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Has Wes Clark addressed his role at Waco?

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BIG Sean Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:01 PM
Original message
Has Wes Clark addressed his role at Waco?
Edited on Wed Nov-29-06 08:08 PM by BIG Sean
I like Mr. Clark very much, but I don't know if he ever publicly spoke of his role in Waco.

(Edited to fix wording)

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BelleCarolinaPeridot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Do tell.
Because I did not about his role at Waco.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. I didn't know they served rolls at Waco
What kind were they?

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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. I think they were the Pillsbury cresecent rolls
I could be wrong about that, though.
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BIG Sean Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Ok, I spelled a word wrong...get over it...........(NT)
Ok, I spelled a word wrong...get over it...........(NT)
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. It was nothing personal we just like to have a little fun sometimes
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Caution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. Care to provide more information for those of us who have no clue?
I had no idea Wesley Clark had anything to do with the incident at Waco.
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Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. He had no role in Waco to discuss.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. I would reckon it's been hashed out here ad nauseum in the past
Do a find in the archives for Clark and Waco. If there's something to be said, it's likely been said.
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Anakin Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. Wesley Was a Branch Davidian?
:) I had to be silly.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Clark has some splanin to do
I might have a hard time voting for him if he plans on making David Koresh his Chief of Staff

:rofl:
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. He had no role in Waco.
This is a canard that the right wing started floating during the 2004 primaries in an attempt to swiftboat Clark. The FBI borrowed some equipment from an Army division he was commanding, but he was not involved in any planning or execution of the Waco seige. This lie was debunked by none other than (Republican) Senator John Danforth. Please don't spread right-wing lies about a good Democrat.
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BIG Sean Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Thank you very much...
I was asking because I didn't know.
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MyNameGoesHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
40. Sean
where is Alan?
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BIG Sean Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #40
56. Alan?
Sorry, I don't know who you mean.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. Colmes.
He was at the Spahn Ranch with Wes.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. A bit more on that...
http://www.realchange.org/clark.htm

There are lots of allegations on the Internet -- though not really in any reputable publication -- that Wesley Clark was involved in the raid of David Koresh's cult compound in Waco, Texas, which ended in a catastrophic fire that killed 75 cult members. (4 federal ATF agents had been killed by the cult, and 16 wounded, at the start of the standoff.)

The raid was carried out by FBI agents, but it has been established that Texas Governor Anne Richards consulted with a military official at Fort Hood, Texas (where Clark was stationed at the time), that 2 military officials from Fort Hood met with Attorney General Janet Reno's staff in Washington before the raid, and the Fort Hood provided military equipment including tanks and Bradley Fighting Vehicles to the FBI raiders. This much is pretty well documented fact.

A link to Clark is not. For one thing, the people alleging such links are pretty much all conspiracy types falling into one of three categories: liberal anti-war types, conservative conspiracy types, and Serbian-Americans stilled pissed over Kosovo.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #11
51. Okay, then ....
has he explained his role as a member of the Manson Family? Just asking.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #51
58. I think he tried to claim that e and Squeaky Fromme
were "just friends" and he had nothing to do with the attempted Ford assassination.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. Do you think that
Sen Clinton's explanation that she only stabbed the victims after they were dead will hurt her in the primaries?
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. Well, no, of course not.
It'll only be immoral and vicious Democrats voting in the primary anyway. Most of them wouldn't probly care if she stabbed them while they were alive, at least if they're poor little white fundamentalist babies.

Sorry it took so long to continue this fascinating discussion, but the neighbor showed up to help me fix my tractor right after I posted.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Googled Wes Clark and Branch Davidian and got this 2003 date
For an article in CounterPunch....


September 18, 2003

The Fire Last Time
Wesley Clark and Waco
By ALEXANDER COCKBURN
and JEFFREY ST. CLAIR


The story by those authors is theirs. I'm saying nothing about its truth. I am only pointing out that there was an earlier date.

