I'm saddened to learn that I'm not quite as progressive as I thought I was.

[11 Bravo]

After some serious introspection, I've come to the conclusion that if I had been on the flight with my family and the six US Air imams, we would have disembarked. Sorry, but everything I've heard or read (and clearly, I'm not privy to all of the info), leads me to believe that everyone who was in proximity with these gentlemen, either in the boarding area, or on the aircraft, was troubled by their behavior. Were none of these worried passengers progressive? Were they all knee-jerk feeepers-in-waiting? Somehow I doubt it. I'm seriously not pleased with what this reveals to me about myself, but I'm being drop-dead honest here. My wife, my kids, and I would have been off that plane.

[ComerPerro]

1. Forgive me, but I have no idea what you're talking about

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Six muslims got on a plane.

Some bigots figured they were terrorists so they had them removed.

[Texasgal]

9. heh...that makes two of us!

:)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Uh huh.

Would you leave a restaurant if a black person sat at the lunch counter?

[beam me up scottie]

7. Exactly.

How quickly we forget.

[wtmusic]

12. Mmmm....nice try

OP is talking about a perceived danger. Not really the same thing.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. "percieved danger"

Hey look, that guy's black. He must be dangerous.

"percieved danger."

[11 Bravo]

116. "perceived" I before E, except after C. It ain't that tough.

And I know this is petty, but you have managed to piss me off.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

130. must... resist... grammar nazi... joke...

But seriously. What on earth did I do to you to piss you off?

[riderinthestorm]

138. Gee, calling him a bigot multiple times isn't just a tad bit irritating?

This is your modus operandi to go around DU calling people bigots - anyone who doesn't see it your way. And then you act all surprised when people get pissed off and tell you to fuck off. Frankly calling you on your grammar is pretty mild.

Good luck with this one 11Bravo. I've been there, got the tee-shirt even. For whatever it's worth you can explain till you are blue in the face that this episode and your position are predicated upon the imams' behavior and attitude, and not bigotry about Islam or their nationality or color, but it won't sink in for this poster.

You need to do what you feel is right for your family.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

139. I haven't called him a bigot once.

"Frankly calling you on your grammar is pretty mild."

Frankly, calling people on their spelling usually means they haven't got any valid arguments.

[karlrschneider]

131. I before E except after C

What a weird society.


:evilgrin:
sorry, couldn't resist
:rofl:

[renate]

159. nicely done!

:applause:

[donheld]

175. It's EXACTLY the same thing

Oh yes it is.

[jobycom]

182. You are correct. nt

[wtmusic]

199. How can I respond to a coherent argument like that?

"Oh no it's not"? Suggestions?

[uppityperson]

18. bad comment

:sarcasm:

[wtmusic]

19. LOL you are so f*cking close to the edge with that one nt

[uppityperson]

23. I debated whether or not to include the sarcasm smiley.

[wtmusic]

26. Good call. nt

[marmar]

24. I know it's sarcasm....

but I'm having a hard time finding it too funny. (Since I would be the guy sitting at the lunch counter).

[uppityperson]

30. true, sorry, meant in reaction to fears getting better of ones self.

had a friend who was cautious but not fearful. I think of him often and try to emulate. Sorry, I was wrong, it was bad taste, will edit.

[donheld]

176. You'd always be welcome to sit by me

:toast:

[seriousstan]

22. Do blacks have a history of blowing up restaurants?

Do they pray before a suicide mission? Do they talk openly and loudly enough for bystanders to hear about supporting Osama? Do these hypothetical blacks not sit in their assigned seats but instead take the seating arrangement of the previous black bombers? (2 in first class, to at the mid-plane exits and two in the rear of the plane? Do these blacks ask for seat belt extenders, which are known to be usable as weapons, and then set them on the floor instead of using them as directed?

If so, then, yes...I would be prudent and leave the plane.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. No, they've got a history of rapin' white womin.

Everybody knows that.

:sarcasm:

[Radical Activist]

32. oh crap

that was funny.
But it makes the point.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. It's not funny at all.

It's every bit the same as thinking muslims are terrorists.

[Radical Activist]

44. Yes, that was the point

that I acknowledged you made well. I agree and I felt it was a humorous way of making that point.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. OK, gotcha.

I also suddenly thought of that scene in Blazing Saddles, which is funny, but totally beside the point.

[beam me up scottie]

34. You beat me to it.

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. 11 Bravo...

I can't think of any reasonable way wherein the two situations are any different.

Please explain it to me.

[11 Bravo]

49. If you can't discern any difference between an African-American ...

sitting next to you in the Waffle House, and the events as they unfolded on that airplane, then I'll ask you again ... please, just go away. (Feel free to call me a racist or a bigot first.)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. If you can discern the difference...

why won't you explain it to me?

[11 Bravo]

Last try.

If the African-American in the Waffle House sat beside me and began to shout "Praise Jesus!" I would move away. If the individual then went on to praise Osama bin Laden (or anyone else whose sworn purpose is to kill Americans), I would have left the eatery. According to the eyewitness reports I have read, this is analagous to their behavior. Of course, I have already stated that I am not privy to all of the police reports, but I do know that every member of the flight crew supported the removal of the imams. All bigots?
I would laugh at you if you and your ilk weren't so ubiquitous. I made it abundantly clear that I was conflicted by my reaction to the situation, and was attempting to institute a conversation about that, but the knee-jerk reaction is strong among we progressives. PS, to my knowledge, Waffle Houses don't exist at 35,000 feet. In the immortal words of Satchel Paige, "An airplane crash may kill you, but it won't hurt you much."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. What if the black guy was leering at a white woman?

"According to the eyewitness reports I have read, this is analagous to their behavior."

I think you're stretching the analogy a bit in. The imams were praying, not shouting. And that's perfectly normal behaviour in an airport. And I don't think the "praising Osama" thing even happened, how would they know, since they were speaking in Arabic. So how about a link to what you read.

"All bigots?"

Yes. All bigots. Certainly.

"I would laugh at you if you and your ilk weren't so ubiquitous."

My ilk? Hey, pal. I'm not the one who judges people based on the color of their skin, or what God they pray to.

"I made it abundantly clear that I was conflicted by my reaction to the situation, and was attempting to institute a conversation about that, but the knee-jerk reaction is strong among we progressives."

First off, a knee jerk reaction is leave a plane because there are muslims on board. It's the ultimate in knee jerk reactions, just plain cowardice if you ask me.

Secondly, if you were conflicted that's fine, but now you seem to be defensive about it and unapologetic. So where do you stand, 11 Bravo. Would you get off the plane or not?

[LittleClarkie]

66. Not talking about getting off the plane because there are muslims aboard

But a group of people acting strangely.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

69. You think this ever would have happened if they weren't muslim?

I don't.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

99. So then you're not really "conflicted" are you?

"This has nothing to do with the color of their skin or their religion, (although Sean would be proud of you) it's all about their behavior."

Uh huh.

"And finally, the next time you want to call me a coward, do me a favor and say it to my face."

That's against the rules.

[11 Bravo]

104. Uh huh.

Damn! How to respond to that type of incisive, laser-like response. As for your objection to my response to you calling me a coward, here's a suggestion ... tattle.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

106. Would you like me to PM you?

I could always do that.

[11 Bravo]

108. You don't need my permission. I don't block anybody.

[karlrschneider]

125. Have you ever been a passenger on an airplane? Serious question.

I don't think you have.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

129. I've flown many times.

So why do you say that?

[karlrschneider]

133. A hunch, and I'm sticking with it.

...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

135. Have you?

No seriously. What's with the hunch?

[karlrschneider]

140. Have I what? Been on an airplane? Several thousand times...

I fly one for a living and have done so since 1964. And taken the airlines all over the world as well.
I have been to exactly 52 countries according to my several passports. My bona fides are well known on DU, I use my real name here and in dozens of internet forums. I don't even hide my real email,
[e-mail]

And I grasp the difference between bigotry and educated caution. My bullshit detector is quite well tuned and I pay close attention to it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

141. ...

