Is Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Anti-Semitic

[DemocratSinceBirth]

For purposes of this poll please use the commonly accepted definition of anti-semitism which means hatred of Jews.

[ck4829]

1. He has met with Jewish groups before

Talked with them, shook their hands, told a joke or two with them.

Albeit, these Jewish groups think that Israel should be dismantled.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. I'm Sure Pat Buchanan, David Duke, and George Lincoln Rockwell Shook Some Jewish Hands...

In fact George Lincoln Rockwell even started some sort of "friendship" with Alex Haley, a prominent African American and author of Roots, when Haley was interviewing him for Playboy.


Maybe I'm a reactionary liberal but I believe homophobes, bigots, racists, anti-semites, misogynists, etc tera should be excluded from polite conversation...

[question everything]

41. Bravo! (nt)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. Can Someone Please Name These Zionists?

"What have the Zionists done for the American people that the US administration considers itself obliged to blindly support these infamous aggressors? Is it not because they have imposed themselves on a substantial portion of the banking, financial, cultural and media sectors?"

-Mahmoud Ahmadinejad


Jews are prominent in banking, finance, culture, and the media but the research suggests they don't come close to controlling any of those parts of society. If there is research to suggest otherwise since I am always in search of learning new things I would like someone to share it with me.


And we still having confronted the problem of conflating Zionism with Judaism....

[k_jerome]

94. Barbara Streisand, Shylock. nt.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

3. Six "No" votes?

Well, that would certainly make him the world's first pro-semitic holocaust denier.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. I Forgot About The Holocaust Denial

I was fixated on his latest diatribe that the Joos run things...


I think a couple of Joos in really high places get together every Friday night at Katz's Delicatessen and share their plans on how to run the world for the following week ...


SARCASM

[rockymountaindem]

11. No we usually hang out at Rosenberg's Bakery

It's more of a late night coffee/kugel meeting than a pastrami sandwich dinner one.

[Dorian Gray]

77. Heh!

They used to meet at the 2nd Avenue Deli until it closed last year. (BOO! Best Pastrami on Rye in the city. Ever!)

[Marie26]

56. 35% percent say "no"

And people wonder why Bush has 35% approval ratings. I think about 30% of the population can blind themselves to the obvious if it goes against what they'd like to believe.

[cali]

58. How many are trolls?

Let's be generous and say 10%. That still leaves a quite a few who just don't want to acknowledge the obvious.

[whistle]

5. Does a bear shit in the woods?

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. I'm surprised the no votes can walk through these woods, for all the shit. n/t

[leesa]

7. Jimmy Carter said the apartheid practiced by Israel against the

Palestinians far exceeded anything that ever occurred in South Africa, but I guess he's just anti-Semitic too.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Did He Also Say The Joos Control Hollywood?

"What have the Zionists done for the American people that the US administration considers itself obliged to blindly support these infamous aggressors? Is it not because they have imposed themselves on a substantial portion of the (B)anking, (F)inancial, (C)ultural and (M)edia sectors?"

-Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

[cali]

12. What utter nonsense.

Ahmadinejad is clearly anti-semitic. It isn't about criticism of Israel with him. For the love of pete, even Juan Cole speaks to Ahmadinejad's obsession with Jews. That's certainly not true of Jimmy Carter.

[Freddie Stubbs]

17. Palestinians living in Israel get to vote and serve in the Knesset (parliament)

How many blacks were allowed to vote and serve in the S. Africa Parliament under apartheid?

[The Stranger]

27. That is a horribly misleading post.

Palestinians living in Israel get to vote and serve in the Knesset (parliament)

Only some very small portion of Palestinians are entitled to vote. The overwhelming and vast majority are not allowed to vote, and remain under a brutal military occupation after a half century. They are not even allowed to have their own state to vote for their own people.

And, Jimmy Carter is right, it is very much in the same way Black South Africans indigenous to South Africa were disenfranchised and White South Africa still claimed it was a "democracy." Black South Africans were forced into "townships," the Palestinians to "refugee camps."

Both face(d) a demographics issue. Too many indigenous people live there to be allowed to vote and still have a "majority" of non-indigenous people in power. The only way to maintain "majority" rule is to disenfranchise the indigenous people or force them off the land (usually by brutalizing them and settling their land).

[cali]

31. Yes, the occupation is

wrong, and though I don't think SA apartheid is the perfect analogy, the comparison has some validity, but it's clear that the poster you're responding to was speaking of Israeli Arabs. Those living in the WB and Gaza don't have Israeli citizenship. Whether they should or not, is a different question.

[The Stranger]

34. It is the same question. They are the same people. That some have

citizenship and others do not is not an accident.

