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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:25 AM
Original message
"The Rise of American Democracy" ....
"This book’s simple title describes the historical arc of its subject. Important elements of democracy existed in the infant American republic of the 1780s, but the republic was not democratic. Nor, in the minds of those who governed it, was it supposed to be. A republic – the res publica, or ‘public thing’ – was meant to secure the common good through the ministrations of the most worthy, enlightened men. A democracy – derived from demos krateo, ‘rule of the people’ – dangerously handed power to the impassioned, unenlightened masses. Democracy, the eminent Federalist political leader George Cabot wrote as late as 1804, was ‘the government of the worst.’ Yet by the 1830s, as Alexis de Tocquesville learned, most Americans proclaimed that their country was a democracy as well as a republic. Enduring arguments had begun over the boundaries of democratic politics. In the 1840s and 1850s, these arguments centered increasingly on slavery and slavery’s expansion and led to the Civil War.

"The changes were astonishing, but neither inevitable nor providential. American democracy did not rise like the sun at its natural hour in history. Its often troubled ascent was the outcome of human conflicts, accommodations, and unforeseen events, and the results could well have been very different than they were. The difficulties and the contingencies made the events all the more remarkable. A momentous rupture occurred between Thomas Jefferson’s time and Abraham Lincoln’s that created the lineaments of modern politics. The rise of American democracy is the story of that rupture and its immediate consequences.

"Democracy is a troublesome word, and explaining why is one of my book’s goals. A decade before the American Revolution, the early patriot James Otis defined democracy in its purest and simplest form as ‘a government of all over all,’ in which ‘the votes of the majority shall be taken as the voice of the whole,’ and where the rulers were the ruled. As fixed descriptions go, this is as good as any, but its abstractness, of course, begs explication. Since the Revolution, citizens, scholars, and political leaders have latched onto one or another aspect of government or politics as democracy’s essence. For some, it is a matter of widening political rights; for others, democracy means greater opportunity for the individual pursuit of happiness; for still others, it is more of a cultural phenomenon than a political one, ‘a habit of the heart,’ as de Tocqueville put it, in which deference to rulers and condescension for the ruled give way to the ruder conventions of equality. …..

"Democracy appears when some large number of previously excluded, ordinary persons – what the eighteenth century called ‘the many’ -- secure the power not simply to select their governors but to oversee the institutions the institutions of government, as officeholders and as citizens free to assemble and criticize those in office. Democracy is never a gift bestowed by benevolent, farseeing rulers who seek to reinforce their own legitimacy. It must always be fought for, by political coalitions that cut across distinctions of wealth, power, and interest. It suceeds and survives only when it is rooted in the lives and expectations of its citizens, and continually reinvigorated in each generation. Democratic successes are never irreversible."

--The Rise of American Democracy: Jefferson to Lincoln; Sean Wilentz; WW Norton & Co.; 2005

There was a discussion on the Democratic Underground earlier this week that questioned if that political discussion forum would have been created if Al Gore had won the presidential election in 2000. I found that both amusing and amazing, because the simple truth is that Al Gore did win. My favorite book on the topic is Vince Bugliosi’s "The Betrayal of America: How the Supreme Court Undermined the Constitution and Chose Our President." That title alone hints that the powers that denied President Gore his rightful office, and instead placed Bush and Cheney in power, posed a serious threat to our democracy.

The reasons why a small group of politically powerful people subverted the democratic process have become evident as this administration has continued to corrupt the Constitution of the United States in a manner that threatens the very foundation of the country. Perhaps no single issue is more important to this discussion than the administration’s invasion of Iraq. In a number of discussion on DU about that war, I have quoted from Arthur Schlesinger, Jr.’s "The Imperial Presidency," the 1973 classic that detailed how presidents throughout history have attempted to gain an unconstitutional level of power by abusing the office’s war powers.

Schlesinger notes that the Constitution provides for abuses of power by allowing the Congress to impeach those who break the law. In two recent essays that I have posted on DU, and quoted from both Schlesinger and John Dean’s "Worse Than Watergate" – which details several areas that Bush and Cheney are at risk of being impeached, should Congress respect the Constitution – a couple DUers have reacted by saying that what I am advocating in "dangerous." Thus, I think it is important to warn the weak-kneed hand-wringers that Sean Wilentz states openly that he believes Arthur Schlesinger Jr. changed the way in which historians approached the topic of democracy in America, and quotes him on how "future challenges ‘will best be met by a society in which no single group is able to sacrifice democracy and liberty to its interests’."

Few people would debate that the administration lied to the American public about the actual reasons they were going to invade Iraq. There were no WMDs, and the intelligence community had provided quality information to the administration. The Vice President and his ilk have politely been accused of "cherry-picking" the intelligence. The truth is they distorted it purposely, and lied to us. The proof of their criminal intent is found in their criminal attack on Joseph Wilson when he told us the truth.