"And I grasp the difference between bigotry and educated caution."

But didn't you just insinuate in post #137 that muslims who want to pray in public are morons and assholes?

[karlrschneider]

143. Not insinuated, stated flatly. ANYbody who creates a situation that's

perceived as possibly dangerous or threatening IS an asshole. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[karlrschneider]

146. Give me a fucking break. You know that I know you're just being argumentative

so shove it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

147. I'm being argumentative?

While your argument consists of "so shove it?"

Hmm.

[karlrschneider]

148. That wasn't an argument, it was a suggestion.

...

[donheld]

177. Sources Please N/T

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/29/1436216&mode=thread&tid=25

[beam me up scottie]

52. I don't think you're a bigot, 11 Bravo.

I think the fact that you even considered what you'd do in the same situation shows you're a liberal.

An honest one.

I do think a parallel between the behaviour of some of the real passengers and how white people responded to black men in the south a few decades ago isn't so far fetched.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

56. Everybody has bigoted thoughts.

What matters is, whether we act on them or reject them.

[uppityperson]

88. or do we act on them and then think later and perhaps learn from ourselves.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

89. Hopefully we learn from ourselves.

Instead of acting defensive about it and lashing out at other people.

[XOKCowboy]

142. It IS a matter of perception...

and the two scenarios are a lot alike, 11Bravo. It's a percieved threat. The people that discriminated against blacks in the South grew up percieving black people as a threat. To their daughters, to their race, to their money, etc. Now with 9/11, all muslims are percieved as a threat, especially in an airport or on an airplane.

Now unless you can give me details of their strange behavior beyond praying in the waiting area (they are imams) then why would you percieve them as a threat to you?

Oh and yes I can see a large number of the people I meet in boarding areas being borderline freepers in that situation. That's why I stopped talking to most people when I fly.

[krispos42]

170. I find it interesting that...

The passenger who passed the detailed note to the stewardess (descriptions and seat numbers) only did that AFTER the imams were on her plane. In other words, untill he/she was personally threatened by the threat of hijacking-for-gog event, he/she kept quiet.

[silverojo]

78. You're not a racist or a bigot

You're just cautious, and it's your right to be so. That doesn't mean you're not progressive, it just means that you and many other people were alarmed by the behavior of a FEW SPECIFIC PEOPLE.

If you got off the plane when ANY Arabs boarded, then you'd be racist.

But when anyone, of any race, acts in a suspicious manner, it's only wise not to want to be trapped in a plane with them.

[cool user name]

121. With all due respect, Bravo, please explain to me the events that occurred on the plane?

It is my understanding that they did pray but all of the other stuff was made up.

For what it's worth, your reaction is normal and it is your perogative to stay on or leave the plane. I, myself, think it's a bit of an over reaction - but unless presented with the same situation, I can't say exactly how I would react. It is my hope that I would act responsibly and rationally.

But we are all human and prone to our own innate prejudices.

[11 Bravo]

122. I wasn't on the plane, and as I tried to make clear in the OP ...

my reaction would have been predicated on what I have discerned from the print and broadcast media. As for how I personally would have reacted, given what I know now, I have already made that clear. But after a passenger, fluent in Arabic, alerted the flight crew, and the gentlemen were removed from the aircraft, the decision would have been taken out of my hands.

[cool user name]

127. I understand that ...

... please don't take my post as a condemnation. Like I said, I don't know what I would have done myself.

I guess the main point of my post is that we really don't know what happened. I saw an interview with one of the Imams, and he flatly denied some of the events that transpired. So it's a case of he said, she said.

In the end, we're left with a very unfortunate situation. You are reflecting on your behavior (rightly or wrongly) and the Imams were treated in a less than dignified way. We on the internets are left with trying to discern with what exactly happened but will likely never know.

Everyone loses.

I think it may be more constructive to try and figure out how we got to be this way. All of us - as a nation. What has happened?

Again, for what it's worth, I'm not judging you for your actions. That was your perogative.

[krispos42]

173. The way it was reported in the paper and on the AM (I'm in the Twin Cities)

They prayed in the waiting area, then at some point shortly thereafter boarded the plane. The prayers were the standard 5-times-a-day devout Muslim prayers. They also spoke in the waiting area in Arabic. And on the plane, they had different seats in different sections, apparently to try to relieve the suspicion that a clump of devout Muslims were going to try something.

Guess that last part didn't work. And what irritated me is that, after running these guys through the ringer after the incident, they STILL wouldn't let them fly!

Anyway, according to a Star Tribune columnist, the story was more involved.

The incident began with the imams praying very loudly, almost shouting, according to Rader and a witness statement attached to the police report. (The report does not name any witnesses.) One passenger on Flight 300 observed something else. The imams "seemed angry," and had a "heated discussion" by the ticket counter, he wrote in his statement. The men spoke about the U.S. and "killing Saddam," and two of the men then swore under their breath.

The imams' demeanor changed markedly when boarding was called, the passenger reported. "The men then chanted, 'Allah, Allah, Allah!'," he wrote in his witness statement. "They walked in line for the flight, composed and calm, very different than they had been behind the wall/screen of the desk."

A second passenger, who wrote in his statement that he often travels to the Middle East, also found the imams' conduct "atypical for my experience with Muslims, including ... the way in which they observed their prayers."

But while many passengers observed the imams at prayer, not one passenger refused to board the plane, or apparently even mentioned the matter to US Airways personnel at the time, according to Rader.

Once the imams were on the plane, the crew noticed some of them switching seats. Two sat in first class, though a gate agent had, according to a statement, earlier rejected Shahin's request for a second first class seat, since none were available. One imam "stood at row 4C and pretended to be blind" in an apparent effort to persuade another passenger to switch seats, an off-duty flight attendant wrote in a statement. (The imams claim that he is blind.)

The imams ended up spread out: two in the front of the aircraft, two in the middle, and two in the rear. The 9/11 hijackers used this configuration, which potentially allows control of the area around the cockpit door and all the exit rows, according to Rader. Shahin, the group's leader, sat in seat 1D, closest to the cockpit.

As time passed, several passengers, including an Arabic speaker seated near one of the imams, approached the crew to report suspicions.

Three imams requested seat belt extensions, which increased the crew's concern. "I did not see they actually needed them," one off-duty flight attendant said of two of them in a statement. "They were not overweight."

The extensions are used by people who can't make the regular belts fit. The three imams who requested extensions weighed in, according to the police report and Rader, at 6 feet 1 inch and 201 pounds, 5 feet nine and 170 pounds, and 6 feet and 230 pounds.

An extension is a belt with a heavy buckle that can be turned into a weapon by being wrapped around a fist or used as a noose to take a hostage, according to Rader. After the imams deplaned, crew members discovered extensions -- not affixed to the seatbelts, but rolled up and placed beneath the seats, Rader said.

<snip>

The captain learned during these discussions that three imams apparently had only one-way tickets and only one had checked luggage -- suspicious factors after 9/11. The subsequent investigation suggests that they may have changed their reservations, which wouldn't have been apparent at the time, says Rader.

<more>

http://www.startribune.com/191/story/859326.html

If you need to log-in to see it, use loginID=poisonfrog, password=nectar to see it. Thanks to bugmenot.com for that info!

[cool user name]

195. Thank you for posting that, krispos42,

[krispos42]

169. The airplane incident was a combination of things

Strike 1, being Muslims (cuz all Moose-limbs want to drink the blood of American white Christian babies, don't ya know?!?!!?? Rush said it, so it's gotta be true!)
Strike 2, praying before getting on the flight (we who are about to die, salute you! Or, Allah, keep this plane in one piece until we land.)
Strike 3, discussing OBL in the waiting area (because, OMG, talking about current events in a room with a 40" LCD TV that is tuned to CNN day and night? OMG!!!!)

