We may be as susceptible as freepers to the tactics of a demagogue.

[pnwmom]

A lesson to ponder from the Duke lacrosse case.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20061230/news_lz1ed30middle.html

"Given last week's revelation that Durham, N.C., District Attorney Mike Nifong had kept exculpatory DNA evidence from defense attorneys for the three Duke lacrosse players accused of a March sexual attack on a local stripper-college student, it may be just a matter of time before David Evans, Reade Seligmann and Collin Finerty are cleared of all charges. Now that the North Carolina bar has filed ethics charges against Nifong, the spotlight finally can shift to the most troubling behavior in this matter: the DA's repellent assault on the civil rights of the Duke trio.

"Among a stunning list of ethical transgressions, Nifong can be accused not just of withholding exculpatory evidence but of manufacturing damning evidence.

SNIP

"This isn't just bad judgment. It's a shocking abuse of power. Given his plain motive – Nifong won re-election by depicting himself as the crusader who wouldn't let privileged white kids get away with brutalizing a young black woman – it is also despicable in its raw demagoguery. All this is why we look forward to the Durham DA having his own day in court."

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. You said a mouthful with that title.

The one thing I try to do with everything that is reported here is maintain a healthy dose of skepticism. Idealists and the credulous of any stripe are rich fodder for those who would manipulate facts for their own ends.

That ain't me, babe.

[formercia]

2. Some people will do ANYTHING

to gain a position of Power,where they can inflict their Psyche on those unable to defend themselves.

[jobycom]

3. Duh. nt.

[Redbear]

4. An important reminder.

Truth and justice should never take a back seat to ideology.

[Buzz Clik]

5. Fantastic post!

From day one, pnwmom, you and I battled shoulder-to-shoulder against those who presumed the guilt of the Duke students. You had the incredible intuition to know Nifong was dirty. I cheated because I had inside info.

Nice work.

[pnwmom]

10. Thanks, buzz clik.

But it was really my mother's intuition. She asked me about the case, but she had pretty much already made up her mind. By the time I started paying attention (after she asked me her question), there was plenty of actual hard info out there (police interviews, etc.) for anyone who was willing to read it.

[last1standing]

6. Who exactly is this mythical "We"?

There have always been plenty of people here at DU who have thought the Duke players were innocent and said so, often. There has also been a large group, myself included, who said let the courts decide the case and stop rooting for sides like this was a lacrosse match.

This whole thing had little to do with demagogues and much to do with preconceived notions. It seems to me that even now those notions are coming into play.....

[beam me up scottie]

8. "preconceived notions"

Also called intuition.

And yes, apparently to some, it's still a lacrosse match.

This was an opportunity for people to make intelligent observations like "all strippers give blow jobs".

An enlightening experience.

[pnwmom]

12. It was never a game to me. It has been a frightening look

into the criminal justice system, and the lengths otherwise thoughtful people would go to, to justify it. Nifong was supposed to be one of the "good" prosecutors, according to his reputation. If he's one of the good ones, what are the bad ones like?

[beam me up scottie]

13. I had a frightening look into the minds of my fellow "liberals".

Cases like this only bring out the worst in some DUers.

And if you're a woman, or a gay person, or a transsexual, or a brown person, or a sex-worker, or an immigrant, or anyone else who's considered "fair game" by the good ole boys, it makes this place a living hell.

I agree that the DA should be held accountable for his actions if they were indeed criminal, but I also hold my fellow "liberals" accountable for theirs.

[pnwmom]

14. The students were considered fair game by many here simply because

they were white and went to Duke and came from well off families.

What's the difference? Demagoguery is demagoguery, no matter who the victim is.

[beam me up scottie]

17. Well, while I didn't actively persecute them, I hear privileged white males are the new black.

It was not right to judge them unfairly, but don't expect me to take up the cause anytime soon, since they were not judged unfairly because they were a minority who is considered inferior because of their race or sex.


I'm reminded of my brother opining about how he was a victim of discrimination because of quotas in hiring practices.


He didn't get the job because he was a white male, but that's a far cry from not getting it because he was considered inferior.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

18. I strongly disagree.

One can oppose unjust discrimination as a matter of moral principle, or one can indulge in tribe warfare. If you don't apply the principle in all cases, all you're doing is the latter.

