Another roll call for an infamous day’s survivors (Pearl Harbor anniversary)

[Cooley Hurd]

For waning number of Pearl Harbor veterans, this Dec. 7 one to remember



AP Updated: 11:04 p.m. ET Dec 6, 2006

PEARL HARBOR, Hawaii - This will be their last visit to this watery grave to share stories, exchange smiles, find peace and salute their fallen friends.

This, they say, will be their final farewell.

With their number quickly dwindling, survivors of Pearl Harbor will gather Thursday one last time to honor those killed by the Japanese 65 years ago, and to mark a date that lives in infamy.

"This will be one to remember," said Mal Middlesworth, president of the Pearl Harbor Survivors Association. "It's going to be something that we'll cherish forever."

The survivors have met here every five years for four decades, but they're now in their 80s or 90s and are not counting on a 70th reunion. They have made every effort to report for one final roll call.
<snip>

Martinez, the USS Arizona historian, likened it to another reunion 68 years ago — the final gathering of Civil War veterans in Gettysburg, Pa., when aging warriors in blue and gray shook hands and shared war stories. In 1938, as in 2006, the nation faced an uncertain future in a world gripped by conflict.

</snip>

More at link.

[DavidDvorkin]

1. It's time to finally drop the "infamous" crap

Especially in the light of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Cooley Hurd]

2. Thanks for politicizing a memorial thread...

:eyes:

[DavidDvorkin]

12. The use of "infamous" politicizes it.

[slackmaster]

14. A concept applied by a great Democratic President of the United States

So, why do you have a problem with it?

[DavidDvorkin]

18. Because he was wrong

Roosevelt was great but not infallible.

At the same time, of course I understand the circumstances under which he gave his "day of infamy" speech. Those conditions stopped applying long ago, and we should have stopped repeating that phrase long ago.

[Endangered Specie]

32. I think the word "infamy" actually is appropriate...

it kind of marked the day in the History of the US that we switched from largely being isolationist to largely being heavily (often heavy handed too) involved in world affairs. From a History point of view the day is quite important, just like June 22nd (the day of the invasion of the USSR by the Germans)

[greccogirl]

43. It WAS Infamous.

[ComerPerro]

45. dude, you "politicized" it when you posted it on a political forum, so chill

[architect359]

8. In the context of what happened at Pearl Harbour

Not going to happen.

[slackmaster]

13. Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened years after Pearl Harbor

You might want to read up on the subject before posting nonsense about it.

[DavidDvorkin]

19. It's foolish to assume ignorance on the part of others

The fact that the two atomic bombs were dropped at the end of the war doesn't negate my point. The Japanese chose a legitimate military target, and they would have been idiots to have announced their attack in advance. The U.S. chose illegitimate, civilian targets and committed two of history's greatest atrocities.

That the Japanese initiated a war of aggression was reprehensible, but having chosen to do so, their choice of target and their lack of warning were not infamous.

[slackmaster]

20. The fact that two A-bombs were dropped at the end of the war

Does not negate the infamy of Japan's actions.

To suggest that it does is like saying if I slap you in the face, then you punch me in the nose, breaking it, that my initial slap was not an act of infamy.

The Japanese chose a legitimate military target, and they would have been idiots to have announced their attack in advance.

The Japanese had the option of NOT ATTACKING AT ALL.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. If Japan's surprise, unprovoked attack was so infamous...

wouldn't the US's recent surprise, unprovoked attack on Iraq be equally infamous?

[slackmaster]

24. Sure, but that's not really relevant to the discussion, is it?

:nuke:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. Seems to me it is.

[slackmaster]

26. Why?

Submitted for debate or discussion:

Atrocities being perpetrated in the present have no bearing whatsoever on the morality of past acts that were committed by different players.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. It doesn't change the act of Pearl Harbor.

But it sure makes a significant proportion of mourners a bunch of damn hypocrites.

[slackmaster]

47. Again, why?

I'm trying to see any hint of logic in your statement.

