If * and the neocons are not punished for their crimes then this nation

[Skidmore]

sets a dangerous precedent for centuries to come. The acts of this man and these ideologues were criminal. I'm not ready to make nice and they need to be impeached and tried to a man. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, Hadley, all of them. Throw in Ailes and Murdoch for supplying the propaganda machine.

[Philosoraptor]

1. You can't punish politicians and war profiteers can you?

I thought they were above the rule of law and all that silly shit.

If we had any sense of duty, we would do exactly that, arrest the lot of them, but we haven't reached that level of outrage yet, and that angers me.

[malaise]

2. Add Samuel Huntington

to the list.

[Cobalt-60]

3. They will be punished

One way or another.

[Skidmore]

4. I'm not certain how much confidence I have in that right now.

I hope this doesn't all get swept under the rug and the indictment of their actions come posthumously later down the century.

[Vidar]

5. Entirely agree, but the loud talkers on this forum see it differently.

[pretzel4gore]

6. how much does bush and his warts reflect the society?

here in canada, i hear daily on hate radio those incredibly well fed, articulate, successful sounding adult men calling into the righteous mediawhores, bashing some aspect of 'liberalism' or the 'left' and there's not a hint of comprehension that it's the rightwing philosophy (someone astutely mentioned huntington) and all that flows from it that might be THE problem, god knows the soviet union went quietly enough! to blame these criminals for following the path of least resistance regards the secret agenda (to entrench the pig interests forever in power) is fine as long as those paths are recognised, talked about publicly and fixed. Yet noone has suggested the ownership society certainly has no place in the news/info media industries...

[hvn_nbr_2]

19. How much? Quite a bit.

But it's not just the extremes that you talk about. After all, they don't make a majority.

The sad, simple truth is that Americans love a good war, especially when they haven't had one in awhile. I used to say that 90% of Americans would support any war, anywhere, any time, for any reason or for no reason at all--until they get tired of it. Thankfully, I've had to lower that number to 75-80% over the years, and after this debacle, I think I'll have to lower it to around 60%, at least for a few years (until the war itch has a chance to build up again).

I think it's a serious indictment of the American people that the Mad Hatter could even be taken seriously as a candidate for re-selection. After his first term, any sane society would have given him a 15% approval rating and a free ticket back to Crawford even before the 2004 primaries started.

BTW, what does your screen name mean? First reading of it sounds like an unfortunate conflation of dimbot's pretzel incident with Al Gore, so I'm sure I'm missing something.

[pretzel4gore]

30. i lost my orginal name, needed another...

in a hurry, to register. i forget the circumstances but it was shortly after the 'pretzel' incident. it just means a democratic pretzel, such as that which famously got stuck in bush's craw (it was expelled w/out damage to the craw, unfortunately:()
and referring to the citizenry's love of a good war; i agree. in a way, our society is so damn fortunate (for the middle/upper classes, and lucky well adjusted working folk anyway) there seems to be a craving for some tribal-like excitement, such as a war. the rightwing exploits this juvenilia, while the left, oftentimes, lectures and nags! the news media eagerly exploits the result, and we find ourselves in a multi trillion plus dollar mess!

[Solly Mack]

7. I'm rocking in that boat with you

We WILL pay - the people - IF the war criminals aren't held accountable.

The next tyrant wanna-be is going to be far worse than Bush...unless we send a message now.

Sending them to prison for their crimes will expose to the world just what they truly are...and it will show America does have the integrity to hold the guilty accountable.

[elocs]

8. In a perfect world that would happen.

In a perfect world the wicked would not prosper and would always be brought to justice. Alas, this is far from a perfect world so you just do the best you can and go on with life. Some neocons will be punished, but most will most likely not. Anybody remember how Fitzmass was all the rage a year ago and everybody was so sure that Bushco was going to come tumbling down?