The horrors of their invasion of Iraq are obviously found in that land. It’s the dead and wounded American soldiers, who were betrayed by this administration. It’s the unbelievable amount of damage done to the Iraqi people. It’s obscene, it’s evil, and it is as sinful as anything that is found in that Good Book that Bush so self-righteously thinks justifies his behavior.

A country cannot do what we have done in Iraq, and not have a reaction in its own land. We see that reaction in an organized attempt by that same small group that corrupted the 2000 election, to trample the US Constitution. As I have noted before, what the administration is doing today is no different than what was known as the Huston Plan in the Nixon era. It includes the domestic spying, and the attempts to deny Constitutional rights to segments of the population. The historic Ervin Committee Report details the criminal nature of this plan on pages 53-57. Read it, and see if it isn’t exactly what this group of misfits is doing.

The 2006 mid-term elections were a democratic response to the administration’s war in Iraq. Yes, there are other issues that were extremely significant in the elections, but the nation’s rejection of the Bush-Cheney war in Iraq was the single most important democratic statement. And what has been the republican response?

Rumsfeld is being replaced by Robert Gates, a criminal from the Iran-Contra scandals. The crimes of the Reagan-Bush1 administration were no less dangerous to our nation than was Watergate. In fact, these crimes were more dangerous, because while Watergate was a domestic series of crimes, Iran-Contra was international in scope.

There is also a James Baker III commission that was supposed to take an objective look at the US policy in Iraq, and to find potential solutions. Today we hear what most progressive democrats knew: the Baker commission is merely fronting for a long-term occupation of Iraq, in order to provide access to Iraqi oil reserves.

Gates is a criminal. It would be impossible for him to stop the Bush-Cheney crimes in Iraq. Baker fronted for the group that denied Gore his rightful office. He isn’t going to oppose the Bush-Cheney agenda now. And one need look no further than Gates’ and Baker’s friend Newt Gingrich, who has played an influential role as an advisor to VP Cheney – including on the operation to damage Joseph and Valerie Plame Wilson – who is running for the republican nomination for 2008. This week, Newt identified the 1st Amendment as a threat to our safety.

Wilentz and Schlesinger remind us that not only is democracy a process, but that anti-democratic actions are part of a process. In order for us to oppose the Bush-Cheney-Gates-Baker-Gingrich process, we must be active at the "rule of the people" level that some find so dangerous. I strongly urge progressives and democrats to write letters to Henry Waxman and John Conyers, and ask them to keep the process moving forward.

Our democracy depend upon our actions today. There is no greater outline of what those actions should include, than the 1st Amendment that Newt finds so threatening. We must use those powers provided by the Constitution to demand the Congress move towards impeachment proceedings. I’ve suggested we target VP Cheney, while others say we should target Bush, or both. I am comfortable with all of these positions.

We continue to have some say that we should not be talking about impeachment. It’s dangerous. Some continue to cling to the weak position that the impeachment advocates do not understand that we need investigations first. In fact, the pro-impeachment people understand the process better than the anti-impeachment friends. And more, we have a greater faith in that process. Prove it, you say? Easily: the anti-impeachment folk continue to hold tight to the "there aren’t enough votes" life jacket that barely holds their argument above the tide of pro-impeachment sentiment. There weren’t the votes when the process against Nixon began. But that didn’t stop those who trusted in the Constitution.

There weren’t the votes for civil rights when that process began. But those who trusted in the Constitution didn’t back down from doing what was right. There weren’t enough votes to stop the war in Vietnam, for that matter. But it didn’t stop those brave people who knew the war was wrong.

In his greatest speech, "A Time to Break Silence (aka Beyond Vietnam)", Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.told us that we "are now faced with the fact that tomorrow is today. We are confronted with the fierce urgency of now. In this unfolding conundrum of life and history there is such a thing as being too late. Procrastination is still the thief of time. Life often leaves us standing bare, naked and dejected with lost opportunity. The ‘tide in the affairs of men’ does not remain at the flood; it ebbs. …We must move past indecision to action."

Have faith in democracy. Act today.


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mogster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. Good post! K&R
"There was a discussion on the Democratic Underground earlier this week that questioned if that political discussion forum would have been created if Al Gore had won the presidential election in 2000. I found that both amusing and amazing, because the simple truth is that Al Gore did win."