The mourners are mourning for somthing that happened years before the atomic bomb attacks on Japan. Neither they nor the people they are mourning were responsible for the atomic bombings.

[rinsd]

30. That was a surpise attack?

Seems to me the whole world knew what was coming.

[KamaAina]

23. The Japanese in 1941 did not have access to "smart bombs"

While the Pearl Harbor naval base itself may indeed have been a "legitimate military target", a trip to the Arizona Memorial visitors' center reveals there was far more "collateral damage" throughout Honolulu than is normally mentioned. Bombs fell on everything from saimin (noodle soup) stands to blocks in the Makiki neighborhood just below Punchbowl.

[rinsd]

29. First off Nagasaki and Hiroshima were military targets

Were there better military targets? Perhaps. Kyoto was also considered.

"That the Japanese initiated a war of aggression was reprehensible, but having chosen to do so, their choice of target and their lack of warning were not infamous."

The most famous sneak attack of the 20th century doesn't merit the description "infamous"?

Cool so you mutilate language as well as history.

[Javaman]

31. I'll think of your statement the next time I read, "the Rape of Nanking"...nt

[Odin2005]

36. More civilians would of been killed by a US invasion then were killed by the A-bombs

As far as I'm concerned using The Bomb was perfectly justified.

[mitchum]

28. Or the preemptive strike on Iraq...

in light of that, I wonder just how "patriotic Americans" can still get all misty-eyed about the "treachery" of the Japanese

[slackmaster]

48. Suppose I walk up to you and slap you in the face

You punch me in the nose, breaking it and ending the fight.

Am I no longer an asshole for slapping you?

Decades later you pick a fight with someone else who has no connection to me. The fight turns into a protracted street brawl.

Now am I not an asshole for slapping you in the distant past? Are you no longer allowed to be upset about it?

[jamesinca]

3. I went ot Pearl Harbor in '03

They had started engraving a list of survivors who had since passed away. A way to make sure every person stationed at Pearl Harbor was remembered, not just the ones who died there Dec. 1941. I found the whole experience very moving, I can not imagine what it is like for those who were there. I can not imagine what it is like for them to see the list of veterans growing, who survived but died later.

[tblue37]

38. I wonder if my Dad's name is there.

Is there a way for me to find out?

[slackmaster]

51. Please see my reply #50 just below

I mis-filed it.

http://www.pearlharbormemorial.com/site/pp.asp?c=fqLQJ2NNG&b=239410

[slackmaster]

50. Try this

http://www.pearlharbormemorial.com/site/pp.asp?c=fqLQJ2NNG&b=239410

[independentpiney]

4. My uncle was there on the Phoenix as a gunners mate

and served through the entire war on it. It was a lucky ship, it only lost 1 man, to a kamikaze attack around the phillipines late in the war. He only opened up and talked about December 7th 3 years ago. He's very bitter about what he sees as lihop. My dad, who passed away this August and mom met at Pearl Harbor, though later in the war. We are seeing the passing of a great generation, and they deserve our respect.

[MADem]

5. Indeed... NT

[lynne]

6. In Honor and Memory of -

- the men and women of Pearl Harbor, WWII and the "Greatest Generation". May they Rest In Peace.

[sinkingfeeling]

7. I visited there way back in 1984. Reading the names of those in the

watery grave made me cry. But I noticed that I was the only person at the USS Arizona who was. These men and women were our 'Greatest Generation' and their bravery and sacrifice stand in sharp contrast to Americans today.

[bemildred]

9. Kick.

:patriot::patriot:

[hedgehog]

10. My husband's uncle was there. He is also of the LIHOP persuasion.

Given all the research debunking that theory, it just goes to show that sometimes eye witness accounts can be very dubious.

[denverbill]

11. That was an amazing time.

To think Dec 7, 1941 we were attacked and lost like 1/4 of our Pacific Fleet. We had a woefully inadequate Army, Navy, and Air Corps. France was knocked out of the war, and Germany looked close to knocking the USSR out as well.

