I've reached a disappointing conclusion about DU in the last few weeks.

[Exiled in America]

First, this is not intended to be flame bait. Because I don't want it to be flame bait I'm going to attempt to choose my words extremely carefully. That might cause my post to be a little long, but I'll try to avoid that.

Second, you should know I've been around DU in some fashion for I think about four years, perhaps more. No I'm not a ban jumper or person guilty of some other insidious behavior. The administrators of the site know my entire history and have used gracious and more-than-fair discretion in their continuing tolerance of little ol' me.

I mention that I've been around for years because my current post count does not reflect that. I say a lot less and read a lot more than I used to in the old days. Lately though, I've found that when I do make posts my tone is increasingly more frustrated and shrill. This is why that is:

I am extremely frustrated by the content of the biggest discussion forums hosted on DU. And quite frankly I'm a little embarrassed to think that these discussions would be any kind of cross section of the people in American who make up the Democratic Party. Over the last weeks and months, I've endured huge, colossal flame war threads about whether its ok for people to breast feed in public, whether all cars should require breathalizer tests to start, whether human beings have an intrinsic right to kill animals, whether parents are ok in spanking their kids, how bad of a racist is michael richards, and on and on.

Now, I understand that in some of these instances, the issues themselves have importance - but not comparative importance to issues absolutely critical to any hope of future social or economic justice or equality in America, which I almost never see as threads while these other topics dominate the boards.

When it isn't some of these what I'm not ashamed to label "lesser" topics dominating the boards, it is an almost solid wall of 2008 gossip and infighting. Virtually none of the posts about candidates for 2008 do anything which will affect the outcome in 2008 in anyway. Virtually none of them are based on any solid facts or evidence that won't be completely changed by the landscape as it gets close to an actual election cycle. It is almost purely gossip and people with passionate feelings about one candidate trying to "beat" the passionate defenders of another candidate.

Virtually none of the threads about 2008 candidates (especially the 15 billionth "who would you like to see run in '08" poll thread) have any redeeming value in my opinion. And where we are, after winning control of the house and the senate and it still feels like we are utterly unable to focus a majority of our attention on the issues that most critically matter to the future of this country.

I cannot believe that this democratic underground cannot find a way possible to have significant thread discussion devoted to emphasis on human needs and what human needs priorities should take precedence in a democratic congress.

Raising the minimum wage and indexing it is critical to the future of this country. So is rolling back tax breaks for the ultra-wealthy and (in particular) the ludicrous tax breaks afforded to US-based corporations. How many of you knew (and my source on this is a Government Accounting Office and IRS report) that in 2004 sixty-one percent of US-based corporations paid ZERO taxes? And attacking this colossal inequity that is catastrophically hurting the working class somehow isn't a regularly occurring topic on the main forums DU? What in God's name does that say about us?

Adequate funding for social services is equally as critical, and the situation currently is pretty dire. Some of the most serious historical harms to this country have come in the form of the exploitation of labor and the elimination of strong labor protections in favor of a state of corporate welfare. And please listen to this opinion: it is the unchecked, unbridled rise of corporations that have transformed America into an Oligarchical Corporatocracy that are the ROOT behind the war and violence on the GOP agenda. It is the root behind the notion of preemptive empire-building. And how many threads are devoted to discussing it, or researching it, or talking about the best ways for the people to fight it, or how to develop direct action to counter it? Let's just say in between all the other fluffy threads, its hard to find a lot.

You know the one force destroying more of the world faster than our agressive and violent forieng policy? It's the unexamined and largely unopposed doctrine of "Globalization" in the form of neo-liberalism as an economic philosophy and Corporatocracy as the benefactors. The IMF, World Bank function like the mob, and rape developing countries into the ground and insure that they will never - ever - be able to pay their way out of debt while constantly demanding more and more of their basic infrastructure, goods, and very life blood of their nations be privatized to western-european businesses for export and sale for profit they will never see.

There is next to nothing on DU about any of that, or how our government actively, aggressively pushes that agenda, nor how our own Corporatocracy at home fuels the decimation of developing countries around the globe, thus creating much of their own violence and devastation. We never talk about that.

Education isn't even a national priority right now, but I sure wish we here at DU were committed to making it one, and I wish that the topics and threads in the major forums would reflect that more often it reflected threads about whether or not cows were people to. Health Care has taken a back seat to everything else, even though health care in America is an absolute embarrassment and disgrace and millions of people and their families still cannot get access to the adequate health care they need in what is supposedly the richest and most powerful country in the history of the world. But there are no threads talking about what organizations are moving to change this, or what people are speaking out about it, or what the best ideas should be, or what kinds of opportunities there are to get involved in these fights.

- Labor rights (including wage, protections, conditions, and regulation of industry)
- Tackling the Corporate Oligarchy which has turned our country into a militant imperalistic hegemony machine instead of the beautiful ideal on which this country was founded
- Combating an unjust globalization model
- Putting as much emphasis on Education as we do on Defense
- Reasserting the need for universal health care options so that no one will ever be without adequate medical coverage

Every single one of these issues takes precedence over the bulk of what gets posted on DU every single day. And I don't just think we should "talk" philosophically about these issues more than we do, though I do think that. I think we should also be posting breaking news coming out of the organizations that are actively working hard to deal with these issues. Organizations like the Coalition on Human Needs, or the Global Exchange, PROCLAD or Corporation Watch - the list goes on and on.

What I'm complaining about it is an emphasis or focus that seems utterly ridiculous to me considering the number of serious and absolutely critical issues there are to deal with right now. And it pains me quite a bit that I can't see at least as many topics and posts devoted to these issues as I can about whether a guy should be allowed to smoke inside his own single person apartment or not.

That's really hard for me to take. So, I'll try to do my part. I have a lot of cool news and information on a lot of these fronts thanks to the organizations I am a part of, and I intended to start posting them a lot more frequently. Usually what happens when I do that is they immediately fall right off the first page, because no one cares about them as much as they care about the next crazy thing Michael Richard's said, but oh well...

[Kiouni]

1. You seem to have

figured out how to solve your own dilemma, by posting more frequently. Please select a certain group to post in and just read those posts instead of reading the newest threads. And link the articles to your journal, people flag journals and read them later, this would be helpful. sorry for your frustration but there are different lounges for a reason.

[NVMojo]

3. WTF?

[Kiouni]

17. see #14

[liberaldemocrat7]

114. You complain rightly about corporatism.

If you want to do something about corporatism then you must get everyone that you can to join you in one of the biggest efforts to pressure the companies that give money to economic conservative congressmen and demand that the CEOS of these companies to get the congress to pass a progressive agenda or you will never buy from them again. When the 100,000th person contacts these companies you will hear a big thunderclap.

That will appear the sound of corporatism breaking in two pieces.

Everything you need to pressure conservatives to pass a progressive agenda in congress appears at this web site.

http://www.dmocrats.org

Also to prevent the Republicans from using the filibuster and the veto go to http://www.opensecrets.org and look up the name Mitch McConnell. Call his contributors and tell them WE WILL NOT BUY FROM YOU ever again until you get your CEO to convince Mitch McConnell not to use the filibuster and George W Bush not to use the veto on progressive legislation.

[Kellyiswise]

202. As you say, DU is a cross-section of America and it is a true indication of what

is important to Americans from the middle-class on up. People whose main issues are how to get enough food to feed a familiy after the re-packaging gimmicks put on them by the corporate food industry, and people who really are faced with weather to buy medicne, food, or gasoline don't have time or the inclination to be posting on the DU or anywhere else for that matter.

[undergroundpanther]

2. It frustrates me too

I put up stuff about poverty about the corporations, mental health issues,corruption, the way the oligarchs want to force people into debt, the inequality,labor issues, human rights, and a host of other little discussed but oh so touchy topics and too often it sinks like a stone.If you look at which forums get the most posts and which get the least you can see the priorities of DU right there. Poverty gets a low post count as does disability,feminism, and other core issues more Dem's need to pay attention to.

[Exiled in America]

8. I have this impression that it simply isn't yet socially comfortable to talk about

It seems to me that the issues you have listed and the issues I have mentioned, while ultimately (I believe) being more at the root of all our ills that many other things, has really yet to become comfortably "mainstream" enough to facilitate more consistent attention. But that is a real shame. And if it isn't quickly corrected, America is finished.

[angry_chuck]

19. hey I like that

I feel the same way. Try to post something relevant with grave foreshadowing, no recs or views; post some shitty video clip of repugs crying to a song after the election, thousands of both. WTF? is America so embroiled in consumerism that we are going to allow ourselves to self destruct over wedge issues and fluff/filler? W T F seriously. Conventional wisdom and "mainstream" thinking is the simpleton theology that led us astray in the first place. Solutions to complex problems require complex solutions. Boo Hoo! So we have to work hard to solve our problems and the beast which we confront is not a pretty one. Do we then tuck tail and run? Run back to our creature comforts provided us by the true masters of our nation? I find no solace there. We shall be in the minority no longer. The tipping point is at hand. To restore our own ability to act in an informed, willful manner, we must accept that we are the ones actively submitting to the influence of others. Do not bequeath unto Caesar what belongs rightfully to all peoples; relinquish not your liberty to Babylon. You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. Seek the truth; question those who claim to know it. The only thing I know is that I know Bush is fucking us all, hard. Other than that, I know nothing.

[femrap]

186. I hate corporations and their greediness....

and corporate welfare disgusts me. But when this is discussed, it takes only a couple of minutes before I hear: "What are you? A pinko commie?" And that is why I think people are reluctant/afraid to bring up the subject.

I think we are getting very close to capitalism destroying itself. This house of cards (debt) is ready to collapse. Then I bet we'll find all kinds of people who will want to discuss how the Corporations have screwed us.

Thanks for bringing up this topic...

I have been hoping that after the first of the year and the Democrats are in control of Congress that DU would become more serious and issue/legislative interested.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[info being]

4. See my problem with DU...

...is people telling everybody else what should or shouldn't be acceptable to talk about...trying to get everybody in lock-step. So we are each annoyed by different things it seems. But nobody is forcing you to read things that don't interest you. Why are you suggesting that others don't have the freedom to write these things? Seems a bit backwards.

[Exiled in America]

9. I don't think it is backwards at all.

Of course everyone is free to post whatever they want. And other people are free to comment on their impression of the value and quality of what is posted.

I guess it depends a little bit on what purpose you see DU as having. For me, I would like for it to be more than just a casual place to kill time and post whatever. I would like it to be a place with a little more focus into the issues that I think will make or break the future of America. It seems to me that the more time we spend focusing on those things, the more good it does all of us.

However, if one views DU more as a cathartic place to come and relax and casually discuss whatever with about the same seriousness that we might discuss last weeks football game, then yes it would be "annoying" for some people to attempt to put pressure on the community to focus on specific issues and give them more attention.

Either way though, simply trying to persuade people that other issues deserve more focus is not taking anyone's freedom away. I too am free to talk about the kind of DU I would like to see, and you're free of course to agree or disagree, read or ignore, or do whatever you like. Just because I have a point of view, doesn't mean that I will get my way I and I know that. But that doesn't mean I can't talk about what I would like to see.

[ClintonTyree]

38. Perhaps it's because we know there's nothing we can do about it.

That posting and discussing "serious" subjects will accomplish nothing. Most of us are aware of the subjects that you consider important and share your concern. We're also intelligent enough to know that posting and discussing these "important" subjects on a web-site accomplishes nothing. Zilch. Nada. Words without action are meaningless.

People have been banging their heads against walls for decades trying to answer the "important" questions and we aren't one inch closer to answering them now than we were then. Of course we know about them, and most of us have been trying for years to find solutions to our country's greatest problems but posting them on a discussion board and "seriously" discussing them isn't going to do a damned bit of good. Until there's a wholesale change in peoples' attitudes nationwide these issues will continue to haunt us.

Start your own blog where only "serious" issues are allowed to be discussed at great length. Then, a year later, come back and let us know all that you've accomplished through your serious discussion. I'd be interested in knowing. If the trend at DU happens to be a direction you're not content with then I suggest that YOU do something about it (remember, actions vs. words) and stop whining about what you think DU should be in contrast to what DU actually is.

Sorry if this comes across a bit harsh, but I don't see DU as a solution to anything. I see it merely as a sounding board for everyone to get things off their chests, a place where like-minded individuals can commiserate about the astounding stupidity in our nation and the world.

Of course, that's just my opinion. You have your opinion and I have mine and we're discussing it on DU. Now, do you honestly think this serious discussion we've had will have changed anything? :) Peace.

[info being]

58. I agree with you to some extent...

...but we should not discount the value of thought itself...."Being" itself. To change our minds is to change reality, because it is inevitable that humans shape reality. "Action" isn't something that can be so easily measured and quantified...but perhaps consists of everything big and small thing we do every day of our lives. If a place like DU has opened our minds, it will change the course of our everyday lives and; thus, it will have "accomplished" something. Every word you say, every gesture you make, is action.

My opinion is that we seriously need to stop believing in the lie that we all have some grand mission to do something big which will change the course of history. Perhaps that is the biggest American cancer.

[truedelphi]

130. Oh PLE-EAZE! Serious discussion IS changing things. If U don't

believe that,then think about the state of the electronic voting equipment and all the other election related issues.

I'm on DU today because one day in Late Oct 04, when I was upset about how few people even KNEW about the election fairness issues, Andy Stephenson pointed me to DU.

The people on DU involved in those issues not only discuss, they strategize. They post information, they offer alerts - I was able to tell an entire County of people about the fact that absentee ballots often require more postage than the average person would think to attach.

Just for the encouragement factor alone, DU has done a great deal for this one issue.

Discussion can equal (information plus encouragement) can equal change.

[NVMojo]

5. Stories of importance that are posted on LBN sink to the bottom with little

to no discussion. Bizarre news that leads to fights seems to be what everyone wants at times, so I know what you are trying to say. Thanks for having the courage to post this and try to get us focused on the real issues. Earlier tonight, as I was driving home from work I was thinking about DU and wondering if it wasn't time to drop away from it. I'm glad I read your post.

[joeunderdog]

183. I essentially asked the same question as the OP earlier this week

When can we start a Pissing contest Forum?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2806913

Time to stop being petty and realize that we have an opportunity with the recent election results. We can't afford to bicker and we can't afford NOT to constructively debate.

[jannyk]

6. Bravo. K&R nt

[Dr.Phool]

7. And what exactly does this have to do with

The front page news about Paris Hilton and Britney Spears?

I understand what you're saying. I used to do a few posts on single payer healthcare (H.R. 676), and like you say, it slips right off the front page, without a response or comment. And if I see one more poll on who should be our nominee in 2008 before July, I'm going to trash my monitor.

People tend to worry more about Obama's middle name, than exactly what Giuliani's actual record was as Mayor, or his corrupt activities before and after 9-11, and how best to blow him out of the water.

It does get frustrating sometimes. It seems like it's getting worse lately.

[AZBlue]

122. "if I see one more poll on who should be our nominee in 2008 before July..."

I was going to put them on ignore - but then I realized I'd have no threads left to read on DU! It's insane!!

[keopeli]

10. Peace, friend. It's liable to get worse before it gets better.

Thank you for your post. I agree generally with your observations. I truly look forward to reading your upcoming posts and yearn for more enlightened conversation here at DU. I'm sorry for your frustrations. I believe it's a price we at DU have had to pay as we progress from obscurity to relevance. Still, I am happy for our recent successes and still turn to my friends at DU for inspiration.

