Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

SURGE--baby--yeah

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
vixengrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 12:05 AM
Original message
SURGE--baby--yeah
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/IraqCoverage/story?id=2731720

Well, how would you like to surge to victory?

Want to do it on the backs of people staying in when they should be out? Want to do it on the backs of those on their third tour? Want to do it with 20,000, or wait, I know, 30,000, new troops?

Well, you can, if you're the Decider. See, he's the Commander-in-Chief, and he, and Dick Cheney, looked at the ISG report. And they looked at the November election results. And they looked at what they felt they had to do--they are going to surge. That's how you handle insurgents. See?

And it sounds so positive--surge forward. Surging popularity. Surging poll numbers. Surging testosterone. An "urge to surge." Except that a lot of people aren't really "feeling it." Like General John Abizaid, who doesn't believe we need more troops there http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200611/s1789691.htm. Like the American people, http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-poll13dec13,1,6941388.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&ctrack=1&cset=true . And the Army will be mightily stretched to provide them, http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/14/national/main2266367.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_2266367 . Even Colin Powell thinks it's a bad idea, http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a0kk9WiaajU0&refer=home

The question of the hour is--what does he plan to do with these extra troops? That the idea is to quell the insurgency is well and good--if that's what will actually happen. So, some will go to Baghdad--we certainly need quelling there--and from there where? Anbar--that might be a target.

I see Sunni targets, really. It's the Sunni insurgent they mention, after all, when they get to mentioning who they are or what they stand for. Not former Baathist or former Saddamist, just, Sunni, because they are the minority in Iraq. The Shia are kind of a serious part of the gov't. The thing they might do we can call the 80 percent solution--hey, there's the famous fraction. Maybe 80 percent of the Sunni totally hate US involvement since we kicked out their leader. The Sunni are in the minority, but maybe it's more like 30 percent as opposed to 20--but they hope to pacify the 80% http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A6007-2004Nov22?language=printer. There is also a name--The Darwin Principle (which I am sure the venerable naturalist would repudiate any association with) http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/weekinreview/17cooper.html?_r=1&oref=slogin that suggests the minority Sunni are SOL.

But one line should stand out: while there are more Shiites than Sunnis in Iraq and Iran, there are more Sunnis than Shiites almost everywhere else.

And it is so--the House of Saud, and Al Quada are both Sunni. Our enemies, and our sometimes allies. And yet we http://d-day.blogspot.com/2006/12/fly-in-80-ointment.html decided to side with the majority Shia in the civil war that the White house does not yet really acknowledge exists.

Would this be a good move in the war on terror--really? Especially since Maliki has shown a great deal of flexibility--he's reached out to Saddam's former Army: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-iraq17dec17,0,39370.story?coll=la-home-headlines. He's showing leadership--an attempt to pull things together. Isn't that indicative of what we want in Iraq? That Iraq is sovereign, and standing up?

It is said Cheney is very keen on the 80 percent solution: http://d-day.blogspot.com/2006/12/fly-in-80-ointment.html, maybe because in '91 he let the Shia out to hang in their attempt to overthrow Saddam, with a basic, good old-fashioned massacre in the aftermath. Perhaps he can even shrug off the term "genocide".

But why, oh why, would they do it? If the people hate it, if the region will be less stable, if it won't do diddly against terror (ahem, what alledgedly we are fighting about). If it leads to war crimes, perhaps--why bother? Is this "surge" such a great war product? Will it make everyone in the administration look less like hopeless screw-ups? Is this why we are sendind it more troops?

So Bush isn't a loser? So history, which he may not even be alive to witness, will say he was right?

Or politically, so he can stick an even bigger disaster to his putatively Democratic successor. There's a possibility.

Hey, McCain supports more troops in--there is your sign:

It's *political.*
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
vixengrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. Kick me in the morning.
Then just walk away...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. Well done!
Nominated, as this is an important topic, which deserves our attention and further discussion. Also, the OP is very well done, and provides interesting information.

I would not agree that VP Cheney is an advocate of the 80% solution. He was, in fact, called to meet with the Saudi's on 11-24. It would be difficult to imagine him traveling to meet with any other foreign powers in these circumstances. The Saudis discussed their support for the Sunni population in Iraq with Cheney.

We are witnessing the preparation for a "surge" directed at the forces the Saudis identify as the opponents of the Sunni population. In particular, this is the Madhi militia that is loyal to al-Sadr. It is estimated to be 60,000 strong. The "surge" proposal has been on the table for several months; it took on a new energy as a result of Cheney's trip.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vixengrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Damn--go after the majority Shia? Makes sense, though,
in light of Cheney's being "summoned". It would also make for a more protracted, bloody horrible scenario. For these guys, worse is better.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
3. es·ca·late
es·ca·la·tion... 1. to increase in intensity, magnitude, etc.: to escalate a war; a time when prices escalate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. "a time when prices escalate"
It will be an expensive move, no doubt. It could well cause the violence to "surge" throughout the Middle East. Chris Matthews said he thinks the American public made it clear they are opposed to the war, and that the "surge" will be viewed much like Nixon's surge in Cambodia.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. The price in human blood, is the part that hurts the most...
For the benefit of Exxon, Halliburton and Bush/Cheney's other assorted donors and friends pocketbooks. And for trying to save Bush's political ass! The cost in blood, is unbearable.

I'm glad I was on the side that said...DON'T GO!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
4. It's a Greek tragedy, the conclusion is inevitable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
7. Oh, I think the "sign" is more akin to "STUPID" [tm Bill Engvall].
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. evening kick
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
10. Does anybody really think that 10-20-or even 30,000 more troops will change anything?
It sure didn't in Vietnam.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. just more troops killed & injured
:(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ItsTheMediaStupid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. No. They're not even in the ball park. 500,000 might change things
Sounds more like a PR move than a military move to me.

The war was wrong to start with. Then there was "Shock and Awe" with the smallest possible number of ground troops.

The small force doomed us to face an insurgency. We couldn't stabilize the country with 130,000 troops.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
12. Reid: Brief troop increase OK in Iraq -- What part of bring em home don't you get?!!
Part of what has enabled this disastrous war from the beginning has been the willful delusion about who George Bush is and how he operates.

Bush, Harry Reid will go along with my plan if I tell him it's "temporary"? Fine, Harry, "the plan is temporary." But only someone with a surge of insanity would go along with this Harry!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
13. I ferget-- does "Quell" come after "Surge" or...............?
:eyes:



Hey, vixengrl, well done. Thanks for crafting a sizzling OP. :yourock:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
14. K & R. There is no doubt this has become a proxy war between the KSA and Iran
imho, the big playas in the Sunni/Shia battle of the (latest) era.

Great post with absolutely enormous amounts of information succinctly linked. The sooner DUers recognize what is REALLY going on here, the better. Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kelly Rupert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. SURGE baby it's a totally X-TREEM way to WINNING! YEAH! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mentalsolstice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
17. Chimpy's D-day?
Why do I have such a bad feeling about this?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC