. We are a nation among equal nations. We need to conduct ourselves accordingly.

That means, no secret prisons.

[The2ndWheel]

3. Except

"but there is a big difference between a secret prison and a guy tied to a chair in a safe house."

to that guy.

"We are not an empire. We are a nation among equal nations. We need to conduct ourselves accordingly."

:rofl:

[RaleighNCDUer]

4. You want to expand on that?

I'm having a little difficulty translating :rofl: .

Do you think the US actually IS inherently superior?

Are you posting in the right place?

[The2ndWheel]

6. You said we're not an empire

We're equal among nations. That's what I had a chuckle about.

Obviously the US isn't superior. We don't even actually exist. Not to mention there wouldn't even be an America without the fundamental building blocks of empire. We were built on empire, sustained by empire, exploded culturally and economically by empire, and we will continue to be an empire until we no longer have the energy required to hold off entropy.

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. No. We are NOT an empire.

We are a democratic republic, being currently led by people who believe we SHOULD be an empire.

What are these "fundamental building blocks of empire" you're talking about? All you are saying is we're here because we're here because we're here.

What foreign territories do we rule? What nations pay us tribute? Some arab nations may think that israel is our proxy state, but if that were true they would not piss us off as regularly as they do. Even the soviet union was more empire than we are - we cannot draft citizens from occupied nations to fight in our wars, as they did.

And, democratically speaking, we are just one among equals internationally. Perhaps first among equals, because of our economic strength, but as we are overtaken by newer, stronger economies that will change without changing the integrity of the nation. We will still have but one vote in the UN, and that vote counts for no more than does Costa Rica's.

[The2ndWheel]

9. "being currently led by people who believe we SHOULD be an empire"

Yeah, currently.

"What are these "fundamental building blocks of empire" you're talking about? All you are saying is we're here because we're here because we're here."

Well America is here because of being in the right place at the right time geographically and in terms of climate.

As for the building blocks; slavery, genocide, expansion of territory. If not for those things, America would not be.

We were founded by an empire. We fought against an empire in Britain, and then took over when Britain eventually faded.

"What foreign territories do we rule? What nations pay us tribute? Some arab nations may think that israel is our proxy state, but if that were true they would not piss us off as regularly as they do. Even the soviet union was more empire than we are - we cannot draft citizens from occupied nations to fight in our wars, as they did."

What is Third World debt?

You don't get to compete on a global level with the Soviet Union by not being an expanding center of power yourself. You don't beat Germany and Japan in WW2 by not being a massive expanding state yourself. You don't go beyond your borders(which only stopped expanding thanks to the Pacific Ocean) against Spain by going to the Philippines without being an empire.

"And, democratically speaking, we are just one among equals internationally. Perhaps first among equals, because of our economic strength, but as we are overtaken by newer, stronger economies that will change without changing the integrity of the nation. We will still have but one vote in the UN, and that vote counts for no more than does Costa Rica's."

1. US
2. UN
3. Everyone else

Our vote doesn't count more than Costa Rica's? Maybe in our democratic ideal dreamworld, but that's not how nation-states work.

The only reason anyone listens to anything the UN says is because of its police force, the US military. That's why we spend so much goddamn money on it. Without it, the global economy wouldn't work. Europe wouldn't be the paradise that it is, with all their social programs. That tax money would go directly to the military, to secure their individual interests, if the US military hadn't made the world have the same interests. We're all at the mercy of global trade organizations. Those have the backing of the global police force. We have total air superiority. There isn't a navy that can touch the US. No state military could do a thing to us. We control space. America isn't alone in this empire. We bring in all other nations into this empire. It's not only a military empire. It's cultural, economic, social, etc. Borders are slowly disappearing. There won't be an "America" eventually. Maybe in name only, for control purposes.

If we're not an empire, what the hell is an empire? We still benefit from slavery today. Our expansion is no longer on land, since there are no new worlds to find. Our's is an expansion of thought. If the entire world thinks the same way we do, profit before life, what is that? No more genocide, since that would be stupid economically. The more people, the better the odds you can find someone more desperate than the next guy and exploit them.

If the US isn't an empire, than there has never been an empire.

[Abuhans]

10. We are a democratic republic

If a democracy elects imperialists like those we have now, isn't it both an empire and a democracy? Do Puerto Rico, Hawaii, and Alaska qualify us as an official empire? How about our unofficial domination and subjugation of so many other countries? How are popular elections and empire incompatible? Did we lose democratic status during our imperial ventures in the Phillipines?

[bryant69]

5. How can they be secret when we all know about them?

Just out of curiousity?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[NNN0LHI]

8. They were secret for years before we found out about them n/t