Thanks, again.

[katsy]

11. My family are victims of outsourcing, and I'd read your journal.

I'm not knowledgable enough to start threads or even start a journal but the pain people who have become victims of globalization is very real and serious to me.

I can only speak for myself, but I do read every post about the issues you write about. When I hit reply, there's no way I can type the scream that comes from the depth of my heart.

Most of all... I have little faith that most Democrats would pass meaningful legislation addressing the issues you set forth. Why would the have alls want a highly educated, engaged, productive middle class? Forget the repubics. Who will champion the working class with substantial and meaningful change in the course of globalization? Will the Democrats ease some minor pains and carry on with this destructive and unconstitutional course? Was bushco* correct to say that the Constitution was only a piece of paper because it sure seems that globalization is going to render it obsolete.

And this is no tin-foil theory being presented, but even if we had a Democratic champion... would they be allowed to live? Sorry I had to throw that in.

Short of a revolution, and I do believe a revolution is the only thing that can stop this, which among our Democratic leaders would champion a major reversal of course?

Don't get too frustated with the dialogue in DU and don't avoid sharing your knowledge and info... sometimes it's easier to talk shit than face the pain, the approaching trainwreck that you won't be able to avoid.

[selfdestructive]

12. amen

this person speaks such truth.

[katsy]

32. Welcome to DU selfdestructive!

... and thanks.

[meganmonkey]

31. I fear you are right, katsy

I hope to hell you are wrong, but I understand what you are saying and I feel the same thing about the parties, and how neither of them has any reason to jeopardize the status quo - why would they when it is working out so well for the people in power and the extremely wealthy (often one and the same)?

Thank you for being so honest - I think you speak for many here who are hesitant to say things like this out loud.

Peace!

[katsy]

37. There's no way around it Megan.

This is a class war and until average people feel good about who they are and confident about what they really can accomplish, nothing will change. Every time someone brings up poverty, the have alls scream "class war" and we've been cowered into equating the middle and poor classes with our own failure. It's not. It's the rape of the masses by corporate and government have alls.

They have no interest in America. When they've raped and plundered this country they'll turn to India and do the same to them and then move on. Everything is about money to them... their money that is. There's no interest on their part in the health of any nation. Nothing personal on their part.

Until people hit rock bottom, nothing will change except we'll be thrown a bone here and there. We better start embracing our class status and start electing our own at the local level.

[HughBeaumont]

60. In the meantime, you can read mine.

Some stuff on offshoring.

[katsy]

140. I just did!

Thanks Hugh.

"When an economist can come up with a benevolent model that truly lifts ALL boats, then I'll start listening and believing them. Until then, I just see them as puppet defenders of the Republican agenda who's sole M.O. is to drown the middle class in favor of a low-paid and forever fearful populace that the elites are "destined" to rule over."

amen to that.

I'm going back to re read your journal now.

[info being]

61. See that's just it...we all have our own realities and own screams inside...

The day we all agree on what is an "important issue" is the day my *individual* existance becomes meaningless.

[JudyM]

83. Even if your scream can't be transcribed, you can always just do a K&R to keep the post afloat. n/t

[katsy]

141. Always...

I always k&r a thread on these issues. These issues are important to all of us.

[Exiled in America]

142. Thank you for your post!

I think you are very right on so many points. All we can do I guess is keep up the good fight.

[katsy]

160. A good fight, yes...

Maybe you can get an outsourcing/corporate forum where we can all meet!

[femrap]

189. I believe there are a few Dems who really do

care for the working class...Sherrod Brown, our new Senator from Ohio.

He has fought consistently against the Free Trade Agreements....and the war. I think he is an ally.

[tkmorris]

13. Well, let's see..........

I started reading your post almost committed to giving you a hard time. So many of the criticisms of DU are just so silly and arrogant in their conception that it gets tiring refuting them.

However, you are right. I have seen DU evolve from the place it was in those first months of existence to what it is now and the changes you mention are dead on the money. I love this place though, and I try to cope with it as best I can because there is still no place like it anywhere on the internet.

You have to understand that as the sheer numbers of DU'ers has grown, this forum has evolved as well. I would bet that if someone had told Skinner there would ever be a desire for a cooking forum here, say back in March 2001 he would have laughed until he cried. Now not only does it exist, it is thriving.

Back then DU was primarily a place for very dedicated activists, political junkies, and such. It seems to me that as the years have gone by this site has become a home for a much more wide spectrum of Democrats. The GD forum used to be the primary place of discussion for most of topics you mention, pretty much anything important that was not latest breaking news. Now it has become more of the office water cooler, the place where people ask breathlessly if you saw Survivor last night and can you BELIEVE what that woman was WEARING?

This sort of change was inevitable. Many more people are here, and they spend much more of their time here. They want to discuss politics and political philosophy yes, but they also want to just shoot the breeze. People used to go elsewhere to do that, now DU has become all they need.

Sorry, I'm repeating myself, and repeating what you already know. What's the solution? I'm not certain though I can tell you I do look forward to your future posts on the topics you mentioned; those are discussions I'd like to have. I think also it might help to create a new sub-forum here (yeah, I know there seem to be too many already) where such conversations can take place without getting pushed off the front page in 20 minutes under a flood of "latest gossip" type posts. I envisioned GD: Politics being something like that, at least in between election cycles, but instead it has turned into American Gladiator, My Candidate Versus Yours. There IS no "between" election cycles there. Gore has been out of politics since just before DU was born, but not a day goes by in GDP that doesn't have a post trying to draft him for another presidential run there. Not that I don't like the idea, but......

Anyway, post your stuff. Some of us will respond. Try not to get discouraged by the lightweight threads, quality takes more time to discuss and to think about.

[Eurobabe]

93. to the OP, DU is a FORUM, if you want heavy duty

insightful stuff, go over to KOS. They won't let you post a journal there unless your page is of a certain length, see they have Diary Nazis!

While I appreciate the gravity of some of the hard core political geeks there, my eyes glaze over after awhile. Skinner has been nice enough to provide us with an ignore thread box. I use mine freely. You can use yours too.

DU is big melting pot, I came over here from Smirking Chimp because people were just so dogmatic and full of themselves. Love it or leave it, if you can. I couldn't.

[Exiled in America]

144. That's fair - its like I said in an earlier response: I guess it depends on what you want...

..from DU. So someone who responds to my post by saying you know that's nice and all, but that's not really what I'm looking for in a DU community - can't argue with that. People are certainly entitled to have different "goals" / expectations for this place.

For me though, its hard to see so many thousands of people of (relatively) similar minds gathered together in the same space and not want to try to accomplish some significant work around the most serious of issues with that resource.

[Patiod]

135. Arent' the fluffy type messages limited to the Lounge?

I don't see Survivor discussions on GD....

Also, I often read what I think of as the "Thom Hartmann" posts on income disparity, health care, globalization, outsourcing, etc., but rarely have much to add. They're great posts, but because they don't stir argument, they don't get a lot of replies.

[bling bling]

14. Sorry about your disappointment.

Thanks for sharing your position on the matter. Brace yourself for some cheeky responses, tho.

Surely there are others who want to have similar conversations as you. Maybe they tend towards posting in the more narrowly focused forums such as in a DU Group. Maybe they left DU for other sites that offer a more activist oriented environment.

I tend to appreciate the discussions that provide me the opportunity to learn something new or those that offer information I can use to help me form my own opinion on something. I see those threads here occassionally and they are highly rewarding.

I suppose the rest of the drivel that you find on the major forums serves a purpose too, if only for the people who participate in those discussions. I generally can't keep up with all the posts flying around here. It's madness. I offer my .02 in maybe half a dozen threads per week and that's about all I can manage and yet I feel like I'm here all the time. I have no idea how some people can have like 25,000 posts after just being here a year or two. That blows my mind. But people like that probably use DU more recreationally more often than someone like you who is looking for a more serious politically-focused dialog.

There's no way you'll get your wish. I kind of think you already knew that. There are ways to hang out here and just focus on those discussions that suit your preference, though it will take some management and the use of the hide thread button. Personally, I wish more people would bother to check their facts before they go running their mouths here like a bunch of dumb-dumbs. Especially when their errant information is being used to attack a Democratic representative. Man that bugs the hell out of me. But I'm sure I won't get my wish either. My only option is to use the ignore feature for those people but after awhile I can't stand that either.

Good luck.

[angry_chuck]

15. I think this is the 'allegory' for you

The Cave, you know, Socrates...

Virtuous people are rare. Few people want to be led out of the cave, or are capable of the difficult ascent.

I have often mistaken confusion for fear. Fear is much more powerful.

I am often dismayed at the selection of threads and their relevance as compared to other more prescient issues (rove/bush=goebbels/hitler anyone?).

DU is a start. Discourse and meaningful, informed debate are requisite to a democracy. It is hard to find the righteous path when the fog is so thick.

Every attempt we make at regaining authority over our actions is met with an even greater effort to usurp it.

In an informed and free society the best ideas and most important issues will come to the forefront as a process of the free market of ideas.

It is through the subversion and corruption of this process that the MSM and their corporate paymasters render meaningful discourse mute.

"We respond automatically, unconsciously, and often toward our own further disempowerment. The less we are satisfied by our decisions, the more easily manipulated we become." - Rushkoff

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be."- Thomas Jefferson

[betherenow]

55. Excellent post. Thanks. EOM

nt

[ncrainbowgrrl]

124. Welcome to DU, betherenow!

:hi:

[atommom]

73. The Cave is a powerful allegory, and I think it really applies here. nt

[OzarkDem]

91. Good post, very apropos n/t

[nolabels]

118. I think of that allegory much

And D.U. is the symbolic cave for some including me. We come here for many reasons yet know our ability to solve problems by being here is limited. This is a place to apply salve to fragile psyches

It being quite human nature you understand. Much better to endure the threat of the shadows with groups one can identify and make humor with than to endure the cold hard facts of the way things actually are.

In that way we are no different than many we try to denounce

I am not making a blanket statement that all people here are like that but just making the point from my years hanging here that's what i get out of it.

[Exiled in America]

146. Thanks for the thoughtful response.

As a person with a degree in philosophy, your speaking my language well. :) I appreciate the points you make.

[angry_chuck]

162. I majored in Philo

but the state budget shortfall (did iraq cost that much?) accelerated the board's push for tuition deregulation. I remember the terminology like it was yesterday, "...tuition increase will marginalize lower income students." The cave is safe but the chains of ignorance are unbearable.

Great topic BTW

[Faux pas]

16. I've been guilty of responding to some of the 'fluff' posts myself.

But some days it seems as though that's all there is here. I don't like the idea that DU seems to be turning into some kids play time message board myself.

Amen and Bravo, k'd and r'd. Thanks.

[RiverStone]

18. DU reflects many colors and moods! And "shoulds" don't fly....

Well, I've only been on DU for a few months; but I find the diversity of posts (from grave and serious to light and absurd) to simply be a reflection of the complex nature of being human. I mean, we are people first and foremost....and somewhere in the mix we share a passion for our DEM party and a collective disdain for BushCo. I find it all refreshing and educational and frustrating; but mostly fun. The moderators, on balance, seem to do a great job.

You said:

"And where we are, after winning control of the house and the senate and it still feels like we are utterly unable to focus a majority of our attention on the issues that most critically matter to the future of this country."

* * *

Ah, and who among us "decides" what issues most critically matter? Remember how we dissed Bush for being the "decider"? I understand your frustration, but I think its like trying to herd a pack of cats (Democratic cats anyway). Can't be done.


You also said:

"And I don't just think we should "talk" philosophically about these issues more than we do, though I do think that. I think we should also be posting breaking news coming out of the organizations that are actively working hard to deal with these issues."

* * *

You did raise a multitude of important issues, many of which I've seen on DU; though ya can't "should" people. Not on DU or anywhere and expect them to hear you.

Sounds like Exiled, you have lots to contribute - though maybe DU is no longer the best fit for ya? I assume there are hundreds of other DEM blogs out there. But what do I know; this is the ONLY place I've ever blogged.

Thanks for sharing.

[Exiled in America]

147. I don't agree that "shoulds" don't fly, though perhaps you're right in this context

In fact, I think that is part of the problem. The argument that there can never be an appropriate expectation of a social "ought" is really problematic, and is quite possibly one of the biggest reasons we find ourselves in so much trouble today.

And besides that, the claim that "shoulds" don't fly never holds up to scrutiny. You won't find too many people for example, who have a problem saying we shouldn't torture people - which is just an inverse way of saying what we "should" do. This issue is always about whether or not we have an appropriate sense of social "shoulds" or whether they are illegitimate.

I'm totally receptive if your argument is that in this particular situation, I don't have any appropriate foundation for saying anything at DU "should" be a certain way. I can respect that. In fact you're probably 100% right about that. Probably nothing that happens at DU ever falls into any category of a moral imperative. I simply would prefer things to be a certain way because I think it has the most broad benefits. But that doesn't mean its a "should."

But I think we (heh) *should* be really careful that we don't falsely exaggerate the idea that there are no right ideas, and that we can never speak about broader issues in society and say "this is right and this is wrong." That kind of vacuousness is what puts us in the terrible predicament we are in today.

[MADem]

20. All you can do is pick, choose and refuse

There's that Hide Thread option, too...handy for the ten-thousandth TomKat thread, or the fourth page of some other foolishness that everyone wants to start a thread on, rather than contribute to an existing discussion.

I've put up articles on not necessarily weighty, but newsworthy and perhaps slightly challenging topics and watched them sink without a single response. What's that saying about leading a horse to water?

Every so often you throw something against the wall and it sticks. And every so often you find a worthwhile discussion point in an existing thread. But sometimes, ya don't.

Ya can't take it personally. It's the internets, after all...all sorts of crap, good and bad, running through the tubes!!!

[CrispyQ]

98. And this is one of the more frustrating things:

"...or the fourth page of some other foolishness that everyone wants to start a thread on, rather than contribute to an existing discussion."

There's a search feature. I wish more DUers would use it before posting a new topic. I think many topics have some great responses, but they are spread out over 12 threads & missed.

To the OP, I feel your frustration. One of the reasons the non-fiction book club dissovled was lack of discussion & participation at any real depth on most of the titles. People would post "I read the book & it was good," or "Everyone should read this book." Duh. That's not exactly the kind of input one is looking for in a book discussion.

Years ago I had a boss tell me that you had to go through ten people to find one good one. ~Gasp! I apply that same idea to DU. You have to participate in about 10 threads to get in on one good one.

[truedelphi]

131. You can only use search if you are a certain type of member

At least all the times I've initiated a search, I'm told I can't.

Maybe it's a certain amount of posts. Or a certain amount of donation.

Or maybe I have it wrong and everyone can search except the search engine here hates me.

Any info on this would be considered good info.

Carol

[CrispyQ]

143. You may be right about that,

although I thought anyone with a star could search anywhere.

I have difficulty with search too, although I suspect it's more user error than DU! ;)

[chknltl]

21. Exiled in America:

You are the second DUer I have said this to today: Thank you.
When I want news, I look to the Democratic Underground as a primary source and as filter through which the "REAL" news may be learned. I see many very enlightened well researched topics here and many Jerry Springer style threads here as well. To the authors of those well researched topics: Thank you for your time. To the authors of some of those "other" topics: There is a lounge for pete's sake, it is not such a bad place... really. :hi:

[pa28]

22. It would be nice . . .

I'd love it if every thread was "important", insightful or filled with things that needed to be said.

