To Any Of Those That Think Slowly Freezing To Death Atop A Mountain While Being Completely Terrified

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

and desperate has not caused enough suffering, and that only their footing of the bill would complete that circle of suffering, I say this:

You have much different personal definitions on what it means to be a truly decent human being than I do.

To each their own I guess.

[Az]

1. I dunno about those people

but I pay taxes for emergency rescue people so they can rescue people. Even stupid people.

[blitzen]

2. Gotta agree with you....What's more, those who make an "economic" argument...

griping about the cost to the taxpayer, don't know squat about the economy of the Mt. Hood area. It's almost 100% generated by recreation, and mountaineering (including winter mountaineering by serious climbers in training) is a big part of that. Of course a humane society would rescue those folks unconditionally, but it's also, on balance, the right thing in economic terms.

[TheFarseer]

149. That's the best argument I've heard so far

It makes so much sense I'll never see it anywhere else.

[Quantess]

160. Excellent point!

Patrons of Mt. Hood, such as these climbers, support the local economy. Search and rescue is there for the consumers' benefit, and ultimately to the benefit of the region as a whole.

[Redstone]

3. No. Don't tell me that people are bitching about the cost of rescue operations.

Please don't tell me that. At least, tell me they're not bitching about it on DU.

Those OTHER sites, maybe, but not on DU. Right?

Redstone

[Az]

5. Its been a bit of a contentious issue

This is actually the second thread griping about the griping.

[mike_c]

unfortunately, there are a lot of them, even here....

It's pretty pathetic.

For the record: I pay taxes for PRECISELY this sort of thing.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

7. This Is Just One Example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2940544

I've seen several other threads in the past few days strongly putting forth the same sentiment. I'm amazingly in awe of it, to be honest.

[piedmont]

17. It a ridiculous form of Puritanism...

These posters seem to believe that
1) recreation by the "affluent" or white people is wrong
2) mountain climbing is wrong
3) thinking about anything other than ending the Iraq occupation is wrong
4) recreation in wilderness is wrong

and seek to end such activities by denying people services (or charging vast sums for them) for which they already paid with taxes and user fees!

I could post likns to examples of each of 1-4, but if you read the threads (as you have, I'm sure) you'll see them.

[SeattleGirl]

19. Touche' piedmont!

That's how the people who post the nasty stuff seem to me, too.

[silverojo]

24. piedmont, you hit the nail on the head

Especially with #3. I guess some people think that the only tragedy on earth is the Iraq war. While it is terrible, it gets a lot more news coverage than the millions of other terrible incidents that occur every day. Yet even that isn't enough for these people who are disturbingly obsessed with Iraq, to the point where nothing else matters to them.

[TahitiNut]

72. Risk-averse folks often like to pile on when folks who do take risks fail.

We human beans seem to enjoy increasing the suffering of those who don't make the same choices we do. After all, patting one's self on the back is a low-risk activity.

I sure don't look forward to a more risk-averse society. Once upon a time, we had 'heroes.' :cry:

[piedmont]

74. I wasn't reading DU when the shuttle fell apart/ blew up. Was this soul-less gloating going on then?

You're right. Some of this is driven by people needing to justify why they personally never did anything risky and exhilirating. Sour grapes with Karma involved, I guess.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

80. I Think That Was A Very, Very Good Point. n/t

[cboy4]

119. Yes, in fact I do remember people some people writing that

oh they knew the risks and their families will be well taken care of with insurance.

It was very tasteless.

But DU has become even less compassionate.

It's quite noticeable.

[Mad_Dem_X]

174. That's a damn shame

that people would even think like that, especially if they are so-called "progressives." Tasteless, indeed.

[Zookeeper]

129. A hero is someone who puts themselves in danger to....

save others. That fits the rescuers on Mt.Hood, but I don't see how that applies to the climbers.

I haven't read any posts advocating denial of SAR to people who do stupid things. I think there is a lot of self-congratulations going on with the "compassionate" people who are reading that into posts with which they disagree.

Since, most of our tax dollars are wasted on Pentagon spending and subsidizing big business, we're left squabbling over the pittance that is left. If taxpayers end up paying for climbers' risky adventures, then it's compassion at the expense of other people who are in need. Public schools, health care, housing for the homeless are all underfunded.

However, some posters are saying that the cost of these mountain rescues is paid for by permit fees and claim that the money pumped into the economy by the hobby also covers the costs. If that's true, there's no problem as far as I'm concerned.

[SeattleGirl]

132. Climbing can add to the economy in many areas.

And, compared to the cost of other things, like, say, the useless, immoral war in Iraq, spending a few dollars (relatively speaking) on trying to save three people on a mountain is just fine with me.

And least I be misunderstood, I have no problem with some of my money going to pay for the safety and wellbeing of our soldiers in Iraq. What I DO have a problem with is they shoddy, immoral, and unethical way the war has been run, and most especially, with the way our military personnel are treated by the government.

[Zookeeper]

187. I understand what you're saying...

but I think climbers should take out insurance so we can spend those few dollars on education, health care, the environment, and mental health services for vets returning from Iraq instead of spending it on rescuing hobbyists.

[Bridget Burke]

150. So--your tax dollars are the major concern!

You've got company at DU. But I doubt you are the majority.

[Zookeeper]

186. Having my tax dollars serve the needs of people....

in trouble just trying to get by in life is my major concern, rather than having it serve the needs of hobbyists.

And, as I said, I'm not advocating abandoning them. But, how about the next bunch of climbers take out insurance before their trip?

[TahitiNut]

178. Amundson, Perry, Heyerdahl ... to name a few.

Is there an "obtuse virus" going around? :eyes:

[Zookeeper]

184. And their benefit to society was....?

They were adventurers, not heroes.

On edit: :eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

193. How bout Coluimbus?

did he beneift anybody? And boy was he a hell of an adventurer

[Zookeeper]

201. Columbus was an adventurer in search of wealth...

for the Spanish crown, if I'm remembering my history correctly. And I'm sure the native people who were her didn't consider him a hero.

[proud2BlibKansan]

143. So climbers should not be responsible?

Is that what you are saying? Want to risk your life? Go right ahead. Don't think about the loss your death would be to your family and loved ones. Is that what you mean?

[proud2BlibKansan]

142. Actually I have noticed more people complaining about the complaining

than the original complaining. :shrug:

[xultar]

161. are you then complaing about the complaining on the original complaining or

are you complaing about the original complaining
or are you complaining about the complaining in general?

:rofl:

[proud2BlibKansan]

191. All of the above

:rofl:

[xultar]

159. aRE YOU SERIES!!!!!!!!1111 of course.

[mike_c]

4. but-- but-- I've got mine, so why should I pay to rescue someone...

...who is in mortal danger?

:sarcasm:

[EllenZ]

6. So, when someone does something

completely stupid, they should not have to pay the bill for saving them from their own stupidity?

These climbers get a kick out of doing dangerous things. Seems that they found out the hard way just how dangerous their climb was.

My sympathy is for all those rescue workers, including the National Guard troops just back from Iraq, having to risk their lives to try and save these jerks.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

9. Like I Said:

You have a far different definition of what it means to be a decent human being than I do.

To each their own.

[Guaranteed]

59. Those rescuers- firefighters, pilots, paramedics, etc.- need to be paid.

It's not "Puritanism" in the form of "you need to take responsibility for your actions." The services need to actually be there- they have COSTS. WHO will FOOT those costs? That is the question.

[Trajan]

96. I think Az summed it up perfectly

WE pay the taxes for emergency services for this very reason ....

WE pay for this ....

We do so because we are reasonable human beings who recognize the need ...