I do agree with you, however, on much of the rest.

[Warren DeMontague]

67. That's right. It's not an accident.

If the surrounding Arab nations hadn't ganged up to try to destroy Israel in 1967, the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza never would have happened- and many Palestinians could conceivably have Jordanian citizenship, although Jordan certainly didn't want them.

[cool user name]

105. That's bullshit ...

Israel attacked first because she coveted the land.

The Arab states didn't "gang" up on Israel. Hell, Egypt was having a hard time with Jordan.

[Warren DeMontague]

109. Oh, really?

Israel just attacked -for no reason, out of the blue- in '67?

What a flaming crock. Where do you get this crap? It's astounding. I'd really like to know where this baloney is coming from.

Um, the surrouding Arab nations were already celebrating the imminent "demise" of Israel and Nasser's brilliant victory BEFORE the war. That's a HISTORICAL FACT, Jack- and it's backed up by evidence in, among other places, Egyptian Newspapers from the time.

Again, printed right BEFORE THE WAR. They were all set to march into Tel Aviv. Their editorial cartoonists were having a field day, printing cartoons showing Nasser kicking the Jews into the ocean.

What did I say? They were printed BEFORE THE WAR.

So.... How would that work, exactly, if Israel just up and decided to attack out of nowhere?

[cool user name]

113. Bullshit ...

In fact, Nasser was sending his Vice President to the US to seek a diplomatic solution.

Israel has been sending raiding parties into Syria and Jordan for months prior to the war. Nasser was reluctant to go to war and he was scared shitless of Israel.

I actually read the history about the conflict. I suggest reading Benny Morris, Avi Shlaim, Norman Finkelstein, Tom Segev and such instead of getting your information from biased sources that say "Israel was attacked by a gang of Arab nations."

Simply isn't true.

[Warren DeMontague]

114. Revisionist Claptrap.

Nice try.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[question everything]

44. Like too many Evangelicals, he sees the world through his own eyes

Remember, he was booted out because he could not differentiate the White House from a church retreat.

[k_jerome]

95. no, just irrelevant. nt.

[BushOut06]

9. Why is being anti-Israel automatically equated with anti-Semitism?

There are plenty of Jews living openly in Iran, even serving in Iran's government. I don't see Ahmadinejad calling for their roundup or expulsion, nor do I see systematic persecution of them. It seems to me that most of his statements have been directed against the nation of Israel itself. Seems he has a problem with their sudden imposition into the Middle East, as well as their treatment of Palestinians.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Where's The Nexus To Israel

"What have the Zionists done for the American people that the US administration considers itself obliged to blindly support these infamous aggressors? Is it not because they have imposed themselves on a substantial portion of the (B)anking, (F)inancial, (C)ultural and (M)edia sectors?"



-Mahmoud Ahmadinejad


I have been waiting since last night for someone to name one " Zionist (who) has imposed himself on a on a substantial portion of the (B)anking, (F)inancial, (C)ultural and (M)edia sectors."

[in_cog_ni_to]

15. I wish you much luck in getting an answer to your question.

It seems all those who know the answer are still asleep or at work. I'm sure the list of Zionists controlling our country is very long. I'm anxious to see the list.:popcorn:

[KoKo]

51. How can we know the answer to this since he spouts rhetoric?

How can we know what he really thinks? MSM sure is giving him lots of velvet glove treatment the past few days. Maybe Baker/Bushies think he's an Anti-Semite they need to have on board to save Bush/Cheney/ butt's in Iraq.

:shrug:

[in_cog_ni_to]

57. Well, if anyone would know an anti-Semite, it would be James Baker.

Baker replied to concerns that the Republicans would lose the Jewish vote by saying, ‘F— the Jews, they don’t vote for us anyway.’

Read post #23.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

91. Still Waiting

eom

[cali]

16. First off, there are not plenty of Jews

in Iran, and there is one token Jew in Iran's Parliament. The Jews in Iran live a tenuous existense, and there's only about 25,000 to 30,000 left. Second of all, let's be quite clear on this, Ahmadinejad uses classic anti-semitic arguments about how Jews control American finance and cultural institutions. That is not being anti-Israel, it's being anti-semitic. Try and learn the difference.

[The Stranger]

29. Holy shit -- there's a Jewish member of Iran's Parliament?

I never knew that.

[rockymountaindem]

39. There's one seat in Iranian parliament reserved for religious minorities

I know the Zoroastrians have one too. It's not like they have any independent voice though.

[Hippo_Tron]

43. It's not, but holocaust denial generally is

[Marie26]

52. Right about the time

someone denies that the Holocaust happened and talks about how the Jews secretly run the world. But hey, you're right that he hasn't rounded anyone up yet. Kudos!