He did. To 'win' and to really win an election are two different things, and only one involves democracy IMHO.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. Simply
One of your best. Thanks.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
3. Kick for Democracy. - n/t
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
4. Democracy depends on our participation
Thanks for the essay.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. It's sad to listen to Bush
this morning. He's saying that the US will stay in Iraq as long as they want us to. There is little dispute that at very least 70% of Iraqis want the US to leave their country today. So much for the president's respect for democracy.
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Bush is taking the brunt of the public relations fiasco
on this, and I think he is enjoying it less and less. The story seems to be opening up in the media more.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I was surprised
that he took this most recent trip. Travel tires out most people. At the end of his last trip, he was not not able to communicate at the normally low level that he usually does. But I recall that Nixon did some foreign tours when his ratings dropped.
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KAT119 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. Reports are out that every Iraqi family now mourns the loss of a loved one!!
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
8. very good
:thumbsup:

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Thank you.
I know that you have been one of the most outspoken, absolutely on target DUers on this topic. I appreciate that.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
67. Carpe Diem
:kick:



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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
10. I will never shut up about impeachment...
It is what the Constitution demands. Investigate and impeach for high crimes and misdemeanors. We investigate to get the facts on the record, and we impeach based on the facts discovered in the investigation. It's not retribution, or payback - it is Justice and The Rule of Law.

On a side note, I live very near Senator Ervin's hometown. The community college library is named for him. mr liberty's FedEx route is also there - Morganton, N.C. - it's a very blue spot in a state that has been pretty red these last years. We could use more Gentleman Sam's in Congress, and I'm hoping we might finally have them...
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. I think that Ervin
is a wonderful example of a man who had some character flaws, but who was able to rise far above them when confronted by the dangers that Watergate posed to this nation. And for that, he has to be recognized as one of the great characters of the Senate. When we look to his example, we see how the process changes people, and how people then move the process forward.

His introduction to the Ervin Committee Report is one of the best documents I've ever read.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
11. The politicians don't lead, they follow the people.
It is now acceptable to criticize the war, the occupation, and the whole ideology about it. Not because the politicians "led" the people to do so, but because the people demand that they do so.

As willfully ignorant and apathetic as the American people usually are towards the world, they are able to see the obvious. That, despite the efforts of the flag-wavers and sloganeers ("Support Our Troops"), the misbegotten "war" on a wrecked 3rd world country was unnecessary, mismanaged, and has now become a very dangerous situation for the people of Iraq and the whole Middle East.

Democracy is far from perfect as a form of government. The masses are too easily manipulated into barbaric acts by popular "leaders" who erect bogeymen and promise to "save" them. Our history is full of examples of just that, from the rewriting of the Declaration of Independence to accommodate the slaveholders who feared their slaves, to Jim Crow, to the Red Scare of the Labor Movement, to the "Falling Dominoes" in Asia, to the present day fears of the desperate people crossing the border into Arizona, to the menace of "IslamoFascism".

Impeachment is a political, not legal, act. Bill Clinton was impeached, not because of his philandering, but because the Republicans saw an opportunity to unseat, or at least, embarrass him. It was unsuccessful, not because of legality, but because he was a popular president and the people saw through the obvious charade. That Bush has egregiously broken numerous laws is undeniable and could be easily proven in the investigation and impeachment process. The problem is that there is little political will among the "leaders" who could institute the proceedings.

The timid say that it would be "dangerous". Dangerous to what? That after the investigations, the people would turn against those calling for impeachment? I believe that the investigations leading to impeachment would reveal such crimes that the American people would be more likely to turn against those who opposed impeachment. Even if Bush and, hopefully, Cheney were impeached and the Republicans prevailed in protecting them, the people would be inclined to unseat those who defended the criminals.

It is not "dangerous" to impeach the criminals, it is far more dangerous not to impeach them.

Abraham Lincoln called it a "government of the people, by the people, for the people". For the people. Not the politicians.





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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. I've said on some threads that "Impeachment" is too good for them.
I want the hearings started the minute Dems take over. It will take longer than they have left in office to get the Crime Family for everything they've done...but is there enough investigation already done by Waxman to remove them within a year for at least one or two crimes? Force them to resign and have them face individual law suits for their many crimes for as long as it takes (even if it's years). This whole administration is culpable in crimes against humanity.

How do we go about getting them to serve time? Impeachment is too good for them if its done the way we dealt with Nixon.

How do we go after Bush, Cheney, Condi, Rumsfeld and the "enablers" who worked with them? It would take a RICO investigation. How can they be removed sooner so they can't do more damage? Those are questions I have.

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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
69. I love your statement:
It is now acceptable to criticize the war, the occupation, and the whole ideology about it. Not because the politicians "led" the people to do so, but because the people demand that they do so.

Isn't it exactly the way it is supposed to be? NOW let's see what Congress DOES!
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #69
78. Actually, we elect these politicians because they're supposed to be smart,
they're supposed to have all the information upon which to base GOOD decisions, and they're supposed to have the best interests of the nation uppermost.

So, *THEY* "should" be leading *us* in good decisions, and helping us to understand why they are making those good decisions.

They have flunked.

Yes, we, as citizens, must always been vigilant about how our congresscritters are deciding, but they are leaders for a reason.. they're supposed to actually lead us the right way.

Wadda concept...
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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
88. YES!!!! This is exactly 'right on spot'
eom
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
12. Great piece H2O.
Needs to be read by every American.

