Three men missing in Oregon Mountains--

[Blue_Roses]

Two from Dallas. One from New York. Climbers who haven't been heard from since Sunday. Wow, the West Coast is getting some tough weather. Anybody from the West, please update us!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Yeah, been missing for a few days now.

One climber got hurt near the summit and they stuck him in a snow cave. The other two went back down. The hurt climber called his wife to tell authorities this much (on sunday?). The other two climbers never made it back down.

To make matters much, much worse, they're getting hit with a major storm. Completely stopping rescue attempts.

I wouldn't be suprised, given everything, if none of them make it back.

This is Mt. Hood, by the way. Much worse than the Kims had it.

[Contrite]

3. So they are climbers and not hikers?

OP says hikers.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. According to local news, experienced climbers.

They showed a picture of one of them proposing to his girl on the slopes of Rainer. That said, the news also stated they've never climbed Hood. And they're in a shitload of hot water.

Best of luck to them.

[Blue_Roses]

9. well let me change that

[Trajan]

4. One good thing going for them ...

They are all highly experienced ....

Many bad things though, like what you said, and : > Very little equipment was brought ... > The cellphone caller in the cave was already exhibiting the confusion that is a hallmark of hypothermia ... and > The other two left days ago, down the most difficult face, and havent been heard from since ....

Their experience MAY carry the day, but damn it looks pretty grim ....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. I lost a friend on Baker, years ago.

He wasn't as experienced, but that was only after one day.

[Trajan]

13. I dont understand why they choose this week, of all weeks ....

It's been somewhat mild there, until this last week .... Luck of the draw, I suppose ....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. Bad luck.

Just plain bad luck.

[BrotherBuzz]

22. I lost my cousin on Mt Hood three years ago

Marathon runner, and all, and in great shape, but zero mountain experience. He and his family had just moved to the Portland area from California, and the first winter he choose to snowshoe while his wife and kids went skiing. Alone, no radio beacon or cell phone, and no survival equipment, he made some bad choices. We still haven't recovered his remains.

[Blue_Roses]

28. that's so sad

oh, wow...

[janx]

42. I'm sorry to hear that. n/t

[mike_c]

5. ouch-- that's severe badness....

I presume that's the same storm that's pounding us on the coast. I would not want to be above 8000 ft with this unloading.

[mike_c]

2. gotta link...?

I'm in norcal just south of the Oregon border. The weather here has been very stormy the last couple of days-- gale force winds on occasion, 20 ft surf, and rain, rain, rain. Lightning last night, quite unusual here on the coast. If this system is dumping inland it will likely be lots of snow, especially at elevation.

[Wonk]

6. Link

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/13/ap/national/mainD8LVM9UG0.shtml

(AP) Rescue teams equipped with ice axes, ropes and other high-altitude gear were once again frustrated Tuesday in their efforts since the weekend to find three climbers on Oregon's highest mountain. After battling high winds and blowing snow, search teams broke for the day without success.

An Oregon National Guard helicopter was able to survey the lower half of the mountain, but bad weather kept the crew from getting much higher than the 6,000-foot level on the 11,239-foot peak. Crews began coming off the mountain in the afternoon to conclude their search by dark.

Rescue teams planned to debrief and map out a strategy for Wednesday, said Deputy Gary Tiffany, spokesman for the Hood River sheriff's office, which has been coordinating the search.

More snow and high winds were expected Wednesday, according to the National Weather Service.

"Right now, they're dealing with 50 to 60 mph winds in the area they're searching, and blowing snow. It really cuts down their visibility," Joseph Wampler, sheriff for Hood River County, said earlier Tuesday.

more...

[Blue_Roses]

11. thanks

I just heard it on the news...

[Trajan]

7. Im in Portland ....

And while its been raining here off and on, it's been relatively light ...

Mt Hood, on the other hand, has been vicious : 85 MPH gusts, constant heavy snowfall with blinding, whiteout conditions and blowing drifts .... REALLY awful ....

Try http://www.oregonlive.com ....