The thing is our ideas of vital discussion are probably different as are the 100,000 other people who hang around here. I share your frustration with the trivia, the vanity posts and the!*&@(^%&^ "cute" polling questions. But take a minute to marvel that with our diverse and opinionated population the controlled chaos of DU manages to stay somewhat focused and sane.

Another point: sometimes the deep and more depressing topics are read and digested but just not responded to. I think people are more likely to chime in on something that is funny or outrageous than something that makes them angry or depressed. Don't assume your topics escape notice just because they die from lack of response. Sometimes a well written and timely post sinks like an express elevator just because there is nothing really to add.

Just in a nutshell . . . hang in there.

[katsy]

33. Bingo. n/t

[applegrove]

159. Well said. I do think the odd fun post gets us thinking laterally and

with different emotions. We need a break at times. That is how we stay honest in these times. The most important topics are often posted about 20 times in a day. So one post on the newest fun science thing or some funny anecdote really are not posted with as much urgency or frequency as anything important.

The numbers of OPs, at times a few a minute, also make this site interesting and at times surprising. That is what makes the DU the DU. Whatever mood you are in.. you can always find something that interests you. I think if we banned all fun posts..it would be a more depressing site indeed. We need to exercise all of our brain parts to be fully adult and ready for debate on the serious issues we face today. We need many pairs of eyes to zoom in on the truth. And for that we need variety.

[pa28]

204. Definitely.

My big off-topic thing is the science posts that show up here (which you happened to mention). But other people have their own avenues to pursue so you just hang back sometimes and appreciate the diversity of interest.

This space would be pretty dull if we stayed "on message" all the time.

[rman]

23. Maybe we should leave GD to the sensationalistic non-political

stories, and use GD Politics for discussions of politics?

[JNelson6563]

45. That won't work now

I wondered that too some months ago, as I watched GD morph into the new lounge. Now I am glad that's not the case because it is my hope that the 08 idiocy can be contained to that forum and other topics can be in GD. Seemed to me when I signed up for DU years ago vanity and silliness posts were suppose to go in the lounge and more serious topics into GD.

Then there was the primary forum for the 04 ugliness and after the elections that year the primary forum was made into the GD politics forum. Seems that was a major turning point for GD. Many a poster seemed to take that to mean that lounge fodder was now welcome in GD.

I reckon I'll be sticking primarily to LBN with the upcoming primary season. At least the on-line idiocy that passes for "activism" in the minds of many is barred from there and the rules still seem to be pretty strictly enforced. But then again, the guidelines for LBN are very clear, unlike many of the others in question.


Julie

[Annces]

48. right - I think that is a good idea n/t

[malaise]

24. You raise valid points

but in an age of 24 hour news, current popular topics will alway compete with serious and critical issues.

[JNelson6563]

25. Wasn't always this way

Used to be that lounge crap was kept in the lounge. Things really changed around election 2004. Many joined who had little to offer but peanut gallery stuff outside of pushing their candidate of choice. After those elections standards seemed to have gone out the window.

Now GD is the personal lounge of many and OPs that are a sentence long and often incoherent or tabloid fodder are far more common than serious commentary on meaningful topics.

Take heart, LBN has proven to be pretty secure yet from the silliness that is now standard fare. Sadly, I still don't send people here anymore, haven't for a long time. That'd be like inviting 'em over to watch my kids squabble.

Julie

[Le Taz Hot]

26. You're not alone in your feelings.

And I confess, I've reduced my posts basically to one to two-line quips. Why? Because I have literally spent days researching and carefully writing and editing a post just to watch it disappear within 20 minutes because it had nothing to do with "Rah Rah I want (fill-in-the-blank) for 2008" or "What Kerry REALLY meant to say . . ."

I've been here since 2001 and, though the administrators of this site refute this, I'm still of the mindset that, in the early days of DU, there were much more thought-provoking posts, actual well-thought-out intellectual debate and a wealth of information and discussion. It's what originally drew me to this place.

That being said, I started posting on political BBS in the early 90's and have been on several in the last 15 years. In every single case, the evolutionary process is backward. The more people who join, the worse the discourse gets until you get, well, what DU is today. I've done this for so long I can actually predict (and I haven't even read upthread) that if it hasn't been posted already, there will be someone who says "if you don't like it, leave" which beautifully illustrates the point. There's really no way to stop it save from going to an "exclusive" site. I've been in those too and unless you're a fan of groupthink circle jerks, in the end, it's really no better.

You have my understanding and sympathy, my friend.

[zeemike]

27. In defense of the average DUer

I would say that I have seen just about every topic you can imagine here at one time or the other. I mean in 25million post we must have covered it all at one time or the other.
And controlling it is not my place. If it were I would have every post deal with Transportation and the elimination of the use of fossil fuels which I think is the most important thing in the world.
But you might disagree with that and get bored at the things that seem imposable to you to change, like changing to mass transportation.
I have posted on this subject and received relative few responses that were both "right on" and "that can't be done". But you know that is just the way it goes.
And even for myself I like some times to just go to the lounge and have some fun and forget about the serious stuff for a while to get my Mojo back.
The fact is that our problems in this country are so numerous and profound there is no way to focus on "the most important ones". They are all important and will not be solved in our lifetime and we must come to that understating or we will be driven nuts by it all.
The changes we all want will take generations to make. and we must be patient but persistent if we want it to happen at all.

[trumad]

28. I wrote something important for DU

and it dropped off the front page in 35 seconds. I can't tell you how dismayed I was. For two weeks I stayed out of work and stayed in my pajamas uttering the reverse Sally Fields line, "they don't love me anymore, they really don't love me".

I snapped out of it eventually, but I admit, I'll most likely never be that same cheerful trumad that once graced this wonderful forum.


It's going to be alright trumad..

[Radio_Lady]

181. Trumad, me thinks thou doth protest too much!

First of all, those two kids are ADORABLE...

Secondly, you've posted more than 15,000 times since 2001.

I'm sure much of that was "substantial" -- and I'd venture that at least some of it was "trivial" -- but FUN!

Wishing you and your family the very best holiday season!

Radio_Lady

[trumad]

205. Thank you---

I'm just poking a little fun at the Op.... I've seen posts like this a bunch since I've been on DU...and guess what--- I'll see a bunch more.

This is simply the nature of an online forum, especially one this size, and no matter how much some are disappointed in how we operate...it ain't gonna change.

[Radio_Lady]

208. Not only is the nature of an on-line forum, but it also happens in talk radio...

The host may bring up an "important" topic and try to stick with it. However, it's the audience's response that creates the conversation. Audiences are notoriously able to skew the conversation to WHATEVER the large -- or small -- item is that's currently on their (alleged) minds.

I found that out in the 1970s and 1980s when I did direct, call-in radio. The only time it changed was when I decided to do a guest-only and commentary only program. I still get mail, but audience members don't have the ability to derail my own thoughts and those of my guests.

You're very right -- discourse seeks it own level and it will continue to do so at the DU. If you need a daily affirming populace to pat you on the back for even the most important and "heady" issue, you'll have to find it elsewhere.

Radio_Lady (laboring in the real world of words and ideas)

[bowens43]

29. Well I guess we should seek your approval before posting......

This is a discussion borad. We discuss things. Many things.

If you don't like some of the posts, don't participate in the thread....oh that's right, 4 years and 600 posts, you don't participate.

[TwilightZone]

179. As opposed to your snide remarks?

The OP's posting is significantly more participatory than your derisive response. If that's your idea of participation, it would seem that the OP's point is dead on.

[tbyg52]

30. And election reform news,

which *does* get posted.

After that, corporations, including corporate media.

Election fraud and corporations are the twin roots of our current situation, IMO.


----------
Edited to add "corporate media."

[Vinca]

34. Why don't you post more and keep important discussions going?

It doesn't seem fair for you to criticize posters for their topics when you opt to sit on the sidelines. I agree with your post, by the way, especially the constant chatter about 2008 candidates. I can't resist adding my 2 cents to the mix, how can you?

[Exiled in America]

149. I'll do my best, for the last eight months I was a campaign manager --

-- that leaves time for absolutely nothing else. :(

Now though, I'm starting to return to a normal schedule. :)

[Warren Stupidity]

35. Actually there are many fine discussions here

as well as tons of total idiocy, sensationalism etc. If your post is not controversial, or an essay of superior quality, if it is something that most of us just agree on and not particularly insightful, it is not going to live very long. This is a discussion board, and 'yeah I agree' doesn't much of a discussion make.

The essays that we agree on that make it to the greatest board, like your essay right here, are there because they are well written. It is just a fact of life.

[Catchawave]

40. "Yes, I agree" :)) DU should be one of many blogs....

and discussion boards on a serious political and news junky's diet :)

I love my DU fixes, as it's like having a warm toddy with friends while discussing many topics with like minds. There's no better place to be for current events, liveblogging, breaking news and information.

I hope the OP feels better after having vented, but I can assure him that the more blogs you read, the more like home DU feels :)

[classof56]

94. What you said, Catchawave!

I too love my DU fixes, and I more than appreciate the discussions among like-minded folks. Makes me feel much better to know they're there, 'cause there's not many of them in my "real world." In fact, I go to DU for latest breaking news, since I pretty much refuse to watch any MSM, save a couple of stations for local news. I know DU isn't a perfect fit for everyone on every topic, but comes as close as I've found to meeting my needs for information presented reasonably and honestly. And I'm always open to other points of view. It's what makes for good discourse.

I'm proud to be on DU. Trust me, it has helped keep me sane and off the couch the past few years. Keep it going!

Tired Old Cynic

[Catchawave]

110. Why thank you class !

:toast:

[sendero]

36. Try to understand this..

... folks come to message boards as a place to unwind, vent their views, and generally catch up on what is happening that would be of interest to them.

Secondarily, they will engage in debates about policy.

To expect a message board to not be mostly fluff is unrealistic. Please feel free to check out any number of similar boards. DU is actually better than all but a handful IMHO, and that handful is over-moderated to the point that I would not enjoy being there.

Look at TV, look at every thing in this country. On some level DU is merely entertainment like everything else. At least it is not as bad as TV, at least among the pointless debates are the occassional well-considered post.

[Muddy75]

39. How is your 'idea' of DU even possible to execute?

Unless you trumpet the popular opinion, or have at least 1000 posts, you are labeled a troll, or worse. Your ideal can only be reached by DISCUSSION, and that includes LISTENING to all opinions. It's written right in the rules - YOU MUST TRUMPET THE POPULAR OPINION!.

And you wonder why there are 3000 posts on Michael Richards? This is really the only kind of discussion allowed, other than the 'ra, ra, ra' , 'Go Hillary, Go Obama' threads. I've seen it posted many times that this site is only to promote the principles and ideas of the DEMOCRATIC party. Tell me, all those ideals you list here: (all of which I agree with...)

" - Labor rights (including wage, protections, conditions, and regulation of industry)
- Tackling the Corporate Oligarchy which has turned our country into a militant imperialistic hegemony machine instead of the beautiful ideal on which this country was founded
- Combating an unjust globalization model
- Putting as much emphasis on Education as we do on Defense
- Reasserting the need for universal health care options so that no one will ever be without adequate medical coverage"

Do you ever hear any elected rep. even broach these subjects? Especially the 'Corporate Oligarchy' dynamic? Of course not, your elected politicians know where 'their bread is buttered', so to speak. So by definition, these ideals ARE NOT DEMOCRATIC IDEALS and therefore subject to censure and ridicule on a supposed 'progressive board'.

Don't get me wrong - I love this website. But once I realized that any discussion is to be tailored to a certain mind-set or set of ideas, it really lost it's luster. This is by far the best website for news - I suggest you use this site for those purposes.

[trumad]

43. Just news huh?

You don't love this web site---because if you did you wouldn't write such tripe. There have been 1000's of original incredible pieces that have been written right here at DU. DU is one of the greatest Think Tanks on the web and has inspired many people to become activists in Progressive politics.

Your labeling this place as just news is simply misinformed bullshit.

[Muddy75]

46. Thanks for proving my point. n/t

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddy75]

89. Sigh.. yes, I'm full of it. You are right, I am wrong. Happy?

Some of the responses on this thread are right on the money and echo the points I and the OP were saying...but go ahead, pick on the guy with the least amount of posts, finger me out as having the lone dissenting opinion...it's easier that way right?

[trumad]

109. I could care less how many posts you have...

[LiberalEsto]

41. End tax breaks for outsourcing corporations

It's the only way.

The Federal National Mortgage Administration, Fannie Mae, pays ZERO property taxes in Washington DC. But their computer people are now overwhelmingly Indians here on H1-B visas, while the taxpaying American citizens who once held those jobs are now unemployed. Fair?
No way in hell.

Any corporation that replaces American workers with imported foreign citizens our outsources jobs to foreign countries should lose all tax breaks and pay some kind of tariffs.

Why should we, as taxpayers, subsidize the loss of our own jobs?

[LWolf]

42. I'll join you in a desire to raise the level of discussion.

Large numbers of people could be discussing how to address real issues that affect real people instead of primary campaigning, reporting what "somebody" said on the tv, or what <insert rep/candidate of choice here> said about an issue. Often, if a favored rep/candidate said it, that's the final word.

I spend a short time, very early in the morning here on the left coast, on DU. If I catch your threads, I'll be sure to join in.

[dalaigh lllama]

44. Glad to see you'll post more on these issues

Would also like to second the suggestion of someone else upthread: please start a journal, so folks who miss your info can read it later and you won't have to despair of important info disappearing unread.

I don't have a problem with the "frothy" postings here; I can either read them or skip them as the mood (or time element) strikes me. But one thing I've found is that sometimes the problems we face seem so gargantuan that I need to step away for a while to regain my equilibrium, and that's when I'm more apt to read just the "froth." When I'm back on my game, I have certain posters that I read: ones who I consider newshounds, or who have a particular project they are pursuing, or who have a delightful turn of phrase that skewers the administrative blowhards, or ones who just seem wise or wholesome in their outlook. They all also happen to have journals, so I can read their posts at my leisure.

[johnnie]

47. My opinion

I agree with a lot of what you say, but here is my take.

Concerning the major flame wars, typically it is the same group of people that really get going on them. Once in a while some others will chime in, but mainly it is a handful of the same gang.

GD seems to be more of an open forum on just about every issue and it is also the most popular. To me it is like shoving 5 pounds of shit in a 1 pound box and it gets pretty messy. GD politics sticks more to the issues but isn't as popular.

I have tried to post what I thought were important issues in GD before only to watch them being pushed down the page by Britney Spears or the bush twins, but that is general discussion and that's what happens.

My thoughts are that GD Politics is more of the forum to be posting issues concerning heavy politics and GD will still stay the same with scattered issues.

*Disclaimer, I am still on my first cup of coffee so that is why my thoughts are half assed right now.

[BlackVelvet04]

49. General Discussion seems to be the

general dumping ground and maybe that's what it was intended to be. On another message board I use we have things more broken down into different forums. There is an Arts Forum which is used for things like the Michael Richards hoopla and a Faith and Spirituality forum for things like the Haggard hoopla. Of course it's a lot smaller community.