[Dorian Gray]

86. There are?

Really? I'm honestly curious about this, as the USA had an influx of Persian Jewish when the Ayatollah took power. I'm curious as to which government officials are of Jewish descent.

[Megahurtz]

99. Believe me, I know what you mean.

Sometimes people have to realize that some things have nothing to do with racism.

[Jacobin]

13. "Anti-Semitic". Is that like the term "Anti-American?"

Waving that sword around in a broad fashion relegates debate on the merits of Israeli/US foreign policy to name calling and is utterly useless and unproductive.

[cali]

18. Wrong.

No anti-semitism is not like anti-americanism, in this context. It's not name calling and considering Ahmadinejad's use of classic anti-semitic canard's in his letter, it's legitimate to ask the question posited by the OP.

[Jacobin]

30. Then explain to me what the term means, other than

a castigation for those with whom you disagree. I'll concede that the Iranian you name is a poster boy for that term, but my criticism is that the epithet is thrown around loosely at those who disagree with Likud's foreign policy decisions. THAT is what I think is not helpful to a discussion of these issues.

[cali]

36. Yes, people throw the accusation

of anti-semitism at people who are anti-Israeli policies or even plain old anti-Israel. Correspondingly, there are those who accuse people of throwing the word anti-semititism around when it is appropriate to use the term- objections to Ahmadinejad being described as an anti-semite is a case in point. I believe that both practices are counter-productive and aimed at discrediting the argument of the other.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

80. I May Not Be Hannah Arendt

I may not be Hannah Arendt but I would think if a person doesn't want to be thought of as an anti-semite he wouldn't say Jews control the media, banking, finance, and culture...

[bryant69]

14. It takes a certain amount of generosity to answer "no"

generosity almost to the point of insanity. Or possibly anybody who stands up to Bush can't possibly be as bad as he's made out to be.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Freddie Stubbs]

20. Some folks are willing to overlook Ahmadawhatever's faults because he

criticizes Bush.

[in_cog_ni_to]

21. That's IT in a nut shell.

And HE knows that. He may be an anti-Semite, but he's not stooopid.

[Kelly Rupert]

53. Pretty much.

Same with Hugo Chavez. If he were a righty, we'd be pissed off that Bush was friends with the most corrupt government in the Americas.

[Marie26]

54. Yep.

Also, I suspect some people are just anti-Semitic themselves.

[wiley]

123. Yep II

[Hosnon]

19. He comes across that way, yes. It may be for political reasons but I believe

it is also personal.

[Jcrowley]

22. Commonly held definitions are often wrong

As is the case here. If one uses that false definition then one promotes and perpetuates that falsehood. Orwell wrote at length about this.



Introducing Semitic Speakers:

Semitic languages are presently accepted as one of the branches of Afro-Asiatic languages. Together with other language sub-groupings such as Chadic, Berber, Nilotic, Omotic etc, the Semitic groups of languages are definitely African in origin. It used to be accepted that all the branches of the Afro-Asiatic language were clearly developed in Africa with the exception of Semitic over which there had been some dubious contention. But not any more as scholarly studies have dovetailed with common sense and logic in placing the original homeland of the Semitic speakers in Africa.

These Semitic speakers definitely were not white Africans.

The term Semites as an expression is applied to a group of peoples closely related in language, whose habitat is Africa extending into Asia. The expression is derived from the Biblical table of nations (Genesis 10), in which most of these peoples are recorded as descendants of Noah’s son Shem; although some who are designated as Semites in the modern times belong to peoples originally recorded as the children of Ham, the brother of Shem (i.e. the Phoenicians).

The term Semite was first proposed for the languages related to the Hebrew by Ludwig Schlözer, in Eichhorn’s Repertorium, vol. VIII (Leipzig, 1781), p. 161. Through Eichhorn the name then came into general usage (cf. his Einleitung in das Alte Testament (Leipzig, 1787), I, p. 45. He also used it in his Gesch. der neuen Sprachenkunde, pt. I (Göttingen, 1807).

Schlozer assumed that Abraham the eponymous Hebrew ancestor was of Semitic origin based upon the information in the Bible. He wrongly reasoned that since Abraham spoke Hebrew (a language which unknown to Schlozer was indigenous to Canaan) Hebrew should be a Semitic language. His work laid the grounds for the automatic but uncorroborated association of ancient Hebrews with the Caucasian family of nation. The flimsy foundation of this entire argument has run into problems with wider distributed access to source works that underlie scholarly research.