[janx]

12. The Northwest has gotten a LOT of snow recently.

(...Alaska relatively little so far.)

I'm in NM and moved here from Colorado about a year and a half ago. I have family in Oregon. I hate to sound judgmental, but there are too many people who are not thoroughly familiar with mountainous, snowy places going there to vacation or to climb or hike.

I don't care how many years they've been climbing, hiking, boarding, etc....They should know the neighborhood. Somebody from Dallas or New York might have logged some hours climbing or hiking, yes--but the conditions in the Cascades right now are especially unusual, and these people should have respected that. I wonder how many Oregon natives would have chosen this time to do what the people from New York and Dallas did.

God bless them; I hope they come out of this intact.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. They're climbing in winter on purpose.

It's a mountain climber thing.

They didn't count on their friend getting hurt, which could happen any time of year. And there was no way to know these storms would roll in.

[karlrschneider]

17. And why should taxpayer money be used to rescue people who

choose to put themselves in obvious harm's way? I'm still waiting for somebody to explain that to me.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. Well, karlrschneider...

1. It's the basic humane thing to do.

2. Climber's pay taxes too.

and

3. It provides the rescuers with training, so when they have to rescue important people. Like you.

[karlrschneider]

24. So you think society owes every moron a cradle-to-grave safety net?

That's not progressive, it's just fucking nuts.

[janx]

21. They don't know they're putting themselves into harm's way.

We should help them in any way we can.

[karlrschneider]

23. Uh, climbing a 13000 foot mountain in December...don't know they're

going into harm's way?????????


jesusfuckingchrist...

[janx]

37. No, they don't.

There's a "conquer the mountain" type of sport that has been going on in the Rocky Mountain West and the Cascade West for some time now.

People from all over come to conquer mountains. You'll see this in SUV ads.

If you want to take a hike, for instance, in Rocky Mountain National Park, outside of Estes Park, Colorado, you will find that you are by no means alone. The place is like Disney World. Places around Boulder, Colorado, are the same. People with IPODS and nylon shorts surpass you, jogging, on what you believe are quiet trails. I once saw a fallen climber (not the first) rescued from Eldorado Springs Canyon, just south of Boulder. His friends were looking down at him, clinging to the rocks on the side of the canyon. Crowds of people were concerned and looking at the ambulance and at the fallen climber.

[seabeyond]

27. i guess we just let them die? because, that is what we do as a

community, help one another. that is what we do as a collective group. that is who we are as a better, civilized people. probably not a good enough answer for you. kinda how bush thought about N.O. i guess, why should tax payers help?

oh

and they pay taxes too.

[karlrschneider]

29. Give me a break here. NOLA residents didn't voluntarily hike into a hurricane

they lived there. If you don't see the distinction, don't bother replying.
:eyes:

[seabeyond]

35. they voluntarily chose to live in an environment that is likely for flood

and in route of hurricane.

and

those mountain climbers pay taxes too. you create a difference in your mind. as many of us will not slight these people to be rescued you chose to distinguish the difference. and works for your brain. the next person can do the same for the person that choses to live amongst tornadoes, earthquakes or hurricanes. the distinction may be grand in your mind, yet not another's

and... did i mention, these climbers pay taxes too.

[karlrschneider]

40. Everyone on the planet "chooses" to live in some place that is subject to

disaster. I live in tornado alley. My California friends can be hit by earthquakes, as can those living between Memphis and St. Louis...my partner's family all live in Florida (hurricanes) Millions of people are in coastal Tsunami-prone areas. A meteor or comet can strike anywhere on earth. The difference is perhaps a bit too subtle for your black and white mentality - LIVING in a place with a demonstrably small potential for disaster is NOT the same thing as purposely trekking into an area with clear and imminent danger and expecting the government to bail them out if they fuck up.

Even if 'free insurance' for every conceivable contingency for every person was a good idea (it isn't),
it's not even remotely possible. Shit happens. But what the hell, let's just take it to the absurd extreme - pass a law against dying, that will fix it all, right?