Is is stupid? Yes, for two reasons:

Reason 1: If they were plotting to take over the plane, they were the dumbest terrorists on the planet. They might as well have been asking each other if they have their sharpened credit cards and suicide bombs ready, in very loud voices, in English, in the waiting area.

I'm thinking that if they had tried to pull something, the already-wary passengers would have lept up and stabbed them in their throats with ball-point pens immediately. Like Jay Mohr said... "Click-click, click-click".

Reason 2: If there was a terrorist plot to take the plane, then those six guys were not the only terrorists on the plane. There were probably 10 or 12 terrorists on the plane, with the six 'obvious' potential terrorists the decoy, the distraction. Four or six more terrorists, perhaps of Balkan Muslim descent (white, blond, blue-eyed, casually dressed) would be on the plane doing stuff while the passengers were looking for more dark-skinned, mustacheoed guys in robes to grab a stewardess and make demands.

By contrast, the generic black guy at the lunch counter eating eggs and bacon is not a threat to anybody. However, if the black guy at the counter was dressed gangland style and seemed to keep eyeballing the cash register, then that might warrant a police investigation.

[donheld]

178. Yo outta here

Hey! You! Get off of my cloud
Don't hang around 'cause two's a crowd
On my cloud, baby

:evilgrin:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

59. I know that the imams in question

were praying before they got on the plane, and that they spoke Arabic while on the plane; apparently some of their comments invovled criticism of Bush. I believe there were other Arabic speakers on the plane who felt that the comments, along with moving around in the plane, constituted a threat.

In my case, I honestly don't know what I would have done. I know enough Arabic that I would have realized they were praying, but not enough to understand regular conversation. I do feel that they were a bit obnoxious in their demands for seating arrangements, but I wonder if anyone who was really interested in blowing up a plane would have drawn such attention to themselves, especially before the flight started?

The head of my order said soon after 911 (when he had been detained on a flight from Switzerland to the US, mainly because of his appearance and name)that it was important NOT to get mad at anyone who might detain us at airports-recognize that they are afraid, and have sympathy for their fear. Treat them as you would be treated, and for heaven's sake, don't make a scene. Making a display of your faith just gives comfort to the ego-and our spiritual quest is to become masters of the ego, not the other way 'round!

[WindRavenX]

72. Well, you admited you're a bigot

So, quite frankly, deal with people calling you out.

You've given into irrational, emotionally charged fear.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

162. Hey, let's face it......

If you had been one of the folks who had overtaken Robert Reid, the shoebomber, and posted about it, there would be a certain contingent that posts here implying you were a part of a bigoted hate-filled lynch mob, overreacted and you should be ashamed. It's just a few, but they are vocal, refuse to let go and scour the board for exactly these type of threads so they can display the superiority gene.

You made an honest statement. I don't like flying myself, and depending on what day it was, I might have felt the same, although my tendancy is to think that the next plane hijacking will not be carried out by someone calling attention to themselves beforehand.

[Freddie Stubbs]

200. Not at lunch counters

;)

[uppityperson]

43. "mentioned osama" from wiki, not support but mentioned.

According to a nearby passenger who spoke Arabic, the two imams sitting in the back of the plane, while speaking to each other in Arabic, mentioned Osama bin Laden and condemned America for "killing Saddam".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Imams_controversy

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

46. Uh oh. You just mentioned Osama. I better leave.

Oh, shit. I just mentioned him too. Maybe I'm a terrorist. I should report myself.

[EstimatedProphet]

67. Do Muslims have a history of blowing up restaurants? Seriously?

No. They don't.

For every Muslim you can name that did an act of terrorism, I can name an Irish terrorist. It is BULLSHIT to fall back on "Muslims are terrorists" because they AREN'T. It's just a few of them, just like it's just a few of the Irish, just like it's just a few rednecks.

[Dorian Gray]

90. Tell that to the Israelis....

a few restaurants have been bombed there.

[EstimatedProphet]

92. Tell that to the Irish

I don't give a damn whether Muslims and Middle Easterners have been implicated in bombing anything. That does not make Muslims terrorists as a group, and to say otherwise if flatly racist.

[Dorian Gray]

105. Nor did I say so...

and as an Irish person, I know that the Irish are responsible for bombing Northern Irish places. The statement was that there were no Bombings by Muslims in restaurants. That is untrue.

Hell, I'm of Irish descent, and I'm perfectly capable of discussing the crimes of the freaking Irish. Bombers are assholes, whether they're Muslim, Irish or any other descent. So what?

[EstimatedProphet]

114. Actually, that's not at all what I meant. Let me elaborate.

I'm not saying there's NO history. I'm saying there's really no more history than there is with any other group of people, not when you look at how many people do something as despickable as terrorism compared to the population they are members of. Yes, there have been terrorist attacks by Muslims. NO, Muslims aren't terrorists, or members of a 'hate-filled' religion, or 'dreaming of killing Americans' etc. etc. nor should they be held responsible for the actions of all their members any more than any other ethnic group/religion/nationality. So we're in complete agreement actually - bombers are complete assholes, whoever they are.

[Dorian Gray]

196. Totally agree

EstimatedProphet. :) I like to agree!

[EstimatedProphet]

201. Agreed!

[cool user name]

119. Ummm ... none of those things happened ...

... or at least they dispute it.

[Leopolds Ghost]

207. Do Muslim clerics have a history of blowing up restaurants?

...You tell me.

Have Muslim clerics (translation: priests; patriarchs) been known to pray before engaging in those other actions for which they are notorious?

[silverojo]

71. How many blacks have blown up lunch counters? n/t

[WindRavenX]

77. You realize that many white people still

...associate blacks with violent acts such as rape and mugging, right?

[11 Bravo]

118. Ahhh ... so "many people" say.

Fuck, you're just two clicks away from being offered a job at FoxNews.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. Fox News?

Ain't that the news organization which is constantly promoting bigotry towards muslims?

[brentspeak]

111. DUMB post of the day

Congrats on the cowardly and completely inappropriate accusation against the OP.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

128. accusation?

No, no. Asking.

[cigsandcoffee]

183. The next time radical black people...

...fly a lunch counter in to the Pentagon for their God, then I'll start taking that threat seriously.

[Redstone]

4. Nothing wrong with that. Can't be too careful these days. Boy, am I glad I don't

have to fly on commercial airliners anymore.

Redstone

[WindRavenX]

79. Sorry Redstone, there is a world of wrong with the OP's actions

It's got nothing with being careful.

[brentspeak]

113. What "actions" did the OP commit?

Speaking his mind?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

163. Worse.....

He actually had a hypothetical scenario in his mind where he would willingly leave a plane causing himself major inconvienence out of a fear for his family. The horror! :sarcasm:

I mean really, if they all think the guy is such a bigot, just laugh at his silliness and move on.

[mike_c]

5. it's called racism, and profiling....

I'm not judging you-- I'm sure you know what it's called. But the events do speak for themselves-- whatever anyone "heard" was clearly in error-- they were just six American imams returning from a conference, and they prayed as is customary at that time of day.

[wtmusic]

6. Candor is always welcome

but it's highly unlikely that they would have prayed that way were they planning an attack. They're not dumb.

If anything, it was a sign that the flight would proceed as planned. Might have helped to have Allah on your side. :P

[angstlessk]

8. Even progressives can be scardy cats...hell I am afraid to fly period...imams or no!

[tabasco]

62. Best post I've read.

Sometimes levity helps us keep our perspective.

[marmar]

10. I appreciate your honesty....

but would you avoid all clean-shaven Christian white men near federal buildings? And would someone who was planning to do something bad on a plane be dressed as an Iman and praying? I think that a would-be terrorist, such as the hijackers on 9/11, would do everything not to stand out.

[silverojo]

87. To answer your question:

"Would you avoid all clean-shaven Christian white men near federal buildings?"

HELL, YEAH! The more clean a Christian white man looks, the more likely it is that he's a pervert of some sort.