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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Counterpunch never liked Clark, so it doesn't surprise me
Edited on Wed Nov-29-06 08:19 PM by ocelot
that they'd started trashing him even before 2004. Cockburn falls into the category of anti-military, pro-Serbian Clark-haters, and Counterpunch is no more credible than Newsmax or FreeRepublic on this issue. As I mentioned before, the claim has long since been debunked.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
9. Let's look at it like this:
It is very likely that someone ordered Clark to supply the equipment to the Waco siege. Now, of course, when such information gets into the greasy hands of people like Joe Farah and his verminous ilk, you can soon expect that the story becomes "Wes Clark dines on Barbecued Child at Waco".

Which was their intent with this story.

I doubt that Gen. Clark acted on his own in deploying men and material.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
15. ***Sigh***
What source did you obtain that information from?
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BIG Sean Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Hi...I have no source....here is what happened.
Edited on Wed Nov-29-06 08:20 PM by BIG Sean
Hi,

Here is what happened. At work I said that I really like Mr Clark. That I've read everything on his pac website, and I enjoy watching him on TV, that I would at this point really support him for President in 2008.

Well, when I said this, I was jumped on by a fellow Lib saying that he was involved in Waco. I had never heard this, so I googled it and there was a TON of mentions on websites.

So I came here for more information.

Looks like I am going to get jumped on again.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Not jumpin' on ya.
But please educate your fellow Lib: Clark had NO, repeat, NO involvement in Waco beyond the fact that his army division let the FBI borrow some equipment they asked for. That's it. Period.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. I'll second that. I don't want to jump on anyone.
Edited on Wed Nov-29-06 08:36 PM by Tatiana
Thanks much for your informative post above, ocelot.

My only point is that we should do some research and look for the facts (as Randi loves to say) before we make assumptions or draw conclusions. Repeating false accusations usually results in the "swiftboating" of candidates supportive of our own values and interests.

It would be interesting to know the source of the suggestion that Clark was involved with Waco. I find it very interesting that something from 3 or 4 years ago is making the rounds again - coinciding with Clark's recent musings on an earlier start to a possible Presidential run.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Well, I think it's the title of your OP.
It seems to assume that he actually had a role, which he didn't.

Take it from one who has learned the hard way, titles can make or break a thread, not to mention set you on fire.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Don't sweat it. (And check this link for all you may want to know about Clark)
Edited on Wed Nov-29-06 08:42 PM by ConsAreLiars
It is common practice, and one familiar to most who read DU, for disrupters to post RW lies as questions. If you read through the thread titles for any one day you'll usually find a few that state as fact some tidbit from some disinformation operation. The Clark/Waco one was a frequent feature here when he ran in 2004. The usual pattern for real disrupters is to either vanish from the discussion, once the lie becomes a hot topic, or to stick around and throw more gasoline on fire.

Post #11 and some others were "on topic" and gave the info you asked for.

Check this thread (scroll about 1/3 down for Waco) for much more information about Clark: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=235x2168

(edit title to refer to the link)
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BIG Sean Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Thanks for the link...
I will read through it.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
18. Even if Wes clark had commanded a division
of troops that blew the shit out of the Wackos compound, I wouldn't give a shit.

But he didn't.

And neither did the FBI.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
21. Wes Clark served as top sniper at Waco in charge of picking off children & stray kittens
Edited on Wed Nov-29-06 08:27 PM by Bucky
After a brief googling, I found a couple of citations on his "role" at Waco. It looks pretty concocted, with cryptic insinuations and the type of journalism that looked up the names of all the people who died during the first crack epidemic in Little Rock and concluded that Bill Clinton must be the brains behind the Cali cartel. One source reads....

Clark tanks used in Waco siege

Editor's note: WorldNetDaily is pleased to have a content-sharing agreement with Insight magazine, the bold Washington publication not afraid to ruffle establishment feathers. Subscribe to Insight at WorldNetDaily's online store and save 71 percent off the cover price.

By Kelly Patricia O Meara
© 2003 News World Communications Inc.

Retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark wants to be president and, given that he is a man who has worn many hats during his controversial rise through the ranks, many believe this qualifies him for the top political job.
But serious questions abound about his actions as commander of the 1st Cavalry Division of the Army's III Corps at Fort Hood, Texas, in 1993.

Clark has worn the hat of first-in-his-class graduate of West Point, Rhodes scholar, decorated Vietnam combat veteran, White House fellow, four-star general and even Supreme Commander of NATO – a post from which he was relieved.