[sandnsea]

30. Oh gee, because we aren't assholes

and nobody's perfect.

What a post. :eyes:

[karlrschneider]

36. If my neighbor's house is wrecked in a tornado, I'll invite them in and help

them in any way I possibly can. But if they drive out on thin ice on the lake for fun and fall through, I'd obviously try to assist but only to a certain point. Stupidity only gets a modicum of the milk of human kindness from me as far as I'm concerned. Here is a thought experiment: Suppose I cobble together a rocket with enough power to get me into orbit but I get stuck there with no way back. To what lengths and what expense are you willing to undertake to save my ass?

[Kingshakabobo]

39. I'm surprised to hear something like this coming from a pilot....

...a little disappointed too.


If you were to take a cross country and get lost/go down, should "WE" pay for your search and rescue? Or should we tell your loved ones - "too bad so sad, he should have taken Amtrak."????

(no, I'm not saying the risk is EXACTLY the same)

[karlrschneider]

44. Actually, I have mixed feeliings about that. I'll try to explain:

If some pilot hops into a plane and takes off over the mountains (or extended overwater) simply as an
'adventure' (akin, somewhat to the mountain climbing scenario) and smacks into the pine trees, I'm not
a big fan of launching a massive SAR mission. But the brutal fact is that the aviation industry pretty much pays for those efforts however justified they might be through the unique taxes, fees, etc. we pay.

There are other reasons, though, for the particular attention paid to these incidents...the need to
find out what happened, how, and why, obviously to miminize future repetitions. A lot more people fly than climb mountains.

[Kingshakabobo]

49. I would suspect the State of Oregon..........

......takes in to consideration the amount of money those trail hikers (on one end of the spectrum) AND mountain climbers (on the other end of the spectrum) bring to their coffers. If you want to boil it down to dollars and cents, I don't think it would be good for tourism business to let, as an official policy, climbers croak on the side of mountains. Do we abandon hikers too IF they do something stupid? Do we set up a commission to see which hikers, or pilots, are worthy of rescue?

We can go back and forth with scenarios about who is more deserving of rescue - but the bottom line is it's the humane thing to do.

[karlrschneider]

52. I'll try to address this later, I gotta get some sleep. Got a call

have to fly some republicans to St. Louis at 8 am. What can I say, it's what I do...
laters

[Kingshakabobo]

54. Are you taking along a "kicker" on this trip????

Good night.

[treestar]

60. You're right, there is a difference between adventure and just living

in a place that might be subjected to disasters - potentially that is anywhere.

There is a line to draw here somewhere. People who die for their adventures are pathetic, but society can't realistically take any responsibility. It would not really be fair to those whose adventures and recreations are not as dangerous.

Mountain climbers have to know what risk they are taking, or they would not be mountain climbers. If they want high risk activity, then they are getting just what they want. We are not being cruel assholes to refuse to rescue them, as a society. They need to arrange that for themselves. Though maybe they don't because the risk is not high enough that way, in some cases, who knows.

People who need high risk to make their lives exciting cost the rest of us too much, in emotional terms, too.

[sandnsea]

45. Your ass??

Well obviously not so much, seeing's how you've already said you don't think your worth the expense.

I can't even imagine letting somebody die because it cost too much to save them. Good lord, Karl, money isn't even a real thing. All that's real is people. You can never put a phony pile of paper ahead of people.

[karlrschneider]

46. I simply asked a question. What's your spending limit?

Round it off to the nearest thousand if you like...I just wondered.

[sandnsea]

47. I don't have one

I thought I made that clear. People are ALWAYS worth more than a pile of phony money.

[karlrschneider]

48. ALL people? Are you sure about that?

...

[sandnsea]

50. Except you - you opted out n/t

[karlrschneider]

51. Sorry, you're wrong. I'm not the one refusing to answer.

You are. And that makes me sad, you're a DU favorite of mine but you're off base on this one.
;-)

[sandnsea]

53. I've answered twice

I don't put piles of money ahead of people's lives - EVER. Not even yours honestly - those were jokes. That's the problem with the planet, money, oil, the politics of power and global resources. The planet is for people. We're supposed to be here to take care of each other, not figure out how to beat each other out of a pile of paper.