Basically I agree with you. Some days I spend little time at DU because of the repetition of polls for 2008.

Oh, and a joke is fine but not over and over and over and over again. Hugh moran, series, and screwn were pretty funny the first time, less funny the 1000th time.

As someone else pointed out, maybe we need to be in the General Discussion Politics forum instead of General Discussion.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

50. I can't help but remark on some of the other OP's on the greatest page, along with yours.

Top of the page: BREAKING: NATIONAL STANDARDS INSTITUTE RECOMMENDS SCRAPPING TOUCH-SCREEN VOTING SYSTEMS!

An additional sampling:

Sibel Edmonds: Highjacking of a Nation. Part 2

Bill Moyers: 'Soldiers Cannot Sustain In the Field -What Cannot Be Justified In the Constitution'

EPA SCIENTISTS FILE MASS PETITION FOR ACTION ON GLOBAL WARMING

AP: FEMA Ordered to Resume Katrina Payments

20 citizen groups urge ethics reform to deny of pensions to lawmakers convicted of felonies..YES!

U.S. to pay $2M, apologize for false terror arrest (Portland atty.)

Sen Dodd: Warns Bush & Rummy-DO NOT IMPLEMENT MILITARY COMMISSIONS ACT

Price of oil up on surprise decline in inventories

There is no lack of substantive discussion here. There's just so much going on, and so much that needs addressed. I'm a nurse and have profound frustrations with the current tiered health care system in this country. When patients turn down much needed medical care because they can't afford it (and these are people who have insurance), it's heartbreaking. That is one thing I hope to see discussed more as Congress convenes in Jan.

As far as discussion of celebrity idiocy, at least we are spared in depth Britney and K-Fed or TomKat discussions here! :hi: MKJ

[bloom]

79. exactly

There are plenty of discussions and threads about important things. You have to know where to look.

[Horse with no Name]

51. I have spent time researching a post

Only to watch it sink.
It is frustrating.
But then you write something stupid like not wanting to buy cabbage and it gets a giant flame war and 100 responses.
But I digress.
The thing you have to remember is that discourse such as we have here, leads to other things. How many times have you read a post only to have a lightbulb moment?
It is called brainstorming. Sometimes it is effective. Sometimes not.
DU has changed since I started coming here.
Right now I would attribute some of the topics to a little burnout that people have felt. This was a hard fought election.
I'm not ready to dive into the 2008 elections yet.
Hang in there. This too shall pass.

[KoKo]

70. what you say Horse: "discourse such as we have here, leads to other things

How many times have you read a post only to have a lightbulb moment? It is called brainstorming. Sometimes it is effective. Sometimes not."

Lightbulb Moments...and links to organizations or groups working on all the issues and more that the OP mentions.

[earth mom]

52. Sure the majority of people on DU need to read

Confessions of an Economic Hitman if they really want to get to the heart of what's wrong with this country. They also need to kick every single DLC globalist promoter like Hillary to the curb. And they need to understand that Katrina is an example of what the bastards in charge will do to all of us if they feel like it and it suits their purposes. No illusions here.

Sure there are way too many silly and pointless threads here on DU. Yes, important topics sink like a stone. Hell, some people are actually against Impeachment after 6 long years of blatant criminal behavior by TPTB! Investigations? No duh, though we already know they are as guilty as sin! And not only that but people around here are actually against Cindy Sheehan who refuses to give up on the noble cause of peace! Like WTF?!

Sure, a lot of it makes ya want to say F it and walk away. But staying here and putting your 2 cents in as much as you possibly can is like that drop of water or that squeaky wheel. Sure it's one small step at a time. But that's the ONLY way people and this world are gonna change.

[mike_c]

53. please post your excellent comments MORE FREQUENTLY....

I agree with you 100 percent.

[kstewart33]

54. Whatever you do, don't leave DU.

By your post, it's obvious you are quite bright and a fine writer.

Most of us are influenced by our culture. Heck, I dislike all the attention paid in our society to celebrities, but I admit that I'll catch the latest scandal or fling reported in the media.

I wish that I participated in the kinds of discussions that you note, but I simply don't have the time. I scan DU every morning along with about 15 other political sites, and then it's off to work. Same in the evening with kids and homework.

Here are some other sites to check which address some of the issues that I'd think you might be interested in (Google them for their exact URLs): dailykos, mydd, andrew sullivan, billmon at the whiskey bar (he's great but is currently inactive due to workload), washington monthly (kevin drum), washington note (steve clemons), matthew yglesias, david sirota. Firedoglake is occasionally good; their community of posters is interesting to read. Talkleft is good on the law and social issues.

Of these, kevin drum, yglesias, sullivan, billmon, and sirota are best. Clemons can be great on foreign policy but he travels alot and so does not post so often.

[noamnety]

56. It would help A LOT if fluff stayed in the lounge

I'm always confused when I see a thread about Laura Bush's fashion choices, for instance, in General Discussion: Politics.

Is that what passes for political discussions? I mean I understand why the 9/11 stuff has its own forum, but I think it might be time to consider putting that in GD: Politics and creating a Laura Bush's Waistline forum, because that sort of thing reflects worse on us as a community than any 9/11 MIHOP theories ever could.

This isn't a plea to move that forum, just to make that clear, but rather a suggestion that it might be time to really look at the types of threads that are in GD, and GD Politics and decide if that's how we want others to perceive DU. If not, move those discussions to another area. A pop culture gossip forum might be appropriate. Also, I am down on my knees praying here to the DU Gods that be, please consider making a 2008 campaign forum, and moving all the "here's my daily thread on my favored candidate" posts there.

We all know (insert candidate's name) is the ONE candidate who can lead our country out of the pit of despair we are in, and only that one person has the wisdom and leadership and ability to connect to people ... and yes, they are the one true maverick ... but that's not really a political discussion of substance, not in the same way as the OP is suggesting a political discussion needs to go.

There's a place for candidate worship, and I don't want to downplay that because it's that sort of passion that makes people work for a person. But for those of us who are facing actual daily problems, that don't have health insurance or just got laid off or have a kid in Iraq, it's the ISSUES that matter.

[OregonBlue]

99. What you said. Maybe mods need to start educating people about

the lounge and moving posts to the appropriate forum for a while. Lot of work for mods but eventually, people would start to get it?

[NeedleCast]

57. These are Important Causes

and your post is well spoken..err, typed, whatever. The problem is that (and I agree that many of the issues you brought up are important) these are your "pet" issues, and other people have their own. By saying that everyone of your issues takes precedence over the bulk of what gets posted on DU, you diminish what other people might think of the most pressing issue.

[ananda]

59. DU is a human community.

Humans are not perfect.

What I do is read the posts that interest me and ignore the rest.

[H2O Man]

62. Strawberry Fields Forever ....

No one I think is in my tree
I mean it must be high or low
That is you can't, you know, tune in
but it's all right
That is I think it's not too bad

Let me take you down
cause I'm going to strawberry fields
Nothing is real
and nothing to get hung about
Strawberry fields forever

Always know sometimes think it's me
But you know I know when it's a dream
I think I know I mean, ah yes
but it's all wrong
that is I think I disagree
(Lennon)

I think that there is an expected "let down" from the election, combined with the holiday season. But I am not entirely objective -- I often hope that my essays will get some responses, and am as interested in people with sincere disagreements and other points of view, as with those who might agree with me. But most of my posts and comments on other threads go by without notice. It may be that what I'm saying is of little interest, or makes no sense. Or it may just be a DU phase.

[KoKo]

77. I was going to post about DU "phases." And, we are in a lull because

not much can get done until our Dems are actually in place in the House and Senate and we can now get back to work on the important issues...this time with a VOICE, though.

But, Skinner in one of his old posts on DU's Golden Age kind of gets to the point:

There is a natural ebb and flow, a cyclical nature to this place. People come and go. Problems flare up and fizzle out. DU is great when there's lots of news because we've all got a common purpose. It's usually a cesspool of flaming when there's no news, or when Dems are getting our asses kicked in the news, because our sense of common purpose is lost.

[trumad]

82. OK---no google

What did the "S" stand for in Harry Trumans middle name?

[H2O Man]

85. Ringo.

I didn't even have to google that. I have the Oxford Companion to the United States History right next to me. Truman was the drummer for the Bay City Rollers, after Paul died.

[trumad]

108. Shit

I thought I had you.....

[porphyrian]

63. DU isn't necessarily representative of anything but DU.

If you don't see topics you believe should be discussed, post them, don't bitch about it. Or bitch about it if you want, but then you'll get responses like these. You don't set the agenda here any more than anyone else, and if you don't participate, tough shit. If you want everyone to think the same way as you and follow your agenda, start your own website.

[LeftHander]

64. Excellent Post....thanks K&R nt

[Lerkfish]

65. well, for what its worth, I think with this many posters, there is a diversity

of interests. I don't open every thread because I'm not interested in every thing, but I would hate like heck to if someone deemed threads I WAS interested in irrelevant and cullable (is that a word?).

I will quote Willy Wonka: " A little madness now and then, is treasured by the wisest men".


I agree that there are substantive issues that SHOULD be discussed. But I also think this is somewhat of a community, and as such, the definition of "substantive" will differ depending on the person.
I choose to tolerate other's definitions, and open those threads that interest me.
I'm not perfect, though, and I will barge into threads I feel are loopy from time to time and speak.my.mind.

what a concept on a discussion board!

I would advise the articulate OP to 1. get over it, and 2. post more.

there, problem solved.

[Brazenly Liberal]

66. You need to give people a break.

When I was in college, I had a somewhat odd double major - biology and linguistics. It meant doing a great deal of very information-dense reading for months at a stretch. After my junior year, during the few weeks before summer school started, I wandered over to the park and settled under a tree to read "Jaws." Two chapters in, a neighbor came along and after exchanging a few pleasantries about the weather, launched into a rant about how trashy novels are why Americans don't do as well in school as people of some other nations. I could have felt guilty about my own paperback or gotten defensive and launched into my own rant about what I had been reading all year, but I just got up and walked away. Relaxing with a novel was my choice and one I didn't need to defend. Delivering a snarky lecture about it was all about him and his needs, either to feel superior or to deal with his feelings about his own mindless pursuits. If he wanted an American to read something more edifying, he could have settled under his own damn tree with any book he felt suitable.

It's been a tense, difficult, maddening six years topped off by an election that consumed people to an unusual degree. It would be a lot more surprising if people didn't need a refractory period to allow their emotional, intellectual and spiritual reserves to be replenished. If they engage in frivolous pursuits for a while, that's their choice and they don't need to defend it. You can deliver the lecture or you can go sit under your own damn tree and start a thread on a topic you feel is suitable.

[Skinner]

67. I could write a book on this, but I'll keep my response brief.

I'm just going to boil this down to the most important points so they don't get lost. I hope this will get everyone to think. I am addressing everyone here, not just the OP.

1. I understand your frustration.

2. What people *think* they want, and what people *really* want is often quite different. If the posts and polls on this topic are to be believed, there is a huge consituency for more substantive and important discussion. But when someone takes the time to write something substantive or important, it often does not get responses. My guess -- and this is only a guess -- is that people want there to be a lot of substantive discussion so they can feel good about DU, but very few people particularly want to participate in these substantive discussions. I am not passing judgment here. Think of it this way: shooting the breeze with friends is more fun than doing homework.

3. The issues that attract the most responses are those where disagreement and/or controversy are greatest. I believe perhaps the most important reason why the so-called "big issues" drop like a stone is because everybody agrees. Consider one of the examples in the OP: How many DUers are going to disagree with the idea that profitable corporations should pay taxes? None or virtually none.

4. Leave the General Discussion forum once in a while. The most, um, "excesses" of DU occur here. There are other forums, and many of those forums are more substantive. I think of Latest Breaking News as our "crown jewel" -- threads are more serious and topical, and attention-seekers and flame-baiters are unable to post topics whenever a thought pops into their heads. The General Discussion: Politics forum has the spontineity of GD, but with more thoughtful responses and less bullcrap. (If you are unable to leave GD for an extened period of time, then I would direct your attention to point #2 above.)

5. There is plenty of good stuff on DU, the problem is finding it. Unfortunately, it takes work. Check the Greatest Page. Check the homepage. Put some forums in your "My Forums" list and check them regularly. Add some good Journals to your Journal Tracker. You can now sort forums by the time when new threads were posted, so you can easily keep track of what's new. Use the "Mark" feature to help find new stuff.

6. DU has always been this way. There never was a golden age. How people remember things and how they really were are often very different. Read this post for a long discourse on this subject.

[ProfessorGAC]

72. Your Point #3 Is The Most Prescient, I Think

The major issues that confront the country as a whole have solutions that are essentially a consensus among folks interested enough to be on DU. So, those types of things are not going to prompt much discussion. This would be ESPECIALLY true if the OP of such a thread was very well written, well thought out, and systematic in its presentation. Then people would read it, figure they agreed and move on.

While all your points are sound, Skinner, i think #3 is the one that real nails it down.

The Professor

[piedmont]

90. exactly

The threads I'm most likely to post in are typically the ones on topics that "divide" progressives. That's just because I like to debate, and there's no debate here on whether pollution is bad or whether corporations have too much power, etc. Sometimes I feel like the guy in the Monty Python sketch who goes to the argument store.

If we really wanted debate on the BIG issues (issues we're mainly all in agreement on) we should have a "freeper rumpus room." I'm not saying allow freeper-types to post everywhere, just one forum where we can get an argument when someone asks "Should corporations be taxed more?"

[lumberjack_jeff]

92. Strongly agree with #3. I have a suggestion.

For the next upgrade of the board, I hope you consider a new feature. A vote to recommend a post could "pin" the post to the top of the list for a minute or two. Where a kick brings a post front and center, a vote could keep it there for 60 seconds or so - an eternity in DU land.

[Skinner]

96. Interesting idea.

We've been kicking around a few ideas similar to what you suggest, but we never thought of this one. It's an interesting idea, and it's definitely worth considering.

[Exiled in America]

148. Thank you skinner for such a thoughtful response - really took to heart! :) (nt)

[Norquist Nemesis]

68. Ok, 'fess up! Are you...

Dennis, Sherrod? j/k...well, sort of anyway. The thoughts you've put into writing and done so clearly and eloquently just remind me of several of our DC best. Those who are passionate, well-informed, and reasoned. Your post is superb and I hope you'll provide many, many more!

Yes, the latest Michael Richards, Brittney, and Branjolina can suck the air right out of the servers. To a certain extent, some of it is just letting off a little steam. But, I have to agree that I often wish the threads would be moved and/or combined elsewhere. As for the 9,247th poll and discussions of 2008 dreams...well, I generally just ignore them figuring that acknowlegement only puts them back to the top of the page. When they get to be too much, it's time to get some vaccuuming, dishes, or toilet cleaning accomplished. (Some days, my house is positively spotless! LOL!)

To get to the gist of what you're saying, I agree. It can be extremely frustrating when one takes the time and effort to to bring a topic front and center for the community, only to have it fall within minutes. IMO, there's several factors that go into that only one of them being the time of day the posting occurs.

I come to DU for news and to toss around ideas, perceptions, speculations and generally to keep up with the world. Personally, I don't see how a mother breastfeeding is an indication that our world as we know it. The smoking/non-smoking threads are like yelling 'fire!' in the DU theatre. There's plenty of evidence that many would disagree with me on those things and it's just not worth the time to engage.