[beam me up scottie]

21. No, you're wrong. It's not discrimination based on racism, sexism or homophobia.

It may seem unfair, and it may be, technically unfair, but it is NOT equal to what minorities face in this country every day.

Or perhaps you wish to argue the point further with someone who has been told more than once that not only was I not qualified to do a job because of my gender, but that there was no way in hell they me because I was a woman and they didn't HIRE women.

Quotas = unfair and hopefully in the future, unnecessary

Not hiring qualified minorities because of bigotry = discrimination.



When my white brother gets told that he is not qualified because of his skin colour, religion, sex or sexual orientation, then he will be suffering the same kind of "discrimination" minorities face.

[pnwmom]

27. Actually, it was discrimination based on racism AND sexism.

Along with wealth and privilege.

The students were picked by Nifong as good targets for his media campaign BECAUSE they were white, male, and privileged -- and he hoped to whip up a frenzy against them among the black voters he needed in his Democratic primary election campaign.

If this same situation had involved three black students from the accuser's college, rather than three white students from Duke -- the prosecutor would never have brought the case. Or even if they had been three black basketball players from Duke -- once the negative DNA results came in, it would have been all over.

But these lacrosse players had the wrong skin color and that's why the charges were brought.

[beam me up scottie]

29. I'm talking about my brother.

And quotas.

And spare me the pity party for the boys.

It was wrong, the guilty parties should be punished, but don't expect me to take up the Cause of the Oppressed Rich White Boy in America.

This was one case, I hope the guilty will be punished and I acknowledge the fact that these boys probably got railroaded.

But I cannot and will not express the same amount of outrage as I did when, oh I don't know, maybe when I found out that Matthew Shepard was BEATEN TO DEATH FOR BEING GAY.


The lacrosse players will get justice, Matthew never will.

And every day, other boys like him live in fear that they'll be next.

I have a hard time believing other boys like the lacrosse players suffer the same anxiety.

You are welcome to start a movement to protect them from future harm, but somehow I don't think you'll get many converts.

[pnwmom]

30. I think if we had any sense we'd be grateful that this case

-- because it is so high profile -- shines a light on a justice system whose chief victims are usually much more powerless and less able to fight back than these students.

We need to be asking how people like Nifong acquire this kind of power, whether prosecutors should be elected at all, and whether prosecutors like Nifong are the exception or the rule.

[beam me up scottie]

32. Prosecutors shouldn't be appointed.

If you had any idea where I lived you'd understand why that is a much more frightening prospect.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

31. The severity of an injustice is nothing to do with the number of other similar injustices.

Being falsely accused of rape and persecuted as a result isn't as bad as being beaten to death, but it's worse than most other things.

These particular white boys have suffered *more* discrimination on account of their race and sex than *almost* anyone black, female, gay etc (and almost everyone else too, of course).

The fact that most other white males haven't is neither here nor there. Either you're concerned about justice, or you're not, and if you're not you have no right to complain about any other form of injustice, either.

[beam me up scottie]

35. These "particular" white boys have my deepest sympathy.

I have said REPEATEDLY that I hope they get justice, what do you want, that I should pour gas over myself and light a match on the prosecutor's desk?

You're barking up the wrong tree if you're trying to recruit people to take up the cause of ANY MORE rich white lacrosse players.

With pitbulls like you people trumpeting their cause, they will be vindicated, you can rest easy.

If you want my help drawing attention to the continued oppression of white lacrosse players, however, you'll have to do a lot better than that.

[pnwmom]

36. And they're still facing decades in prison, based on the

remaining charges.

[beam me up scottie]

37. Fine, get the gas can, I'll pour it on myself in the prosecutor's office, you throw the match.

Or how about I send them this month's salary?

I know how impoverished they are, after all, and how nobody is fighting for their rights.


WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO FOR THEM???

[pnwmom]

38. Huh? I was talking to Donald. Who are you talking to?

But no, Better put away any matches. It sounds like you're in an inflammatory enough mood.

[beam me up scottie]

40. oops, see my post 39, it was meant for you.