[likesmountains 52]

31. I live in Colorado..if you have a hunting or fishing license, or buy a

hiking pass you are covered for a rescue...if not..you can be billed for the rescue...

[Blue_Roses]

32. What are the requirements for a license?

Seriously, any "joe blow" could buy one. This is interesting. My cousin just moved to Loveland.

[likesmountains 52]

38. I have only bought the fishing and hiking pass...only requirement

is $$$...I think about $20

[janx]

41. Yikes, I think I paid $40 for a fishing license in Colorado...

I haven't bought one in New Mexico yet... :shrug:

[Blue_Roses]

43. that's what I thought--kind of like getting a fishing license

and God knows, most of are there to drink the beer:D

[janx]

19. Of COURSE they're climbing in winter on purpose.

But there was a way to know the storms were rolling in; they've been rolling in for weeks.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. If they had known there was a storm coming...

they wouldn't have gone.

I should say, if they knew they'd be hit by a storm, they wouldn't have gone. If they hadn't been delayed by the injured climber, they'd have been back before the storm.

I'm sure they checked the forecast before leaving.

[janx]

25. Maybe they should have checked.

Oregon has been getting hit by shitloads of rain and snow for a long time. My point is that too many people don't know the terrain and the risks, sometimes, before getting into "extreme" sports.

As I said earlier, I hope very much that they're OK.

[karlrschneider]

26. The FORECAST said STORMS WERE COMING!!!!!!!!!!!

:grr: :grr: :grr: :puke: :mad: :puke:

[Xithras]

62. Winter climbing is safer.

It's much safer to cross a rock hard frozen snowfield than a wet mushy one. Ice axes and crampons work much better when the snow is solid enough to hold them.

Still, I never climbed in December. I always preferred March-April for the high altitude stuff...the weather was still cold enough to keep the snow hard, but warmed up enough to reduce the chances of freezing blizzards.

I got called a wuss for that more than once by guys who swore that climbing in the darkest depths of winter was the better way to go. One of them is dead today, and another lost his hand and one foot to frostbite. I've never been stuck on a mountain in a serious storm in my life, so I must have done something right. Oh yeah, I checked the weather before leaving too!

The big issue with a lot of these guys is a refusal to accept that we're out there on natures terms. These guys plan these climbs for weeks and sometimes months in advance, and when a storm rolls in at the last minute they're not willing to scrub the climb and admit they wasted their time planning. They think "I can get up and down before the storm hits", or "If I have to dig in, it just means I'm spending a night in a snow cave". By the time reality sets in, they're 10,000 feet up in -40F temperatures with 90MPH winds gusting to 140. That's the point when they realize that all that wonderful rock hard climbing snow makes a really freaking lousy snow cave.

[Trajan]

16. These climbers have extensive experience ....

I recall one, the New Yorker whom you think doesnt know anything about climbing, has summitted Rainier 13 times .... ALL have over 20 climbs ..... You obviously jumped the gun on that comment ...

BTW: I have never climbed Hood OR Rainier, but if I do, it will be in July or August ...

[janx]

33. I didn't say that the New Yorker doesn't know anything about climbing.

I didn't say that anyone had no knowledge of climbing. My point is that WHERE and WHEN you climb/hike/whatever is just as important or more important than the skills you learn when you climb. It's like anything else that you do outdoors. Just because you've gone canoeing 20 times, does that mean that you can do it in Missouri as well as Canada?

I'm impressed that the climber has summitted Rainier 13 times...but damnit, the Northwest has gotten hit by a weather system now for a long time.

[bridgit]

34. here's what they're looking at...

http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=mt+hood%2C+or very wet, very cold especially up where they are, very treacherous terrain experienced or no...sadly, that area has taken down some very knowledgeable climbers, i wish them all safe return

[this_side_up]

55. I read a forecast - Wednesday's storm

is bad but Thursday's promises to be worse.