Thanks for posting.
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
13. I just picked it up
and it is in the queue right after I finish this book on fighting the Spanish Flu.
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5X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
15. Times such as these make me feel privileged to be a member...
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 11:12 AM by 5X
of this community. H2O man's essay gives me hope that some of
our group 'get it'.

Very well done, sir.

K & R.

Bill

edit for spelling.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Thank you.
I appreciate that.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
16. One could call the Bush Admin. "anti-democratic". It's also un-American
as you so eloquently point out.

Cheers and thanks -
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
17. The Constitution is our lighthouse.
I find your post more than a little uplifting.

I am both hopeless and hopeful. As I read your post, I felt that in the last half century, Americans have felt as though they had finished the "project". They sat back and enjoyed themselves. But as I am discovering, there is another group. Those who are never satisfied with less than perfect. Never happy that there may be some suffering that is needless. And I never knew how much I owed the framers of the Constitution. Those brilliant and thoughtful men, and women, no doubt.


I remember working in my garage about three years ago, listening to that same speech by Martin King. How incredibly up to date it was, still. I am going to listen to it again, right now.

We've reached the top of this mountain. Thank god for that. It may be downhill, but you are correct that we have to keep working toward what is right and best for this democracy.


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Alamom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
19. Thank you. I "am" forever hopeful regarding our Democracy &
Freedom. Your words increase my faith & hope in my fellow Americans.

With #1000
I am proud and honored to kick this post for the afternoon readers.


I hope everyone reads it.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
22. removed
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 02:50 PM by H2O Man
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I Object
and as a memeber of this democracy I demand it be put back!
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Plus A
:kick: for the night crew
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
39. Seconded.
:+
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
25. Apple for the Teacher!
Great post, Teacher Man. Reading through this, I find it impossible to understand how anyone can think that focusing on our important, but less pressing, domestic housekeeping chores is even in the same arena with the larger housekeeping chores of removing from office the criminal cadre that has taken over our country.

My daughter and I heard Vincent Bugliosi speak right after Theft 2000. His words have been ringing in my head ever since: "History will show that we should have been in the streets."

We're ruminating from the same page right now; to wit: I've been thinking for a week of writing about the fact that Rosa Parks "didn't have the votes" when she sat herself down at the front of that bus in Montgomery!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. A year ago,
my friends at the Southern Poverty Law Center sent me a copy of a wonderful film about Rosa Parks. I loved it. And I was so pleased when it caught one of my young daughter's eyes. Rosa became a hero to her, and a role model for her, immediately.

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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. With criminals like these...
...who needs "law"-abiding citizens?

My daughter's grandmother (ex-husband's mother) was from Montgomery, lived to age 97, still wondering all the while what all the fuss was about over "that woman."

The physicist Max Born once claimed that theories are never abandoned until their proponents are all dead - that science advances 'funeral by funeral'. ...

As does human consciousness.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. "Human consciousness advances funeral by funeral"
wow...just wow...

That will take some chewing.

Thank you. :thumbsup:
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #42
65. Well, I'm chewing on that, myself, after writing it.
The older generation dies, a newer one is at the fore. Are they necessarily more advanced? No, not necessarily.

I think the impetus of that message was that change is slow, and that newer ideas take time to be accepted.

I've just come from a conference I'm attending this weekend in Santa Fe with Gregg Braden and Dr. Bruce Lipton. Lipton speaks of "cutting edge" ideas in science, specifically having to do with our ability to shape our own, and our planet's, futures through our thinking/feeling processes; i.e., we are not victims of our current circumstances.

It was good for me to change my focus a bit tonight, to be hopeful about our political and social future, while continuing to be involved in the very material process of creating it!



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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #65
85. Good point. As fundie thought takes over, the path also goes backwards.
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 06:34 PM by bobbolink
:thumbsdown:

(I used "fundie thought" as a symbol--certainly that isn't all that is influencing our retreat from real progress!)

Change is erratic, as well as slow. We were going more in the correct direction in the 60's!! sigh...

I'm not onboard with the sort of philosophy of that conference, but my heart has been pulled back to Santa Fe this week! The land of farolitos, rather than the dreaded "luminaries". :hi:

Yeah, I'm homesick. As you go south on Cerrilos, when you pass Don Diego, wave for me. :)
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. Just drove down Don Diego on the way home tonight!
Is Santa Fe home to you? Where are you now.

We're hoping for snow to go with the farolitos on Christmas Eve. Just had our first snow here. Melting now.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. I love that photo of her.
She has such a sweet, yet direct, face.

Thanks for posting it again. It always strikes me afresh.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. There is a book
by Steve Wall & Harvey Arden, the senior writer for National Geographic, called "WisdomKeepers." On page 104, he quotes Tadodaho Leon Shenandoah on the greatest strength:

"I myself have no power. It's the people behind me who have the power. Real power comes only from the Creator. It's in His hands. But if you're asking about strength, not power, then I can say that the greatest strength is gentleness."