So, FWIW, keep bringing your ideas and info. Lord knows we need people like you putting them into our conscious. :)

[tinfoilinfor2005]

69. Good point. And if there was a forum dedicated to these issues alone,

I bet the first post would be a goofy picture of bush slamming into a door somewhere in outer Mongolia.

But probably further down the thread, some serious poster would present a valuable thought or idea.

[JudyM]

71. A few suggestions...

1) Maybe we can petition to add another big forum, and call it "In-depth Discussion" or something like that. There would be far fewer posts, so it would be easier to focus on serious issues and keep the flow going.

2) Assuming 1 doesn't happen, take a look at the folks who responded to this post indicating they feel the same as you, and consider forming a 'club' within DU where you PM each other when you've posted something you're hoping will generate discussion. Maybe these deeper discussions would be best posted in topic forums, maybe not. I would like to be included in your list for this in-depth discussion club. ;->

3) I wonder if there's a programming way to link follow-up posts to the original posting of a topic, whereby the OP color would show there's a new post-within-the-post, and that new addition would be highlighted as a sub-thread within. That way, folks interested in that topic (e.g., Michael Richards' mess) would know there was something new happening. If they're interested in following it for updates they can bookmark it or something. Meanwhile, those DUers who are less interested would only have one post on the board on that topic to skip over, rather than seeing everything anew.

4) Consider alerting the mods more often when you run across a Lounge-y topic.

I understand exactly what you mean and I think DU is a super place. I just would like there to be less junk in GD Politics and LBN. I mean, Michael Richards claiming he's Jewish really doesn't belong in LBN, IMO. It would certainly increase the efficiency of browsing through the post headings if people realized that.

[JNelson6563]

87. Point #4

4) Consider alerting the mods more often when you run across a Lounge-y topic.

This is a good suggestion and I do this myself. The problem with this method of trying to contain the idiocy that abounds in GD is that such posts are often legion.

Maybe if we had a "A thought just entered my head and I feel compelled to post it" forum that would help.

And while there may not have been a Golden Age here at DU, I can assure you people did not feel free to post the kind of shit they do now. I don't turn to DU GD to see who's having a birthday, what the weather is in this or that part of the country and I sure as hell couldn't care less that someone has finally made their 1000th post! I'm pretty sure there used to be some kind of guidelines as to what went where back in the day when I signed up~~and stupid me, I thought they meant it!

The fact that people treat GD as their personal lounges is evidence that no one feels any restraint as to where to post anything at all.

Julie

[Sapphire Blue]

74. Ah, yes, the Coalition on Human Needs...

The most recent threads I posted...

Reminder: Vote for Your Top Human Needs Priorities by Monday, Nov 20: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2753451

Vote for Your Top 3 Human Needs Priorities for the New Congress: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2720597

Just not sexy enough. :sarcasm:

[Exiled in America]

175. Yes, I love the CoH. One thread go 0 response and the other less than 10 :(

It's too bad too, because I think so highly of the coalition on Human needs and the work they are doing. I got both of those releases in my mail box! <3 them.

[Sapphire Blue]

180. Did you ever read/respond to any of the CHN/budget cut threads that I've damn near spammed DU with..

... over the past year... posting, SCREAMING, and whispering to get people's attention to call Congress to stop the budget cuts? Some threads got lots of response, others, not so much.

I'll be at it again during the next budget battle. I hope to see you then! :hi:

Sapphire Blue,
Resident DU fanatic beggar

[Exiled in America]

185. Yes I believe I did on DU and I was also a budget spammer on other boards! :)

When our powers combine..... hehehe

[lectrobyte]

75. disappointment, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder. sorry we are

not living up to your standards.

[Jed Dilligan]

76. Are any Democrats talking about these issues?

I'm sure that the minute an elected D brought up any of the issues you bring up, we would be talking and talking and talking about it. As it stands, the lack of discussion here seems to reflect a lack of discussion in Washington.

What are we left with? Our opposition to Bush and his regime... We are a shaky coalition at best. I for one am extremely uncomfortable being in the same party as people who want a breathalyzer in everyone's car. I've never identified with any political party before and most of my former hostility to the whole game still stands. It's natural that we fight.

The funny thing is, just about everyone here agrees on the issues you mention. It would be that easy for a politician (other than Bush!) to unite us, simply by mentioning these issues. But our whole membership is thought to represent a political margin. Indeed, the hated Greens speak to your issues much more than the Democrats ever have.

[progressoid]

78. Shhhh!!! I'm trying to read about Pamela Anderson & Kid Rock's divorce!

[sniffa]

80. this is fLamebait

:eyes:

[ProfessorGAC]

84. Right You Are

It serves no useful purpose other than to stimulate infighting over who's holier and more serious.
The Professor

[Exiled in America]

150. Welp, for "flambait" it has certainly created a great, mostly respectful thread...

..full of interesting points and furthered discussion.

So it seems to have worked out ok. :)

I really don't think its wrong to occasionally respectfully discuss what DU looks like and what we would like to see. And I've been appreciative of responses both in agreement and disagreement that have added important points to the discussion.

[Oilwellian]

86. All of the important issues you raise....

have been posted on DU and discussed in depth. It's an absolutely incredible thing when you see thousands of people scouring the news everyday and those topics are brought to one place where they are discussed. I don't think there's one DU'er who isn't aware of how much corporations have taken control of our government, and without a forum like DU, we'd still be ignorant of that. I can honestly say I've learned more on this forum than any other website or blog on the internet.

The beauty of a place like DU is taking what you learn here and going out into the world and informing your friends and family. Knowledge is indeed power and this recent election is an indication that Americans are finally "getting it." I don't think the oligarchs took into account the power of the internet and the knowledge that brings to we the people.

Because of the sheer number of members on this forum, you're going to see posts that may not interest you in particular. You can't please all of the people all of the time and DU has this wonderful "hide a thread" option that can take all of the fluff off of your screen and bring those important issues back to the front page. Personally, I've learned to go back 3 or 4 pages if I want to catch all of the important posts made in the past hour. Perhaps DU has just become too big for you to handle. I take solace in knowing there's power in numbers and word of mouth is going to be the downfall of these criminals who prefer to operate in the dark.

[bloom]

88. Those sorts of things have been a part of DU

forever - AFAIC.

Sometimes I think it's annoying that that there are so many fluff threads - that suggest that a lot of people watch Corporate News all day and seem to think that it has a reasonable point of view. If people got their news from Democracy Now and other such things - there might be better discussions.

Some of the things that become hot topics on DU are hot topics because there is disagreement about stuff.

I swear some of this must come from Freepers or something - because no reasonable would object to a women breastfeeding her baby on a plane - if there was no disagreement - then there is nothing to discuss - hence there would not be multiple threads with hundreds of posts.

Same with the Richards thing - these are issues that define our interactions as people - in our society. When public figures act in such outrageous ways in public - it gets people riled up - people want confirmation that others see it as outrageous. When people defend or blow off racism - that gets people upset.

As far as globalization - maybe there isn't much to argue about - so the threads - when they exist - amount to people saying "yes". I think the world is set up so that the US is like the slave-holders of the South and other people around the world are our slaves (or pretty close). Where we have what we have because others work under such crappy conditions (even in US territories like the Marianas) - with a system set up and encouraged largely by our gov't/CIA. And yet we are immune from seeing it - take it for granted - when we go shopping for stuff.

There have been some pretty contentious threads that challenge people consumptive habits. (Maybe you think those are silly, too, I don't know. I think that they get to the heart of the matter.) Are people willing to examine and change their own actions and impacts on the world when they are found to be destructive?

And obviously it is ridiculous "that in 2004 sixty-one percent of US-based corporations paid ZERO taxes". Heck - more often than not - the corporations are getting things like parking garages built for them with OUR tax dollars - from our crappy wages paid by some crappy corporations that has no concern about environmental standards - that goes polluting our world with no accountability. And those of us without the crappy corporate jobs that pay for health care are stuck suffering the health consequences - paying out of our own pockets for the the mess that is created by the crappy corporations.

So anyway - go for it. Post what you think are reasonable things. Have a journal that you post them to so that people who want to follow them can see what you posted - they are less likely to fall into oblivion that way.

[Swamp Rat]

95. Let's see, the first time I saw you here you attacked me using the descriptor "Big Tent"

to describe the Democratic Party in a thread where I was passing the olive branch to the other side. You were rude, disrupted a thread, and wasted time trying to make an inane point.

AND, I doubt you have spent much time here in GD the last four years because I have seen hundreds if not thousands of excellent, pro-active threads in GD that concerned economic justice, corporate fraud, and a myriad of other important issues. There are and always have been great threads mixed in with more inconsequental, obtuse, and crazy threads, and that's the way I like it. Most of my time is spent in GD - most of my posts were made here too.

I like GD the way it is, thank you.

[Exiled in America]

211. I completely stand by criticism of the way "big tent" is used.

And I don't apologize for its form. And I seem to recall, making a pretty thorough argument as to why. If you "stand" for everything, you stand for nothing. That simply doesn't work. Freedom in the non-essentials, but there must be agreement in the essentials. What are the essentials? Well I have my opinion, but what would be best is of the democratic party would define its "essentials" in its party platform and then STICK TO THEM.

And as I said before you can't be a large collection of utterly contradictory views and expect to get anything significant done - which is why we haven't for so long.

[Swamp Rat]

216. "you can't be a large collection of utterly contradictory views"

We obviously disagree as to the meaning of "big tent" and how it is used, and the Democratic Party DOES have a platform.

You keep presenting this definition, "a large collection of utterly contradictory views," as the basis of your argument, but that is not reality - it is a fiction in your mind that has become a pet peeve. If it were true, there would be NO Democratic Party at all and they would have lost every single election. Remove the word "utterly" because it sets up a Straw Man argument. If it were true, this definition of "big tent," then who could possibly disagree with this line of reasoning?

The "big tent" means anyone can join, as long as the basic tenets are observed. The origin of "big tent" comes from outdoor Christian revivals where anyone can join and be 'saved' as long as one 'believes' (agrees to the basic tenet of the welcoming group). The reason I like this descriptor is that co-opts the Christian meaning (which has a psychological benefit), thus maximizing the possibility of gaining many new members (Christians, as a religious group, make up the majority in the USA). More members means more successful elections, which in turn means more representation in Washington.

Ok, our argument/disagreement on the use and meaning of "big tent" is really inane, but we could move it to a more productive one where there is agreement, and quite possibly solutions to some real problems. While I don't think the Democratic Party should force everyone to walk lock-step to a comprehensive and rigid set of beliefs, I do think that its members must agree on the most important points and the methodology used to achieve their goals: social and economic justice, equal rights for all, national healthcare, etc.

The republicans like to walk lock-step to a rigid ideology. It has helped them win elections, but only temporarily, as they cannot sustain such inflexibility without eating their own in the end. The end result is a significant loss of membership and disillusionment. AND, they 'win' elections via fraud and coercion, which means their base is smaller than it seems, hence the need for radio and TV propagandists.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

97. What Exiled in America said

Posts about CNN-designated topics get hundreds of replies, while posts about serious issues sink.

I've been guilty of responding to trivial posts, but it's very discouraging to see nearly the whole front page of GD or GD Politics filled up with such trivia.

[ProfessorGAC]

105. See The Subthread With Skinner

That might clear some of that up.
The Professor

[eallen]

100. I'm curious: How much tax do you think a business should pay the years it incurs a loss?

You ask, with seeming surprise, "How many of you knew .. that in 2004 sixty-one percent of US-based corporations paid ZERO taxes?"

That doesn't surprise me at all. The IRS taxes income. Most businesses aren't profitable. The typical lifecycle of a successful business is that it sucks money out of its principals and investors when it is a startup, its need for money slows when it goes through a stage of growing revenues and customers, and it then reaches a point where it starts generating income and returns to its investors. Only in that stage does it owe income tax. Eventually, the existing business plan doesn't work well, and the business again starts to incur losses. At that point, it either evolves into a somewhat different business, or it gets acquired, or it dies.

But most businesses never become profitable. They just suck money out of their principals and investors until these realize that the business is never going to get off the ground, and let the business die. While that stinks, if you happen to be one of the investors, it serves several very useful purposes to the economy. First, every new business is an opportunity for economic improvement. The economy grows by entrepreneurs trying millions of new businesses, and discovering which few will bloom. Second, even the businesses that never earn a dime of profit provide jobs to those who worked at them, and knowledge to the next round of entrepreneurs and investors. Third, even failed businesses paid sales tax, franchise tax, and payroll tax. They didn't pay any income tax because they never had any income. But that doesn't exempt them from other taxes.

Now, I'm happy to consider a variety of ways of changing how taxes are collected on business. But any discussion of that has to be based on an understanding of how businesses are created, thrive, and die. To anyone familiar with this, the notion that most businesses pay no income tax is not surprising, but simply reflects the fact that most businesses have no income, but instead are pits into which investors throw money. Anyone who is surprised by this fact isn't ready to discuss how businesses should be taxed.

[Joe Chi Minh]

116. I think it is the taxation or relative lack of it in connection with the large

corporations that exercises progressives.

[eallen]

123. OK. So large corporations are a very small fraction of all businesses. And sometimes they lose...

There are about 5 million US corporations. In contrast, there are 2,700 on the NYSE, and maybe a few thousand total adding in the other major exchanges. Of course, there are some large corporations that aren't publicly traded, and many publicly traded corporations aren't all that large. Still, when one talks about large corporation, that's fewer than 1% of all businesses. The original poster seemed surprised that 60% didn't pay income taxes. I'm not surprised, because I figure 60% aren't making any money.

And even for large companies, my question still stands. Ford had a lousy year. It expects to lose $6 billion in 2006. It hopes to return to profitability by 2009:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061115/BUSINESS01/611150346/1014

How much tax should Ford pay on an income of -$6,000,000,000?

Let me be clear that I favor taxing corporations. I even favor some taxes on corporations that are losing money. But the income tax is paid on income, and Ford's income this year is a huge ocean of red ink. Is it politically scandalous that a huge company like Ford will pay no income tax in 2006?!

Well. I think people holding Ford stock should be a bit scandalized that Ford had no profit this year. But I also think the issue of business taxes needs to be discussed with some understanding of, well, business. The original poster left me more than bit underwhelmed that he was surprised by how many corporations don't pay income tax.

[Exiled in America]

152. I respect your valid point, I am wondering if this article will help as a response:

I was planning on posting this with some thoughts and comments later today (I'm almost out of time right now).

I was wondering if this article might help explain the "other" side - by that I mean the side that is critical and believes that US corporations to not pay enough in taxes. I acknolwedge that something might need to be handled for corporations that don't show a profit. But that's not what this article shows.

This article shows corporations whose combined profits exceeded 3 TRILLION dollars and paid zero (not some, zero) taxes. I think we could all get together and agree that this is not appropriate.

The article also makes a lot of other important points, all of them focusing on profitable corporations, it also talks about the significant loopholes which help ALL corporations avoid taxation.

Here is the link, I'll probably still post as a separate thread later with some comments:

How to Earn 3.5 Trillion and Pay Zero Taxes:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0419/p16s03-cogn.html

[eallen]

157. And in return, I think that article's point is quite valid.

I sometimes think that we would do better to tax just corporations. The main worries I have about that are that the corporations with the most political influence would still work the politicians and tax code to shift the burden in ways askew. There's a very real problem with corporate political influence.