[Guaranteed]

140. But we don't, when they're provided by private enterprises.

Most of those helicopters, ambulances, etc., are not owned by a government entity.

[kiki]

141. I think your statement is somewhat passive-aggressive...

Translation: "I'm a decent person, and you're contemtible unfeeling scum. But hey, to each their own."

[BoneDaddy]

145. If the shoe fits

wear it. If people sit around and debate the "costs" of saving lives, well then they are not liberals in my book.

[kiki]

155. Fair enough...

Although I might say, "Anyone who starts throwing around accusations about the 'liberal credentials' of otherwise good people simply because of their position on an incredibly specific, once-in-a-decade issue isn't a liberal in my book."

Whose 'book' are we reading anyway?

[BoneDaddy]

157. Well

that may be true. But why does this story evoke so much antipathy and blame for dead men and their grieving families if at heart of liberalism is a sense of compassion? I don't know, I just can't fathom the amount of vitriol, supposed liberals, give this story.

[kiki]

168. Liberals have a lot to be angry about at the moment...

There are countless millions living under the spectre of war and poverty every day, and unlike right-wingers, liberals actually give a shit about those people. So perhaps you could chalk it up to "compassion fatigue" that some DUers can't get too excited over a media blitz about some guys who, if we're honest, got themselves into that situation for no good reason.

There have been comments about how this is just a case of the less action-oriented among us venting their jealousy at the sexy adrenaline junkies, and to be honest, these remarks strike a chord with me and I think they have some validity. But on the other hand, given the veritable apocalypse that is currently being carried out on certain unfortunate sectors of the human race - millions of people, not a small group, who did not choose to enter a hostile environment, but had one viciously thrust upon them - I don't think it's surprising that these climbers aren't at the top of every progressive's list of priorities.

[BoneDaddy]

175. True

but that is a function of the media in this country and is not these men's faults. I just am amazed at the lack of compassion with regards to this very horrible situation.

I was an adrenaline junkie. Did 10,000 foot free fall skydiving, bungee jumping, rock climbing etc.

Life is a risk.

[kiki]

176. What's a 'function of the media'?

The fact that liberals (and pretty much all non-insane people) are pissed off is a function of their government, not the media. But the media adds to our rage when it makes a big noise about these climbers - or the latest disappeared blonde, etc - and ignores the countless, 'less newsworthy' deaths happening in our name every day...

[BoneDaddy]

177. I would say it is both

especially since the big media conglomerates are the ones putting the money into the pockets of those in government.

But most agreed upon regarding the media craze of what they find titillating or distracting.

[brook]

158. They don't in my book, either.n/t

[mike_c]

11. in the first place, you're exhibiting your ignorance about what they did....

What makes you think it was "completely stupid?" The mountain was open to climbing when they ascended-- winter climbing conditions are usually better than summer conditions if you're prepared for them. These were all experienced, knowledgable climbers. They got caught in an unexpectedly bad storm, one of the worst in decades. It's for people like this that mountain rescue exists.

[LittleClarkie]

15. Eh they're just a bunch of rich people doing some stupid expensive hobby

:sarcasm:

Apparently mountain climbers are evil capitalists.

[EllenZ]

23. Some of reasons I call the climbers stupid

1)No ground person/team. Major rule of climbers I know is that someone knows their climb plan and stays in touch with them. So if the worst happens, someone alerts the rescue people and has an idea where they are.

2)Left a message at the Ranger Station. Did not talk to any of the Rangers in person beforehand, just left a message in a place that it went a whole week before being found.

3)One cell phone with no spare battery. Sat phones are cheap, so are spare batteries.

4)If they are cold, they were not dressed properly. I have been to Antarctica when it was 135 below and 100+ mph wind gusts and had no trouble, but I was prepared for the conditions I found.

[Redstone]

29. Why are you harping on this subject so much? Most newcomers to DU tend to talk

about political stuff, and here you are, beating one subject to death that has nothing to do with politics.

I can't figure out your agenda. Care to share with us why this subect is so important to you?

Redstone

[EllenZ]

61. Sure

I am involved in SAR myself and have little use for people who rush off into adventures they are not prepared for or equipped to handle. Those who are lost or in an accident may not get the help they need as so much of the limited resources SAR has available to use has been wasted on clowns like these climbers.

And I joined here in 2001 (same name as now). Not posting for a few years caused my membership to disappear. And you would not like a lot of my politics.

[uppityperson]

84. If we wouldn't like your politics, why are you here?

serious question.

[EllenZ]

194. serious answer

I am middle of the road, DU is too left for me on some issues. I support Wes Clark, none of the other Dems currently talked about for president so far are anyone I'd support. I had no use for Junior in 2004, but did not see Kerry as much better. So I went with Nader, who at least has a long history on the environment, unlike most of the others (Dem and Repub)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

195. Nader?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Yeah. Nader's better than Kerry.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Oh, that was a good one. Thanks.

[EllenZ]

197. Yes, Nader

I still have one of his bumper stickers on my Corvair Spyder convertible.

[piedmont]

198. Well, she did warn you...

I never knew Nader was "middle of the road," though!!!

[uppityperson]

199. Thank you for the serious answer.

I disagree with your Kerry not being much better than Mr.bush, and Mr.Nader has done a lot of good but lost me respect by his actions the last few yrs, but will discuss this all elsewhere. Thank you for the reply.

[cboy4]

101. You might wanna get out of the SAR business if all you do is bitch

and moan about the actions of the people you're searching for.

Are you also this hostile toward the spouses of dementia patients who allow them to "walk away" from the house and disappear into the wilderness?

How about that "idiot" from San Francisco who tried to save his family?

I mean, honestly, you are the first SAR person I have ever heard with such a negative attitude.

You're really an embarrassment to the passionate SAR people who hold nothing but sympathy for the people they're involved with.

[EllenZ]

196. What I pointed out

was that the climbers stupidity was a drain on the SAR resources. Over $100K spent so far, plus the time of the people donating their time/equipment.

Resources are not infinite, as a CPA I teach my clients proper management of assets. Those who are in accidents or get lost rely upon the SAR teams to be there when needed. The resources drained by this effort to find the climbers may well be needed elsewhere later on.

Ask any serious climber, none of them would consider climbing a mountain without a back-up. I have often been the ground member of a climbing team, keeping in communication with them and aware of their location in case of trouble. I have on 2 occasions in the last year dropped supplies to climbers who ran into trouble and needed them. I was able to do this because they knew what they were doing and followed the rules.

This year alone I put 100+ hours on my Cessna Caravan in support of SAR teams. I offered my plane to some climbers here who wanted to go help, but their assistance was refused by the local authorities.


The fact that I am not happy about the stupidity of the lost climbers does not mean that I am willing to let them freeze up there. What I was pointing out is that people have to show responsibility for their actions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. You sure you're a SAR person?

If you were part of my squad you'd be the one man out

And trust me, seen plenty of stupity in my lifetime... but we still went out and got them and didn't bitch

We saw it as a training exercise, every time we had to pull somebody from cliffs, or go chase them in the desert

[Turn CO Blue]

185. If you are really an expert climber,

as are four members of the family that I married into -- then you know that even the best, detailed plans can fall apart at the mercy of the weather conditions and that a few of the world's acknowledged mountain experts have met their end tragically on a winter climb.

[karlrschneider]

32. They weren't expert cliimbers. They had made some guided ascents

in the past and thought they were invincible. Check their histories. Flatlanders taking on an adventure and not even having reliable locating/communicating hardware.

[Redstone]

13. Good compassion, there. You'll fit right in here at DU.

Redstone

[gatorboy]

16. Under that logic.

Bush would owe us 500 billion+ dollars for the Iraq war. When does he get to pay up?