That's Rosa's strength. Her gentle soul is evident in that photo.

Here is a photo of Leon that DUer Mr Baggins took, when NYS returned the wampum belts:

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Another beautiful photo. ^_^ I agree about the gentleness.
There's a peace there.

But... that directness. Without any guile, or hesitation.

She knew who she was.

How many of us can truly say that?

I really believe.."It's the people behind me who have the power."

That's what should be the motto of politicians!!
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
26. Are you watching Keith Olbermann tonight?
Just thought I'd mention it since you wrote of Newt Gingrich calling the 1st Amendment a threat to our safety. Keith will be doing one of his Murrowesque special comments on it. I find it hard to believe that this parasite, this blight upon everything this country stands for would even consider that he has a shot at the 2008 Presidency.

Then again, maybe he really does think there will be an American city destroyed within the next two years, which Newt will of course exploit to the max. Or maybe he's just hoping that will happen, or why else would he suggest such a thing?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Frankly, IMHO
The next thing that will be destroyed is another of Newt's marriages. Isn't it about time for him to have another affair and dump the existing wife? As far as the 1st amendment thing goes, he's lucky we have it 'cause otherwise he'd be the first to have his lips stapled together.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Damn, you made me laugh hard there!
The GOP really should change their name to the Hypocrite Party. Newt is a prime example.

:rofl:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 06:41 PM
Original message
I do wish
the Wilsons would add him to the list in their civil case.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
36. That March 8, 2003 meeting in Cheney's office
That was Ground Zero for the Wilson/Plame smear campaign, which is what the civil suit is all about. Everyone who participated should be added to that list. Carville might pitch a fit, but right is right, and his wife is wrong.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #36
57. My mistake, it was after March 8
My understanding is that shortly thereafter, a meeting was held - sometime in March of 2003 - in the offices of the Vice President at which it was decided to do a “work up” on me. A work up means to run an intel op to glean all the information you can about “me.” My understanding is that at a minimum, Scooter Libby was at this meeting.

But in retrospect looking at this, the natural group who would meet to discuss something like this would be the White House Iraq Group (WHIG).

Raw Story: Right, and the group includes Karl Rove as part of that main group of six.

Wilson: Yes, that would include Rove. I believe it is Rove, Karen Hughes, Libby, and others.

Raw Story: Also: Andrew Card, Mary Matlin and James Wilkinson as well as others who advised then-National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and her deputy Stephen Hadley.

Wilson: That would be the natural group because they were constituted to spin the war, so they would be naturally the ones to try to deflect criticism. Now, some of those people would have very high security clearances.


http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Interview_Ambassador_Wilson_husband_of_outed_CIA_agent_sees_larger_Administration_ro_0713.html
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Page 452
of Wilson's book:

March 8, 2003: State Department spokesman says of forged documents: "We fell for it"; Wilson tells CNN that the U.S. government has more information on this than the State Department spokesmen acknowledged.
Sources have informed Wilson that soon after the CNN interview, a decision was made at a meeting in the Office of the Vice President -- possibly attended by Dick Cheney, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Newt Gingrich, and other senior Republicans -- to produce a workup on wilson to discredit him.

(It is also important to keep in mind that Newt went to the Agency HQ with others to "review" intelligence on Iraqi "weapons programs." The WHIG's counterpart was the OSP. While the WHIG handled public relations, OSP handled intelligence. Neither group was made up of elected officials.)
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
44. John Doe 2-10
still available
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Yep.
I'm still hoping!
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Is that a legal term? Is it gender specific?
I'm curious. :)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. On the Wilson suit,
they originaslly listed Cheney, Rove, Libby and 10 un-named "John Does." Dick Armitage has since become John Doe #1.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Thanks.
I'm quite sure you can add Hadley and Hannah to that list.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/020906J.shtml
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. dupe
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 06:42 PM by H2O Man
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Oh, yes.
I will be watching that. That man is doing something special for this country, with some of the most outstanding journalism this nation has ever produced.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Good Night, and Good Luck.
I wasn't around to see the original in action, but I sure enjoyed David Strathairn's performance in the film. Keith is probably the only journalist on television who has earned the privelege of borrowing that signoff. The difference is that now McCarthy has morphed into an entire ideological wing that feeds on fear and intolerance. Olbermann is doing brave, fearless work that America needs more than ever.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
27. None Dare Call It Treason
>>
There was a discussion on the Democratic Underground earlier this week that questioned if that political discussion forum would have been created if Al Gore had won the presidential election in 2000. I found that both amusing and amazing, because the simple truth is that Al Gore did win. My favorite book on the topic is Vince Bugliosi’s "The Betrayal of America: How the Supreme Court Undermined the Constitution and Chose Our President." That title alone hints that the powers that denied President Gore his rightful office, and instead placed Bush and Cheney in power, posed a serious threat to our democracy.
>>

Bugliosi's 2001 article in "The Nation"
None Dare Call It Treason
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010205/bugliosi
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Thank you
for providing that link. I think that Vince Bugliosi authored one of the best books of this era, as a result of the great response from the article in The Nation.