Seriously, don't you think all of us here engage in profiling? It may not be racial profiling, but it's bigotry, all the same.

We think that anyone, online or offline, who disagrees with us is a freeper, when the vast majority of people who disagree with us don't even know what Free Republic is.

We view Southerners as Bush-loving rednecks, when there are quite a few Democrats there...even among the rednecks.

There are a lot of progressive Christians here who get frustrated by the way *all* Christians are portrayed as Kool-Aid drinking neo-cons (to them, I apologize for my joke at the beginning of this post, LOL!).

Any time you attempt to classify people in this way, you're displaying bigotry. We are ALL guilty of it, so let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

[LisaM]

11. Were they on the plane or in the concourse?

I've heard conflicting accounts. OTOH, I don't really care to see anyone praying in public (including a secretary we used to take lunch who used to hold us all hostage to starting our lunches while she closed her eyes and ostentatiously muttered a prayer), so it would bug me no matter who did it. The only people I've ever seen pray in public are Christian, and I don't really care for it.

[Monkeyman]

13. 11 Bravo you know what that was training kicking in

Its not that your a bad person. Its what you where taught to do by the Military. In the words of us Vietnam Vets don't mean a thing. Its happens like I said it don't make you a bad person. You where thinking about your family. I know I will take a hit for this but it don't mean a thing

[ComerPerro]

15. Then good. Get off the plane. And chances are it would land ok. However

if you're uncomfortable, for any reason, get your family out of there, take the next one.

Take some comfort in this, though: at least you weren't pushing to get the men kicked off the flight, right?

HUGE difference, in my mind.

[Poll_Blind]

16. What about Orthodox Rabbis? Would you have problems with...

...them on the plane? The reason I ask is that both groups are devoutly religious, both are likely to wear garb specific to their religious preference and they are both likely to begin praying to their deity like, well, like it was no big deal because in America you have the right to pray whenever you want.

If it was just the clerics that would have bothered you, why?

From what I understand they didn't pray once they got on the plane and didn't sit together.

PB

[ChazII]

25. From what I read

the head seats at the front, back and emergency exits. They also asked for seat belt extenders which they then put under their seats. According to reports (Ilive in Phx and this incident got lots of media coverge) the men were not large so attendents wondered why they were requesting the extenders.

[ChazII]

17. You are not alone

if that makes you feel better. I live in Arizona, the state to where the plane was headed. At our airport (Sky Harbor) there is a mediation room. It is to be used for those who wish to pray, meditate etc.... Why didn't they use the mediation room at the airport of departure?

From what I have heard it was not just one passenger but several. It was not just the praying but several other things that when added up raised the red flag for the airline. Since this airline is based here in my hometown it will continue to get my business. And yes, my family would have been off the plane, too.

Bravo, I think this mean that you are following your gut on this, or your 6th sense for lack of better term.

[tritsofme]

20. Looking at the run down of events, I'd be right behind you.

This is what they have at Wikipedia:

According to passengers and flight staff, the suspicious behavior of the imams included the following: <3><4><5><6><7>

The men refused to sit in assigned seats after boarding the plane, and instead sat in pairs, two near the front, two in the center and two in the back of the plane, thus potentially controlling the exits. This pattern had been used on some flights in the September 11 attacks. The other imam who sat in the first class section did so despite having been told earlier that his seat could not be upgraded. (One of the imams, Omar Shahin, later claimed that he, Shahin, was one of the two first-class-section imams and that the other one, Marwan Sadeddin, is blind and did so in order to be next to another imam.)<8>

The two imams sitting in the first-class section, Shahin and Sadeddin, both requested a seatbelt extension (a strap with large metal buckles normally used by obese individuals to lengthen their seatbelts) even though, according to flight staff, neither one seemed to need it; they then placed the extentions on on the cabin floor in front of them instead of attaching them to their seatbelt

The men shouted "Allah, Allah, Allah" before boarding the plane

The imams prayed twice, both in the concourse and on the plane, though Islamic law dictated that they only needed to pray once at that time

Three of the imams travelled with one-way tickets

Five of the imams travelled with no checked baggage

According to a nearby passenger who spoke Arabic, the two imams sitting in the back of the plane, while speaking to each other in Arabic, mentioned Osama bin Laden and condemned America for "killing Saddam".



In this set of circumstances, I'm getting my family and myself off the plane. The safety of my family is more important to me than being labeled a "bigot"

[11 Bravo]

29. This is the same info that I had. But apparently it's easier to toss around words ...

like "racist" and "bigot" then it is to engage in any real discussion. I clearly stated that I was conflicted by my gut reaction, but it's apparently easier to be a knee-jerk jerk-off than it is to engage in any real dialogue.

[uppityperson]

35. you are right and my apologies. Sometimes we suprise ourselves.

Trying to be aware of what is going on around ones self is a good thing. Trying to be aware of how we react to what we perceive going on around ones self is also a good thing. Questioning our reactions is also a good thing. Sometimes I react with bad humor to an uncomfortable situation, my apologies. It is ok to take care of yourself and do the best you can. Not ok to hurt others doing so though, unless there is no way to take care of yourself otherwise and even then it is to be avoided.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. "easier to toss around words like 'racist' and 'bigot'..."

Or "terrorist."

Honestly, 11 Bravo, don't you think fearing arab muslims as being terrorists really is racist and bigoted?

[LittleClarkie]

64. The difference

A group of Muslim gentlemen board the plane normally acting just like all the other passengers, and people freak = possible racism.

A group of Muslim gentlemen board the plane and make weird requests, acting strangely = a bunch of passengers nervous for a reason.

If the Muslim gentlemen gave them no reason to be nervous, you'd have a case. But it sounds like this particular group of Muslim gentlemen did indeed.

Would it have been racist for the flight instructors who taught the 9/11 attackes to fly, but not land, a plane to send up a red flag about their behavior? It turned out later that might have been a good thing.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. ...

"A group of Muslim gentlemen board the plane normally acting just like all the other passengers, and people freak = possible racism."

No, that's certain, obvious racism.

"A group of Muslim gentlemen board the plane and make weird requests, acting strangely = a bunch of passengers nervous for a reason."

As long as the "reason" involves them being muslim, it's still plane old fashioned racism.

"Would it have been racist for the flight instructors who taught the 9/11 attackes to fly, but not land, a plane to send up a red flag about their behavior?"

Nope. Because there's a reason having nothing to do with race or religion.

[fudge stripe cookays]

91. Oh don't worry.

That's typical behavior for the poster in question. He is not happy unless he is pointing fingers and stirring up shit.

That behavior would have made me extremely nervous as well. I was condemning the eviction from the plane, but there are more facts in this thread than I had seen before, and I would have been very uncomfortable with those circumstances. I consider myself liberal, but I also believe in following your inner voice. If I get a hinky feeling, I'm listening to it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

94. "pointing fingers and stirring up shit."

You mean like pointing at muslims and calling them terrorists?

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

41. why did they sit that way?

has there been more info released?

[donheld]

186. Read/watch it.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/29/1436216&mode=thread&tid=25

[BlackVelvet04]

61. I'd be off that plane in a New York

second.

If that's bigoted, oh well.

[jobycom]

184. So if they were white boy scout leaders, would you react the same?

If so, you're in the clear, if not, you're racist. Up to you which is which, I honestly couldn't answer for you, and try not to judge others, either. But from that information, I would not have taken my family off the plane.

[Monkeyman]

21. Ok what would you do in the case all of you

Your kids are on a float in a 4th of July Parade. Because it had a Democratic sign on it the Relugs got out of hand yelling and calling out some very nasty names. I went into Protect mode its my kids

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Could you explain a little more and how it relates to this case?

[Monkeyman]

33. Protecting your family you react don't think just react

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. What did you do at the parade?

I assume it was justified. Your post just didn't make clear what happened.

There's no justification for what happened to these imams.