I'm posting on six threads now, sorry.

[beam me up scottie]

39. Sorry, my bad.

But I keep being told I should be doing something more than what I'm doing to fight discrimination, and I don't get it.

[pnwmom]

41. I'm sure you're doing plenty, beam me up.

As I said to someone else, we all have to pick and choose our battles.

I happened to have a very shy son in his first year of college when this case blew up -- and so it got my attention. I could see all too easily how a kid could get dragged into this -- a freshman attending a team party -- and it was pretty scary. I warned my kids about a lot of things before I sent them to college, and my son got some unnecessary lectures about respecting women (unnecessary because he has an older sister he loves and he has grown up respecting women).

But I forgot to tell them about evil prosecutors.

[beam me up scottie]

42. Yes, I see why this would concern you.

As it should all of us.

It's just that so many people use issues like this to grind their personal axes and it's hard to take.

That's why I stayed away from those threads. It's another emotional subject and one I couldn't handle dealing with right then.

As you know, I'm the first to champion an underdog when I'm up to it, but at that time I wasn't.

I am now posting on two threads defending muslims in Texas from people who think they're a "threat" to us, fighting against the death penalty with someone who thinks it's more humane to kill prisoners than sentence them for life, and trying to raise awareness about the ice shelf that collapsed last year in Canada.

So many issues, so few of us.

I know what you're trying to do, and I admire anyone who fights for justice.

Peace to you and yours in the new year, pnwmom. :)

[pnwmom]

43. Thank you, beam me up.

Hopefully we'll all have a better year in 2007. I've been breathing a little better since the election . . . now this "surge" talk is scaring me A LOT. Plus, the talk of "testing" the selective service system, to see how it works.

Anyway . . . peace to you -- and happy 2007!

:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

46. Oh, no.

I was wondering about that.

If it's any consolation, I think a draft would be the last straw.

[pnwmom]

47. I know it's a worst case scenario, but ever since Bush

grabbed the Presidency, the worst keeps happening.

And of course, there are lots of DU'ers who support the draft . . . you can imagine how that gets to me.

[beam me up scottie]

48. In theory, if there was no war,

I would consider some sort of service to the country, not necessarily in the military.

Maybe two years.

And with pay, benefits and paid tuition of course.

But not now, no, not now.

It would, I think, wake up the a-political parents if it * suggested it, that's why I think he wouldn't do it.

Well, with things as they are now, of course. If they were to manufacture another "crisis", though, you're right - who knows.

[pnwmom]

19. The only cause I think anyone should take up, as a result of this case,

is for a fair justice system, where self-serving prosecutors are not allowed to run amok.

[beam me up scottie]

24. In regards to this case, we agree.

Although the justice system has far worse problems than that, this case should not be ignored.

[pnwmom]

20. Show me a post where a DU'er said that we shouldn't believe the accuser

because she was a woman, or poor, or black.

And yet I saw many posters opining that they were probably guilty, because they were rich and "entitled." Or saying that it didn't matter what happened to the students, or even if they were guilty or not, because their parents could afford good attorneys.

[beam me up scottie]

25. You may find this hard to believe, but the post claiming strippers gave blow jobs was deleted.

But trust me, it did not go unnoticed.

Dig through my journal if you wish to find the thread, but you'll have to look long and hard.

After that experience I stayed the hell away from GD and DU in general for quite some time.

[rebel with a cause]

22. Could it be the 'royal we"?

Just like the use of the pronoun you, 'we' can often be used ambiguously, but yet cause a lot of misunderstandings. Just ask me! B-)

[pnwmom]

26. I said "we" because I think all of us should be on guard against

the kind of media tactics employed by Nifong.

Personally, I was among the earlier ones on D.U. to figure out what he was doing . . . but that doesn't mean I shouldn't guard myself against similar manipulations in the future.

[rebel with a cause]

28. I agree, but when you say we or you

other people often take it personally. That is why I try now not to use them without saying this is not for everyone, or reference the royal we. It is just a way of trying to get people read what I am saying instead of reacting to one or two words.