There is one hat, though, that despite
lingering suspicions and accusations Clark neither has confirmed nor denied wearing – a hat that many Americans might find very disturbing for a military man seeking the top civilian post in the U.S. government without first registering with either political party or being so much as elected dog catcher.

In his recently published book Winning Modern Wars, Clark proclaims that the "American way was not to rely on coercion and hard pressure but on persuasion and shared vision," which has been taken by Democratic Party doves to explain why the retired general has been an outspoken critic of President George W. Bush's handling of the war in Iraq. But while Clark may prefer a "kinder, gentler" persuasion in dealing with U.S. enemies abroad,
critics are saying his actions at home should be reviewed before deciding whether he is qualified to be trusted with America's civil liberties.

For example, there is the
1993 siege of David Koresh's Mount Carmel (Oh thank God, the foreplay is over with) commune in Waco, Texas, where four law-enforcement officers were killed and nearly 90 civilians – men, women and children – massacred by being shot and/or burned alive. Those seeking an investigation of his part in the Waco outrage say that Clark not only played a hidden role(!!) in the military-style assault on the Branch Davidians, but easily could have refused to participate in what was a clear violation of the Posse Comitatus Act that bars use of the U.S. military for civilian law-enforcement activities.

Although Clark never publicly has discussed his role in the attack on the Branch Davidians and did not respond to Insight's requests for an interview to discuss his role at Waco, there are indisputable facts that confirm he had knowledge of the grim plans to bring the standoff to an end.

Between August 1992 and April 1994, Clark was commander of the 1st Cavalry Division of the Army's III Corps at Fort Hood, Texas. According to a report by the U.S. Department of the Treasury, the list of military personnel and equipment used at Waco included: 15 active-duty military personnel, 13 Texas National Guard personnel, nine Bradley fighting vehicles, five combat-engineer vehicles, one tank-retrieval vehicle and two M1A1 Abrams tanks. Additionally, Fort Hood reportedly was used for much of the training for the bloody attack on the Davidians and their children.

Based on the fact that military equipment from Fort Hood was used in the siege and that training was provided there, say critics, it is clear the commanding officer of the 1st Cavalry had direct knowledge of the attack and, more likely than not, was involved in the tactical planning.

West Point graduate Joseph Mehrten Jr. (who?) tells Insight that, "Clark
had to have knowledge about the plan because there is no way anyone could have gotten combat vehicles off that base without his OK. The M1A1 Abrams armor is classified 'Secret,' and maybe even 'Top Secret,' and if it was deployed as muscle for something like Waco there would have been National Firearms Act weapons issues. Each of these M1A1 Abrams vehicles is armed with a 125-millimeter cannon, a 50-caliber machine gun and two 30-caliber machine guns, which are all very heavily controlled items, requiring controls much like a chain of legal custody. It is of critical importance that such vehicles could not have been moved for use at Waco without Clark's knowledge."

"This is something that the general staff would know in the daily situation report or manning reports. Clark would have known and, given his obsession for micromanagement, there is probably someone who can place him on the scene. He wouldn't have been able to resist going in. At the very least there is no way he didn't have knowledge," Mehrten continues.

So what if the general was aware that his military equipment was being used against American civilians, and so what if he even participated in the planning? Wasn't he just following orders from above?

"To follow that order," explains Mehrten, "is to follow a blatantly illegal order of a kind every West Point officer knows is a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act. Clark's obligation was to say, 'No, I'm not going to do it.' Look, Clark went to the same institution I did and at West Point we had extensive instruction in military ethics and issues concerning how one avoids obeying an illegal military order. It is drilled into our heads from the earliest days as cadets that the 'I-was-just-following-orders' defense isn't necessarily a good one."

He had the juice to say no, concludes Mehrten, "and he could have and should have. But if he had done so he probably wouldn't have gotten his next star. There is a reason critics say this man was not recommended by the military for that fourth star but got it anyway because of political clout, just as there is a reason that Chief of Staff Hugh Shelton brought him home early from Europe because of 'character and integrity issues.' Sure the Bradley vehicle could have been operated by a civilian, but that's unlikely. This military equipment is very specialized and would be virtually useless in the hands of untrained operators. But just using military equipment against civilians is running way afoul of Posse Comitatus. Legally, if he were involved in it and there were active-duty units where these armored vehicles came from, then it is a clear violation of the act. Clark's command at the time, 1st Cavalry, is an active-duty federal division and it is my understanding that these vehicles used at Waco were from Fort Hood – his command."