A mere 1347 days later (3 years, 252 days) we had invaded and taken North Africa, beaten the Japanese navy at Midway, captured Guadalcanal, liberated the Phillipines, knocked Italy out of the war, liberated France, knocked Germany out of the war, and finally forced Japan to surrender. It boggles the mind how they could have trained so many millions of soldiers, built so many tanks, planes, trucks, and ships, and transported so many millions of tons of cargo to so many places in so little time.

Now, over 5 years into the 'war on terror', we are no closer to winning than we were on 9-11.

That was a great generation. But every generation has the ability to achieve greatness. They just require the leadership and national will to do so.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

16. That's because Bush told everyone to go shopping after 9/11.

In WWII, there was, I believe, a more concerted effort by America as a whole to conserve everything they could for the war.
(But I'd bet you already know that :) )

Now you mention the word "conserve" and you get mocked by half the population. Conservation is something only Volvo-driving, latte-drinking peacenik liberals do.

[Frank Cannon]

17. Absolutely right. The whole nation was on board for WW II.

Rationing was the word of the day. Kids wore cardboard shoes because ANY extraneous rubber was needed for the war effort. My mother even talks about how they didn't even have bubble gum, because even the amount of rubber in that was applied to the war effort. (My grandmother bought her a sack of 100 gum balls after V-J Day).

Fifteen and sixteen-year-old boys lied about their age in order to enlist. Those that didn't enlist faced the draft. And while these young men were away (with months before their loved ones knew about their fates), their wives, moms, sisters, and girlfriends performed hard labor in factories to produce the war machinery needed.

Coastal towns turned ALL of their lights out after dark, so that they didn't make themselves targets for an attack.

"Hollyweird" actors in the midst of their high-flying careers joined up. Jimmy Stewart flew a bomber. Henry Fonda was an Army intelligence officer. Clark Gable took TAILGUNNER duty, which was looked at as tantamount to suicide. Eddie Albert rescued something like 70 men under heavy fire in the Pacific and lost much of his hearing in the process. A lot of these guys had trouble getting their careers back on track when they came back. (John Wayne, an icon of the Right, stayed home and made movies about the war. Ronald Reagan also got stateside duty in the PR effort for the National Guard.)

The people of this generation sacrificed enormously, often making the ultimate sacrifice. It literally sickens me when the circus monkey in the White House compares his war for profit to WW II. It doesn't even come close.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

39. It sickens me, too.

My dad has several stories that pretty much parallel everything you said. He never fought in WWII (I believe he was 9 when Pearl Harbor happened) but
his father did, and so did his uncle. He still remembers the effort it took back home to keep the effort going overseas, and when assholes like Bush say this "War on Terra" is
comparable to WWII, I want to punch something repeatedly.

Great post, by the way! :thumbsup:

[Frank Cannon]

41. Thanks, HKC

I could go on and on about this subject. The grandfather of a buddy of mine landed at Omaha Beach on 6/6/44 and miraculously survived despite his artillery unit getting bogged down in the surf. He was grateful for his survival--was absolutely amazed--but the real shock of his life came more than a year later when he finally went home and found out he had a baby son. He had no idea!

This is the stuff Americans dealt with back then on a regular basis. It was all part of the national sacrifice involved in winning a war. But our neocons today want a convenient little televised war (no interruptions of American Idol!) with NO sacrifice whatsoever, and that just doesn't happen.

[Imagevision]

46. The History Channel ran the story bout FDR knowing before hand about

Pearl Harbor attack and he informed all the pentagon players not to mention anything to the Admirals in Hawaii because FDR was expecting Germany to declare war against the USA, so FDR needed the Japs to have a victory in Pearl Harbor and they did, -- and just like Bushco, FDR had 15-16-17 year olds lying about their ages to join up and get their revenge.

Some of the material was only recently declassified as early as 06/07/06, the movie wasn't too flattering about the US. government portrayal, very surprised they let it out??

