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So, Blacks may get a few xtra points on College Admissions.....

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RethugAssKicker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 12:21 PM
Original message
So, Blacks may get a few xtra points on College Admissions.....
but for the 4 years in undergraduate school, are they getting extra points toward their degree?..... The answer of course is NO!.. They go through the same testing and evaluations as everyone else.

So why after graduation and on the job, can someone say that because of affirmative action, blacks are not as qualified as their white counterparts??

Has anyone ever thought about that?.... Does anyone see how absolutely degrading that is??

Does not my line of argument eliminate the "qualifiaction" argument???
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Don't get me started
I studied testing in graduate school for about 11 years. The whole question of qualifications is utterly bogus. What you have is a huge pool of people who are all qualified. Only qualified minority people get the few extra points because they contribute something very valuable to the university community because of the diversity they bring. All unqualified candidates of all ethnic groups get rejected out of hand.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. "whole question of qualifications is utterly bogus"? Surely there must be at least one job for which
qualifications are legitimate, e.g a vehicle driver must meet vision requirements or a cashier must be intelligent enough to make change or an applicant for medical school must be intelligent enough to pass courses.

:shrug:
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I didn't make myself clear
Of course, qualifications matter. What I'm saying is...

Step One: reject all people who aren't qualified
Step Two: see if among the qualified people left there are some people who would contribute something special to campus life (could be artists or musicians, too) and give them a few more points.

What's bogus is the argument they're making that affirmative action allows unqualified people in.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I understand but could affirmative action keep qualified people out? n/t
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4morewars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. Not in Michigan.
Sixty five per cent of the state decided to do away with affirmative action.

Many of my neighbors are ignorant pigs.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. I'm in favor of affirmative action by zip code, myself
Neighborhoods are evaluated and if they're rough, you get a point or two for your home zip code. The same goes for schools--the poor schools are identified and you get a point for your high school zip code, or if that's too hard, funding level or other identifier as a "troubled" school. If either or both are located in 'disadvantaged' communities, you get a leg up no matter if you're Black, Brown, Pink, Green or Blue.

It would have the same effect, really. In smaller communities, it might not work so well, but they could probably select out the disadvantaged students by giving points based on voting precinct instead of zip code. And I can't see some Cracker McAsshole moving into a tough section of Roxbury and sending little Fauntleroy and Bitsey to Roxbury Memorial HS to get a couple of points worth of benefit on a college application.

That said, I've never had a problem with Affirmative Action myself. I do see the 'zip code' solution, though, as a way of getting around these racist bastards who want to deny the slightest tiny, insignificant boost, a levelling of the playing field, really, to kids who have spent their entire lives in cold, crappy, run-down buildings, with lousy facilities, horrific student-teacher ratios, learning from books that the wealthy public schools have thrown out, and hand off to the poor schools after they are ripped and taped together with FEMA tape.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. I dunno
I live in a zip code in a not so good part of town, but I don't need affirmative action based on my race.

What most people don't realize is that affirmative action is a benefit to the college and the society in general. We all benefit when we interact with people of all cultures and ethnicities. It's especially imperative for things like health care professionals and police and social workers, etc.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I realize that it isn't a be all or an end all. But it would help out those who
went to lousy schools. And it would rule in people who haven't had as much opportunity, at school AND at home, as a consequence of living closer to the old poverty line. Lastly, it would shut whining assholes up--ya want to take advantage, go live and get an education where all these people you're griping about are coming outta....

As I said, I don't have a problem with AA. I too think diversity IS a benefit, in and of itself. But some of these racist bastards (and that IS what they are, or their PARENTS are) are way too worried about some poor dusky kid getting a leg up instead of worrying about themselves, participating in a few key extra curricular activities, buckling down in school, and getting a good night's sleep before taking those SATS. It's a "shut up" tactic, is what zip code AA would do. It places economic conditions rather than race at the forefront of the decision planning matrix.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. White people are always saying blacks are not as qualified.
"They go through the same testing and evaluations as everyone else."

Well, unfortunately they're subjected to racist instructors as well.
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RethugAssKicker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Yes, I have had this experience myself...
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. I can talk about UCLA in the mid-90s.
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 02:07 PM by igil
Pre prop. 209.