Tom Fitton, president of the Washington-based Judicial Watch, believes Clark has some questions to answer.

"The question for Clark," explains Finton, "is a fair one in terms of corruption. Many Americans still are troubled by what occurred at Waco, and we're very interested in his role. Many people are going to ask what are his views of the force {attorney general} Janet Reno used at Waco and they'll want to know if he, were he to become president of the United States, would authorize that kind of force again. Specifically, was Gen. Clark comfortable allowing forces and equipment under his command to participate in a police raid or, at best, a hostage situation? People are going to want to know these things."

Michael McNulty, an investigative journalist and Oscar nominee for his documentary, Waco: The Rules of Engagement, tells Insight that, "From the standpoint of what went on that operation had military fingerprints all over it. The chain of command being what it is,
Clark had some responsibility, but to what degree we really don't know."

McNulty takes a deep breath and then says, "My military sources tell me that Clark and his second in command got the communication from then-governor of Texas Ann Richards, who wanted help with Waco.
At that point Clark or {Gen. Peter J.} Schoomaker should have asked themselves, 'Religious community? Civilians, they want our tanks?' and hung up the phone. Clark had to be involved at the tactical level, he had to know what the tactical plan was and he'd have to approve it. No one has ever asked these questions of this man. Clark wasn't even asked to testify before the congressional committee investigating the circumstances of Waco. For me the real question is one of character and, because of the cover-up that's gone on with Waco, it could even be a question of criminality. From the get-go, when the assignment came down from III Corps, which is the primary Army unit at Fort Hood and his division, Wesley Clark had the opportunity to say 'Hey, wait a minute folks, we're not gonna give tanks and personnel to the FBI to use on civilians!'"

True, explains McNulty, "Clark didn't do this in a vacuum.
Whatever he did he at least is guilty of being a good German – following orders. He was in a position to put his foot down and say no. It was his men, his equipment and his command. Everything that happened at Waco, from the beginning, the U.S. military was involved – including the strategic and tactical planning that went on from Feb. 29 to April 19. Why weren't the guys making the decisions debriefed and questioned by the committee? I would hope that Clark would answer these questions now, the sooner the better, because it appears that Waco is about to follow him into the political arena full force."


Somewhat fails the sniff test.
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. Joseph Mehrten
Joseph Mehrten—only he is a spokesman for the eleven John Birch Society camps scattered across the country. Here the camp song is the Battle Hymn of the Republic, swimming races are meant to be won, and authority is still in vogue. "If you are late for a class, you get clean-up duties," says Mehrten. http://jcgi.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,916335,00.html



Joseph Mehrten Jr., a graduate of West Point, draws on his personal experience in a way that suggests where it all has gone wrong. Mehrten complains about what he regards as a failure of loyalty by the higher command and says this is reflected not only in "the general frustrations of being unable to keep talented people, but also in not having the necessary tools to do our jobs." He fulfilled his five-year commitment to the Army after graduation and then moved as a captain into a reserve unit - not because he didn't want to serve his country but, to the contrary, because of the environment in which he was expected to serve.

. . . However, it is the growing mandate for the military to be politically correct that Mehrten says is the chief cause of declining morale and unreadiness. He says personnel are being forced to attend classes to make them sensitive and caring in place of field training, and he thinks that is likely to get some good people killed.

"By the time we got down to training days, we had maybe one day every other month when I could actually train my platoon on what I knew they needed to know," Mehrten says with a cadence that is all military. www.rense.com/general5/morale.htm
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #21
43. Snarf!
:rofl:
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
23. No role in Waco
but he still loves the SOA.
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smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Plus, I hear his middle name is Hussein /nt
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. Wesley K. Clark. But the K actually stands for "Koresh"... or "Kitten-killa"
:hide:
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bluedogyellowdog Donating Member (338 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
28. Clark had no role
Edited on Wed Nov-29-06 09:04 PM by bluedogyellowdog
I will say up front that I was angered at the way the Waco incident was handled. It was one of a series of several things that radicalized me somewhat during the late 80s and early 90s - most of them, except for Waco, originating in the first Bush administration and Reagan's second term. I saw all the controversial Waco documentaries. Still have a couple of them on DVD.