The vast amounts of money the current administration wastes by the second and THIS is what gets your goat? :crazy:

[silverojo]

31. In AZ, they have a "stupid motorist law"

If you ignore the warnings and drive into a flooded area, you get fined to help pay for the costs of the rescue.

I do believe something like this should be in place for areas where people take insane chances (like trying to climb a mountain in December, without bringing enough equipment to last more than 2 days--according to CNN, anyway).

I feel very sad for these guys and their families, but at the same time, I think there should be laws discouraging people from getting into entirely preventable situations in the first place. Too often, experienced outdoorsmen bite off more than they can chew because they get overconfident. They need to do something, somehow, to stop people from climbing a mountain like this when bad weather is approaching. It would not only save money on the rescue missions, but more importantly, it would also have saved these men's lives (call me a pessimist, but I strongly--and sadly--believe all three have perished).

[elehhhhna]

153. "There should be laws" There are. They're the law of nature.

Mess with a moutain, a river, an ocean, and you take a risk.

Scuba diving? Could get bent or bitten. Swimming? Could drown. Mountain climbing? Could get lost.

This is still a free country and people are free to be stupid, reckless, or just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[johnaries]

37. You're right. They should die for their stupidity.

:sarcasm:
Personally, I thank God every day that I don't think that way. I pity people with such little compassion and understanding.

[Trajan]

100. Stepping off a curb is a dangerous act ....

IF you arent careful, you may get hit by a speeding car ....

So; in YOUR world ... the first thing that matters is thge ability for the injured to pay for their rescue ? .... after all: they should have seen the car coming ... right ? ...

EVERY accident is a mistake ..... Shall we curse everyone who makes a mistake ? ...

Are you perfect ? ...

I am quite sure you are not ....

Completely stupid or not .. we as a society have an obligation to help those in need ....

Any other opinion that does NOT include this basic tenet is hardly worth a liberal defense ...

[Omphaloskepsis]

122. So the guy who was found dead...

Who gets the bill?

Life must be pretty easy driving between keyboards, asshole.

[Turn CO Blue]

183. the climbers are "Jerks"? That's really over the line. n/t

[Cleita]

8. Really mean, isn't it?

This defines the mean spirit that is driving our country today and I hate it.

[Az]

12. I chalk it up to our vengence oriented sense of justice

When people see something that they don't think is right in our society the first instinct seems to be vengence. Hurt them. Make them pay. Its definately a nastier meme riding around in our society that I would be glad to be rid of.

[seabeyond]

14. i am there with you in so many

ways.

[cboy4]

104. And it is nothing short of outrageous that some of these haters

consider themselves progressives.

It's a joke.

[SeattleGirl]

10. Thanks OMC.

I have been appalled at some of the comments I've seen about these men, and about how they should have to pay for getting them off the mountain. Like THAT is the most important thing in this whole situation.

Sometimes comments here are as nasty and hateful as those on the freeper board. It's truly sad.

[LanternWaste]

179. I agree.

When I first signed up at DU, I thought to myself that I was taking a bit of a risk because I've always perceived myself as a bit too moderate in most aspects of the political landscape.

That being said, I certainly don't worry about *that* anymore what with many of the posts I've been reading the past week concerning this topic.

I'm looking more and more like a long-haired, commie, pinko-symp each day relative to some of the postings I've been reading these days...

[AZBlue]

18. I couldn't agree with you more!

The attitudes on this board have been disgusting. It's very sad to see.

[seabeyond]

20. my heart goes out to them all in this experience. question. i havent

heard a thing today,.... i have been out and about. going thru threads but havent gotten information on what happened today with rescuers. can anyone catch me up?

thanks

[SeattleGirl]

27. They brought down the body of the one climber they found.

They are still looking for the other two climbers. They think they may have fallen. They will go back up tomorrow and continue the search.

BTW, the one climber they did find was apparently injured, but I missed some of the report, so am not sure where he was hurt.

[seabeyond]

30. thanks seattle. i assumed the one had to be injured for them to have

left him to get help. i was hoping it would be resolved today. i figured since the two didnt show themselves yesterday with all the helicopters yesterday, they are gone.

thanks

[cali]

21. I have avoided those threads

Too painful to contemplate reading. And discussing it now, while they're still 2 lost, and one is dead, seems particularly callous to me.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

22. A lot of people volunteer to do SAR work.

I used to fly SAR missions for Civil Air Patrol, which is comprised entirely of volunteers. The organization is funded by the Air Force (i.e., taxpayers), which pays for the airplanes and the fuel, but the pilots also pay some training expenses themselves. CAP handles about 85% of all inland SAR work. Sometimes it can be dangerous, since we fly low and slow, sometimes over remote or difficult terrain. If you are involved in SAR work you don't even think about whether the people you are looking for were stupid for getting lost or that they ought to pay for the search; you only care about finding them.

Sometimes our "find" would be a missing airplane that turned out to have crashed, maybe because the pilot screwed up by flying into bad weather. Finding a crashed airplane with dead people inside is a very sobering experience. The last thing you think about at that point is whether the people "deserved" the search or who is going to pay for it. I think it's pretty cold to look at it that way.

[SeattleGirl]

25. Thanks for your perspective, ocelot.

I have a friend who lives in Arizona, but every winter, he comes back to the Seattle area to be part of the SAR team that works Mt. Rainier. And like you, "who's gonna pay for it" is a subject not even remotely on his mind; finding and rescuing stranded or hurt climbers IS.

[cboy4]

105. And thank you so much for your work. What a hard job

and you volunteered.

Outstanding.

[karlrschneider]

26. Whereas slowly bleeding to death on an Iraq street is just ducky.

...

[SeattleGirl]

28. Nobody is saying that.

But some of us are able to pay attention to more than one thing at a time.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

49. You're Being Quite Disingenuous Here, And I'll Tell Ya Why.

Because you know darn well that in the absence of this story, they still wouldn't have honored the troops in the MSM as they should have. By stating what you stated above you are implying that it is because of the one that the other is unspoken. You are trying to connect the two to something we all deplore; the iraq war; but doing so only as a false justification for your coldness and bitterness towards these climbers. That's my take on your post and why I consider it to be disingenuous.

The two are completely unrelated. I agree with you that they should honor our fallen in Iraq far more. But that is its own complaint and its own lack of justice. It has nothing to do with the climbers or some of our heartfelt prayers for the remaining climbers' safety.

[karlrschneider]

58. Okay, tell me how I'm 'bitter' towards these guys. What level of personal

protection does society owe every single person? If your house catches fire, you might -if you live in the right place- get free firefighters to put out the fire. Why not get a free replacement house as well? Where do you want to draw the line? If your car is stolen, should we all pitch in and buy you a new one? Do you buy insurance? If so, why?...shouldn't the government take care of all your needs, not limited to rescue from perilous situations even they're a result of your own actions? You want Utopia? Fine, but you have to explain how it can be accomplished within the constraints of available resources.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

64. Response Below:

"What level of personal protection does society owe every single person?"

Based on my definition of what truly makes one a decent human being, the answer would be whatever it takes, when someone is in danger.

"If your house catches fire, you might -if you live in the right place- get free firefighters to put out the fire. Why not get a free replacement house as well?"

Completely flawed analogy. It is the act of putting out the fire or pulling the people from it that would apply as a relation. The free house part is just thrown in for effect, but I found it to be a poor one, since it is completely non-analogous to the current situation.

"Where do you want to draw the line?"

Once the person is either safe or all other options have been exhausted.

"If your car is stolen, should we all pitch in and buy you a new one?"