On the back cover of the book are two brief quotes from the forewords:

"Vincent Bugliosi has written the modern equivalent of 'J'accuse'. I am not a lawyer, but I do know that when Bugliosi quotes a Yale law professor as saying the day of the Bush v. Gore decision was 'like the day of the Kennedy assassination' for him and many of his colleagues, this is not an exaggeration." -- Molly Ivins

"It is a pathetic spectacle that Bugliosi beckons us to behold -- this high, hallowed court and its revered majority sold out to Power." -- Gerry Spence
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
31. K & R
We the People need to stay involved if we want to reinstate the constitution.

I am hand writing my letters to Conyers and Waxman tonight as I read somewhere that handwritten letters are taken most seriously of all written correspondence to congress.

Thank you again for yet another great and inspiring essay. I do hope you will compile these in a book or somewhere other than the web... each one is a gem.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
37. For those interested in reading more on the Huston Plan.
I don't wander over to Demopedia too often, but there's a good page on it here:

Huston Plan

From Demopedia

Categories: Covert operation

The Huston Plan was a 43 page report and outline of proposed security operations put together by White House aide Tom Charles Huston in 1970. It first came to light during the 1973 Watergate hearings headed by Sen. Sam Ervin (N.C.).

The impetus for this report stemmed from President Nixon wanting more coordination of domestic intelligence in the area of gathering information about left-wing radicals and the anti-war movement in general. Huston had been assigned as White House liason to the Interagency Committee on Intelligence (ICI), a group chaired by J. Edgar Hoover, then FBI Director. Huston worked closely with William C. Sullivan, Hoovers assistant, in drawing up the options listed in what eventually became the document known as the Huston Plan

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/index.php/Huston_Plan
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. An important point
to keep in mind is that while the Nixon administration claimed the plan was ended shortly after it had been initially approved, that dean testified that he "was not aware of any recision of approval for the plan." Ervin Committee Report, page 55; and 3 Hearings 1066.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. That explains why the FBI, CIA & NSA paid no heed to the revocation.
If Nixon didn't tell Dean, I doubt he went out of his way to tell Hoover or Helms. He buried his recision in a mountain of paper.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. I think
it's funny that some of these operations brought down the Nixon administration.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #50
59. Ya Know
If Iran-Contra had been handled properly and, Nancy Reagan hadn't issued those pardons, we might not be in this mess right now.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #59
73. THat's such a very hard thought to handle! Especially knowing that
*most* citizens have never had that particular thought occur to them. sigh...

Then, it's immediately followed by, "So, if we don't indict and seriously clean house from *this* mess, what will we be facing further on?"

*That* I *really* can't handle!

wadda mess!
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. My feelings exactly.
I'm a little bewildered by the number of DU posters expressing the sentiment that to attempt an impeachment of this administration if the investigations warrant it would be more dangerous than allowing the criminals to continue getting away with their enterprise scott-free. I paraphrase Ben Franklin by saying that anyone who would sacrifice justice for political expediency deserves neither.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. "more dangerous" to party, not country.
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 06:05 PM by bobbolink
I'm more than bewildered: I'm :mad:

I understand and agree with your paraphrase, but I would say it even sharper--that it's putting party over the nation. Now *THAT* degree of party loyalty is sick!

The only time I feel like I've had any degree of success at DU with trying to get this through someone's head is to say, "So, if thieves break into your house, you want them "censured" rather than charged with the crime?" That seemed to make a point. As for "not having the senate votes, so we don't want to look foolish", isn't that the same as not charging a rapist because he might not be found guilty? :nuke:

How did we get to this place of caring more about our party than the country? I'm dumbfounded over that!

bobbolink, looking more "foolish" by the minute...

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. We have lived in
an environment of fear for decades. It has been that way since the end of WW2, and some fairly sophisticated forces create that paranoia on the national level. That hatred-based fear even consumes its own, as in James Forrestal's case. That fear was once centered around the atomic/nuclear weapons and the "evil empire" of the USSR. After 9/11, it shifted to the Islamic peoples of the world. (There are always "mini-threats" -- those who are targeted to take the weight of our society .... the poor, the young, people with non-white skin, etc.)

Today we see a significant segment of the democratic party who are afraid of empeachment, not because they are bad, or don't like the Constitution, but because they have been conditioned by fear. We must be patient with them.

And there are a few snakes who try to inflict that fear. We must confront them, and confront the seeds of fear they seek to plant.

The truth will set us free.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. OK, I am chastised into patience...
:)

Yes, you are right... it comes from fear.

But, if we are *too* patient with it, we'll be right back reliving the result of Iran/Contra.