I'm not convinced that Clark had any role in Waco at all. That was an unfounded swiftboating attempt spread by the right during the 2004 elections.

Even though Janet Reno took a lot of flak over Waco, I've become convinced that she wasn't in the wrong either, wasn't part of any coverup, in fact she was lied to and believed she was taking the right stand early on, and took steps to make amends once it became clear to her several years later that there were things that happened that she was not aware of. The FBI and ATF did cover up facts surrounding Waco. There is an excellent scene in the movie "Waco: A New Relevation" with footage from one of the later Waco hearings that I believe totally vindicates Reno.

The righties used Waco to launch a broad-brushed attack on Clinton, Reno, and many others. I believe the righties getting involved delayed any serious inquiries into Waco for years. It wasn't until after the two serious documentary films (Waco: the Rules of Engagement and Waco: A New Revelation) came out that Congress reopened the Waco hearings and finally got to the bottom of things. In sum I believe it was the righties who used Waco as an excuse to demagogue the entire Clinton administration who are largely to blame for justice not being served. The ACLU and mainstream/liberal religious community and other liberal voices did raise opposition to how Waco was handled, but their voices were drowned out by the righties attacking the Clinton administration, and then by the actions of the mass murdering sicko Timothy McVeigh - hence, for a long time if Waco was mentioned, a lot of people just rolled their eyes.

Waco uncovered a lot of long-term structural problems and attitudes within the FBI and ATF, and with the militarization of police forces in general. I believe Wes Clark and Janet Reno would be among the first to say this, and to take steps to ensure that something like Waco would never happen again. I have no such faith in the righties to do likewise - the actions of the Bush administration are proof.
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Rageneau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
29. People forget that Waco was a BUSH operation.
The planning for the raid on the Davidian compound was conducted under Bush One. The raid itself took place only a month or so after Clinton's inauguration -- before Reno came aboard, and had obviously been in the planning for a long time.

I believed from the first day of the raid that the reason behind it was budgetary. That is to say, that the ATF and related agencies -- afraid that the Clinton Administration would tighten their future pursestrings -- went out of their way to stage a big, high-profile, SWAT-like raid that would be televised nationwide (which is why they tipped the media off) and would make them look so valiant and intrepid and macho and anti-crime that they would be able to demand increased funding from Congress, regardless of what the Clinton liberals had in mind.

As I see it, the plan was to use the successful Waco raid as a fund-raising tool. Had it worked out as they thought, it would have been referred to over and over again by the spooks themselves and their wingnut groupies as an excuse to invest even MORE money into jackbooted thuggery.

When it all went sour, it was those same people (and the MSM) who successfully shifted the blame to Reno and Clinton.
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. People forget that David Koresh
was a freaking whack job. . . HE bears responsibility for the debacle. And the ijut people who "followed him" bear it as well.

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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. It's not a capital crime to be a nutcase...
nor is it a capital crime to live in a commune owned by one.

Before you write a blank check to the State to allow tanks, helicopters, and Rambo tactics to be used indiscriminately against "nutcases," you might want to consider that there are those in power who consider DU'ers "nutcases" as well.

Nutcases or not, those Seventh Day Adventists were still covered by the Fourth Amendment--and IIRC, the infants and young children who were inadvertently crushed to death in the gymnasium when the tanks brought it down didn't volunteer to be part of the group.

Waco was an example of how the right thing can be done in a very, very wrong way. The authorities could have asked Koresh to come down to the local sheriff's office to answer a couple questions, like local law enforcement had successfully done before. Instead, they staged a Rambo-esque assault for the TV cameras in order to prop up their budget. They could have raided the commune on a day when the children were at school and most of the parents were at work (the original plan), but somebody got sloppy when the warrant was filled out, and somebody was too lazy to get it corrected. Once the initial raid turned Keystone Kops and the FBI took over, they could have negotiated in good faith with the people inside instead of stalling them during the day (the negotiators weren't even allowed to authorize chicken feed--literally) and playing the screams of dying rabbits over loudspeakers at night.