[Joe Chi Minh]

165. You're really confused, aren't you? Large corporations are a very small fraction

of all business!!! Are you completely barmy? Their sales and net income dwarf small those of small businesses!

Less than 1% of all businesses!! You mean numerically, don't you? Really, you're beyond help.

And how much of Ford's profits has been bilked by the CEO, directors and shareholders, pray? Or have the poor wee souls not been collecting directors fees, emoluments and dividends, this year?

Lost $6 billion did they? Well it serves them damn right, but not the workers, who bear the brunt! If their senior management had had a care for the ordinary toiling, struggling people of their country, the industry would have been far, far better protected from foreign imports. And there are a host of other ways they would have looked after them.

Then, my friend, they would have had the *** money to buy their blasted cars! So short-sighted, no, blind, it beggars belief.

[eallen]

169. No, I'm not confused at all.

(1) I was responding to the claim that 61% of all corporations pay no taxes. That is, in case you missed it, a claim about number of corporations. (2) I have no doubt that Ford's top executives get well paid. The way our tax system works, that's then their income on which tax is to be paid. That's also a very small part of Ford's revenues. It is not the reason Ford lost so much money this year. There are companies that fraudulently are just vehicles for siphoning funds into the pockets of those who run them. Ford isn't one of those. (3) At least from the 1970s, Ford lobbied for more protection from foreign imports. Contrary to what some people around here think, corporations aren't the government and don't control those decisions. (4) How is it the workers who bear the brunt? They get paid (and should!) for their work, whether the company makes money or goes down the drain. The worst that happens is their job comes to an end. But jobs in capitalism aren't permanent fixtures and can never be so. The economy is dynamic, and jobs come and go. That is and will remain part of the work environment.

[Joe Chi Minh]

210. "The worst that happens is their job comes to an end." That's a good one,

eallan. I love it! The worst that can happen...? Well, stap me, is that all!!!!

Get real, matey. The big shots at Ford are a part of this insanely extreme capitalism - perhaps the true, definitive capitalism if the truth be told.

However, it is insane, because it is based upon the utterly, utterly evil premise that capital (implicitly, the people who own most of it) must take precedence over the rights of the masses to a fair stake in the wealth that their country produces, indeed is capable of producing; that the open-ended greed and unending depredations at the expense of the rest of the country, to shore up and increase their own profits is the only sane economic principle.

Two Christian principles to bear in mind:

1) The above capitalist tenet is diametrically opposed, is completely antithetical, to the most basic and fundamental tenets of Christian belief. Scripture - not last the psalms - is full of prophetic references to the people's triumph over the lovers of war, the oppressors of the poor, the orphan and the widow. Just read the Magnificat and tremble.

By their fruit, you shall know them.

[eallen]

212. Job destruction is an absolutely essential part of a healthy economy.

Unless and until someone understands that, they are not ready to discuss economic issues. Yes, we can discuss politically how to make that less painful. But any economic theory based on the notion that jobs should be viewed as a relatively permanent aspect of life is destined to doldrums, as even the Japanese have learned this last decade. Read it and learn it, because it will be even more true in the future than now: your job is no more permanent than your underwear.

I'm not Christian, so I don't care about your Christian homilies, or what economic notions they prescribe. This nation has suffered quite enough of Christians telling us what economics their religion demands, mostly from the wacky right, but those from the loopy left don't make more sense.

:hippie:

[Joe Chi Minh]

213. See who wins. I recommend that you read Quaker economist

Schumacher's, "Small Is Beautiful". Not that it will penetrate, of course. And slightly more palatable for you, Will Hutton's "The State We're In".

Tell you what, how successful do you think all the outsourcings and lay-offs have been since the post-WWII boom years? And more particularly, since your far-right wizards, Bushco have been in power?

Do you really think a successful economy has many millions of homeless people, includng families? Is that a NATIONAL economy or a predators' economy. The Scandinavian countries s don't seem to fare too badly without your masses of unemployed people with barely a notional safety net. What economies characters, eh? Nothing like even "pro rata" national debts equating to your capitalist-made trillions of dollars, I'll bet.

You clearly believe what you want to believe, and what you want to believe, is ugly beyond belief.

[eallen]

214. Jobs aren't permanent in Scandinavia, either.

Job destruction and unemployment are not the same thing. Job destruction can and often does occur rapidly while the number of jobs is increasing. I was pointing out the need for a dynamic and fluid economy, not calling for mass unemployment. Unless you can parse these differences, you're not ready to discuss economic issues.

:hippie:

[katsy]

154. How about corporate shenanigans to avoid taxes?

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0228-10.htm

" In a remarkable study, Harvard University economist Mihir A. Desai has calculated the difference between the profits that corporations reported to the Internal Revenue Service in 1998, and the profits that accountants certified in the annual reports the companies issued to their stockholders. The difference between them is staggering: $154 billion in 1998. The result of almost one-sixth of a trillion dollars hidden by accountants’ sleight-of-hand from the IRS? The federal government did not collect $54 billion that should have been paid in taxes."

[Joe Chi Minh]

166. Bingo. And their tax share has been massively reduced under such a long

spell of far-right CORPORATIST governnment.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[INDIA]

103. Tombstoned 100 times?

I think there is a little more to your story? Care to share?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

113. They can't, they're now at 101 tombstones.

They don't seem to have ever read the rules for posting on DU, I guess. :shrug:

[JudyM]

104. You've been kicked off that many times and don't know the reason for it? That's just bizarre.

Why don't you PM Skinner and ask about it?

:shrug:

[Quantess]

119. Previously banned DUers

will be banned every time they try to sign up again. That's one of the rules.
You didn't get tombstoned over anything in your post, you just now got banned automatically because your previous DU handles had been tombstoned.

[EnviroBat]

102. I must say I agree,

there's been a lot of worthless drivel here post Nov 7th. Prior to that, it seemed as we had a focus, a real purpose to affect change. Sorry, I just don't give a shit about Michael Richards, Brittany Spears Kooch, anything the media is pushing today. I'm more concerned about losing my job to someone in Tata, or Mumbai at the moment. While I was really hopeful that there would be some hope for change on the horizon with the newly elected leadership, I've yet to hear so much as a whisper. I've posted, and very carefully as to not be labeled a racist mind you, my feelings on the subject a few times with little discussion offered. I guess everyone else here is pretty secure in their job and economic futures. Has this site gone so far left/liberal that we are all walking on egg-shells around here? That's the vibe I'm getting lately. To me, this board should be seething with outrage over the situation in Iraq, and the fact that we are being sold out more and more everyday. Feel free to flame away, but I probably won't reply as this post is founded in one man's opinion, something it seems is fair game for attack lately...

[treestar]

106. Quit trying to control the board and you will enjoy it more

It is hopeless anyway.

Perhaps in face to face groups, your august presence and charisma keep people on track.

But that talent is wasted on internet boards, I find.

There's ignore and delete and the ability to just plain skip.

And everyone is never going to agree on the issues themselves, let alone what is more important.

No group of humans can come up with a representative of that group without disagreement. So it will be invariable that there is difference about who to run in 2008. This is human nature so immutable that fighting it is a sign of neurosis. Even the chimpanzees will argue about which one is the top chimp - the republicans are proof of that.

[robinlynne]

107. I have never even noticed any of the posts you mention. They are not important

to me, so I don't read them. I am part of a small election protection task force, 12 people who work closely year after year. In any one of our meetings there are always several issues I disagree with, or find unfocused and annoying, but that is how democracy works. We are different, but we have great things in common. The bottom line for any group, or even couple, is; Do you have more in common, or more which differentiates the way you think? I love DU, and find a lot in common with its members, including the issues you bring up today. If on one day or another, people are discussing unimportant issues, so be it. We are just people. We are not perfect, and we are not homogeneous (thank goodness). I think, if you took a poll, you would find that we have a lot in common. Sometimes a message sinks because it is poorly written. I have seen postings of mine sink right ot the bottom, while an identical posting goes to the top. Someone used better words, that's all. But honestly, I have never noticed any of the trite messages you mention. I always go straight to the greatest page, and read the postings on the right hand column. Then, when I want to get more depth on an issue, I find the postings on that issue. Democracy aint easy. but it's worth it.

[truedelphi]

132. Agree with you greatly

I think those of us concerned with the election issues of fairness find DU very valuable.

But on the other thing you mention, sometimes it isn't just the wording of the topic, it's the timing.

Today no one may be interested in the fact that say new video of Kennedy assassination clearly shows George Bush Sr standing above the grassy knoll. Tomorrow everyone might be interested. But no one is going to scroll back through six pages to find the OP.

Carol

[hunter]

111. The most important posts are in the Lounge. I'm not kidding.

And the only truly relevant posts are in Energy/Environment.

None of the stuff you talk about is going to matter when the train comes off the tracks. The biggest international Corporations and Oligarchies you decry will be entirely irrelevant when changing climate and rising sea levels destroy the possibility of international commerce at existing scales, and every coastal city on earth looks like New Orleans does now, but with no working ports.

At best the future is FDR style socialism, at worse chaos and death.

The bulk of your haughty issues will be about as important as Britney Spears lack of underwear.

What you don't realize is that public attitudes are far more important than any specific political issue. If we can't reach some kind of consensus about little things like breastfeeding in public or the Olive Garden, then the big things are certainly going to overwhelm us, and perhaps 90% of the human population will be wiped out in various environmental catastrophes. That's always been how nature deals with sudden bursts of overpopulation, and mankind is no exception. The only hope we have is that we use our brains and find a comfortable and stable ecological niche for ourselves, before we find ourselves shoved against our wills into places of savagery and death.

Get off your high horse and walk with the common people. When you yourself contribute to what you regard as "critical issues" do it quietly, and do not be like the pharisees trumpeting your own goodness and wisdom.

[Joe Chi Minh]

112. Although I'm guilty of partisan battling in terms of the best candidates

for 2008, I believe this is one of the most significant and relevant posts I've seen here since I joined up, I think in 2000.

Unless this and previous government's failures/derelictions (in the UK just as much) in these key areas, are remedied, I don't believe anything else will matter in the slightest. You, as a people (as well as we, in the UK) won't deserve good government, good elections, anything of value at all. We will continue to deserve the ever-abounding chaos and the spiritual dereliction that lies at its root.

[pacalo]

115. In a large community like this, there's bound to be a lot of topics

that don't appeal to everyone, so take those threads that don't interest you with a grain of salt & simply skip over them, then post those topics that you'd like to discuss. I'm with you about the endless "who's going to run" posts; they are pointless. Although I'm here for the main purpose of keeping up with the latest political news, I do like some levity.

[wundermaus]

117. Thank you for your wakeup call!

No excuses, now... the narcoleptic nightmare is ending... Tis time to attend to Liberty's wounds!

[Kolesar]

120. It's only a humble message board

This is not a think tank, although at moments this place has popped open some important stuff.

Consider that the act of participating in a message board tends to select for people who have some amount of time on their hands and a need to chit-chat with...somebody. Hence, you are going to find the goofiness.

I think you rant had some good writing in there. I hope you parse out some of that and compose some letters to the editor. Or even better, run for office.

[Straight Shooter]

121. Exiled, I feel for you, I really do.

It's disappointing and it's frustrating to see threads of substance sink, and "Look, something shiny!" threads receive lots of K&R's.

OTOH, there are many topics posted which do make it to the Greatest page (witness your own thread, here), which means most of us come to DU with the desire to learn from the others here, to share our knowledge with one another, and to respect or at least tolerate others' opinions when we disagree.

I have become a political junkie thanks to DU (and BuzzFlash), but it is the back-and-forth discourse of DU that has encouraged me to examine my own viewpoints which are often subjectively based and need to be broadened by the knowledge and experience of others on this forum. Those viewpoints encompass everything from the mundane and trivial to the complex and deathly serious, and I appreciate the enlightenment I receive no matter what the subject is. (I avoid any celebrity-sensational type threads, though.)

As for the fluffy threads, I think sometimes people are looking for feedback and validation of their own personal feelings about something. It's kind of like when you call a friend and gripe about something petty. That doesn't mean you ignore serious subjects, but too much seriousness is not good for the soul. We all need to play.

There are certain members of DU who always have extremely thoughtful, well-written threads with serious, deliberate content. H20 Man is obviously one of those members. When I see a post of his, I read it. If I haven't seen one in a while, I do a search, just in case I missed it. So, search for the DU'ers that write on subjects you want to participate in, and just let the others go.

You're a wonderful writer and extremely diplomatic. I commend you for sharing your viewpoints as you have. :thumbsup:

[siligut]

125. It’s a balancing act.

We live in an age of sound bites; we are aware but not immune.

[hfojvt]

126. I think I have contributed in this regard

I posted a thread about housing poverty and it made the greatest page with 11 votes. Not much discussion, but a copy is still on the first page of the Kansas forum. I also posted a thread about the tax issue, which was widely criticized, and then copied (badly IMO) by another thread which made the greatest page with about 30 votes. I also posted my LTTEs about the Bush tax cuts. They seem to have gone unnoticed in the election reports/celebrations.

So the threads are there if you K & R them. Maybe check the 2nd and 3rd page of GD. You also have the option of starting your own.

You have a point too about the organizations that are working. Unfortunately I am not registered with any of those, but the one about housing came from faithfulamerica.org. Maybe I should re-join the AFL-CIO's e-activist network.

[kiahzero]

127. What's there to talk about on the issues that we agree on?

Very little, that's what.

[InvisibleTouch]

128. But see, this is a DISCUSSION site, and part of that...

...means that people will talk about "fluff" topics or gossip. People will talk about what catches their attention at any given moment - what they're amazed or amused or curious about, even if it's not a weighty subject. It's a bit of a stretch, IMO, to say that because there's still a war in Iraq and because people are still homeless and because there are still ridiculous tax breaks for the rich, no one should devote any time or interest to less relevant things. Life is a series of less relevant things. We can't tackle or agonize over the big issues every minute.

And part of the benefit of discussing things here, or reading the discussions, is that while we may not agree on some topics among ourselves, we know we're at least among fellow Dems/liberals/progressives, and not among right-wing nutbars. Wouldn't you rather hang out with Dems than with Rethugs, no matter what the topic of conversation is?

To me, there's a good mix here of serious topics and hard-core info, along with "lesser" topics and just plain socializing. The various groups do a pretty good job of dividing up the topics and the focus.

[rpgamerd00d]

129. You seem to be a little naive about Internet Discussion Forums

There isn't a single internet discussion forum in the world (aside from highly technical forums) that meets your ideal.

The entire point of a discussion forum is to talk about topics that people have different views on. If everyone has the same view, you'd have threads that have an original post, with 100s of "I agree" replies, and that would not only be boring, but pointless.

It is also naive to think that, somehow, Democrats are "superior" beings, capable of only pure thoughts and perfect harmony with each other. News flash : we're just people. We come from all walks of life, we have different life experiences and views, and different opinions on what is right and wrong. The differences within the Democratic Party are no different than the differences between our party and the Republican party, except that our internal differences usually revolve around implementation, whereas our differences with the Republicans usually revolves around basic philosophy.