And, yes, I will be honest about me.... being put down and verbally sneered at because I want to see justice done has made me a little less forgiving. I can only take so much of the kind of slapdowns that DU is so famous for.

I'll try to do better.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. It'a always good to
think in terms of "who owns the problem?" I'm usually interested in people who disagree with my opinion on DU. But they are distinct from those who simply dislike me, and do the snarky routine. I figure they own their problem -- I'm not concerned with what they think.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. It's not that easy for me. The snark hurts.
Part of that is probably that I don't feel as connected here as you are.

Not only do I not have your writing ability, and therefore your following, but being in poverty myself, and the low polls on concern about poverty here .... well, it hurts, and isolates me, making me more vulnerable to snark.

I wish we could all be on the same team, as I experienced in my dirtyhippiecommiepinkobum days, and disagree with acceptance of each other.

Is it really that hard? :(

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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
43. That would even convince me if I were a republican
a normal one I mean.
Just by the excellent tone and depth of your writing.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
52. H20MAN -- a question
Have you considered sending this piece (or a portion of it) to a newspaper as an op-ed piece?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. I write some
LTTE to about six local/regional newspapers. I might use parts of this for a few.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Try to submit it as an op-ed piece, not LTTE
You can cover more in an op-ed piece.

jmo
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. ...and, no reason not to include major metropolitan papers
in your send list.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
56. "There weren’t the votes when the process against Nixon began. . ."
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 08:12 PM by pat_k
From original post:

. . . the anti-impeachment folk continue to hold tight to the "there aren’t enough votes" life jacket that barely holds their argument above the tide of pro-impeachment sentiment. There weren’t the votes when the process against Nixon began. But that didn’t stop those who trusted in the Constitution.

There weren’t the votes for civil rights when that process began. But those who trusted in the Constitution didn’t back down from doing what was right.


The "can't win, so don't fight" rationalization is DEADLY.

At countless critical junctures our leaders have failed to act because they convinced themselves that action was futile.

Those failures are directly and indirectly responsible for the suffering and deaths of countless people.

This is NOT hyperbole.

The "can't win, so don't fight" rationalization seems to be particularly virulent on "our side" (the reality-based community, anti-fascists, Democrats, or whatever your preferred label).

We pride ourselves on being rational, reasonable, realistic, and pragmatic people, but over and over again we are irrationally immobilized by:
  • Pessimism disguised as "realism" that crushes hope and blinds us to the reality of infinite possibility;

  • Scarcity thinking disguised as "realistic assessment" that generates fear and leads us to choose paths that cut us off from the nearly infinite resources we can tap into;

  • Suspicion of spontaneity and untested approaches that suppresses creativity and limits options;

  • Analysis and strategic thinking focused on the risks of action, willfully ignoring potential rewards of action and the risks of inaction.

  • Fighting for what we think we can get (and achieving far less than that), not for what we want.

  • A pattern of avoiding feared consequences by failing to act rather than figuring out how to deal with the feared consequences. (When avoidance -- i.e., refusing to do the thing that might provoke the feared response -- is the only tactic in your toolbox, it doesn't occur to you to think about how to deal the responses you're avoiding.)

The "can't win" part of the rationalization is based on two irrational beliefs:
  1. The course of events and the outcome is known (a belief in our own omniscience);

  2. In the course of the "futile" fight, there are no benefits or worthwhile intermediate goals.

The reality is:
  1. No human can know how events will unfold until they are behind us. At every step, actions and events open new doors. The possibilities between the first step and the last are infinite.

  2. Even if the ultimate goal is not achieved, when we join with others to achieve a common goal there are always victories and benefits along the way. We "move the ball." People connect and organize and figure out how to be more effective. People discover their skills. Leaders emerge. We challenge the rationalizations that block our "leaders" (and will block them in the future if they are not eliminated).

    Whatever the final outcome, we are winners.

It is heartbreaking to watch idealism and faith crushed by widespread predictions futility and pronouncements that efforts are a "waste of energy." After effectively crushing energy and hope, the pessimists turn around and castigate the public for being apathetic -- completely oblivious of their role in driving people away.

The battle for impeachment is about more than impeachment -- it is about challenging dysfunctional rationalizations; it is about breaking the avoidance habit and acting on basic values and principles, even if we think it will be a "charge of the light brigade;" it is about waking each other up to our own power to act in our civic capacity.

The fight to impeach is built on previous battles -- e.g., lobbying Senators to reject the unlawful Florida electors on January 6th, 2001; and to reject the Ohio electors on January 6th, 2005; lobbying them to filibuster Alito. Future victories owe a debt to every battle that comes before, win or lose.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
61. Highest kudos for this essay.
It not only taught me things, but it's caused me to think about things I already knew in another, more expansive light (in addition to once again making me feel grateful to be a part of this community.)