Again, How in the world does this relate to the current situation? This is another deeply flawed analogy. I will say; however, that if you wreck your car and accidentally get stuck upside down in a ravine somewhere, I'd expect rescue services to come to your aid as well.

"Do you buy insurance? If so, why?"

Cause I have to. You don't?

"...shouldn't the government take care of all your needs, not limited to rescue from perilous situations even they're a result of your own actions?"

Well that came out of left field. What matters is that when a person is in danger and faces imminent harm, that we as truly decent human beings do whatever necessary to save that person from imminent harm: PERIOD.

"You want Utopia?"

Don't we all? But since I live firmly in logical reality, I obviously understand it is a fantastical concept that will not come to fruition any time within my lifetime or even several millenia and have never claimed otherwise or declared its possibility.

"Fine, but you have to explain how it can be accomplished within the constraints of available resources."

Are you in the habit of asking people leading questions and then answering those questions for them? Seems kinda silly to me, especially since you surmised the wrong response. Like I said above, I've neither hinted nor ever declared that utopia is possible, so please don't put words or concepts in my mouth. If you are to ask me any further questions, I'd ask that you do so respectfully and actually allow me to answer them, rather than answering them yourself in a false manner.

:hi:

[karlrschneider]

76. I'm just trying to find out what you and others think is appropriate.

"What level of personal protection does society owe every single person?"

<Based on my definition of what truly makes one a decent human being, the answer would be whatever it takes, when someone is in danger.>

So you believe that (We?...Society?...Government?) should monitor the activities of every single citizen and intervene at every single point of potential danger? Unprotected sex is a very potential danger, AIDS, unwanted pregnancy to mention a couple. A tall order, but maybe a good thing.


-----------------------------------------

"If your house catches fire, you might -if you live in the right place- get free firefighters to put out the fire. Why not get a free replacement house as well?"

<Completely flawed analogy. It is the act of putting out the fire or pulling the people from it that would apply as a relation. The free house part is just thrown in for effect, but I found it to be a poor one, since it is completely non-analogous to the current situation.>

But you didn't address the 'flawed' analogy, you just complained about it. What is your answer?
I assume you wouldn't be satisfied with 'partly' putting out the fire...why do you stop the 'aid' when the fire's out and the family is homeless?



"Where do you want to draw the line?"

<Once the person is either safe or all other options have been exhausted.>

There are always more options. You just arbitrarily shut them off at some convenient point.
It's easy to help just 'a little bit'. Are you satisfied with the response to the Katrina disaster at this point?


"If your car is stolen, should we all pitch in and buy you a new one?"

<Again, How in the world does this relate to the current situation? This is another deeply flawed analogy. I will say; however, that if you wreck your car and accidentally get stuck upside down in a ravine somewhere, I'd expect rescue services to come to your aid as well.>

Again you put limits on how much assistance you're willing to give. See, you have established your own boundaries of charity, you just get mad when someone else has a different opinion on where to put the goal posts.


"Do you buy insurance? If so, why?"

<Cause I have to. You don't?>

Sure, I do...when I have to and also when I find it economically smart. I assume you as an intelligent person do the same.


"...shouldn't the government take care of all your needs, not limited to rescue from perilous situations even they're a result of your own actions?"

<Well that came out of left field. What matters is that when a person is in danger and faces imminent harm, that we as truly decent human beings do whatever necessary to save that person from imminent harm: PERIOD.>

There are many many kinds of 'imminent harm', not all of which involve life and limb. Do you have a
list delineating which are worthy of intervention and assistance? I don't.


"You want Utopia?"

<Don't we all? But since I live firmly in logical reality, I obviously understand it is a fantastical concept that will not come to fruition any time within my lifetime or even several millenia and have never claimed otherwise or declared its possibility.>

Yet you communicate as if you think it's feasible while admitting it isn't. "logical reality"????


"Fine, but you have to explain how it can be accomplished within the constraints of available resources."

<Are you in the habit of asking people leading questions and then answering those questions for them? Seems kinda silly to me, especially since you surmised the wrong response. Like I said above, I've neither hinted nor ever declared that utopia is possible, so please don't put words or concepts in my mouth. If you are to ask me any further questions, I'd ask that you do so respectfully and actually allow me to answer them, rather than answering them yourself in a false manner.>

I eagerly await the answers that have as yet been somewhat arcane.
ks

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

90. Here Ya Go Eager Beaver

<"What level of personal protection does society owe every single person?"[br />
<Based on my definition of what truly makes one a decent human being, the answer would be whatever it takes, when someone is in danger.>

So you believe that (We?...Society?...Government?) should monitor the activities of every single citizen and intervene at every single point of potential danger? Unprotected sex is a very potential danger, AIDS, unwanted pregnancy to mention a couple. A tall order, but maybe a good thing.]


Now you're just faking ignorance, since you know damn well what I meant. You can try and twist and spin off the logic in whatever way you want, but it still doesn't change what the true heart of this argument is. Once again, you issued a strawman and put words in my mouth. I never stated for a second that we, the government or otherwise should 'monitor' anybody. That's just spinning the argument off into an extreme angle to simply suit your purposes. Furthermore, no one said anything about 'potential' dangers, so I'm not sure why you are. If I was advocating against saving people from 'potential' dangers, than I would've been declaring that we should've stopped these men from ever being allowed to climb a mountain to begin with. But I did not declare or imply such, since doing so would be stupid. The real and only questions here, within this thread, for me are "Do you feel these people deserved to die or should be left for dead if they can't afford the rescue effort? If you came across somebody in immediate need of rescue, would you refuse them help if they said they wouldn't foot the bill? Like I said originally, if you believe those things, then you have a far different definition of what truly makes one a decent human being than I do.
-----------------------------------------

<"If your house catches fire, you might -i you live in the right place- get free firefighters to put out the fire. Why not get a free replacement house as well?"[br />
<Completely flawed analogy. It is the act of putting out the fire or pulling the people from it that would apply as a relation. The free house part is just thrown in for effect, but I found it to be a poor one, since it is completely non-analogous to the current situation.>

But you didn't address the 'flawed' analogy, you just complained about it. What is your answer?
I assume you wouldn't be satisfied with 'partly' putting out the fire...why do you stop the 'aid' when the fire's out and the family is homeless?]


I did address the flawed analogy. I clearly stated that it didn't apply, but what would've applied as an analogy. To focus on the flawed part of your analogy would be feeding into your twisting of reality and giving it credence and legitimacy. Why would I do such a thing? I'm not in the habit of giving legitimacy to flawed perceptions.

-----------------------------------------

<"Where do you want to draw the line?"[br />
<Once the person is either safe or all other options have been exhausted.>

There are always more options. You just arbitrarily shut them off at some convenient point.
It's easy to help just 'a little bit'. Are you satisfied with the response to the Katrina disaster at this point?]


Always more options? Tell me, I implore you, what options there are left when they're dead. You're not some sort of witch doctor the likes of which the world has never seen, that can bring people back from the dead, are you? I would surmise you aren't. As far as Katrina goes, why do you love questions that beg the obvious? Is it some sort of fun for you? Of course the response to Katrina, even now, is completely unsatisfactory. But like I said, that's stating the obvious and was a waste of your time to ask and a waste of my time to answer.

-----------------------------------------

<"If your car is stolen, should we all pitch in and buy you a new one?"[br />
<Again, How in the world does this relate to the current situation? This is another deeply flawed analogy. I will say; however, that if you wreck your car and accidentally get stuck upside down in a ravine somewhere, I'd expect rescue services to come to your aid as well.>

Again you put limits on how much assistance you're willing to give. See, you have established your own boundaries of charity, you just get mad when someone else has a different opinion on where to put the goal posts.]