[Monkeyman]

53. Replugs charged at the float just say they will never do it again

I am a peace loving person I was VVAW . You just don't know what you will do to protect your family. Its reaction it for me maybe is being in a war zone you just react. I did a day waiting for court but my family was ok

[karlrschneider]

31. It's hard to say what I'd have done since I wasn't present but I'm inclined to agree

with you. If a group of people about to board the plane *I* fly, they would be looking for bus tickets no matter whether they were Muslim, Christian, Hebrew, Shinto or FSM - making a big production of some bizarre praying behavior. You will get slammed by "progressive" Duers, many of whom have never been on an airplane or exposed to a similar situation. Non illegitimus carborundum.

[11 Bravo]

54. I've already been slammed, Karl.

I was looking for a little dialogue about how conflicted I felt about my gut reaction. But the bastards will never wear me down!

[karlrschneider]

57. I noticed. :-) I've discovered a DU phenomenon: The inverse 'keyboard kommando' syndrome

Some few who glom onto every question with a vengeance and a passionate discourse on how much more 'liberal' or 'progressive' than everybody else they can be. And it sounds really inspiring but I have to wonder how agressive they'd be when actually confronted by reality. But then I'm a professional cynic. :D

[11 Bravo]

107. Your professional cynicism has led me to click on more than a few of your posts.

I love DU, but the "more progressive than thou" bullshit wears me out at times.

[karlrschneider]

109. Roger that. My penchant for brevity and a low tolerance for BS gets me in trouble

sometimes. :D

[ellenfl]

37. you've been conditioned by 6 years of fearmongering.

that doesn't mean you're not progressive. it only means the propaganda worked to some degree on all of us. do something progressive to make up for it and pray (sorry) that the fearmongering will soon be over.

women spend their whole lives being told that they should not be out late at night or at that party or bar because something bad might happen to them. men told us this and i have always wondered why they thought so poorly of themselves. i wish i could say i got over it but mostly i just got angry.

dimson's contributions to our fearfulness have not been appreciated.

ellen fl

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. ugh, you should be sad.

[11 Bravo]

83. Was the OP in fucking Latin?

I AM sad! I hate feeling like this.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

84. was my response in latin?

i just agreed that you should feel bad about it.

[uppityperson]

45. sometimes we suprise ourselves.

[Gwerlain]

47. My first reaction was,

what a bunch of nervous nellies. Pray once? No problem. MYOB and get on the plane.

Then I start reading, and the thing gets weirder and weirder.

Personally, I'd say discussing Saddam, or just about anything else that's politically charged and has to do with the Middle East, loudly, while getting on a plane, and shouting "Allah" while getting on a plane, is, shall we say, a bit "in your face." Did you know that you don't ever, ever, ever want to discuss anything to do with a bank robbery while you're actually IN A BANK?

Then we get weird seating arrangements, which they apparently asked for themselves. And finally we get the seatbelt extenders- what the hell for? That's too weird to be a fake detail.

By the time this operation was done, they weren't "flying while Muslim-" they were pretty obviously drawing attention to themselves, over and over and over again. Sorry, but I'd be outta there like a shot. You wanna fly like everybody? Fine. Fly like everybody. This ain't flying like everybody- it appears to me to be a deliberate attempt to draw attention. Don't want attention? Simple answer- siddown, and shuddup. Just like I do.

[Aristus]

55. Don't be too hard on yourself, 11 Bang. The simple fact that you are aware

of it makes you better than any freeper alive. Any freeper who is aware that his beliefs are wrong would still probably be proud of it! I can't say I blame you for feeling the way you did. You would just be looking out for your family. It would be your choice to disembark. No harm done. The crime is that the airline removed them from the flight.

To expand the "black at the lunch counter" simile from above: if that happened and you left the restaurant, that's your choice; maybe a little narrow-minded, but your choice. If the owner of the restaurant removed the black customer simply for being black, that would be the real crime.

You are progressive. You recognize that there are gray areas. Life, and people, are complex. There is no clear demarcated black and white zones in which thinking is not necessary.

You're still aces in my book, my friend. :thumbsup:

B-)

[cadmium]

58. Fear is visceral and you are helpless on a plane.

This is why fear is a horrible basis for politics and governance.

You shouldn't feel bad about this. You are a million miles ahead of most people by even questioning these feelings.

[xultar]

60. Would you not go into a federal building cuz white guys were parked out front?

[LittleClarkie]

70. If it's Timothy McVeigh with some fertilizer

Maybe not.

[xultar]

74. That's the problem. No one wants Muslims on a plane but they'll fly with white guys.

[Gwerlain]

132. No, actually,

I don't give a s**t what color you are, nor what faith you espouse, nor whether your hair is nappy or straight, nor whether you got a big nose, nor whether you are wearing a caftan, a tube top, or a monkey-fur tophat and spurs and carrying your pet armadillo, don't act weird on planes, or in banks, k?

[karlrschneider]

137. Ding, Ding! You nailed it there.

Anybody who worships (or pretends to) a deity that would be pissed off because the client didn't adhere to a precise praying schedule to avoid frightening others is a moron worshipping an asshole. Or vice versa.

[xultar]

166. What is weird? Are you to decide? That is the problem.

[jobycom]

187. This echoes every racist comment I heard growing up in the South.

Whites in the South believed that racism was entirely the fault of black people. If they didn't want to be hated, they shouldn't date white women, they should take more baths, they should talk like white people. They were only disliked because they acted weird. Problem was, what was described as weird for black people wouldn't even be noticed in white people.

I guarantee that if six white Christians got on a plane, prayed before doing so, then prayed after they got on, then sat in three different sections and had seating disputes, etc... You wouldn't notice. You wouldn't even know it was happening. Lots of people pray on airplanes. I've never sat on an airplane where I couldn't spot someone praying before takeoff. Lots of people change seats before takeoff. Lots of people act weird. The only time people notice is when they are Muslim.

It's like being black in a shopping mall. The more you try not to stand out, the more you convince people you are a shoplifter. Whites don't get the same treatment.

[treestar]

63. If it is based on the way they were acting rather than merely

being Muslims, you might still be progressive. If a white guy or white woman on a plan, or a group of same, acted weird, how about that?

I honestly don't think it would have bothered me, because Muslims who are going to pull off a hijacking would not have drawn attention to themselves, the 911 hijackers didn't.

I'd figure terrorists weren't going to be so good as to do me the favor of a warning and a chance to get off the plane.

[cadmium]

75. My wife will not fly at all and never has. Doesn't

believe planes staying up in the air makes sense. I am flying for the first time in 20 yrs this spring and I am taking Ativan on lift off and will have Ambien handy for mid-flight.

I don't need to do this to walk by a federal building, so I don't think this is an equivalent situation, but it an interesting question to pose.

[treestar]

98. Flying is in a class all by itself

It is difficult to stay relaxed knowing you are in this huge steel thing several thousand feet above the ground where if anything happened, it's all or nothing - your whole world gets focused there.

I envy the people who can do it without being freaked out. I always have to have something that will occupy my brain so I won't be thinking about where I am!

:scared:

[EstimatedProphet]

73. Right about the same time as the Muslim incident

I was in the airport and saw a Xtian family (notice, fundies are not Chriatians in my opinion) actively visibly praying before they went through security. I still got on the plane. Should I have?

[xultar]

76. Nope. Christans can be crazy. Timmothy McVeigh was a christian. He blew up shit.

[EstimatedProphet]

81. Exactly so

What's the real difference?

[LittleClarkie]

80. What if the same family

had shouted "Praise Jesus" just before getting on the plane, insisted on sitting where they wanted to instead of their assigned seating, near all the exits, asked for seatbelt extenders they didn't need, and generally acted out of the ordinary.

I went to college with a guy who belonged to some sort of Christian cult that had a survivalist mentality. I wonder what I'd be thinking, regardless of the color of the oddly acting person.