Waco was an example of what can happen when a swaggering authority figure gets out of control, and forgets his legal restraints. And yes, Bush the Elder should bear most of the responsibility, since it was the BUSH administration who promoted Larry Potts (the guy responsible for the Ruby Ridge debacle) so he could later repeat those same screwups at Waco.
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. He was a nutcase with a bunch of guns who was
willing to die and kill for his delusions.

Can you say Jim Jones with guns?

Granted it could have been handled "better" - but the fault lies squarely with Koresh and his deluded followers who were willing to kill their own children for a guy who thought he was "god".
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #38
49. "It could have been handled better"
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 09:25 AM by benEzra
Granted it could have been handled "better" - but the fault lies squarely with Koresh and his deluded followers who were willing to kill their own children for a guy who thought he was "god".

"It could have been handled better"--the thing is, when the government screws up and gets dozens of people killed due to official egos, screwups, and illegal violations of established procedure, it is NOT a defense to the government to say that "b-b-but the people who died were idiots/nutcases, so they had it coming."

It's not about the nutcases who were killed; it's about making sure the executive branch of our elected government is NOT ABOVE THE LAW.

Bush the Younger says that "Iraq could have been handled better, but the fault lies squarely with Saddam Hussein and his deluded followers." Does that let Bush off the hook for the way the war was mismanaged? The shooting of the 88-year-old Atlanta woman in her own home a few days ago when police apparently raided the wrong house "could have been handled better"; does the fact that she (legally) owned a gun excuse the fact that the police kicked in her door, shot her to death, and lied about it? Decades ago, people could have also said that "My Lai could have been handled better, but the fault lies squarely with the Viet Cong." The thing is, the Viet Cong didn't precipitate that incident, and the Seventh Day Adventist commune in Waco didn't precipitate the Waco confrontation, either. The authorities did.

Of course Waco could have been handled better. That is the point--it SHOULD have been handled better. The way it was handled involved multiple federal felonies by the officials involved--at the operational level, not necessarily in Washington--and those officials were never held accountable for those crimes. They should have been.
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #49
63. some points
I agree with - in general - but not on Waco.

I think they DID precipitate it. He wanted it to end that way. He prepared for it. He goaded it. He orchestrated it. And the ninny goats let him lead them willingly to the slaughter.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #37
65. It's a capital crime to murder police officers.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #31
39. Amen. nt
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. timeline
On February 28, 1993, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) raided Mount Carmel.

Janet Reno was nominated by President Bill Clinton on February 11, 1993 and confirmed on March 11.

The 51-day siege of Mount Carmel ended when U.S Attorney General Janet Reno approved recommendations of veteran FBI officials to proceed with a final assault in which the Branch Davidians were to be removed from their building by force. In the course of the assault, the church building caught fire. The cause of the fire was later determined by the Danforth Report, a report commissioned by The Special Counsel, to be the deliberate actions of some of the Branch Davidians inside the building.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #29
45. i have never understood the right position and outrage with waco
i am not a cop defender but i have watched and read much on this subject and i do not fault authorities. i am pissed at koresh. i do put responsibility on koresh. i have looked at this from several angles and i cannot see how responsibility can be shifted any other way. every step of the way it was koresh decisions that led to the horrible and disgusting and outrageous conclusion of that day. i thought the govt had extraordinary restraint more so than i have ever seen, giving this group opportunity for things to turn out differently. while we can monday quarter back all we want saying all atf had to do is call him in, or get him in town, or or or... going out to his place and serving warrant IS the procedure past present and future and they opened fired on the agents. that set the stage. i dont (on this occassion) think police were inconsiderate of consequence
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. The officials running both the ATF and FBI operations
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 09:34 AM by benEzra
staged a Rambo-style raid for the TV cameras on a weekend, when they knew the children would be home instead of at school. They committed multiple felonies during the operation, lied to get military hardware on-scene in violation of Federal law, ran the subsequent standoff like a cross between Dr. Strangelove and the Keystone Kops, and then during the final conflagration, took idiotic actions that caused the deaths of a lot of people (including children) who were trying to live. And then destroyed evidence to cover up their screwups.