More:
http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/2006/03/13/the-semitic-speakers-of-africa/

[cali]

24. LOL

For ove 140 years anti-semitism has been defined as antipathy or hatred toward Jews. That's how every dictionary in the english language (not to mention other languages) defines it. It was coined to reflect that antipathy. Lots of words- and I do mean lots are not "true" to the roots of said word. Trying to redefine anti-semitism in no way answers the question in the OP, but since you refuse to live in reality, here's the question rephrased? Does Ahmadinejad demonstrate an antipathy toward Jews?

[in_cog_ni_to]

25. Can I help? Definitions of anti-Semitism on the Web:

Definitions of anti-Semitism on the Web:

is hatred or antipathy directed against Jews. It typically takes the form of
www.artpolitic.org/infopedia/an/Anti-semitism.html

Hatred, prejudice, oppression, or discrimination against Jews or Judaism. Actually, the term is usually spelled with a capital "S" in "Semitic." Semites originally meant the descendents of Shem, which include both Jews and Muslims in the Middle East. Now, the term is used mainly to refer to Jews. Alan Dershowitz, in his book "The Case for Israel" defines anti-semitism as "taking a trait or an action that is widespread if not universal, and blaming only the Jews for it."
www.religioustolerance.org/gl_a.htm

Persecution and hostility against Jews.
www.bl.uk/services/learning/curriculum/voices/refglos.html

Prejudice or discrimination against Jews. Auschwitz-Birkenau The largest Nazi death camp, where 1.4 million people were killed between 1942 and 1945. The vast majority were Jews; others murdered in large numbers included Catholics, Gypsies and Soviet prisoners of war. Four hundred thirty thousand Hungarian Jews were killed there in 1944, the year Shula was imprisoned there.
www.pbs.org/daringtoresist/tgglossary.html

Hostility toward Semites. Though Israelis and Palestinians are both semitic, the term almost always describes discrimination against Jews.
www.afsc.org/israel-palestine/learn/glossary.htm

A term for anti-Jewish discrimination.
collections.ic.gc.ca/art_context/glossa_b.htm

Opposition to and hatred of Jews.
www.chgs.umn.edu/Educational_Resources/Curriculum/Witness_And_Legacy_-_Teacher_R/Glossary__Teacher_Resource_Boo/glossary__teacher_resource_boo.html

Discrimination against or persecution of the Jews because of their religious beliefs or race.
library.thinkquest.org/C004351F/Glossary.htm

(antisemitism) - Literally means opposed to Semites (which would include Arabic and other semitic peoples as well), but usually applied specifically to opposition to Jews (anti-Judaism).
www.theisraelproject.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp

(London: Institute of Jewish Affairs, 1994)
hirr.hartsem.edu/ency/Jewish-Christian.htm

Prejudice against Jews. Christians have long since despised the Jew as the killer of Christ. They were despised in the middle ages as the lenders of money for gain (such usury was forbidden to Christians). Modern antisemitism rose up in the pogroms in Russia and Hungary (1882) and spread across Europe compelling thousands of Jew to flee to the more tolerant Britain and USA. ...
www.embassy.org.nz/encycl/a3aencyc.htm

prejudice or hostility toward Jewish people.
www.njsbf.com/njsbf/student/respect/fall03-glossary.cfm

Christian is better. Jewish oppression or hatred of Semitic people. A separate issue which is related to racial and religious oppression.
www.letswrap.com/LetsWRAP/Spring97/isms.htm

discrimination or persecution of Jews.
www.promotega.org/fld00005/wordstoknow.html

hostility towards the Jews
schools.cbe.ab.ca/b628/social/russia/glossary.html

the intense dislike for and prejudice against Jewish people
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Anti-Semitism (alternatively spelled antisemitism) is hostility towards or prejudice against Jews (not, in common usage, Semites in general — see the Scope section below). This happens on an individual level and goes on to the institutionalized prejudice and persecution once prevalent in European societies, of which the highly explicit ideology of Adolf Hitler's National Socialism was the most extreme form.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism

[Jcrowley]

28. Not trying to redefine

rather merely restoring to what it really means. The OP and your unreality do not change the truth one bit.

If you are trying "to redefine" a term that has been misused for years that is the proper course. Unless we are to believe if we abuse a term long enough that that false definition now becomes true.

It seems to me that Ahmadinejad definitely has antipathy towards the State of Israel and a high likelihood, but no certainty, that he also possesses antipathy towards Jews.

Could we ask that same question about Olmert regarding Arabs? Or maybe Peres? Or Sharon? Or Ben-Gurion?

I have no allegiance towards any of these people or their causes. It still does not change the fact that the term anti-semitic is used wrongly and as an incendiary device.