Affirmative action helped some minorities and punished E. Asians to try to get a student body that reflected that national population. The scale (cline) of desirability was blacks > latinos, SE Asians > whites > E. Asians.

As you went from right to left you found lower university GPAs, sharply increasing tutoring services, more need- and ethnicity-based aid (and more aid overall), higher drop-out rates (esp. for the men), and a longer average time to degree. You also got increasing clustering in a handful of majors, things like poli sci, sociology, and ethnic studies. Contra popular belief, the farther left you go, the fewer hours per week--on average, of course--they worked; need-based aid made up for the hours middle-class students had to work, and the effect of wealthy students didn't overcome the trend. Average SESes were pointless; all groups had strongly a bimodal family SES distribution so the 'average' student was much less common than 'less average' students; the reaction when I asked if anybody had crunched the numbers with SES as a variable elicited stares that told me they had and were not about to admit it. There's no necessarily valid inference that can be drawn from that remark, however, and they knew it.

When UCLA ditched the remedial English and math courses at UCLA (subjects A and B, I believe they were called) as part of some budget cuts, the cries of racism were embarrassing but conventionally based on the idea of disproportionate impact being a valid sign of underlying discrimination: The remedial programs served students in an ethnically disproportionate way, essentially the same cline in reverse (with exceptions for non-native English speakers). But all the admits were unconditionally "qualified"; they were just not all equally qualified. Disposing of subj. A and B affected, disproportionately, those on the left side of the cline.

All students admitted met the base requirements, but the admits also fell on a curve: many of the highest scoring students weren't admitted, but the curve was sharply skewed to the right of the pool of qualified high school students. The problem is that the further to the right you go in the cline, the choosier the university was: higher high school GPA, better SAT scores, more AP classes, more community service, etc. This meant that the average composite admission score (before affirmative action was applied) for E. Asians was to the right of that for whites, and far, far to the right of that for blacks. Since the grades were frequently based on some concept of average or mean, the minority students more frequently found themselves on the trailing side of the grade distribution because they were on the trailing side of the curve for admits over all--not an absolute correlation, but one that's good enough to account for a lot of the variance. The tutoring was an attempt to award off-the-books "extra points" to help lesser qualified students to finish. I can only hope that it was completely superfluous; otherwise the minority numbers would have been worse, and the administrators I knew would have been reduced to tears on a daily basis.


In other words, just because you graduate with a bachelor's from UCA doesn't mean you got the same treatment in college or have the same GPA or qualifications. Some of this was reflected in the average students' resume: Longer time to degree, choice of major, lower GPA and fewer honors, fewer merit-based scholarships. Knowing that there were ethnicity-based services (greater aid, more tutoring) available would also ding a minority graduate's degree, even if the graduate *didn't* use any of the services. Without looking at the GPA and other university records you'd never know.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Echoes my expeirence in No Cali
Your words here are key:
All students admitted met the base requirements, but the admits also fell on a curve: many of the highest scoring students weren't admitted, but the curve was sharply skewed to the right of the pool of qualified high school students. The problem is that the further to the right you go in the cline, the choosier the university was: higher high school GPA, better SAT scores, more AP classes, more community service, etc. This meant that the average composite admission score (before affirmative action was applied) for E. Asians was to the right of that for whites, and far, far to the right of that for blacks. Since the grades were frequently based on some concept of average or mean, the minority students more frequently found themselves on the trailing side of the grade distribution because they were on the trailing side of the curve for admits over all--not an absolute correlation, but one that's good enough to account for a lot of the variance.

And matches my experience. Those same students who were being out performed at a UC campus would IMO been more competitive at a CSU and more successful. Even starting at a community collge would have given the skills needed to compete at UC level.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
12. Yep. Blacks are getting so many breaks that whites are clamoring to become black.
God knows that we poor white folks never got any breaks in our lives just for being white. Did we?

Nobody ever hired white folks based on race..did they?

Nobody ever got a promotion because they weren't black...did they?

My response to people decrying Affirmative Action is to ask the question: "So, you'd rather be black?"
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. When applying for a job after graduating with honors
the line morphs to: "You're overqualified." If I had a dollar for everytime I heard that, I'd be a VERY WEALTHY woman today. :P
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