The fact that Koresh was a nutjob doesn't excuse the crimes that were committed in going after him. THAT is why people who care about civil liberties--NOT right-wingers--should IMHO be concerned about the Waco case.

FWIW, the FBI official largely responsible for the Waco screwup (Larry Potts, IIRC) was the SAME GUY responsible for the Ruby Ridge screwup, in which an innocent woman was shot in the face by an FBI sniper; Potts wrote the illegal ROE's that led to her death. Bush the Elder's administration promoted Potts after Ruby Ridge--which raises questions of its own--which is why he was able to do what he did at Waco.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #50
55. i have not found the conclusions you state. i am going to explore the
internet a bit more on this, but this is not the information i have found. and at this point not agreeing with you.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #55
60. One of the more thorough sources I've found
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 10:26 AM by benEzra
on the topic is The Ashes of Waco, by a journalist whose name I don't recall at the moment. IIRC, he wasn't a right-winger, but I may be wrong.

There is a lot of crap out there about Waco (paranoid tinfoil hat stuff), so you do have to take things with a grain of salt. But I think the balanced view is that it was a major screwup.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
34. No jumping on YOU, but you can see how your thread fucked-over a DEM, right? n/t
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BIG Sean Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. I honestly didn't mean it to...
When I googled it, and saw all of the hits that came up, I figured that there had to be more to the story and came here for the truth.
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maine_raptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. And you got it!
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 08:04 AM by maine_raptor
Welcome to DU, BTW. :hi:

I don't think anybody was jumpin' on ya, BIG Sean. Actually it was good that you posted the question. This is sure to come up in the next 18 months as a Freeper Talking Point (FTP) and it's good to get it out now.

PS: Loved that "Clark was a sniper" title, Bucky owes me a keyboard.

Edit: to add name of prior poster.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. You may want to try to fine-tune those subject lines.
"What was Wes Clark's involvement in Waco, if any" sound more like an honest request for information.

Your SL sounds like the kindling for a flame war.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #34
44. NO. I don't see how asking an honest question,
to wade through statements made by others, fucks over anybody. When DEMS can't ask questions or look for further information about potential candidates without being attacked for non-loyalty, then the Democratic Party no longer represents Democratic values.

There are a number of DEMS that are considering entering the race for the '08 Democratic Party nomination. Those DEMS are going to be questioned, criticized, and campaigned against by those who oppose their nomination. If you can't handle the questioning of a DEM, how the hell are you going to handle the primary season when it is in full bloom?

Here's a news flash for ya: a campaign is a campaign. The DEMS campaigning for one DEM will be perfectly happy to fuck over the DEMS opposing their candidate of choice. You're going to see DEMS attacking/bashing/fucking over other DEMS in every other thread here at DU when the primaries get going.
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BikeWriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. Then you go tell Free Republic not to make a big deal out of it!
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. I can't think of any reason why I would
ever visit Free Republic, or engage them in conversation. It's not like they really want substantial discussion, is it? I don't troll their site. Why the hell should I think that what they make a big deal of is significant?
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BikeWriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. One reason is because they plaster crap like this all over...
the internet(s) and it can bite your ass later.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #52
64. Lies only have as much power as we're willing to give them. n/t
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
42. Can't we contain this swarm bait to GDP?
Sheesh!
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BikeWriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
46. Uh, Swift boating Clark now?
:shrug:
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
53. fuck that noise BIG
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wishlist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
54. If Clark decides to run he will be 'swiftboated' over this issue and others
If he runs, Clark needs to quickly and loudly debunk rumors that he masterminded the tactics used in Waco and bears responsibility, as well as some of the other RW rumors that will rear their ugly heads.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #54
62. this one is easy though. General Boykin actually ADVISED on Waco
General Boykin is the racist GOP asshole.

That little fact should shut up the GOP.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
61. The Bigot GOP Suck Up General Boykin ADVISED The FBI On Waco
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 10:45 AM by cryingshame
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wakemeupwhenitsover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
67. I'm going to lock this
since the OP is no longer with us.

best,
wakemeupwhenitsover
DU Moderator
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