I consider 'charity' and immediately coming to someone's rescue who is facing imminent death, as two completely different things. You don't? Furthermore, I've put no limits on anything, so you yet again had to resort to the failed argument of putting words in my mouth. I'm quite charitable and always have been. Donated again tonight to the DU fund drive. Did you? I hope you did. If so, thank you.

-----------------------------------------

<"...shouldn't the government take care of all your needs, not limited to rescue from perilous situations even they're a result of your own actions?"[br />
<Well that came out of left field. What matters is that when a person is in danger and faces imminent harm, that we as truly decent human beings do whatever necessary to save that person from imminent harm: PERIOD.>

There are many many kinds of 'imminent harm', not all of which involve life and limb. Do you have a
list delineating which are worthy of intervention and assistance? I don't.]


Don't need a list. It takes nothing more than common sense. I would hope you have some and don't truly need a list, as I consider your request to be nothing more than yet another false ploy of ignorance for sake of twisting argument, because again, you know damn well what I meant. I also notice that you keep asking questions yet fail to acknowledge the actual point raised. Do you, Karl Schneider, agree with the concept that as truly decent human beings we do whatever necessary to save a person from imminent harm?

-----------------------------------------

<"You want Utopia?"[br />
<Don't we all? But since I live firmly in logical reality, I obviously understand it is a fantastical concept that will not come to fruition any time within my lifetime or even several millenia and have never claimed otherwise or declared its possibility.>

Yet you communicate as if you think it's feasible while admitting it isn't. "logical reality"????]


Why do you thrive on putting words or concepts in other people's mouths? Can you not argue the actual issue at hand legitimately, without casting upon your opponent false premises? I do not communicate as if I think it's feasible, so you have again presented a spun argument.

-----------------------------------------

<"Fine, but you have to explain how it can be accomplished within the constraints of available resources."[br />
<Are you in the habit of asking people leading questions and then answering those questions for them? Seems kinda silly to me, especially since you surmised the wrong response. Like I said above, I've neither hinted nor ever declared that utopia is possible, so please don't put words or concepts in my mouth. If you are to ask me any further questions, I'd ask that you do so respectfully and actually allow me to answer them, rather than answering them yourself in a false manner.>

I eagerly await the answers that have as yet been somewhat arcane.]


Eager? Wow dude, this ain't THAT important of a discussion. You're taking it that seriously to the degree of being eager? Literally eager for me to reply? Wow. Me? Not so eager. I couldn't care less if you respond or not, to be frankly honest with ya. But since you were so eager, here ya go. Hope it satisfies your hunger.

(Oh, and P.S., I continued putting the dashed lines in, since you had forgotten just after the first paragraph)

[QuestionAll...]

51. take that one up with Wolf Blitzer and the like...

how you can blame the victims for this 'coverage' is beyond me.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

33. I Find No Need For Your Strawmen In This Thread.

What one possibly has to do with the other, or how you could possibly twist my statements of one to imply bleeding to death on an Iraq street is just ducky, is a bit of an enigma to me.

[karlrschneider]

40. I'm sure it's not your only enigma.

...

[LittleClarkie]

52. Do you do that in every day conversation too?

"Geez, I got into an accident on the way to work."

"Who cares about your petty issues! People are dying in Iraq."

You must be blast at parties.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

55. !

:spray:

[karlrschneider]

62. I don't go to parties.

Republicans do that.

[LittleClarkie]

66. And your cat

Drinkin' a Bud iirc.

[karlrschneider]

82. Hey, he's an Okie cat with no class. What can I say?

:D

[LittleClarkie]

87. I've always wondered what he was doing with his paw

[dweller]

73. shit, now i have to cross that off my list?

thank you mrs. hubbard.
:eyes:
dp

[karlrschneider]

78. "...the dog had a bone of his own"

;-)

[dweller]

108. i have my own bone to pick

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2943905#2944593

get your own.

dp

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

53. Of Course It Isn't, But That's Irrelevant. It Is; However, The One Foremost Apparent Within Our

current discussion. Therefore, it would be appreciated if next time you could address the contextual issue of my post rather than avoiding it completely by way of amateur personal attack.

:hi:

[Redstone]

35. Care to tell us who, exactly, said that in this thread?

Redstone

[William769]

36. Oh master, please tell us more!

:eyes:

[karlrschneider]

50. More what, oh brave empty-profile warrior?

????

[William769]

69. People that need to know me here do. People that don't know me, oh well.

[karlrschneider]

79. Oh, well...

:eyes:

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[imperial jedi]

200. I for one

and I'm sure there are many others here have enough compassion to encompass the innocent in Iraq and the climbers, s&r people as well as many other areas of concern. Compassion need not be limited.

MTFBWY all

[William769]

34. Concise and to the point. Bravo!

[Guaranteed]

60. I actually didn't get the point. I had to read other posts to understand

which side of the issue the OP was on.

Just say it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

65. Wait, For Real?

Damn, I didn't think it could've been any clearer.

[QuestionAll...]

41. thanks for posting this.

hope no vultures with their cash registers come here to try to destroy your wise thoughts.

[babylonsister]

44. Practically speaking, the US Coast Guard used to rescue people

for free. I think they've changed that somewhat; people will get charged for rescues nowadays. They cannot afford not to.
I wonder if any fees were involved in any effort such as this prior to these men getting lost?

[BattyDem]

45. I'm shocked by the results of the poll earlier today

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2940544

I can't believe so may DUers think we should charge people a fee for helping them! As I pointed out in my post in that thread: the cost of rescuing someone was never an issue before BushCo came into power. THIS is what those bastards have done to our country: money is more important than people! Can't pay? Screw you .... you can die! It's not enough that sick people don't get medical attention because they can't afford it; now some folks want to create a system where people may avoid seeking help of any kind because they may be hit with huge bills! Who decides what is "risky and irresponsible" and what is simply an honest mistake or a tragic circumstance?

Have a car accident on a sunny day? You can have some help ... but if the weather was bad when you got behind the wheel, that help is going to cost you.

Get burned while having a barbecue? You can have some help ... but if it's discovered that you added a little too much lighter fluid in your efforts to get the coals really hot, that help is going to cost you.

Robbed, raped and beaten in broad daylight in a good neighborhood while wearing a burka? You can have some help ... but if you were out after dark, or in a bad neighborhood or if it's determined that your clothing may have "invited" the attack, that help is going to cost you.

:eyes:

We ALL do stupid things or make bad decisions from time to time. We're human ... it goes with the territory. Do we really want a country where offering compassion and a helping hand is an option ONLY when the person who needs it is deemed to be worthy of the cost associated with it?

[whoneedstickets]

46. Rescue insurance....

I find little compelling reason why the public should subsidize high risk recreational activities. People who want to do this stuff should have to carry insurance policies to cover the cost OR a tax on mountain climbing gear should be collected and pooled for rescue work.

[Wonk]

54. It's available, and in some places it's mandatory

http://www.americanalpineclub.org/pages/page/100



http://www.i-world.net/oma/news/rescue/oregonian-2002-06.html

Editorial of the Oregonian - 06/09/02

When the costs of mountain rescues grow steep, when you see a helicopter tumble down Mount Hood, it's tempting to snap off the TV news and conclude: Send the bill to the climbers.

Why, after all, should they get the thrill of climbing, and the rest of us get the bill for saving them?

It's nearly always mountaineering accidents that start these arguments. Never mind that climbers are responsible for a tiny share of search and rescue costs -- 3.6 percent of all National Park Service rescue costs in the year 2000. Never mind that much more is spent every year rescuing hikers, boaters, hunters, and even swimmers. Mountain rescues are spectacular, they're usually televised, and most of the people watching at home couldn't imagine themselves lying in a tangle of ropes in a crevasse at 10,000 feet. It's easy to conclude: Bill'em.