The one contribution I might make here is that I think that a lot of the anti-impeachment sentiment is similar to the phenomenon of generals being guilty of always planning to win the last war. Impeachment has cultural and political meaning that informs peoples' opinions about it, but these are largely opinions about previous instances of impeachment, rather than the constitutional function that impeachment is intended to serve as a defense against things that might subvert the overall system and result in an anti-democratic, un-American consolidation of powers by one group.

Anti-impeachment sentiment seems to me to be reactive rather than progressive. That is, we shouldn't impeach because the right wing will use it against us, or because it will look like payback or petty revenge, or because it will show that all that Dems care about is hating Bush.

But impeachment really is a progressive act, fulfilling the means instituted by the founders to preserve and defend our constitutional form of government. It's not cutting off your nose to spite your face; it's cutting out a tumor to save the body.

If such progressive use of impeachment had been deployed in years past, perhaps the evildoers from the Iran-Contra conspiracy wouldn't be holding high government office today.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. See also this excellent compilation of info about impeachment
and its real purpose, as well as how it is misperceived from historical and political perspectives:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2830486&mesg_id=2830486

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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. ...
k&r for the excellent OP and the great replies.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
64. ttt
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:47 AM
Response to Original message
66. Up to your usual high standards H2O Man!
Should be required reading...I hope it goes front page.

I second everything you say about the reasons why we must persue investigations and the impeachment that the facts will force on us.

We have 3 more compelling reasons-

(1) We will never recover our reputation in the court of world opinion until we rectify the injustice we've done onto this world.

(2) We cannot allow the actions of this administration to create a precedent which will allow future Bushtator's to do the same on worse to this country and the world.

(3) While Bush will be dealt with by history, how will history judge us? Without demanding accountability and justice of this criminal administration, we will be deemed co-conspirators in their immoral and unethical actions.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
68. Excellent article & discussion!
morning kick!
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
70. I'll kick this again. - n/t
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
71. I am reminded of a JFK quote.
"Democracy is never a final achievement.
It is a call to untiring effort, to continual sacrifice."

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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
72. Sir;
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 02:45 PM by EST
As we have knocked about a bit here on DU over the last couple of years, I have come to respect both your acumen and literary ability.
With this essay, you have exceeded your already high standard-I have rarely read such succinct, accurate and timely writing.

With your permission, I would like to do the following:
I am writing to both my senators and my representative, email and followup snail mail, a rather detailed and careful letter and I would like to include your very erudite essay.
I am also writing to "The Nation" magazine, to which I have only recently become a subscriber, and would like to call attention to this excellent journal entry as worthy of inclusion in their publication.

I will, of course, make sure of proper attribution and provide a link. Let me know, soonest, please.

Again, I doff my chapeau.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Thank you.
Please do.
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woodsgirl Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. #66
I agree with you 100%. If we did impeach Bush and Cheney and and then sent them on to the Hague...and they were jailed while waiting trial, we could restore part of our reputation. The other part would be restored if John Conyers were allowed to conduct a hearing to prove that Bush never won an election. That would help us to heal as a country and families, communities and states would not see each other as enemies but as being duped by (I would guess) the biggest heist in history. When you think of the money that has to have been spent in bribes alone it boggles the mind.And H2O man, I wish you were my next door neighbor.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. The image of what you suggest actually makes me feel hope!
More hope and more celebration than the victories on Nov. 7!!

From your keyboard to the monitor of the goddess!

That is the strength and courage that would restore this nation to democracy and leadership once again.

Yes!

Thank you.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. Welcome to DU, woodsgirl!
:toast:

Being in the snow and woods and watching the deer myself, I welcome you to this forest called DU. :hi:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #76
82. One advantage of
the internet is that even if we are not next door, we are now neighbors.

Howdy, neighbor!
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
87. Thank you H2O man, please keep watering our democracy with your wisdom.
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 06:53 PM by Uncle Joe
This neocon drought is killing us.

Kicked :kick: too late to recommend:cry:


P.S. The only thing I would add, is to impeach Scalia as well.
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
90. The importance of History
I was always struck by how bad history was taught when I was in school. They did everything to tear out the humanity and make is as dry as a desert.
Fortunately, I had alot of things influence my love of it. And it's not dry. It's passionate. It should be taught and taught right. Like english or sociology.
And the thing that runs through our history is our democracy and how people would die for it to protect it. And now so many of the people, average people, are willing to throw it away for a man who is possibly the worst president ever to head our country and want to tear up the constitution and bill of rights. They say, do away with it. They still trust this idiot will be the replacement of it all.
I do not recall a time in our history when so many people at the top and in the masses were so screwed up.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
91. Well said H2O Man
If our elected representatives always waited for votes to be available before advocating their consciences our country may as well be run by poll driven robots.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. Self delete; he's gone now.
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 02:53 PM by dicksteele
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. Gracious.
I missed the person's comment.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. QUOTE:
"the ACLU should change its name to the Mexican Civil Liberties Union".
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. Sad.
Very sad.
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