[EstimatedProphet]

85. I wouldn't have enjoyed it, but I wouldn't have assumed they were terrorists

The Muslims were busy PRAYING. That's it.

How is reacting like this any different than when Panic Annie brought in the FBI to arrest some Muslims on a flight to LA, just because they went to the bathroom?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

86. What I don't get is...

how do you go to a major airport and not see muslims praying all over the place? How sheltered are these people?

[EstimatedProphet]

95. And this is far from the first time this has happened

As per my reference to Panic Annie, who freaked out on a flight to LA a few years ago because the flight had 11 Syrian musicians that went to the bathroom. And for a while, she was the darling of the Kill-All-Furriners rightwingers, who claimed that the flight was obviously a 'dry run' because, after all, there were Ayrabs on the plane so it must have been a terror plot.

[uppityperson]

100. I haven't noticed muslims praying all over airports?

maybe they aren't wearing signs stating they are muslims? Or something? And yes, have been in a fair number or major airports over the last few yrs, foreign and USA. shit, now I told you about being in a foreign airport, makes me even scarier.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

101. You haven't?

I've noticed them praying in bus stations. I guess they do have the seperate prayer rooms nowadays. So they don't scare the more sensitive passengers.

[uppityperson]

102. nope, I haven't.

[uppityperson]

93. those guys were musicians & 1 left a McD's bag in bathroom

everyone knows about those darn arabic looking musicians throwing away McD bags and carrying flutes. And they nodded at each other, like they knew each other or something. Dangerous. :sarcasm:

The "mentioned osama" bit in wiki about the OP incident also says that the way this is known as someone else who spoke Arabic overhead them, not the passengers. Switching seats might've bothered me, unless could figure out a good reason for it.

[EstimatedProphet]

97. Switching seats may have annoyed me

Often I get annoyed at the fact that people are doing things that are distracting me for some reason.

[jobycom]

191. No one would have even noticed, much less gotten off the plane. And THAT

is proof of racism. People act like that all the time on airplanes. It's a big world, people do odd things. People change seats. People have their own goals and desires, and act on them, and these goals seem odd to outsiders.

And one notices when the people are white. If these men weren't Muslim, we wouldn't have heard the story, no one would have complained, and no one would have gotten off the plane. That makes it racism. There's an assumption that since 19 Muslims (out of however many hundreds of millions exist in the world) hijacked planes in America that all others are more predisposed to it. That's racism. Pure, simple, definitive.

[goodhue]

82. If you tried to disembark, you would have been apprehended

Unless of course you didn't meet the bearded muslim praying profile.
I'm guessing you don't know many Imans.
And where do you get your info about what happened? The everything you refer to has in short supply since the initial reports and the Iman's subsequent denial of anything untoward on the plane itself.

[brentspeak]

110. Rec

I completely understand where you're coming from, and I bet quite a few of the people castigating you on this thread would have been either off the plane themselves or otherwise very worried.

[radwriter0555]

112. That's right, you're not. You are fearful of people who pray to a different god than you do.

And you have no valid reason for being fearful in such a manner.

So what do you intend to do about it? Perhaps read up on the statistics and violent crimes committed by people of differing religions? How about educating yourself on the traditions of different cultures and nations as well?

It's good to recognize ones flaws if one has the courage to change those which need to be changed.

[lynne]

115. You're in quite a bit of good company -

- and I would have done the same thing because of their combined erratic behavior. It would not matter if they were Muslim, Jew or Christian - white, black or yellow - with the behavior that has been reported, I would have been out of there!

I do believe in being open-minded . . . but not so much that my brains fall out of my head!

[EstimatedProphet]

117. BTW let me make myself clear

in case I haven't been in my earlier posts. I am not calling you a racist. I think it is very understandable, although unfortunate, how you felt. You, and everyone else in the US, has been the target of a coordinated campaign to villify and demonize every Muslim and person of Arabic descent. It's hard not to be scared.

But wer have to be. The alternative is far worse.

[moondust]

120. Public display of religious practices.

Airports are especially touchy places nowadays. Nothing wrong with saying a silent prayer but people should know better than to put on a conspicuous public display. It wouldn't surpise me if these guys knew they were crossing the line.

[karlrschneider]

124. One of their apologists said on this thread "they weren't stupid"

which may well be true, in which case they were deliberately being provocative. Either way, their behavior obviously caused concern. The only conclusion is that they were either being idiots, or assholes. It's actually just that simple.

[radwriter0555]

156. They were being provocative by praying? Would a nun be provocative to them

if the cases were turned?

I'm not even religious, but I'm not going to buy in to the US republican driven lies and propoganda and be convinced that all praying muslims are evil and are going to blow up all the planes in the sky.

Geez, the 9 guys who perped 911 weren't even practicing & devout muslims. They were just hired thugs of middle eastern descent.

[mitchtv]

126. if all I read about them in this post is true...

The imams got what they wanted, a lawsuit against the airco. I don't know what I'd do.

[FormerOstrich]

134. This incident made me very angry at the time

and it still does.

Let's think about this for a moment. Those that want to be excused and/or legitimatize their racism is using this damning list of actions the imams allegedly did. Then we quickly add the strength in numbers argument.

Well to start with why were they being "watched" so closely. Could it be because the are Muslims and dared to pray? I have been on countless flights. I am NEVER aware of anyone asking for a seat extender. Nor, am I privy or care what their original seat assignment is.

I don't understand Arabic so I wouldn't know if they were speaking of Osama bin Laden or Saddam. Even if they been speaking in English and I overheard the names, I probably wouldn't think much about it since those are common Arabic names. Last I checked we hadn't actually killed Saddam so I would have not assumed they were speaking of the previous Iraq dictator. However, most of all I don't eavesdrop.

All of this leads me to believe there must have been discussion among the fearful passengers. The hysteria growing as they compared their individual observations....(most likely after the fact and most likely incorrect interpretations).

Had the passengers should have been MYOB. Instead, being fearful of dark men they scrutinized every move, compared notes, and acted dreadfully.

IMHO

[karlrschneider]

145. How is it racism? What 'race' are Muslims, exactly?

What 'race' are Christians? Catholics? Hindus? I can't figure out what you're saying here...

[FormerOstrich]

152. Well, Karl,

I didn't exactly mince my words. However, I do like your question, in that you are correct, Muslims are not of any particular race.

I suppose the best answer I can offer are Muslims are, as a majority, a dark person race. I suspect the reaction would have been the same if these men would have been Christian Arabs.

You can't tell me that the scrutiny they came under wasn't a form of racial profiling. You don't really believe that do you? Only the flight attendants would have been in a position to know the sum of the facts (as presented on wiki). However, it has been specifically stated other passengers wished to have them removed. Do you know if the person sitting next to you checked baggage or not? I think not. This event just reeks of group hysteria. I bet the other passengers were whispering and pointing and acting all sorts of obnoxious.

[karlrschneider]

153. Well, as I said before, I wasn't there

And as I've also mentioned, -any- group of people engaging in clearly odd behaviour would be very suspect to me. If they were doing it in the park near City Hall, it'd be pretty innocuous. In or near an airliner is a different story. I don't pretend to know the ethnicity of Muslims with any degree of accuracy; I suppose many if not most are melanin-enhanced personages (but I don't think that applies to Persians who are basically Caucasian...so where does that leave us?)

I despise stereotypes as much as anyone when they're unwarranted but raw statistics can provide a modicum of insight into reality, when analyzed impartially. That's all I'm saying.

[FormerOstrich]

155. Thank you, Karl..

Obviously I wasn't there either so I don't really know. Had I been there the odds are very good I would have slept through the commotion. I am typically asleep before we take off and asleep when we land. As an old boyfriend told me once, just say the word air plane and I'll fall asleep.

I really like the saying....If everyone was blind how would they know who to hate. How true it is!