It's not that simple. All over the world, governments, rescue organizations and climbing groups have struggled with ways to allocate search and rescue costs. In the Alps, Swiss authorities require mountaineers to buy climbing insurance for rescues. The insurance, however, has led to a false sense of security -- the number and severity of accidents and rescues in the Alps has greatly increased. Making payment for rescue explicit has actually encouraged more risky behavior.

Many American climbers already carry limited rescue insurance. Members of the American Alpine Club, the nation's largest organization, and the Portland-based Mazamas have group policies that provide rescue insurance up to several thousand dollars per climber. That won't pay for the $9.3 million Pave Hawk HH-60 helicopter, but it's often enough to cover the costs of the mostly volunteer groups that do most mountain rescues.

more...

[SeattleGirl]

57. Thanks for the link to the editorial, Wonk.

Good read.

[whoneedstickets]

63. Yeah it was good. Thanks. Figures the Swiss would have it...

implemented already. I'd like to see the 'increased risk taking data' sounds like a pretty squishy factoid. As for the obligation logic, do you need more obligation than saving lives? The author also conflates economic activities and recreational activities. Rescuing fisherman is a good idea because otherwise fewer of them might take the risk to fish making fish more expensive -- so the promise of rescue keeps food costs down and makes fishing a viable economic activity with lots of spillover benefit. I imagine there is a climbing economy but how big is it compared to the skiing economy? I doubt we can use that logic for hikers. Also the % costs of rescue expense for climbers factoid is only relevant on a per-capita basis. Does that 3.8% of rescue cost represent 3 climbers versus the less expensive 1000s of hikers?

The upshot of the article is that the current system relies on volunteers. Bless them for keeping my costs low!

It was neat to hear about the Swiss. I doubt they've got it wrong.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

67. Interesting. Didn't Know That.

See? You can learn something new every day on DU.

[xultar]

164. How do you know they don't have that insurance? Why discuss costs

now. They may be dying.

[piedmont]

56. k, r, agree nt

[alittlelark]

68. It's like Olympic swimming, tennis, and water polo.....

If you have the $$$$ you might do it. Cheap sports have been over inundated w/ the 'common (brownish)' man. These "EXTREME 'ly expensive 'sports' have yet to have the brown ceiling broken........



THEY ARE STILL OURS!!!!!!1



Lets save them from their own stupidity!!!!

[piedmont]

70. Oh joy, the race card. I haven't been called a racist on this thread yet. And classism too.

By the way, you don't have to be rich to do any of the sports you mention.

[alittlelark]

75. How many Olymic sized pools and tennis courts are in the inner cities?

.....oh, the ones that don't require membership in 'the club'???????

I know here in Silicon Valley the # is YMCA and it costs big $$$ to get into the YMCA here. The $$$ is over my personal comfort level - and I am LIVING HERE.

[piedmont]

83. I don't live on the mean streets of Silicon Valley, but...

There's FREE access to Olympic-size swimming pools and tennis courts in my city. And plenty of poor people.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Danger Mouse]

88. Wow...

...I get it now! Racism is OKAY when it comes from someone that isn't white. Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[UncleSepp]

120. Look! On the mountain! It's a bird... It's a plane...

It's an Ethiopian!


(In fact, it's the Ethiopian ski team. IM ON UR MOUNTAIN, STEELIN UR SPORT...)

Snakes on a plane! Latino on a snowboard!


(I wouldn't tell him that. I wouldn't kick him out of bed for eating crackers, either - in fact, I'd encourage it.)

ZOMG they're everywhere! Brown people on a mountain! Better watch out, African skiers and Latino snowboarders. Skiing is being outsourced to India, too!
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1109079805052958948rIQniC

And now... for the heart of the conspiracy... the secretive National Brotherhood of Skiiers! Skiing Brothers! Muffy! Buffy! It's all over now!
http://www.nbs.org/

Seriously, wtf? May the ghost of Jackie Robinson spit in your Wheaties for using the successful integration of pro sports to prop up some kind of racialist claptrap.

[AtomicKitten]

71. Actually James Kim's fate still haunts me

but his circumstance was different. Really tragic.

[xultar]

163. I'm still haunted by his fate as well. I can't even hang out on the gadget blogs

like I used to.

[AtomicKitten]

166. I live in SF

and when it's cold I always check the temperature and imagine his ultimate fate. I know that's creepy but I just can't wrap my brain around it. At least his wife and kids made it. There's that.

[helderheid]

81. Thank you. Sometimes I just shake my head.

[Rabrrrrrr]

86. The government should not be expected to pick up for the stupidity of others.

The government is there for reasonable and expected things, not tol foot the tab for every asswipe who decides to abandon reason for his/her own ego feeding need.

People going out of the ordinary also have an ethical and moral responsibility to make sure that they are trained, that people know what they're doing, that they are prepared for it, and that they have taken out the requisite insurance.

If a person can't even be bothered to take the sensible, moral, and ethical precautions necessary, than the rest of the people have no ethical or moral responsibility to save them from the pains and sufferings of their stupidity, their hubris, and their casual disregard for the society in which they live.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

91. From Your Statement:

"If a person can't even be bothered to take the sensible, moral, and ethical precautions necessary, than the rest of the people have no ethical or moral responsibility to save them from the pains and sufferings of their stupidity, their hubris, and their casual disregard for the society in which they live."

I repeat: You have a far different definition of what it takes to be a truly decent human being than I do. To each their own.

[Rabrrrrrr]

95. I never said it had anything to do with being a decent human being.

Not sure where you got that impression.

Being a decent human being would require that we try, to the best of our ability and to the complete disregard of cost, to save any person; perhaps even to sacrifice our own life, or the lives of multiple people, to save one person.

But when it comes to what we - as decent human beings as citizens of this country - have any moral or ethical ability to demand what rescue workers do, I don't think we can, in good conscience, ask them to sacrifice their lives or well-being for repairing the ignorant mistakes of others.

If YOU are willing to sacrifice your life for another's stupidity, that's one thing.

But for YOU to demand that another person, or persons, sacrifice their lives for someone else - that's just evil; and if YOU are the person who has disregarded all sensible precautions AND you are the one demanding that others sacrifice themselves to rescue YOU, then you have gone beyond being merely evil.

I submit that it is you who have a very narrow and ill-defined definition of a decent human being.

Judging a "decent human being" requires that we look at the ENTIRE picture, not just the feel-good immediately gratifying emotional knee-jerk response.

[SeattleGirl]

97. Rabrrrrr, many of the people doing SAR are volunteers AND

climbers themselves. They understand the lure of the mountains, because they feel it too. Not saying that they don't have things to say about people who may set out on a mountain ill-prepared (and I don't think that applies to the three on Mt. Hood), their main thing is rescuing people. And no one is making them go on SAR, with the exception of the National Guard, who have to follow orders. But again, many people who participate in SAR are volunteers.

[Az]

99. I used to do some small scale mt climbing

And the mountain rescue crew is very much a community on its own. These people train for it. It is a passion with them. And the fact of the matter is that they are needed from time to time. You don't go jogging uphill with a 100lb pack on your back because its your job. You do that because you have a passion for what you are doing.

[SeattleGirl]

102. Exactly, Az.

My friend who comes back to Seattle from Arizona does so specifically to volunteer with SAR on Mt. Rainier. He is very passionate about climbing, and I don't think much of anything could keep him from it, or from SAR.

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. thanks for the memories

but you are correct Sir...