Did you hear Jimmy Carter on Dem Now! this morning?

Meanwhile:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23376247-details/Controversial+scientist+predicts+planetary+wipeout/article.do

Gotta go.

[cali]

33. Anti-semitism

has always and only meant one thing, so how can you be trying to restore it's "true" meaning. Sorry, you simply sound like an apologist when you suggest that the term anti-semite is always used wrongly. It's certainly true that it's sometimes used as a tool to shut down debate, but you're rewriting history when you make statements such as those in both your posts in this thread.

[Spider Jerusalem]

98. That's complete and total absurdity.

The ORIGINAL MEANING of "anti-Semitism" is "anti-Judaism". It has NEVER meant ANYTHING ELSE. SO your talk of "restoring it to what it really means" is complete and utter bullshit.

[Balbus]

23. How could he possibly be interpreted as anti-semitic? He's a friend of the Jews.

August 6, 2006

"They (Jews) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals."

(as quoted by Khorasan Provincial TV)

August 2, 2006

"Are they human beings?... They (Jews) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame."

(as quoted by Iranian TV)

July 16, 2006

"The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan."
(as quoted by the Iranian News Agency)

June 16, 2006

"I think we have sufficiently talked about this matter and these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties."

"An event that has influenced so many diplomatic and political equations of the world needs to investigated and researched by impartial and independent groups."
(a news conference following a meeting with China's president)

May 28, 2006

"I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War II . . . The question is: Why is it that only the Jews are at the center of attention?"
(in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine)

May 11, 2006

Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish."
(to a student rally in Jakarta, Indonesia)

April 24, 2006

''We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live. Open the doors (of Europe) and let the Jews go back to their own countries."

(In a news conference held on April 24, 2006)

April 14, 2006

"If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and holocaust being faced by the Palestinians. Holocaust has been continuing in Palestine over the past 60 years."
(In a speech at the opening of the "Support for the Palestinian Intifada" conference on April 14-16 hosted in Tehran)

December 14, 2005

"Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them so that the Jews can establish their country."
(Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)


December 8, 2005



"Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem? If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe."

(While speaking to reporters at an Islamic summit in Mecca)

[in_cog_ni_to]

26. All of his interpretors misinterpreted his words.

Haven't you heard?

[Anarcho-Socialist]

35. LOL

I was surprised that one of his defenders here hadn't come up with that already.

[in_cog_ni_to]

37. They have.

In previous threads that supported Ahmedinejad. I kid you not.:(

[H2O Man]

32. Well done.

Thank you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

83. His Dismissal Of The Holocaust Is Pure David Duke

Duke dismisses the Holocaust as "so much Hollywood."...

[StraightDope]

40. No.

Opposition to the State of Israel is NOT the same thing as opposition to the Jewish people. Never has been, never will be, no matter how much certain interests would like one to believe otherwise.

[cali]

46. Absolutely right,

but Ahmadinejad makes lots of plain old anti-semitic remarks- from holocaust denial to the accusation that "zionists" control american media and finance. There's a list of Ahmadinejad's bigoted statements in this thread, and has been noted, even Juan Cole, who's hardly an apologist for Israel, has acknowledged that Ahmadinejad is hostile to Jews. Frankly, I think it's nothing short of a disgrace that so many DUers refuse to see something that's as clear as the light of day- and insist erroneously that Ahmadinejad's antipathy is toward the state of Israel and not towards Jews.

It is just pathetic.

[QuestionAll...]

100. do you think AIPAC has influence on american foreign policy?

and of all the lobbyist groups there are, which one(s) are the most powerful?

[Hippo_Tron]

48. Denying the holocaust is not anti-semitic?

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[StraightDope]

61. And befoe someone points out the omission...

Yes, I'm aware that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is Farsi.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

64. Your usage of the term is incorrect

Firstly yes, Arabs are Semites as Jews are. However the term anti-Semitism was coined as a term to describe hatred of Jews specifically (look the term up in any dictionary). Questioning the facts about the Holocaust as well as total disbelief are indeed highly anti-Semitic actions.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

70. OK, you've provided an excellent snippet of what Semitic is

but it doesn't change that the term anti-Semitic was coined to term the expressed hatred of Jews, rather than all Semitic peoples in general.

[StraightDope]

71. And upon further examination...

I would say that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad does harbor some anti-Jewish sentiment that is derived from misconceptions about the Holocaust. His main problem seems to be that Israel was plopped down in the middle of Palestine with no consideration from the West about the Arabs who were already living there.

See also: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14733.htm

Quotes from Ahmadinejad, courtesy of the Jerusalem Post:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1145961353170&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull



"Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury."