[Kingshakabobo]

154. IF this all happened like the Wikipedia article says.....

........and that's a BIG IF.......Let's assume, for a minute that it did. It sounds like the flight crew was getting it from all sides...meaning, the flight crew was aware of the seating difficulties/seat belt requests while passengers were griping about prayer, "erratic behavior" and Ossama/Saddam talk. So it doesn't sound like it was one particular incident or they were being "watched"....although, the seat beef was probably a big red flag.

Like every other controversy there are two sides to the story and not everyone has clean hands here. It's quite possible the Muslims had a bit of a chip on their shoulders and maybe they were proving a point. It's likely there were some nervous nellies on the plane.........regardless, if the Muslim men were TRYING to invoke a reaction they got it.

Like another poster said, you don't talk about bank robbery in a bank and you don't joke about Ossama Bin Laden in an airport/airplane - you just don't. Of course, that could be my upbringing in an aviation family and my 20 plus years as a pilot (private) talking. I remember seeing a federal hijacking warning sign in O'Hare airport when I was a kid. My dad told me flat out that it wasn't a joking matter and to not f--k around while in the terminal. Don't even say "hijack" as a joke. This was the early 70's so the sign must have been in reference to the hijacking sprees....BTW, the sign warned "under penalty of death." That always stuck me as weird/creepy to see a death warning in America.

[Dastard Stepchild]

136. I was flying home from London after the big terra plot was exposed...

And I remember seeing a group of people that in my mind I tagged as "suspicious" because they matched the descriptions of the many people arrested. And then the rational part of my mind realized that I was doing racial profiling without any shred of evidence and it was not warranted or appropriate. And so I simply got on the plane and told myself to let it go. And I did. And had a very lovely flight, in fact. One of the smoothest I have ever taken.

It happens. It does not make you a less worthy person, nor does it rescind your progressive card. Part of being an intelligent and humane individual is acknowledging and learning from our socially constructed and environmentally influenced biases. To think that we are not all, in some way, harboring a multitude of conflicting thoughts and opinions is just not logical. When we confront something that scares us, we can choose to learn why we are scared, or we can choose to remain afraid. Sounds like you are trying to grapple with this issue, which places you steps ahead of many. Really, it is the best we can hope for humanity. I don't believe for one second that there exists the truly unbiased individual. You found one of your biases. Identification is one large hurdle overcome. Congrats for that and keep on movin' on.

[jayfish]

149. Yep, Cause That's What The Terrists Do.

They bring all kinds of attention to themselves before they do the deed. :eyes:

Jay

[ContraBass Black]

150. Praying Muslims don't scare me any more than other people.

Could I have your ticket?

[wtmusic]

160. Terrorists would not be stupid enough to pray conspicuously

They have surprised us with great skill every time, and no doubt they will continue to do so.

[NaturalHigh]

151. I don't think we would have disembarked...

but I would have been very suspicious of them.

[ecstatic]

157. Ironically, any real terrorists will blend in and look Italian

Just like the alleged 911 hijackers did. They put on their business suits and pretended to be as "white" as possible.

But I understand your concerns. My issue would be from other people's fear causing me to get scared. I already don't like flying as it is. I can't imagine staying calm when everyone around me is freaking out.

[BlooInBloo]

158. What's the big deal? America is full of bigots.

[renate]

161. in 2002 I was on a plane with a passenger that scared me, so I understand

I happened to have been behind him in line at check-in, so I saw him check in with a friend (they shared luggage, I mean it was the same brand etc, so it wasn't just somebody he bumped into at the airport) but by the time our flight was boarding he was alone. (I was very much aware that on September 11th there were four simultaneous flights that were hijacked. That he happened to be flying on the exact same afternoon as a friend who was not on the same flight as his, and sharing suitcases with him, seemed to me to be an unlikely, though admittedly possible, coincidence.) Then, during the preflight screening, which in 2002 was mega intensive (I was taken aside for a detailed search on all four legs of my trip, and I am a white female), and later during the boarding, he was sweating like a racehorse and his eye was twitching and he was practically hyperventilating. He would have stuck out like a sore thumb even to anybody who hadn't seen him check in with a now-absent friend. A nervous flyer, or...?

As someone else here said, when something happens thousands of feet up in the air, it's an all-or-nothing thing. Do you take a chance with your life and risk looking like an idiot, or not?

I took a chance, but I have never been so relieved at the end of a flight.

[FormerOstrich]

164. My significant other and I...

use to accumulate frequent flyer miles from business travel. When we went on vacations we frequently flew different airlines because of our mileage balance. However, we would try to coordinate our flights where we would depart and arrive as close together as possible. We use to have fun acting like stranger at our destination (a little role playing).

There are so many explanations for lots of things. We are just being conditioned to be fearful and scared. It's not surprising to be wary when confronted with something "different". Personally, I much more frighted driving in Phoenix rush hour traffic than boarding a plane. There are multiple wrecks a day on the freeways. However, we can't be too fearful of that because it would hurt productivity so we aren't conditioned for that.

[Nikki Stone1]

165. Don't worry, 11Bravo, a lot of DUers are not as progressive as they think

You have a decent excuse for it in my opinion. Anybody acting overtly loud or weird or unusual on a plane would be enough for me and mine to get off it. Even some dude off his meds would be enough for me; I don't want to be stuck for several hours in a tiny space with no way out with someone out of control.

[B Calm]

167. I would be more worried if I seen a christian preacher holding

a sign "Death to Fags" boarding the plane.

[GreenZoneLT]

168. Chickenshit response

Is anyone so clueless to think that guys dressed up as Muslim clerics would be terrorists planning to attack an airplane? Has everyone been dropped on their head in this country, or what?

Gutless cowards don't deserve freedom. Jesus fucking Christ, I don't expect everyone to volunteer to be sent to a combat zone, but grow some balls of SOME sort. DAMN!

*edited to remove seven instances of the adjective "fucking"

[donheld]

188. "Has everyone been dropped on their head in this country, or what?"

Almost. Bushie/foxnews/Rush Limpballs etc has just bashed us over the head with fear. Anything arab looking we are suppose to freak instantly. Anybody speaking arabic has to be planning us harm.

[11 Bravo]

204. I spent '70-'71 in the A Shau Valley.

I was awarded 2 Purple Hearts, the Bronze Star with "V" for valor, and the Combat Infantryman Badge . As I stated earlier, I was not aboard the aircraft, but had I tried to board I would have set off the metal detector. I ain't John Wayne, but you can take your "gutless coward" and ... well ... use your imagination.

[lumberjack_jeff]

171. What do they teach in self-defense classes?

Trust your intuition?
http://www.ou.edu/oupd/trustyor.htm

I know jack shit about the "six US Air Imams" but I will say that stereotyping serves an evolutionary purpose. The people who were "troubled by their behavior" were acting in a way that is consistent with the advice given by law enforcement trying to prevent sexual assault.

[seabeyond]

172. sounds to me it was behavior not race that gives you an issue

with this situation. totally different things

[donheld]

174. No I guess you're not

You've fallen for the stereotypes. :( Neither did you see these guys on Democracy Now!
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/29/1436216&mode=thread&tid=25

[johnnie]

179. If the information in post 20 is correct...

If that is what happened, then I would have been a bit concerned myself. I know it is wrong to "profile", but to me that looks more like they did that shit on purpose.

All of the people here who want to have a warm squishy feeling of being the #1 progressive can go ahead, but if I see something that looks like it might harm me, I would rather be safe than squishy.

You have to look at the other side. Some say that people have fallen into a trap of the threats of terror and that's just what the powers to be want, but on the other hand, people who would like to blow stuff up are hoping you have fallen into the trap of being...once again, "squishy".

[Puglover]

180. Hey get off the plane. When you

become a racist is when you demand the Imans get off the plane. To me it's common sense. If these guys wanted to hijack the aircraft they would be trying to blend as much as possible. But, again follow your instincts and get off the plane. More legroom for me. :evilgrin:

[dorkulon]

181. They prayed.

Muslims pray. 5 times a day. I think if they were going to blow up a plane, they probably would have dressed/acted as inconspicuously as possible. If you wouldn't have gotten on the plane, it's because you're an idiot.