Hell I still have my basic gear....

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

98. The Only Problem With Your Premise Is:

That was not what we were talking about. This thread is talking about those who demand the rescue be paid for by them. Where this extremist angle twisted as can be argument came from, about forcing people to risk their lives blah blah blah, is beyond me. It has nothing to do with the context of this thread. These people volunteer, ya know. No one is forcing them to do anything.

[Trajan]

103. The ends justify the means ....

One cannot preach a decent respect for common humanity without performing the acts of that humane respect ....

I dont care how stupid and selfish they were: they NEED help, and if we are able to help .. we should ....

End of story ....

[Hippo_Tron]

136. Okay so by your logic...

If someone has a heart attack and can't afford to pay, the EMT's should just leave them on the ground to die if it is discovered that they have been eating fatty foods or smoking.

[rman]

167. otoh, people should take care of one another

Which is one of the main reasons why the people created government in the first place.

On an individual level the shared cost of rescue operations (assuming it isn't covered by insurance, which in many cases it is) is negligible.

[Danger Mouse]

89. Obviously, they were...

...evil plutocrat bastards, captains of industry who bleed pure crude oil if injured. They weren't enjoying recreation, they were just plotting more ways to SCREW THE POOR out of more sweet, sweet money.
Bah. And people wonder why some are hostile to liberals...'must...hate...rich...white...men' it's like a chemical reaction in the brain of some DUer's.
It's almost funny, but it's more pathetic than anything else.

[Bluerthanblue]

92. well said- I agree with you OMC- we are becoming a heartless

society, full of bitterness and cruel self-interest.
And it seems to only get worse.


blu

the more you know the less you need

[On the Road]

93. Operation, This is the Flip Side of the Anti-Welfare Crowd

It comes from an inability to identify with the victims combined with a desire to make people pay for something you see them as responsible for. If mountain climbers are thought of as rich, spoiled, and unsympathetic, there's going a mentality of "make them pay."

I don't know that many mountain climbers except my cousin Eric, who is an ER technician and neither rich nor irresponsible. And remember Al Gore is a climber also.

The effect on budgets is insignificant. This is an exercise in blame and assigning penalties.

[enigmatic]

106. Transposing their anger and rage

for one set of circumstances onto a convenient target/whipping post. I agree.

[SeattleGirl]

107. Sometimes it seems that there are people in the world who don't

know how NOT to be angry. The particular issue doesn't matter, as long as it's something they can be angry about.

[On the Road]

110. And the Amount of That on DU Lately is Really Bothering Me

You just can't seem to make a comment of any kind without getting jumped on.

This is a tad off-topic, but it illustrates the same behavior: Last night was a long, thoughtful, readable post on how the Democrats could win 270 electoral votes with different combinations of states depending on the particular appeal or background of the candidate. With a little fine tuning, I thought it could be a publishable article. Until I replied, there was not ONE positive or productive comment. I mean, this is supposed to be a political discussion board for Democrats -- how much more to the point can you get?

There are a lot of message board which are simply pits of negativity. And not surprisingly, there are very few posters willing to compose something worth reading. I hope DU is not turning into one of those. If is does, I am not going to last long because I've just about had it.

[SeattleGirl]

112. I agree; it seems DU has become much more negative of late.

I don't know if it's caused by The Invasion of the Freepers, or what, but it's disturbing. I certainly don't mind debate, even some heated debate, but when a "discussion" deteriorates into insults, name calling, and threats, well, I just can't go along with that.

The really weird thing is, it seems that those who DO try to be reasonable are the ones that are attacked the most.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

113. "it seems that those who DO try to be reasonable are the ones that are attacked the most."

Shit, Tell me about it! :rofl:

[SeattleGirl]

115. I know JUST what you mean!

:rofl:

[piedmont]

116. I must not be reasonable, then.

I haven't been attacked-- yet.
:hide:

[SeattleGirl]

117. If it'll make you feel better, I'll attack you.

:rofl:

[piedmont]

125. I'm sure we'll disagree on something in the future...

and when that day comes, look out!

:toast:

[SeattleGirl]

127. Okay, I will!

Disagreements don't bother me though. It's the driveby insults and personal attacks that I hate. I don't see you doing that.

Salute! :toast:

[cboy4]

118. That's because you're one of the few people tonight who are making

any sense regarding this topic. :hi:

[piedmont]

128. Thanks! nt

[Trajan]

94. The lack of basic humanity is appalling ...

But not unexpected, even here ....

The same human fault that leads some men to climb dangerous mountains in impossible conditions also makes some men say stupid things about those men who climb those mountains ...

NO ONE is exempt from stupidity now and again .... Even DUers ...

Self included ...

[cboy4]

114. It is absolutely appalling. I cannot even believe large numbers of

people here actually consider themselves progressives.

It's hilarious, in a not so funny way.

[enigmatic]

109. Humanity

Either you have it, or you don't. Either you believe that you try to help those in distress, or you don't. It doesn't matter what race, gender, religion (or lack of), or political ideology the person in distress is; you try your best to save them.

It's a basic philosophy of liberalism. It's also a basic philosophy of humanity; one that we could to stand see more of, especially here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. As a former member of EMS

I fully agree with you, even when it was me who got to pull the idiots off the unstable cliffs in my case...

or track the idiots in the high desert.

We still did it... because it was our duty... it is amzing to me that people forget... every time you call 9.11 you are incurring more costs than you are personally covering through taxes and yes, you are asking people to risk their asses for you.

[girl gone mad]

121. Many people...

(most people?) are billed for emergency medical services. That is definitely the case if you are out of town when you need an ambulance.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. And if you think that a PUBLIC ambulance

will charge you fully what it cost to deploy I have a bridge to sell you.

Now if you call a PRIVATE company that is another story, and your insurance company may or may not cover the ambulance deployment.

But when you call 9.11 for a car accident, do you truly believe they are charging you fully for the cost of the fire engine, the ambulance, and if its really bad, rescue and chopper?

And I have not even added to this cost highway patrol or other ancillary police services.

So no, to answer your question, no you are not fully charged. What they charge you is truly symbolic, having calculated the cost of taking care of patients in the field in the past I know it is truly symbolic.

And as a personal note, when I did work EMS, I did it as a member of the Red Cross in Mexico, and we never charged a dime for emergency response and a critical patient, from the field to the trauma unit ran us 5000 cold smackers on average and this is before any Trauma room or OR involved, a critical patient ran anywhere from 50K to 100K before therapy.

We didn't charge, we lived on charity, and we still did it, and you know why? There is no price on a human life.

[SeattleGirl]

124. Amen.

There IS no price on a human life. Would that more people would see that.

[talk hard]

131. nasty way to go

but dumb to be there in the first place

[SeattleGirl]

133. Not dumb. Some folks have a passion for climbing.

Each to their own.

[talk hard]

192. it's way 2 dangerous for my tastes

[BreweryYardRat]

134. Ugh, I can't believe people are stupid enough to spout that crap.

The climbers may have been stupid/cocky enough to try and weed themselves out of the gene pool, but claiming they (or their families) should foot the SAR bill?

:wtf:

[SeattleGirl]

135. You know, the attitude of some folks around here seems to be:

If ANYTHING happens to you, regardless of what you are doing, or why you are doing it, it's all your fault, and you deserve to die. Shit. WTF is going on, anyway?

[AlienGirl]

138. The Culture of Cruelty is unfortunately bipartisan

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/AlienGirl/2

[SeattleGirl]

139. Hey, Girl. I remember your post.

And, sad to say, you are correct: cruelty is bipartisan. :cry:

[BreweryYardRat]

154. Invasion of the agent provocateurs, maybe?

Mods, it's as good an explanation as any, and I'm not naming names.