"Remove Israel before it is too late and save yourself from the fury of regional nations."

"The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land. As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map."

"If the West does not support Israel, this regime will be toppled. As it has lost its raison d' tre, Israel will be annihilated."

"Israel is a tyrannical regime that will one day will be destroyed."

"Israel is a rotten, dried tree that will be annihilated in one storm."


He has plenty to say about Israel, which I again must emphasize, is NOT synonymous with the Jewish People as a whole. Under the heading, "Holocaust Denial", the JPost has the following:

"They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets."

"We ask the West to remove what they created sixty years ago and if they do not listen to our recommendations, then the Palestinian nation and other nations will eventually do this for them."

"The real Holocaust is what is happening in Palestine where the Zionists avail themselves of the fairy tale of Holocaust as blackmail and justification for killing children and women and making innocent people homeless."

"The West claims that more than six million Jews were killed in World War II and to compensate for that they established and support Israel. If it is true that the Jews were killed in Europe, why should Israel be established in the East, in Palestine?"

"If you have burned the Jews, why don't you give a piece of Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to Israel. Our question is, if you have committed this huge crime, why should the innocent nation of Palestine pay for this crime?"

Again, lots of stuff griping about the creation of Israel from Arab Palestine, rather than a portion of Western land, But the only one of these remarks that I would consider "anti-Semitic" is the first one, and even then, it's marginal. He seems to believe that the Holocaust is a fiction promulgated to justify the creation of the State of Israel. He's a fucking retard if he honestly thinks that the Holocaust didn't occur, but that doesn't make him anti-Semitic.

Let me ask an open question: Is questioning the official figure of 6 million Jewish deaths, and instead believing that the actual death toll was only 3 million an anti-Semitic belief? Is it Holocaust denial? I'm curious to see what some of you think.

[Alexander]

81. "Is it Holocaust denial?"

"Let me ask an open question: Is questioning the official figure of 6 million Jewish deaths, and instead believing that the actual death toll was only 3 million an anti-Semitic belief? Is it Holocaust denial? I'm curious to see what some of you think."

Yes, and it is blatantly anti-Semitic. Show me a shred of evidence that the figure is really 3 million instead of 6.

But here's a nice lovely gentleman who shares that view.

"The thing with him was that he was talking about numbers. I mean when the war was over they said it was 12 million . Then it was six. Now it's four. I mean it's that kind of numbers game."

It's just a numbers game? Riiiight. Here's a recent quote from the same individual...

"Fucking Jews, Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world."

Oh sure, Mel Gibson thinks it's a "numbers game" and doesn't really hate Jews. :eyes:

[StraightDope]

72. Dupe

[DemocratSinceBirth]

85. Are You Serious That There Isn't A Nexus Between Holocaust Denial And Anti-Semitism?

If there isn't a nexus between Holocaust Denial and Anti-Semitism why is there a thread on the authenticity of the Holocaust at Stormfront with 15,000 replies...


I'd link it but I think it's a violation of DU rules...

[sabbat hunter]

84. since you like wikipedia

here is what wikipedia says about antisemetism
Antisemitism (alternatively spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is hostility toward or prejudice against Jews

"Semite refers broadly to speakers of a language group which includes both Arabs and Jews. However, the term antisemitism is specifically used in reference to attitudes held towards Jews."




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

is that clearer for you?

[Marie26]

69. .

:eyes:

[Alexander]

78. Why not?

Disputing the facts known about the Holocaust is somehow not anti-Semitic?

"No, really. 6 million Jews weren't horribly butchered. Honest"

That would be like an American saying "There was no slavery of blacks, ever" and you defending him against charges of racism.

:crazy:

[sabbat hunter]

82. anti semitic

means anti jew. that is the accepted definition. I am growing weary of those trying to redefine the term.

[Phx_Dem]

87. holocaust denial is anti-semitic

and in some countries, a crime.

[Marie26]

42. Is the Pope Catholic? nt

[treestar]

45. Arabs hate the existence of Israel, not Jews

Traditionally they were tolerant of both Jews and Christians in their midst, also. It is UK/US interference in the area that has stirred up all the hatred.

Iranians are with the Arabs in this respect.

There is no special word for hatred of Muslims, but I have seen it, coming from both Christians and Jews.

[Kelly Rupert]

47. What do Arabs have to do with anything?

[treestar]

50. I already caught that - updated

Muslims, could be more the word.

[cali]

55. Are you categorically denying that

there's any anti-semitism in the Muslim world? Interesting.