[michreject]

49. Wow!

If it was on TV, it must be true.:sarcasm:

[denverbill]

21. That's one of the things that pisses me off more than anything about neocons.

They uniformly insist that the 'war on terror' is critical to our national survival, but God forbid they be asked to make any sacrifice, no matter how small, to fight the war. I'd love to see a freeper/neocon make a choice - either give up your tax cut or bring the troops home from Iraq/Afghanistan now. No middle ground. Either/or. Either fight the war and pay for it, or don't fight it at all. Because if it's not worth paying for now, it's not worth fighting now.

I'd love to see how many would give up their precious tax cuts. My guess is the war on terror would suddenly become expendable.

Democrats should force the issue in January. The cost of on-going ops in Iraq and Afghanistan MUST be fully funded by suspending the tax cuts on capital gains, dividends, and the estate tax.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

40. It's completely insane to try to fight this "War on Terror" and, essentially,

cut the funding from the war by cutting taxes.

Completely. Insane.

And sacrifice? Hell no. I know several people who are ardent supporters of this war, but their eyes glaze over and they pretend they've just suffered from
short-term memory loss when I tell them to sign up or shut up.

"Sacrifice is for the little people" <-- Typical neo-con Iraq Invasion supporter attitude.

[Endangered Specie]

33. Actually the Russians knocked Germany out of the war.

[rinsd]

34. Actually both are wrong because they exclude one another

Without the Soviets holding firm and then ultimately beating back the Germans from their country destroying or capturing huge swaths of the German military machine, the war could not have been won

Without a 2nd front and the destruction of Germany's war making infrastructure, the war could not have been won.

[denverbill]

35. The Russians bore the overwhelming burden of the war in Europe.

But I doubt the USSR would have survived if not for US/British assistance. Between the divisions Germany had to station in France, Italy, and North Africa, and the huge number of aircraft they had to pull from the Russian front to guard their industrial base and cities, plus the damage inflicted on their industrial production by bombing raids, plus the rather limited direct aid in the form of oil, planes, and other war material, I seriously doubt that the USSR would have survived another year if both the US and Britain had signed a truce with Germany. On the other hand, I doubt seriously we could have beaten Germany at all if Germany hadn't attacked the USSR.

And on the third hand, if the USSR hadn't signed a non-aggression pact with Germany in 1939 and agreed to divvy up Poland, perhaps WWII might not have happened at all.

[modrepub]

15. Related article

From Philly Paper:

A last devotion at Pearl Harbor

It was 65 years ago, but memories burn. Today in Hawaii, it’s the final call for aging survivors.

By Michael Vitez
Inquirer Staff Writer


Bill Snow, 86, has withered to 111 pounds. He can't see well enough to pour a glass of water. His eight cracked vertebrae cause him to groan with every exhalation.

None of that, though, could keep him from getting back to Pearl Harbor for today's 65th anniversary of the Japanese attack.

For the last month, he got out of his wheelchair and practiced with a walker, hobbling up and down his street in Huntingdon Valley. Then, after two steroid injections into his spine, he flew 15 hours Saturday with his family to Hawaii.

The pilot and crew saluted him on the plane. People at the arrival gate in Hawaii applauded as he passed in his wheelchair.

Snow wants to be with the last few veterans alive like him. Men who remember, who understand. He knows this will be his last visit to Pearl, possibly his last Dec. 7.


Link: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/16184739.htm

[tblue37]

37. My father was a 19-year-old airman at Pearl Harbor.

He died in 1992.

[tammywammy]

53. My Grandfather was lucky

He was stationed in New Orleans when Pearl Harbor happened.

He spent the entire war in the Pacific, through all major battles. His brother's ship (in the same fleet as him, but different ship) was hit by a kamikaze.

He's 84 now, in good health and I'll be seeing him this weekend for the family Christmas party.

He married my grandmother (now deceased) Dec. 7th, 1945, two weeks after they met.

[FooFootheSnoo]

42. It's sad to me

It must be even sadder to the survivors to have their last goodbye.

[ComerPerro]

44. Id be very suprised to find more than a few here, lol

[slackmaster]

52. But if you want to hear some very harsh criticism of the Bush administration

One of the best places to go is your local VFW hall.

I'm serious.