[leveymg]

21. But, they are tumbling down. It just took time.

Hey, we won Congress back! Now, we can really do the sort of thorough and fair investigation that needs to preceed any successful change in regime. It couldn't all be done by one prosecutor facing a One Party Dictatorship, as was the case last year.

Be of good cheer. Ding dong, the witch is dead.

[Mnemosyne]

9. k and r! n/t

[barbtries]

10. please don't forget rice

the lying - lying - sick sick puppy that she is has got to be among this crowd.

try everyone who was part of the "iraq group" - on, on and on...

[madokie]

11. Kick and Rec

we must do as you say

[ArmchairMeme]

12. K & R - agree

I agree - as a country we must protect our laws and constitution because these people have systematically torn them down. We must hold these people accountable for the good of the country.

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. That precedent was already set when we didn't chase Iran-Contra

baddies all the way up into the Oval Office. And we didn't convince the asshat conservative voter back then that how they went about doing things was criminally wrong. Instead, Oliver North was free to give speeches to Right-wing private schools around this nation and illustrated for young generations of emerging Republicans that politics and loyalty to party was more important than our national identity.

This latest Iraq debacle occurred because too many of them got away with too much. They were free to gather strength and strike again.

We have a battle on our hands folks, and it will be domestic, and it will be internal. We have to re-define for the right-wingers in this country what is patriotic and what is treason, or this thing is going to escalate as those who have committed treason, continue to use the ignorant right-winger as cover.

[MissWaverly]

16. What I can't understand is why there has been no firestorm

Look at the fury over Monica's blue dress, here we have had a situation which has been
a million times worse for over 6 years, where is the protest, we have Keith Olbermann
and the bloggers.

[The Backlash Cometh]

17. First, because they are not listening to any media other than their own.

Some of these people have talk radio blaring in their house 24/7. They repeat among their own circles crap lies until it mastecizes. I think the way to beat them, is to take down their leaders in a way that they realize that they have been living a lie. Go to the basics. Remind them that there was a time when we all agreed on what was good and what was evil.

[MissWaverly]

18. I think what you say is true

yes, AND there are certain standards of ethical behavior which should be adhered to,
if the guy you work with is child predator, make sure it is handled and stopped.
Somehow since Bush has come to power, things happen and there is never any accountability.
9-11, Iraq, Katrina, responsibility, anyone? The worse thing that can happen with this
crew is for them to quit to spend time with their family. They should be quitting to spend
time with their lawyers.

[thingfisher]

26. No matter how badly handled something is the response is,

"You're doin' a heck of a job Brownie!".
Such bald disregard for the common sense of the common man is reminiscent of Stalinist propaganda - just dare to disagree!

[MissWaverly]

27. Yes, and the ones that get picked

are the worst sort of yes men

[Duppers]

32. the media

Right on! That IS the answer.

[hvn_nbr_2]

20. One-word answer: CorpMedia

a.k.a. GOPPravda.

[MissWaverly]

23. well, you notice that the federal government is now saying

the voting machines are not reliable, where have they been for the last 6 years, I don't
suppose anyone will be held accountable for that either, and I am tired of news services
that concentrate on non-news, tell us, Andrea, what is the latest look in dog sweaters?

[thingfisher]

25. To bad the Gannon affair didn't get the publicity

that the Monica affair was treated to. It's already old news totally forgoten and never to be mentioned again, along with the Franklin cover up and so much else. These Republicans surely are covered with teflon.
But, I still hope that these malfacors will be prosecuted for their crimes regardless. Our society must purge itself of them and our own guilt in allowing them to prosper and wreak the havoc they have in the name of the people.

[MissWaverly]

28. Yes, 200 recorded visits in 2 years with no real clearance

and yet that was all swept under the rug.

[Stinky The Clown]

14. This is what we got for not going after reagan and Poppy .....

.... we got a geometrically worse crowd ..... and if this bunch goes unpunished, the next will be (unimaginably) worse than *this* bunch.