And yes, there's a disturbing amount of hatred towards Muslims out there as well.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

60. "There is no special word for hatred of Muslims"

Islamophobia. That term is used a lot in the British press to describe hatred of Muslims. In regards to your other points there is indeed entrenched hatred towards Jews in Arab countries. Many newspapers there still consider the "Protocols" as true, and consider the Holocaust to be a myth. Stories that the Jews are descended from pigs are given consideration.

[StraightDope]

62. "There is no special word for hatred of Muslims"

Sure there is. Anti-Semitism. Arabs are a Semitic people as well.

[piedmont]

confusing religion with ethnicity

Not all muslims are arab, and not all arabs are muslim. Hatred of muslims might be "Islamophobia" I guess, but it still doesn't quite hit the mark.

[piedmont]

65. damn double post

edited to erase double post

[Anarcho-Socialist]

66. You're incorrect

See post #64 http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2832215&mesg_id=2833932

[cali]

88. This is ridiculous.

Anti-Semitism was coined to describe hatred of Jews. There's something really bizarre and more than a little disturbing about people who refuse to acknowledge this. You can insist that anti-semitism includes Arabs, but you're wrong. Look up the word in any fucking dictionary. Now, maybe over time, the word's meaning will change, but presently and historically it has meant only one thing. My question is: Why do you have a hard time accepting that the word has meant only one thing for 140 years?

[rinsd]

90. Its like someone saying they aren't racist because they don't believe in superiority

We are parsing bigotry based on literal definitions.

[Jcrowley]

110. Semite is a linguistic rather than ethnic designation

Anyone who speaks a Semitic language could be called a Semite, and language families (especially large ones like Afro-Asiatic or Indo-European) often cross racial lines. Both an Amharic speaker in Ethiopia and an Ashkenazi Jew in Israel could be considered Semites.

I think that they chose Anti-Semite because it was a nice sterile word for the times. People could feel bad about what happened to Jews without actually having to mention the Jews. I think Anti-Jewish, anti-Judaic or even Judeophobia would be better.

As for the details of Afro-Asiatic, Cushitic and Omotic were probably the first to branch off of Afro-Asiatic (but were not the proto-language itself), followed by Chadic. Semitic, Berber and Egyptian (Boreafrasian, as Ehret refers to them) were the last to split off.

[cali]

118. How can you pontificate when you know so little about this?

It's either that or you're denying the facts because they don't fit in with your ideology. You write "I think that they chose Anti-Semite because it was a nice sterile word for the times. People could feel bad about what happened to Jews without actually having to mention the Jews." That makes no sense whatsoever. As for your suggestion that other words are more accurate, perhaps, but that's not what happened.

Spouting off about what the word semitic means, has nothing to do with what the word anti-semitic means.

Here:

The word antisemitic (antisemitisch in German) was probably first used in 1860 by the Austrian Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "antisemitic prejudices" (German: "antisemitische Vorurteile"). Steinschneider used this phrase to characterize Ernest Renan's ideas about how "Semitic races" were inferior to "Aryan races." These pseudo-scientific theories concerning race, civilization, and "progress" had become quite widespread in Europe in the second half of the 19th century, especially as Prussian nationalistic historian Heinrich von Treitschke did much to promote this form of racism. In Treitschke's writings Semitic was practically synonymous with Jewish, in contrast to its usage by Renan and others.

German political agitator Wilhelm Marr coined the related German word Antisemitismus in his book "The Way to Victory of Germanicism over Judaism" in 1879. Marr used the phrase to mean hatred of jews or Judenhass, and he used the new word antisemitism to make hatred of the Jews seem rational and sanctioned by scientific knowledge. Marr's book became very popular, and in the same year he founded the "League of Antisemites" ("Antisemiten-Liga"), the first German organization committed specifically to combatting the alleged threat to Germany posed by the Jews, and advocating their forced removal from the country.

Is that specific enough for you? Still want to keep up your assertions? Why?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism

[Lurking Dem]

107. There seems to be a commonality

with posters who link to WhatReallyHappened.com that I'm starting to find.....amusing.

[Kelly Rupert]

49. Undoubtedly.

He is opposed to the state of Israel, yes. However, by the time you venture into Holocaust denial, then I think we can assume that he is either anti-Semitic, or consciously manipulating anti-Semitism to consolidate power (which in practical terms is even worse).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. Personally? I don't know.

Never met the guy.

Politically? Sure, he seems to enjoy the race-baiting.

[Beelzebud]

73. Does the pope wear a funny hat?

[Dorian Gray]

74. Absolutely

and without a doubt. YES!

[Dorian Gray]

75. Absolutely

and without a doubt. YES!