True awareness and understanding does not come from agreement with each other - it comes from disagreement, which leads to conflict, which leads to a breakdown of barriers, which leads to compromise, which leads to understanding.

[happydreams]

133. Its what always happens to a medium of communication

when it gets large. The masses wallow in a cesspool of commercial values.

[political_outcast]

134. "The Hate rose to its climax. The voice of Goldstein had become an actual sheep's bleat,.."

from 1984:


It was nearly eleven hundred, and in the RECORDS DEPARTMENT, they were dragging the chairs out of the cubicles and grouping them in the centre of the hall opposite the big telescreen, in preparation for the Two Minutes Hate. The next moment a hideous, grinding speech, as of some monstrous machine running without oil, burst from the big telescreen at the end of the room. It was a noise that set one's teeth on edge and bristled the hair at the back of one's neck. The Hate had started. As usual, the face of Emmanuel Goldstein, the Enemy of the People, had flashed on to the screen. There were hisses here and there among the audience. Goldstein was the renegade and backslider who once, long ago (how long ago nobody quite remembered), had been one of the leading figures of the Party, almost on a level with BIG BROTHER himself, and then had engaged in counter-revolutionary activities, had been condemned to death and had mysteriously escaped and disappeared.

The programmes of the Two Minutes Hate varied from day to day, but there was none in which Goldstein was not the principal figure. He was the primal traitor, the earliest defiler of the Party's purity. All subsequent crimes against the Party, all treacheries, acts of sabotage, heresies, deviations, sprang directly out of his teaching. Somewhere or other he was still alive and hatching his conspiracies: perhaps somewhere beyond the sea, under the protection of his foreign paymasters, perhaps even - so it was occasionally rumoured - in some hiding-place in Oceania itself.

...
In its second minute the Hate rose to a frenzy. People were leaping up and down in their places and shouting at the tops of their voices in an effort to drown the maddening bleating voice that came from the screen. In a lucid moment Winston found that he was shouting with the others and kicking his heel violently against the rung of his chair. The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but, on the contrary, that it was impossible to avoid joining in. A hideous ecstasy of fear and vindictiveness, a desire to kill, to torture, to smash faces in with a sledge-hammer, seemed to flow through the whole group of people like an electric current, turning one even against one's will into a grimacing, screaming lunatic...

The Hate rose to its climax. The voice of Goldstein had become an actual sheep's bleat, and for an instant the face changed into that of a sheep. Then the sheep-face melted into the figure of a Eurasian soldier who seemed to be advancing, huge and terrible, his sub-machine gun roaring, and seeming to spring out of the surface of the screen. But in the same moment, drawing a deep sigh of relief from everybody, the hostile figure melted into the face of BIG BROTHER...

[baby_mouse]

136. Excellent thread.

Nothing more to say than maybe if you (and the rest of us) post more like these the tone will be raised... It takes a lot of time, though doesn't it? Far simpler to just launch yourself at a keyboard with an unprocessed idea and spurt it out in 1 paragraph. :)

I've seen a couple of other useful threads today that are quite hopeful. Flame wars are so tedious...

[truedelphi]

137. When you think it is bleak, remember this one thing:

The internet is what is winning the elections lately.

June 2006 Debra Bowen, State Registrar for California. An underfunded campaign. ALmost no mention by mainstream press. Underdog. Winner by a landslide over corporate sponsored, main media publicized candidate.

November 2006 Democratic Party over Republican Party. Now controls House, now controls Senate.
Do you think the media did this? Naw, a moment after whatever hard hitting scandal erupted from the backside of some Republican, the media would focus on an off-event: Brittany vs. Fedderline,
or Kerry stumbling around inside a mis-told joke.

The media did nothing to aid the Dems. It was the internet and the free media and the blo-o-sphere
that gave them the victory.

DU is a part of that. And one of the great good things is all the posts that lead me away from DU to some free media site I'd never heard about till mentioned on DU.

[civildisoBDence]

138. SIMPLE solution:

If you want more serious discussion, go to DailyKos.

If you want less serious discussion, go to HuffPo.

Goldilocks had a similar problem.

Newsprism

[WHAT]

139. Do you remember the 700 club?...

it's either gone or there is a diminishing number of new posters contributing to discussion, regardless of membership numbers. (about the argument of decay of discussion being a result of the growing contribution of new members)

I, too, miss the quality of discussion pre '04. It doesn't feel natural to me because people are drawn to quality so that the quality of discussion is degraded it might indicate deliberate subversion similar to corporate media...focus on personality, but first set-up the personality as an icon of the issue so you can obfuscate the issue while attacking it via the icon. Make sense? I see very similar things here but I'm partly fascinated by the manipulation.

Also, I commensurate with your perceptions and it is not a singular pov as demonstrated by the recommends.

Remember, we have always been at war with _______...

[LSK]

145. Right the fuck on!!!!

I hardly venture into these threads on Richards or eating meat or breast feeding. They are a waste of time that can be addressed when we are not occupying another country, when we all have universal health care and when we are not in debt up to our ears.

Great post. GD does seem lacking in substance lately.

[trumad]

151. So--- we should stay on one track?

It's general discussion---not Iraq only discussion....

[LSK]

158. nevermind

[Exiled in America]

153. Thanks to all - I've appreciated responses both agreeing and disagreeing

Seems like a lot of interesting and valid points have been made. I'll keep checking in (and post some other topical stuff) when I get home again. :)

[GoneOffShore]

155. thank you for a highly thoughtful post

It's good to see something other than posts about smoking, breastfeeding, Fundamentalish SUV drivers, with ugly bumper stickers.

Perhaps some of those post need their very own section - Could there be a Rants and Flames Forum for that type of post?

[SeattleGirl]

161. A very good and thoughtful post, Exiled.

I just read it over my lunch break, and need to get back to work, but I wanted to say that I agree with a lot of what you said in your OP. I sometimes get tired of so many thread being about who should/shouldn't run in '08, people beating each other up because one person refuses to "convert" to the other person's preferred candidate, etc. (I don't read a lot of those threads, and I certainly am not saying people should not be allowed to post them.) But there are a lot of important things that aren't being talked about as much as I would like to see them talked about. I've read threads started by people on some of the issues you bring up, and yeah, they often sink like stones. I often comment on them, recommend them, kick them, but still, I blink and they have already sunk to the next page.

I hope you do post more about these things, and share your information with us. I know that for me, DU has been a font of information that I would only much later see in the MSM, or sometimes, not see at all. I appreciate it when people provide this information, because I have learned so much. I won't stop reading DU, but I will more actively search for these types of posts. Sometimes there are so many posts of the same flavor that I feel impatient or discouraged, or whatever.

Again, thanks for your post.

[shanti]

163. let's start at the beginning...

you've been here how many years? four? your profile says 2005, that's ONE year.

[Exiled in America]

164. Did you read even the first two paragrpahs of the post ?

If you did, you would have your answer.

The reason I pointed out that I've been around - in some form - for many years is because my current incarnation does not have a high post count.

And in case you can't be bothered to look at the post before responding again, I'll save you the time by saying, no, I'm not a ban jumper or breaking rules or doing anything the administrators doesn't already fully know about.

But I have been around as a poster for many years. :)

[trumad]

167. Then who were you?

[shanti]

188. ok

fair enough :)

[Vidar]

168. Very well reasoned, Exiled in America. I agree.

[Blue_Tires]

170. ttt

[barbtries]

171. you bring up some really good points

and i will keep an eye out for your posts. there are other issues that matter to me as well:

the war in Iraq
violence in the streets
eradicating the bush empire from american politics etc

my time is limited. when i come to DU i generally go to the greatest page and there i pick and choose...i have not read a single word about, whether its ok for people to breast feed in public, whether all cars should require breathalizer tests to start, whether human beings have an intrinsic right to kill animals, whether parents are ok in spanking their kids, how bad of a racist is michael richards, and on and on.

either that or the video forum - love that video forum! thanks

[bobbolink]

172. POVERTY is not a "sexy" topic here.

If I wasn't poor, it would sadden me.

AS it is, it makes me crazy.

What are we poor folk--chopped liver???

:nuke:

[Lorien]

173. One issue could easily render all the issues you've listed as irrelevant

Global warming. What are we doing to enable ourselves to have a future at all?

[Exiled in America]

174. Man, yes, that is a very good point! I am really bad about this.

I have a historical blind spot to environmental responsibility. I totally, boldly admit that. But you are very right - that is a critical issue, and I need to continue to try and be more responsible in talking about it, advocating the best policy, and working to restructure my own life to be more environmentally responsible.

[Kerrytravelers]

176. Very interesting and well written post.

I agree with much of what you wrote. And while I do find myself participating in some of the fluff, I also find myself bookmarking the more interesting posts, even if I don't comment. Often, I go back to my bookmarks, copy the articles, links, thoughts, whatever they are and then, with the proper acknowledgments attaches, email them out to my emil list of people who are interested in such topics.

So, why don't I comment on these threads? Well, sometimes I simply don't know enough about the topic to say anything for fear of looking stupid. I can't argue tax law or the finer points of presidential elections prior to my birth- all of which I've seen argued here at DU. If I'm not confidant, I keep my mouth shut since there are some very rude and downright cruel people to be found on DU. :scared: Thankfully, I find my way clear of them most the time and spend my DU time with the friendlier, kinder DUers!

I also find going to other forums besides GD for interesting topics.

I don't see this as telling people to stop all fluff, but just to remember that there are other topics of importance, too.

[WildEyedLiberal]

177. Several threads right now are proving your point

The same people who live to create divisive controversial bullshit are doing it right now, even as they claim to be above the very shit they start. DU can be such a great place at times, but it can also be a sewer.

[gollygee]

178. We have the ability to think about and discuss more than

one or two things at a time.

What frustrates me is that I feel very helpless about most of the (very valid) concerns you have listed. I am really bothered by the power corporations have. It feels like we're moving further and further into feudalism. But I feel helpless about that, and I have a hard time seeing any hope. The other issues are more tangible for me. That probably isn't a good answer but it's the truth. But I definitely agree with you about what you've said. I just have a harder time grasping things where I feel hopeless and helpless. I don't feel like I have a starting point to grab onto. But I do read articles about these issues when they're linked here, and I email them off to people I think will be interested.

[NNadir]

182. Except that your pet issue is not my pet issue. I'm a climate change guy.

I don't give a rat's ass about the alleged "corporatocracy." It's not on my top ten list.

What you take seriously is what you take seriously and is not any more officially Democratic than any other issue people wish to discuss on DU.

DU is a forum for people to discuss ideas. It's a community. Believe me when I say that I get pissed off frequently here with my fellow DUers. On occassion I get in trouble and at least on one occassion I considered never posting here again.

But the point is, I think, not to make sure that NNadir's pet issue is on the top of everyone else's agenda. The point is to give a voice to the people. Now maybe you don't like that everyone does not think as you think they should think, but a public forum needs to be, well, public.

Diversity is good, especially a diversity of viewpoints. This doesn't mean that every viewpoint is valid or worth pursuing, but the opportunity airing of concerns is valid. Maybe you think breathalizers are a silly issue, but maybe you've never loved someone killed by a drunk driver. Maybe you think breast feeding is a trivial matter, but maybe you have also not been involved in child health issues. You think corporate control is the most important moral issue, and I think corporate activities pale before say, Stalinist actiivities. Why do you assert that you know better than I what is important?

In 2004, my preferred candidate did not win the nomination, but the speculation here about the candidates - the positive and the negatives - gave me the best sense of who I was voting for that I have ever had in my life. I'm in my fifties and I consider myself politically aware, so this is saying something. I like when people express opinions about the possible candidates, because it gives me pause to think about this candidates, to get to know them.

I am grateful that my fellow DUers - even the ones I don't like - keep me aware of everything, not just what is important to me.

[Exiled in America]

187. You will not address climate change without addressing corporate accountability...

The two are inseparable. Changing the trend of environmental abuse will not happen without addressing the root ways in which corporations functions as sociopaths with the single goal of profit at the expense of everything else. Changing that system is the only way to stop global warming.

That said, you had a broader point. In response to the rest of your post, I think you misunderstand me. I don't think that the issues I mentioned should just be important to me, nor do I consider them pet, though I understand that you do. This is just where we disagree - I consider them to be the most important issues, period. And as such they should be a priority focus for everyone. Yes, I do believe you can judge those things. Not everything is relative. I would attempt to make a compelling argument for how at least some of the issues I mentioned are actually are the ROOT of issues that you care about the most.

You might be persuaded by my case or your might not, and I accept that either way. But I do think the case can be made that we regularly ignore the root causes of a lot of things we like to talk about, and that seems like a shame to me.

[cascadiance]

190. I think that one has to separate severity vs. priority when looking at issues like this!

In my mind climate change is probably the most severe of the issues that have to be dealt with. I will agree with NNadir there. But the highest priority is solving the problems with the corporatocracy as Exiled mentions here is what blocks meaningful progress in almost every other space, including global warming. Without substantively fixing the corporate influence over politics problem soon, these other issues can't be dealt with meaningfully, no matter how important they are. That is why prior to the election, election process integrity was at my highest priority as if it was completely out of control, could have sabotaged everything. Now that that's past us, it is still a very severe problem, but the priority has slipped quite a bit on it, as it doesn't block other things.

Now I think the priorities are impeachment investigations (as that needs to happen if we want to stop half of the damage that this administration has already done), and clean elections public campaign financing, which is necessary to take the money out of politics and hopefully getting rid of or minimizing the influence of the corporatocracy. The sooner we can take care of those issues, the better off we will be in trying to solve the other more severe problems that need addressing (climate change and other environmental issues, stopping the wars, addressing the debt and tax reform, education, social security, health care, immigration, outsourcing, etc.).

[NNadir]

195. That is pure nonsense.

Climate change actually has to do with issues that have nothing to do with corporations. Poverty, for instance, in places like Chad, leads to deforestation. It is international and results from the activities of all human beings, irrespective of their social system.

Actually, climate change, which was predicted by Arrhenius before Exxon existed, is about physics and not social policy and economic systems. It is about biology - population dynamics specifically - and not about NAFTA or CAFTA or any other crap that was important to Ralph Nader and not at all important to me.

From my perspective part of the problem with climate change is that people try to frame climate change in terms of their pet perspective, just as you are doing here. To my mind you are trivializing the issue of climate change by offering a facile explanation for it with no evidence. You say they "corporatism" and "climate change" are inseparable. How? I have been thinking about climate change, the chemistry, the physics and the technology of it for some twenty years, and I find your fiat declaration totally without merit. If I have spent twenty years thinking about the issue without ever thinking that the root cause is what you claim, there are only two possibilities, either I am stupid or you are wrong.

To prove that I am stupid, you should produce something called evidence or data. Here is some evidence that I am not stupid. In 1980, the former Soviet Union, a people's workers state that was proud at having smashed imperialist capitalism, a nation decided not controlled by corporations, produced 3.027 billion tons of carbon dioxide. Japan, meanwhile, with a larger economy, dominated by corporations and a large population produced 937 billion tons. I could use this is a data point in a claim that going corporate can reduce carbon dioxide output by 2/3, but I won't, because I like to acknowledge that issues are complex.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tableh1co2.xls


It happens that some corporate activities are involved, but only in the sense that some human beings work for corporations. Yes, corporations are not controlled by demons by hell, but they are controlled by people with jobs, families, responsibilities and yes, even ethics. You may wish to claim that people consume because corporations control their brains, but the actual reason people consume is that it is easy and comfortable. The moral questions about consumption are matters of individual responsibility and not about external mind control by monolithic bad guys working for godless evil in corporate boardrooms.