[BoneDaddy]

185. Progressive does not mean perfect

I think this is part of the problem. We, on the left, are as guilty as the right in thinking that OUR ideology is the "right" one and we need to be perfect within that.

Given the situation, the history of 911, and the current inflamation of the middle east, I do not think it is outrageous, racist or irrational to experience fear when witnessing 6 imams praying on a plane.

First of all most of us have not ever seen muslims pray. It is a very physical, cathartic action. This is not being critical. I happen to think their devotion is admirable, but it has been placed, whether we like it or not, into a context that inspires fear from most and not admiration. It is just the sign of the times.

The reality is that when a suicide bomber is about to do the deed, they typically will pray, and in most cases will speak the words that the imams were saying prior to pressing the button and blowing themselves up.

This is an unfortunate case and I think their is some culpability on both sides. I certainly, AFTERWORDS, can see that people were scared and overreacted, as did the security personnel. But you don't know that when you are in the middle of it. I also think that it showed some real insensitivity, on part of the Imams. I mean if you are a muslim Imam you must know how your culture is being perceived, especially by Westerners, and that praying as they did might engender fear on the part of the people around you.

Look, I am not saying they had no right to pray, of course they do, but given the world we live in, it doesn't show that much concern for others. I mean here you are praying while the people around you are recoiling in fear. If I saw that, I would have stopped my prayer, taken into consideration the reaction I was giving and make an effort to calm the people around me.

[Bridget Burke]

189. Where's a reliable account of what happened that day?

Not Wikipedia. Not what somebody "heard."

The 9/11 hijackers did all they could to blend in. The imams didn't.

[donheld]

190. Try this

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/29/1436216&mode=thread&tid=25

[Bridget Burke]

194. Thanks. I don't see any suspicious behavior in that interview.

Opposing views are welcomed. As long as they don't come from right wing blogs!

[jobycom]

192. So do you honestly think someone trying to hijack a plane would act like that?

They would look Muslim, pray, draw attention to themselves, fit into cliche patterns? They would know about seat belt extenders, but wouldn't know enough about trying to blend in or disguise their intentions?

This is another of those goofy, paranoid stories that should shame America. Six Muslims pray before they get on a plane--Muslims pray five times a day as a requirement of their religion--then pray again on the plane--people are always praying on a plane, I've never been on a plane when I didn't see a number of people praying, some quite loudly and desperately--then sit in different parts of the plane--people often try to sit somewhere other than their assigned seats on planes--then ask for seat-belt extenders, then seem unsure what they are for and set them on the floor in front of them...

They sound like typical nervous flyers to me. If they had been white, no one would have noticed, and if anyone had, they would have smiled indulgently at their nervousness.

It's pure racism. People noticed them because they were Muslim, then, just like an African American kid in a retail store, everything they did after that was interpreted as suspicious. If they handle the merchandise too much, that's suspicious. If they don't handle it enough, that's suspicious...

Six terrorists of any religion or ethnic background who planned to hijack a plane would do everthing they could to avoid looking like a terrorist. I don't really blame you, but your reaction is conditioned racism, and if you've ever wondered how the South could hold onto their racist ideas of segregation for so long, now you understand. It isn't a conscious choice, or it would be easy to overcome. It's a lifetime of training and conditioning that causes people to react in Pavlovian ways without allowing their brian or rational thought to take over.

George W Bush wins.

[Leopolds Ghost]

208. Thank you. n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

193. Funny thing is...I would not have. I live in Michigan-about 15 miles

away from the largest per capita community of people of Middle Eastern descent outside of the Middle East. I work among them, live among them, have seen them praying in restaurant parking lots, rest areas etc. In fact, my mother works at the Dearborn branch of a local bank. Every single one of her coworkers save one is Arab. If you are open to it and see it on a daily basis it doesn't bother you. If you realize that not everyone is going to look, act, pray, behave exactly as you then you've got a good start going. But people on this thread making the excuses they are making in the name of ignorance is plain racism. Separating blacks and whites at the drinking fountain was born out of "ignorance" as well...which later turned out to be...well, to put it bluntly, blind racism.

[Orrin_73]

197. 11 Bravo

Go to cc.com and look at the video "Racism in america", there a lady says she has nothing against blacks but listen carefully what she says after that.

[deaniac21]

198. There is no reason to apologise for being smart.

[LanternWaste]

202. we've all been conditioned recently to act on fear to one degree or another

Jim Jones and Tim McVeigh both allegedly prayed just prior to their "moment". The attempted genocide in Kosovo during the 90's was basically nothing more than Christians attempting to massacre non-Christians. And the exploding Birth-Clinics? Yeah... you guessed it-- more Christian Terrorists.

I guess from now on I should leave my church just before everyone begins to pray... just to be on the safe side, dontchya know. Only after that little bit of "suspicious" behavior is over and done with can I safely return.

Sarcasm aside...
Honestly, the only two reactions I've ever had to see anyone of any faith pray are: "Cool!" & "Weird". There's no way I'm going to let fear of any religion's extremist minority dictate how I act. I would consider that as giving in to the irrational rather than simple caution. because there was no one specific action I've read about that the Imams engaged in that I would consider suspicious if done by a white person

Indeed-- I'd be intellectually dishonest with myself if I accepted that it's suspicious only when some people pray, but not when others do the same thing.

Having read the various blow-by-blow reports on what happened, I'm compelled to ask the rhetorical question- if those very same actions were taken by a group of white men, would my reaction be the same?

That being said, we've all been conditioned recently to act on fear to one degree or another, and I won't fault anyone (other than myself) for reacting as you said you would have if placed in that circumstance.

As a matter of fact, I try not to over-play the "what would I do in that scenario" too much because it turns out I'm wrong about what I would have done just as much as I'm right. And I certainly wouldn't allow one incident to define (or increase or decrease the strength) of your own progressivism.

[NMMNG]

203. I'm going to be on two planes in a few days

Muslims or not, unless the people have bombs or guns I'm staying on the planes.

[MrSlayer]

205. I wouldn't have left but I would have made sure they did.

The airline and the passengers acted correctly. These people were purposefully trying to stir up trouble and cause controversy and they got all that they wanted except cause for a lawsuit.

[davidinalameda]

206. I agree

if I saw anyone acting weird on the plane or even in the boarding area, I would not be on the plane

[Leopolds Ghost]

209. All you need is a fearless attitude, not progressivism.

Last time I took a bicycle into an "inner city" area to buy something at a hardware store.

Since I was just picking it up, I parked it in sight of the door and walked in.

5 seconds went by before a would-be gangbanger walked over from a crowd of high school kids and attempted to ride off with it.

I ran out and tackled the guy, who was on my bike at the time.

Even tho he was bigger than me, he ran off.

I speculated years ago that, since Exacto knives were not banned on planes, someone would try to hijack a plane with Exacto knives.

All that allows a bunch of priests to hijack a plane by strangling passengers with seatbelts (!) is their seat-mates' inexplicable unwillingness to tackle them from behind.

So tell me again why I should be afraid of priests praying loudly?

[Jamastiene]

210. Your post is rather confusing.

The best way I can think to answer is to say that if I was on a plane and some middle eastern men got on the plane and sat down ready to fly, I would stay put. If they started waving guns or box cutters or bombs around, I'd worry then. Otherwise, I don't see why mistrust them just because...Just saying, that seems a little, a lot, overboard. Of course, I am not sure what the OP was talking about to begin with other than middle eastern men simply boarding a plane. What's up with the fear if that is all that happened? :shrug:

[S n o w b a l l]

211. Those who think they're without bias....

Go here and take a few tests and see how you score.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/

As a white woman married to an African American for 13 yrs and dating interracially since high school, I was a little taken aback with my results. As much as we'd like to think we're so progressive, we all have cultural and social biases that we're not even aware of.