[Alexander]

76. Anyone who doesn't think so is probably an anti-Semite themselves.

[Gwerlain]

79. I'm, like,

Nawwwww, ya THINK? ;)

[Ravenseye]

89. I don't know

Nor does anyone. It's like asking for the opinion of a muppet. The guy is just a mouth flapping ventriloquist dummy there to keep the focus on him instead of the clerics and ultra conservatives on the Guardian council who are actually in charge. He's like a magician's distraction.

[originalpckelly]

92. Personally, I think all these "no" votes are a Zionist plot.

:eyes:

[Mugu]

97. At 31% that's about the only explanation that makes any sense.

Make that evil Zionist plot.

[Blue_In_AK]

93. Never mind.

[KoKo]

96. So far 69% of DU'ers think he's an Anti-Semite....why are the Whore Media

and Bushies now sucking up to they guy? It's like the MSM pulled a plug and he's now our FRIEND!

Poppy and Baker feel "better to work with the ENEMY YOU KNOW ...and Can Sell Arms To? ....Or the "known unknowns and the unknowns who do them."

:shrug:

What has Bush II done to support Israel? That's my question. I don't see much. :shrug: maybe I'm just clueless...

[Kelly Rupert]

102. Because he pretty much owns Iraq now.

[Karenina]

101. He is anti-semitic in the SAME WAY

that dominant culture Americans are racist.

[Kelly Rupert]

103. Unless white people are denying slavery ever happened,

it's not the same.

[Karenina]

104. S-W-H-O-O-S-H

Right over your head!!! Nike much?

[Kelly Rupert]

106. Then explain.

Being obtuse is usually not something to be proud of.

[EdwardM]

108. If he isn't then he is a damn good actor.

[Jcrowley]

111. Freedom from the known

When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.
-J. Krishnamurti, Freedom from the Known

[cali]

117. I've enjoyed reading Krishnamurti

but I have no problem stating that I think that's an absurd statement. And completely out of touch with human nature. Also if you agree with said statement, I take it you do not identify as a democrat, or well, anything else.

[Azathoth]

115. Bashing Jews in the Middle East is like bashing gays in the American South

It's an easy way to stir up your "conservative base".

That said, he's definitely anti-Semitic.

[SoCalDem]

116. and we care, because??

What he is, is pretty evident by now.

[Swamp Rat]

119. As a student of linguistics and ethnology

1) I disagree with the misuse of the word "semite."

2) In this case, I disagree with use of the pejorative "anti-semite." The so-called "commonly accepted definition" of the word antisemite was coined by racists, thus corrupting the meaning of the root word - see: Heinrich von Treitschke, Wilhelm Marr, et al.

3) Ahmadinejad likely "hates" Israelis, and perhaps Jewish people in general. Did he not say so himself? So, fuck him and all his hateful friends. I'll take my dreidel and my chocolate gold coins and go home.

I am not slamming you DemocratSinceBirth, but it irks me to even see the word "anti-semite."

[cali]

120. Then as a student of linguistics you should know

that there are many, many words that corrupt the root word. That's the way language often works and quirks. I find it amusing that so many people are irked by the word and try to deny it.

[Swamp Rat]

122. I do not find holocaust denial amusing at all

and the people who corrupted the word 'Semitic' were proto-Nazis. So, therefore, I now refuse to use 'their word' to describe anti-Jewish/anti-Israeli sentiment. I see no reason to propagate their misnomer, even if "many, many" people do it.

When I see the word 'anti-Semite,' I associate it with hatred toward all the decedents of Shem.

Perhaps the word should be used in its unhyphenated form, 'antisemitism,' to denote the particular hatred toward Jewish people.

Caveat emptor: The separation of the hyphenated and unhyphenated forms only works in written form.

edit: I agree people will likely continue to use 'anti-Semite'

[ButterflyBlood]

121. No, he only denies the Holocaust to pamper to his political base

:eyes:

(I actually once did hear someone claim that here to defend that bigoted piece of filth. Some of the stuff on here can make you sick)

[JacksonWest]

124. How can anyone say no-let alone nearly a third?

The guy calls for the destruction of Israel at least once a week.

[Jack Rabbit]

125. He's either anti-semitic or dumber than Bush

Considering the odds of being dumber than Bush, I voted yes.

[Strawman]

126. Sure he is. That's an easy question

The hard part is figuring out what ought to be done about it and how to deal with the complicated issues in that part of the world. What's our best move? I have no idea. I don't think anyone does. In that case the best move is to delay making one and to gather intelligence. Luckily, I don't think we're at a point where we have to make a move yet either.

I'm not one of the people that thinks the bombastic rhetoric of the Iranian president is iron-clad evidence of a specific strategy on the part of Iran or that bombing Iran into the Stone Age is the best way or the only way to get that country to play nice.