For the record, people began burning coal in China hundreds of years ago, before anyone ever heard of a corporation. You are just as myopic as you accuse everyone else of being. You want everybody to think that there is a single demon - a single issue - that is the cause of all woes. This type of thinking is unsophisticated, silly and simplistic.

I really don't care what you think of DU or the discourse here. To my mind you are part of the problem you purport to bemoan. Sometimes I get frustrated with what I see here, and sometimes I am inclined to leave the place. But I try to avoid before I depart giving lectures about what people are missing by not thinking what I think.

[Exiled in America]

209. You're missing the only point that matters.

None of the historical facts about people burning coal hundreds of years ago matters. First of all, hundreds of years ago, no one was producing the level of things harmful to the planet that we have become capable of in modern times thanks to the industrial revolution and thanks to the affect of corporations.

Second of all, you keep talking about the origins of the problem and how they have roots in deep history. But that's never been my argument. My argument is that it is that now, today, in the present world - you can't intelligently discuss fixing the problem with out a serious discussion about corporate accountability and without address many corporation's role in absolutely working against all environmental efforts. And you know I'm right about that. So, my issue is inseparably connected to your issue, whether you like it or not.

There are other choices besides your either / or fallacy of "either I am stupid or you are wrong" - though, failing to grasp that would seem to be an argument for the former. But we'll set that aside for the moment since I don't think that's true. The other possibility is that you haven't completely understood or have misinterpreted or misrepresented the point I am trying to make. So let me try to be clear:

My point was not to say that corporations caused climate change. Though I think anyone would have to admit that the impact of the industrial age on climate change has been significant, and there is of course plenty of data to back that up - in fact pretty much all credible science on the subject reflects this significant spike in climate change in the 25 years pair-able with our increasing industrialization and consumerism. The notion that corporations have contributed to an increasing rate of climate change is pretty much not in dispute by any credible source I am aware of. And I think that would include you. You were objective to the idea that corporations "caused" climate change, which is not what I intended to imply.

I did however say that corporations are the root part of the problem today. Root of what problem? I answer, they are at the root of the problem of what is stopping us from taking the appropriate steps we need to take to protect the environment and either stop or reverse climate change trends. We can not succeed in doing any of those things unless we succeed in find a way to make corporations stop doing what they are currently doing. This fact, is also not in any serious dispute by any respected source I am aware of.

So that was my point. You said my "pet issue" is not the same as your pet issue. My point is that my issue, is inseparably connected to your issue, assuming that one of your goals is to try and create change in how we act toward the environment.

One other thing - you write:

It happens that some corporate activities are involved, but only in the sense that some human beings work for corporations. Yes, corporations are not controlled by demons by hell, but they are controlled by people with jobs, families, responsibilities and yes, even ethics. You may wish to claim that people consume because corporations control their brains, but the actual reason people consume is that it is easy and comfortable. The moral questions about consumption are matters of individual responsibility and not about external mind control by monolithic bad guys working for godless evil in corporate boardrooms.

You're implying that I am demonizing corporations. I have two responses to that. First, the fact that corporations are controlled by "real" people with jobs and families seems largely irrelevant to any point I am making. Of course that is true. However, corporations still follow a structure. They are not wildly different from each other, they have a pattern of sameness, which is why we call it an institution. There are certain basic principles and rules that remain the same for any public company on the market. And because this is true, we can and must make institutional criticism - observing the patterns that we can recognize in an institution and pointing out their flaws.

In this case, the problem is not that the people are evil or that corporations are inherently "evil." The problem is that corporations are inherently (and required by law to be) a-moral. Not immoral, but amoral. Corporations - all of them - are required by law to put the maximization of profit for shareholders above all other concerns. Note that this does not mean a corporation never has "other concerns" but they must legally always, always be funneled through the question of profitability.

The problem with that is two fold: first, not everything that is right or necessary for the good of society as a whole or for the world in general is always profitable. It is not profitable for corporations to pay people a living wage, it is much more profitable to have exploitable labor, which is why companies use it all over the world. It is not profitable to develop cleaner ways to produce their goods that would help the environment because its more costly to do that that it is to pollute, which is why so many corporations are so intensely resistant to regulation. There is a clear and absolutely demonstrable tendency for corporations to gravitate way from questions of ethical or responsible practices and toward whatever is more profitable for the bottom line.

That does not have to be because corporations are demonic evil forces. It is simply because they are not DESIGNED to be moral institutions - which is why there is SUPPOSED to be a strong and independent government that works for the people that sets the RULES by which a corporation can operate appropriately. Corps only job should be to make as much money as possible in every legal way possible. But the governments job should be to define what is legal in such a way that it is humane and just. The government has failed to do that, largely thanks to the manipulation of the government by corporations. And corporations share some human culpability, by simply recognizing the unethical or unjust consequences of many of their decisions and choosing to do them anyway in the name of profit.

None of these things is particularly radical, nor is it unfairly demonizing corporations. It is an institutional criticism of the system.

This ties into the second problem with the fact that corporations are legally required to be solely concerned with the maximization of profit: there must be some entity somewhere that is a gatekeeper. In other words, its ok if corporations are to be solely concerned with profit, but SOME entity MUST be concerned with social and economic justice, or put another way - concerned with protecting the human element from the profit-at-any-cost-driven machine. Corporations do not serve both roles well - it is a contradiction.

So, the fact that right now you have corporations with enormous power on the world stage, and with enormous influence over the government of many many countries means that right now corporations hold most of the cards. What we see is that the lack of checks and balances on corporations has an impact on MOST other issues that are critical to us today. We won't do anything to turn back climate change without changing corporations. We won't have better conditions for poor people around the world without addressing the exploitation of labor. We won't have a less imperialistic or hegemonious government until we address the corporate/economic/profit interests that are behind the doctrine. And on and on and on.

You are not stupid. But I am also not wrong.

[buddysmellgood]

184. That was an excellent post.

[Jcrowley]

191. You're number of rec's

shows you've spoken well and stated an important point that resonates with many. Hat's off.

:toast:

K&R

[Leftist78]

192. Bravo!!!

That is quite possibly the single best post on DU I've ever read. I've been an on again off again DUer since about '03, and the reason for the off again part is because of exactly what you're talking about. The simple truth is that too many people here are amateur pundits, who care more about the politics than they do about the people.

[Blue_Roses]

193. Great post!

I find that I only go through one page in each forum and then move on to another these days. There is too much bickering on petty issues. It gets REAL old.

However, when I feel the frustration of our government building up, you can't find a better "venting" board.:) Also, I think we as a country are so "Bush fatigued" that we find ourselves chasing our tail, especially since the negative energy of this administration sucks the life out of us.

I too, would like to see more dialog on the issues you discussed and I will be looking for more of your posts.:D

[Mythsaje]

194. I posted this the other day...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2815476

At least it didn't slip into oblivion...

[mistertrickster]

196. Good points--people seem to get outraged by the small things more than the big.

It's as if 600,000 dead Iraqi civilians at the hands of the American military is just to horrible to even deal with.

Ann Landers once ran about six weeks of letters as to whether it was better to have toilet paper hang from the front of the roll or the back . . .

Remember, Jonathon Swift's "Gulliver Travels," one group hated the other because they broke their eggs from the 'wrong end.'

[Rex]

197. LBN is a good forum for news.

Best on the net.

[toddaa]

198. K & R and tying this in with Wiley50's OAXACA posts

Please, please, please read Wiley50's posts.

[FredStembottom]

199. Wow! I think this is the 5th or 6th "Fed up with DU" posting I've seen.

Just in the last 4 days or so!

And what always gets me..........is that I never have noticed whatever the posting is complaining about.

I must read DU differently.

I start with "Greatest". Always meaty and good there. Often don't get any further.

When I DO go to a specific forum, I pass over about 8 out of 10 subject headers (thread threaders? whatever they are called) before I click on anything.

Why read everything?

I respectfully submit that the one thing that these "Fed up" threads have in common is that the complainer seems to read all threads compulsively.

I don't think that's the idea.

Pick and choose and enjoy! :-)

[wickerwoman]

200. This is what I learned from teaching....

black and white, polarizing issues are easy to talk about. It's easy for me to say something about an issue that I fully understand (like racism, sexism, censorship, war...) That's why those threads get a lot of replies... because they're accessable to people who don't have a PhD in Economics. More complex issues are more difficult for the general reader to form an opinion about. That's not to say we shouldn't confront such issues, simply that you need to give people more time to form an opinion about them.

When I see a thread about labor rights or globalization or health care, I'll read it and I'll try to understand it but generally I won't post on it because damned if I know how to solve the problem. I'm still making up my mind and trying to understand the nuances of some complex issues. And while I'm ruminating on the more complex issues, I like to relax by firing off a few rounds on abortion or the Bush twins. And I think DU needs to be a place where people can do both... relax and socialize as well as learn some new things.

By the very nature of the fact that many people understand "trivial" issues like breastfeeding and vegetarianism and few have a nuanced understanding of what to do about health care and outsourcing, the biggest forums and the longest discussions will inevitably be about issues that people can easily wrap their heads around.

So I would recommend that you keep posting and just trust that people are reading and thinking, even when they don't have much to say on the issue. And as a side note (and this isn't in reference to any particular person's post), I see a lot of threads which just string together quotes with links from about twenty different sources and never explain what the connection is or why anyone should care... I think that's just poor writing and you can't always blame the reader for giving up after a few paragraphs. Some posters need to keep in mind that most of their audience doesn't have a super sophisticated background in economics, political science, history, etc. Actually taking ten minutes to write an introduction and conclusion or to explain some of the background might result in more replies.

So I think 1.) It's OK for DU to be different things to different people. For me it's a source of information. For others, it's a platform for activism or a place to relax and socialize. The reason DU has different sized forums that move at different paces is to cater to all the different kinds of people who come here. 2.) There are a handful of really brilliant people on any given topic on DU and about 90,000 laypeople. Cut the laypeople some slack.

[KennedyGuy]

201. Great post..all you have to do is mention the military and the pitchforks come out

and the mob begins to yell "murderer..Killers"
And I have no issue with them having that opinion, they should just start their own thread and then we can ignore if we wish. I is quite disturbing to see threads honoring the fallen troops and having screaming that they deserved what they got.

[Stand and Fight]

203. Proud to be the 100th Recommendation to the Greatest!

I think that your thread and the points that you bring up are spot on. While I continue to value DU a great deal, the last six months or so have left me wondering if the community has its priorities in the right place. While I can certainly appreciate a discussion about such things as a celebrity's racist comments, such issues are no where near as pressing as health care, out of control corporate welfare, or dangerous American hegemony.

I have grown increasingly frustrated with the state of health care in this country because a person like my wife is unable to get health care because of a pre-existing condition that is controllable with medication and regular doctor's visits. One of her medications, Enbrel, retails for nearly $2,000 for a month's supply of eight shots, and with the other medications her pharmaceudical bill is nearly $3,000 out of pocket without insurance. The pre=existing condition? Rheumatoid-fucking-arthritis! Yeah, so I have considered posting a thread to ask DU about any ideas they may have, but have declined in doing so because the community is more concerned about things that really have no long lasting meaning.

:yourock::yourock::yourock:Three cheers for you because you have said something that needs to be said, and while some here will no doubt attack you, I celebrate your thread, as it is a clear reminder of why I CONTINUE to be a member of the Democratic Underground. It is nice to see that others are noticing that while DU continues to be a great place at its core, there is a number of disappointing things that go on here. Unfortunately, I don't think it is just a symptom of this being an election year, but I do know that I can somewhat understand it... I mean, our party has spent twelve years in the Wilderness, and FINALLY we have control in Washington. So, I think that could be representative of DU seemingly falling short, but have faith... Keep your chin up, keep throwing your views out there. You're being heard. Others feel the same way that you do.

[lonestarnot]

206. I would be 100 something, but too late to recommend.

[SmokingJacket]

207. It's the nature of the beast. Discussions on the internet naturally gravitate

toward the smaller, less complex issues, because it's easier to post about them.

As much as I would like to see people come up with interesting ideas about the coming water crisis, for example, I know few people including myself are educated enough on that issue to say much.

We also tend not to post much about that which we agree on, because those posts don't piss us off so much. We're more likely to nod and move on.

Also, we've already gone over and over the big issues -- YES we need to raise the minimum wage, YES there is a health care crisis. They're extremely important issues. But they aren't new, like the Michael Richards shit.

If you want interesting, in-depth analysis, it makes more sense to go get a copy of The Nation or The New Yorker.

Internet forums are better suited for the quick, the easy-to-grasp, the new, and the inflammatory.

[porphyrian]

215. Re: water issues

If we can pump oil from a desert to the sea, there's no reason we can't pump water from ocean desalinization plants to the desert. At the moment, it may seem cost prohibitive, but that won't last once everyone starts doing it. I know you weren't looking for an answer to this here, and maybe another thread should be started on this, but I had to say it before my weekend memory dump.

[SmokingJacket]

217. Hmm... maybe one day we'll be using the same pipes...

but in the opposite direction....

[Jcrowley]

218. Militarism

Number One cause of Golbal Warming.

[Exiled in America]

223. Corporate Interests.

number one cause of militarism.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

219. "I love you guys" - Cartman from "Southpark"

[Cleita]

220. Okay, I agree.

There are those who do try to post relevant information that doesn't get a whole lot of interest like the exploitative posts you mention. The other forums have such posts that no one visits much other than the posters. I find the journals are also pretty informative if you want to scan through them.

[agincourt]

221. There is a lot of stuff on this board,

that is posted to dilute the message. Conservative media-pigs have unlimited funding so they probably hire people to post shit on this board that dilutes the message, but is "neutral" enough to get past the mods. I've seen many times when someone gets a great head shot at the RW brown-shirts, that there will be half a dozen posters to undermine the individuals points, but not quite far enough to be a freeper's post.

[nam78_two]

222. I agree with most of what you say with one caveat

You left out the environment :)...Threads on the environment often sink here and rarely make it to the greatest page, when posts on Freeper spelling can almost always make it to the greatest page :-/ (hey I ain't holier than anyone-I have laughed about Freeper spelling too but I don't see how that gets on the greatest page, when I see posts about environmental issues, homelessness, depleted uranium, vets with ptsd etc. sink like they don't matter). I think DU overall is fairly good about issues regarding Iraqis (at least thats my impression)-they typically get their place in the sun.

But the environment, poverty etc. do not get much attention. I would read your journal :toast:

Edit: Oh crap..too late to recommend...Oh well just a kick then :-/...

[Dastard Stepchild]

224. I use DU for entertainment...

So I tend to not tax myself too intellectually here. Speaking for myself, I don't touch the heavy issues because I get enough of that in my social policy classes already.... though I will make very brief contributions when I feel inspired. But I just don't have the time to invest in a truly lengthy, well-thought out and inspired dialogue on social issues, though I can appreciate that others might desperately want that here. I like the fluffery because, at the end of the day, it's about all I have left in me. And I wonder if there isn't a fair number of people who find themselves equally drawn here for entertainment.
I think that is an appropriate use of this site, too.