I'm a hawk on impeachment and then I want to see us retroactively sign on to the ICC and ship these criminals off to Den Haag.

[Gregorian]

15. I think that punishment is way overused and abused.

For going 36 mph in a 30 mph zone. For smoking a joint. And the punishments often far exceed the crimes. And more often than not, punishment is not the solution.


However, there are situations where punishment is more of a means by which we protect our public from those who are dangerous. There are people who are literally sick enough to just kill indiscriminately. They have to be isolated from society, and hopefully helped.

We are in grave danger from the likes of those who sit in the White House. What else is there to say. It's not punishment. It's protection. Punishment isn't going to deter the next one's. After all, Nixon's demise didn't deter Cheney, et al. This is for us. This is for America. Not Dick. Not Chimpy. Not Rummy.

And the sooner we put them away, the better. Of course, I'm not holding my breath. But I'm hopeful.

[pat_k]

24. Yup. Impeachment is Defensive. Rescue the Constitution. Stop the bleeding.

Defending the Constitution is for Congress. Prosecution is for the Courts.

Impeachment is the easiest part. Stopping the bleeding is one thing. Saving the patient is quite another.

And, BTW, one of the primary reasons that Democrats are perceived to be weak is their reluctance to accuse and punish. Instead of going after wrong-doers, they "make sure it doesn't happen again." They focus on processes, not people. (As the corrupt laugh and say "Gee, I thought they were going to Do Something.")

Government is driven by PEOPLE. If the Dems don't start passing laws with REAL consequences for corruption of our government (election fraud or other violations of the public trust) and start demanding that wrong-doers are held to account to the fullest extent of those laws, they guarantee that "it" -- whatever "it" is -- will happen again.

People say that there will always be election fraud.

BS

Just make it a capital crime and watch how fast it ends.

[pat_k]

22. Kick and Recommend for SANITY!!!

Impeach, or be willing to tell the people being tortured right NOW that it is a "waste of time" or that your minimum wage is more important than taking the massive power of the American presidency out of the hands of war criminals.

Not to mention that the Democratic leadership becomes war criminals themselves if they fail to act when they convene the new Congress on Jan 4th. (Failing to stop war crimes is itself a war crime.)

If Members of Congress want to be free to travel to other countries without fear of being picked up and turned over to the Hague, they'd better get on the stick.

And with the War Criminal Protection Act of 2006 in place, Geneva cannot be invoked in any case in any court in the US or its territories. That act is a declaration of our refusal to deal with our own war criminals.

According to treaty, if we fail to take care of our own war criminals, other parties to the treaty can step in.

Hugo Chavez -- or any nation -- could kidnap war criminal suspects and turn them over the Hague. We have surrendered our right to object on the ground that "we'll deal with our own."

[hootinholler]

29. Right ON!

Righteous Bro! Exactly how I feel!

-Hoot

[Printer70]

31. Nope; the NeoCons new strategy: Democrats

Necons Perle, Frum, and Adelman all bashed Bush in a recent Vanity Fair piece. They insulted his intelligence, his judgment, and his incompetence (all things we've known for a while). Anyway, the NeoCons have divorced themselves from the failure in Iraq by saying the idea was right, but Bush botched the implementation. Almost all neocons, such as Wolfowitz, have left the administration. In some ways, they have gotten what they wanted from the Right, and are now shifting to the left because thats where the power is increasingly held. And the word is that some neocons (not all- like Perle or Feith), are talking with members of the Council of Foreign Relations with ties to former Democrat administrations. The idea is to craft a strategy towards Iran that would involve containment/sanctions, and would not take a military strike off the table. It would unite Americans with other countries, more likely NATO nations, and possibly UN sanctions (similar to Iraq), in confronting Iran.

[cassiepriam]

33. Yep, the next con artists are getting ready to take over, like stealing

candy from a baby.

[Laelth]

34. If not Bush, who?

If not now, when?

:dem:

-Laelth