[sweetheart]

137. I'm not terrified by death

I don't accept that death is terrifying; rather it is the greatest mystery that
anticpates us all. And when we die, each and every one of us, the body will
be breaking down, probably uncomfortably given our puritainic culture's view on
pain medication. Then given that each and every one of us is pretty much guaranteed
a painful death, so what.. life is more painful, slavery and dehuminzation are
more painful as they do not go away until death, but death is a liberator,
suffering no longer in this earthly tomb.

I often figured one of the best ways to die would be to go off in to the snow
on some remote wilderspace, and then freeze, as for all the pain, freezing alone
with god on the magic earth is a far more profound death than getting smashed up
on a freeway or by an IED, getting chemical burn injectined in florida, or gosh
knows what else.

I reject your premise. Someone has died, and it was a warriors death.

[Berry Cool]

144. All I can say is this, at the risk of inviting more popcorn into a thread

Those who are chiding these climbers for doing something so stupid and would have them rescued only at their own personal expense better not be the same people who, on other threads, vociferously defend their own personal right to smoke because "We all gotta die of something sometime" and "I'm not gonna let any nanny tell ME what to do," and don't give a damn how anyone else's health care costs are affected by the cost of taking care of those affected by smoking-related diseases.

[treestar]

146. Freeper thread on this is amazingly similar

Whatever the issue is, it cuts across the left/right spectrum.

But it interests me how immediately it turns into a referendum on who is a better person.

Or create imaginary straw men, sorry but that's what your post is, since no one said that.

Why it is impossible to discuss this without a signficant number of people having to convert it to "I'm caring and you're callous?" It's just not true; on some other issue there could be a reversal, it's not about people's personal characteristics. As you can see from the freeper thread.

What is it about this type of news story that makes certain people have to start talking about themselves and their own virtue? Whoever is raising the issue is not callous, they are talking about a social cost and responsibility. It's not about compassion and whether you're more compassionate than other people.

And why shouldn't people be liable for costs for their own negligence? Do you disbelieve in the entire tort system? If I cause an auto accident, then should the state pay for it all, my injuries and my victim's? Because that's just as reasonable as your assertions. If I cause myself an injury due to my negligence, the state (all of society) should still pay for it, right?

I mean where is this plea for "I'm more virtuous than you" coming from - due to the plight of total strangers to yourself. All this claim to personally pray for and care about the total strangers the media chooses to report on (at this very moment many are suffering other things and just not getting the attention) is suspect. No one can really care that much about every stranger the media reports on or they'd go NUTS. Positively NUTS.

Yes, I think these people are more pathetic than courageous, and feel sorry for their wives and children. That does not mean I don't question society's responsibility to individuals due to their bad choices having some ending somewhere.

Even you must draw the line somewhere. Society is not responsible to convicted criminals, for making their lives better? Or do you think that growing up poor and being abused did not cause enough suffering? Because that comparison though ridiculous, is fair in your case.

[gulfcoastliberal]

147. Wow. So you're so ignorant of mountain climbing, you don't understand that evacuation insurance is

quite cheap and easily available. And it covers up to at least a couple of million dollars in evacuation and medical aid. Nice use of emotional imagery to deflect away the irresponsibility of these hikers if they skipped paying a coupe of hundred bucks on evac insurance. But I guess ignorance and righteous indignation is bliss.

[xultar]

162. How do you know they don't have that insurance? Why discuss costs

now when lives are on the line.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

148. If you'll pardon the bad taste, Hell must be freezing over

Because I completely agree with you.

[lukasahero]

173. Hee.

I almost posted the exact same thing. Seriously. :hi:

[donheld]

151. People, even on DU, sometimes are cold and heartless

Not all liberals hearts bleed.

[Bridget Burke]

152. Well, we still have some decent humans left at DU

The ones who feel that you are talking down to them are right. They ARE beneath you. (And me.)

[malta blue]

156. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I have friends who are avid climbers and have been in stranded on mountains during snow storms that have come in unexpectedly. Thankfully, they managed to get down, but I can't imagine being required to pay for your own search and rescue.

Now the "Runaway Bride"....surely she should have to pay for it....

[xultar]

165. Thank you for your post. I agree.

[Strawman]

169. Not to mention Haliburton has wasted more taxpayer money in the time it just took me to fart

What a load of crap this all is. Just try as hard as humanly possible without putting the rescuers in undue danger to save these people. Just attempt to save fellow human beings in danger and STFU already. I don't think it's mountainclimbers that are bankrupting the government. I can think of alot of other people I'd prefer to invoice for wasting my goddamn tax dollars than the family of some poor s.o.b. who literally froze to death for christ's sake. Emergency rescue services are public goods, not private ones and in a free country, people can climb mountains.

[omega minimo]

170. Well people like to be indignant about the things they can get their minds around

:yoiks:



Way to break it down, Strawman. :hi:

[byronius]

171. Having read this whole thing -- something I remember from debate --

In an argument about motorcycle helmet laws -- apparently John Adams once suggested that each individual in a society should be viewed as a valuable commodity, that we are only as strong as a nation as are each of the links that make it up. He recommended that the nation provide free education, through college, for every individual. It would seem that this could also be applied toward rescue costs, and I think draws a sharp line between those who think we stand stronger when we stand together and help lift and protect each other regardless of cost, and those who view this nation as a shark tank, in which their personal monetary investment in others is an absurdity, a darkness -- 'why should I have to help the competition?'

It speaks to the most basic views of what a society is -- what are we doing here, and why should we help others? Adams clearly thought that the worth of each individual far exceeded the value of the imaginary markers that we use to facilitate trade. He saw it as a basic logic of groups. He was guided by his religious beliefs, but I think his feelings on this matter went far beyond the religious logic of his day. He saw it as common sense.

Interesting read, this thread.

[omega minimo]

172. You're also talkin bout the U.S. before Reaganism and after (Year 26 and counting)

www.thomhartmann.com

[sinkingfeeling]

180. Hear, hear!

[WinkyDink]

181. It's a good thing the Missing Climbers weren't Missing Blonde Women.

Where would the "compassion" be then?!

[skygazer]

182. I'm always amazed at people who quibble about the cost of saving lives

Or the cost of caring for the indigent or providing shelter for the homeless. We have one guy at work who makes rude comments whenever a food stamp customer comes through his line, comments about how he resents his tax dollars going to support people who can't be bothered to work.

Blows my mind. There is so much fucking waste in government spending and we're spending so much money every single day to carry on this idiotic war in Iraq yet people complain about the cost of doing something good - helping others, saving lives, making a difference. The amount of money spent towards welfare, or towards rescuing climbers, is infinitesimal compared to what we spend on that frigging war. Besides, much of the money for rescue operations comes from private donations.

I'd far, far rather have my money go to save a fellow human being (or an animal, for that matter) than to contribute to their death. Yes, even if they were in danger through their own stupidity (which I don't believe is the case here).

[Zookeeper]

188. Unfortunately...

If the costs of SAR is paid for by taxes, it's not a choice between spending tax money in Iraq, or subsidizing big biz, vs. spending it on rescuing climbers. It's a choice between spending tax money on housing the homeless, or feeding the hungry, vs. spending it on rescuing climbers.

We are working with finite resources thanks to the Rethugs.

[bpeale]

189. and I just don't understand...

why you feel it is necessary to come on here with this comment to start WWIII just because there are people who do not agree with you. You're just as bad as those you criticize.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

190. Not By A Long Shot.

Nice try though.

(And if you think this was WWIII, you are definitely not experienced in the reality of GD.)