Personally, I cannot say I knew what the DA was doing. I did not believe the accuser, but knew that the duke players were rich guys (which equals fancy lawyers) and had heard of things they had supposedly done/said to other members of minorities. I just really didn't care much about the case, had too much other things on my mind. So that makes me really bad, I guess.

[pnwmom]

33. No, if you were neutral, why would that be bad? We all have to pick and

choose our battles.

[rebel with a cause]

34. Thanks, I feel better about it.

[rebel with a cause]

23. self delete, double post

[Psephos]

7. Well said. All people everywhere are susceptible to demagoguery

because it preys upon deep and common human emotions.

The antidotes are reason, discipline, and skepticism. No religion and no political party can claim to have cornered the market on those rare goods.

Peace.

[Ian David]

9. What do you mean "we"?

Are you saying that "we" are all just the mirror image of freeperland, just with a different set of victims?

I don't think so.

[pnwmom]

11. I said "may be" not "are."

But it is something for us all to watch out for. We're not immune. We have our own flaws. We're human.

[nealmhughes]

15. Nah. Just a standard case of old-fashioned tunnel vision and railroading attempt.

When people try to get overly absorbed in a case, they will go to ridiculous lengths to "get at the truth." The truth as they determine it, that is...

Ms. Brawley, anyone, or the McMasters Preschool? We need cynics who take an open mind when conducting an investigation and trial, not bright eyed bushy tailed zealots out to make a name for themselves.

The only details about this case that is public knowledge is what was leaked or provided by the police, the DA and the defense and press, not an unsealed grand jury or public jury. I am willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong.

I blame Nancy Grace, myself, and the commodification of "justice" as entertainment.

[pnwmom]

16. There are hundreds of pages of evidence that are public knowledge

because they have been filed as part of public court documents. A police report is a police report -- it doesn't matter whether it's been filed by the prosecutor or the defense. It's the same document that the jurors will review.

A prosecutor is supposed to only bring cases to trial that can be won, based on the evidence (not by cheating or withholding evidence.) When the accuser's own statements are so contradictory; when her statements don't match with the other dancer, when it takes her three photo-lineups, conducted in violation of N.C. procedure, to pick out her "attackers" (and the photos don't match with her verbal descriptions); when all of the lacrosse players are excluded, with 100% certainty, as being connected with the male DNA found on and in her body; when the accuser can't even decide whether she was raped or not . . . you have a case that shouldn't be brought to trial.

[ecstatic]

44. Now if only this type of concern was applied to wrongfully accused black "kids"

Oh my! The outrage!

[pnwmom]

45. Lots of us have supported other wrongfully accused people in the past.

That was something I had thought distinguished us from the freepers. I must admit that I was surprised at all the pro-prosecution people on these boards.

The problem is that, in most cases like this, the wrongfully accused lack the resources to expose what is happening to them. In this case, the fact that the accused have the resources to fight back against the system may help all of us. It may be only the tip of an iceberg, but if we're paying attention, at least we now know about the iceberg.

[ecstatic]

49. I know DUers are pretty good with fairness. It's the MSM

that has been whining relentlessly about how these boys' lives are being destroyed. And if they are innocent, they do deserve justice. I just wish the media would be as concerned when poor kids lives are being destroyed due to false charges.

[pnwmom]

50. I think in this case the mass media, at least initially,

was strongly on the side of the accuser -- who was black, female, and poor -- so they must have thought they were doing the p.c. thing, I guess. For example, Nancy Grace, Susan Estrich, and others were very vocally on the side of the "victim." Susan Estrich had the grace to change her position as more facts came out. But Grace hasn't, and neither has the NYTimes, which has been pro-Nifong, pro-accuser from the beginning (while masquerading as being even-handed).

If members of the MM appear to you now to be "whining relentlessly" about the students (I don't hear that myself), perhaps it is out of guilt for taking so long to get the story right -- and, with their favorable coverage, for helping Nifong to get elected. They should feel guilty.

It's been clear since last spring that the students were being railroaded. All anyone had to do was read the victim's own statements to the police, and the other primary documents that are of record. Once the DNA results came back with no match, that should have been the end of it. Everything in a case like this comes down to "reasonable doubt" and that doubt has always existed by the truckload.