The hell of it is, they could have rented an emergency
locater beacon for $5. Then they could have stayed
together and waited.

I don't like a nanny state but I think it is time OR passed
a law that requires everyone on the mountain to have
a beacon. Skiers and boarders go out of bounds, usually
on purpose.

Does anyone remember the group of church people
and church kids who went up Hood and so many died.
IIRC, it was spring and they were wearing shorts.

[bridgit]

56. i think that's right, my husband used to live up in that area, and that's what he...

mentioned: locater beacon, simple piece of must have gear, these guys are smart and REI stores are loaded with all the stuff you need to go out of bounds...it's just sad, i heard they are receiving pings off one of their cell phones though and have it located essentially in the area of a known ice cave as reported, it's just the weather factor, they can't get to them

[this_side_up]

57. Latest update

There was a woman on tv at a lodge or restaurant near Hood
who said she rents the beacons for $5 after you file out the
paperwork.

Latest update headline: More snow, less hope on Hood
New storms bear down, searchers come up empty, and families of 3 lost climbers send up prayers

.....

"Hope is fading by the hour," said veteran climber and rescuer Rocky Henderson of Portland Mountain Rescue. "I think there was another accident -- that they may have gotten into a gully or canyon and fallen. If they had found the south-side route, they would have come out on a road by now."

.....


A powerful storm expected to hit overnight and early this morning is packing heavy snow and winds of 90 mph or higher, forecasters said, with a foot or two of new snow in the Cascades by late today. Another, more potent storm is expected Thursday into Friday, said Paul Tolleson of the National Weather Service in Portland.

.....

Mountain Locator Units, rented for $5 a day at mountain shops, would have told searchers where the climbers are, according to Steve Rollins, president of Portland Mountain Rescue. Instead, "we don't even know what side of the mountain they're on," he said.

.....

"The skilled type of people who can operate in this environment are pretty limited," Wampler said. "We're running out of people. We had 40 up yesterday, and after a day of climbing, they're done. They need a couple of days' rest."
.....

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1165985714267120.xml&coll=7&thispage=1

[bridgit]

58. it is becoming sadder by the hour...n/t...

[Trajan]

61. While I think the beacon is wise ..... Would it help now ? ...

They know essentially where the injured man is, but they CANNOT get to him because the brutal conditions are SO bad they cant rise above 8500 feet ....

So, while the point about the beacon is proper in many circumstances, they are worthless at this time ...

[theHandpuppet]

63. Now yours is an idea with which I totally agree!

If we're all required by law to buckle up for a drive to the corner store, then by God climbers scaling treacherous mountain peaks should be REQUIRED to carry locater beacons.

I feel for the families of these lost climbers, but I also feel for the families of those who are putting their own lives at risk to rescue thrill seekers.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

59. It can happen to the best:

A good family friend died on Mt. Rainier with Willi Unsoeld, the great American climber who scaled Everest in 1963. He was a true-blue mountaineer, and a careful planner. But he went down, with Janie Diepenbrock. And he had climbed Rainier 200 times!

People from the east and South really do not understand how brutal the weather coming off the Pacific can be - how quickly the weather can deteriorate.

Even if these folks had a beacon, there is a good chance the SAR teams would be undable to reach them in this storm-series.

[LWolf]

64. Weather is weird.

We have plenty of snow in the mountains, but it is unseasonably warm here where I sit. I didn't even have to keep a fire going last night (my heat source). It's been raining all week. We've had one light snow that was gone in a couple of days.

The weather and mountains are taking their toll, though. We lost a guy on an ATV, out playing on snow trails, locally, the week before the Kim disaster.

[OregonBlue]

65. I don't care how many times someone has climbed Ranier. You just

shouldn't climb Hood in December. We get such nasty weather so fast. They had to know a big storm was moving in. It's been all over the news for days. Surely someone planning this big of a climb would have known. Hood claims a lot of lives, even in spring/summer.

I really pray for them but their chances are not good.