Israel will rather go out fighting, than go out by a surprise nuke attack by Iran

[Herman Munster]

Frankly, I don't think Israel gives a flying fuck what anyone else in the world thinks of them. Jews have been hated for millenia. You think they care what anyone but the United States thinks of them? After the halocaust, Israel vowed "never again."

What that means is if they have to choose a way to die, they will die fighting and not as helpless victims being horded like cattle into the gas chambers.

Also, there is much misinformation about the nukes being considered. These are tactical nukes with yields small fractions of those used in WW II. The fallout will be of no risk to Israel.

Let me also remind everyone here the anti-semetic comments that Ahmadinejad has said about Israel. He has vowed to "wipe Israel off the map" and declared the halocaust a "myth." The man is a fucking nutjob.

[babylonsister]

1. So what if Israel lobs nukes first? How do you feel about that? nt

[Herman Munster]

6. using small tactical nukes against military targets

is always preferable than a full-yield nuclear strike against civilian populations.

Obviously, it would be nice if something can be worked out diplomatically without any of this occurring. But in a zero-sum game, if Iran develops nukes, the government of Israel would be criminally negligent to its citizens not to do something about it.

This would be like if the U.S. had a neighbor like the president of Canada or Mexico had nukes and threatened to wipe it off the map at every turn.

You think any democrat or republican president would tolerate that BS?

[otherlander]

28. Iran has a fucked up president, BUT

they're still a democracy. They just voted his people out of congress, they can do the same to him. Kind of like another country I could name...

[liberal hypnotist]

163. Thanks for the balance.

Although, we didn't vote for our "nut job", we have a collective responsibility for his lack of diplomacy. We should be leaders in the peace movement rather than the "nuke" movement.

[oberliner]

164. Iran is a democracy?

Are you sure about that?

[LuckyTheDog]

45. This is scary

I have seen this "they're just baby nukes" justification several times already. It's almost as if somebody has already thought through what to say after Israel acts.

[originalpckelly]

60. You see the problem is that these people are irrational.

They wouldn't even be considering using the nukes if they were rational people. They are just fucking nutty, there's no other way to put it.

They are wrong, scientists in the field of nuclear weapons have said they're wrong, because a semi-enclosed below ground detonation will result in vaporized being shot up into the atmosphere. It may literally be worse than a standard nuke, because there will be more fallout.

They (the US and Israel) have been told how nutty and stupid this is, but they continue to go along this path.

[babylonsister]

55. I've read that Iran won't have viable nukes for about 10 years.

So what if Israel/US are determined to go after Iran regardless? Sounds similar to the threat of WMDs in Iraq to me. They were there, but they weren't, haven't been, so why are we in this mess?
And I agree. Diplomacy is absolutely the way to go, but it seems the current US admin for whatever reason isn't even considering that.

[Homer Wells]

121. The diplomatic way for this Administration

cannot/will not work until The Little Guy in the White House stops playing John Wayne with his Frontier brand of Justice.

It is dang nigh impossible for a diplomatic solution when there are no real diplomats in the government that Bush can use.

The Bush administration is a total Catastraphuqe.

[liberal hypnotist]

166. Nuclear George

Right on! George is a most serious problem.

[cool user name]

68. The thing is ...

... there's no evidence that they have a program for developing nuclear weapons. They claim for energy purposes.

Not that I'll trust them (or any government) but I'm not going to lob tactical nukes no matter how "low yield" they are.

The circle of violence must stop. You want men like Ahmendinijad irrelevant? You stop feeding into their psychoses.

[muriel_volestrangler]

177. "Zero-sum game"? Please, lay off the childish war games

Real life isn't some package you get in the post telling you how to re-enact the Battle of the Bulge, or Raid Over Moscow. This isn't Risk, or Diplomacy. In real life, it is possible for countries to co-exist, where everyone wins.

I curse the day some mathematician told the wider world the phrase "zero-sum game", and people who should have stuck to playing D&D suddenly thought they had the Meaning of Life, expressed in a 3 word phrase.

[rman]

182. Yeah right, except that Iran has no nukes

Not to mention that they got the nuclear technology that Iran does have, from the US.

[Name removed]

208. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

209. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

211. Deleted message

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[Robson]

7. Grave concerns

I have grave concerns.

1/ impact on US troops stationed in Iraq,
2/ potential escalation that will eventually involve the entire Middle East
3/ potential of ME oil fields being destroyed thus creating a world wide energy disaster
4/ I've seen too many examples of neocons making decisions that are completely naieve and flawed...Iraq comes to mind
5/ US neocons are known to be affiliated with Likud Party in Israel.
6/ USA has an obligation to defend the USA, not march to war at Israel's beck and call.

These are my concerns rightly or wrongly.

[me b zola]

23. I share your concern(s)

Welcome to DU, Robson :toast:

[WiseButAngrySara]

35. Beautifully stated, but I would change your 'naive' to EVIL..

Neocons are anything but naive! (though many of them pretend to be so, and 'Christian' ones at that... "The devil is a gentleman")

[babylonsister]

57. Robson, welcome to DU, and I also share your concerns.

I have no answer other than cooler heads hopefully prevailing.

[madeline_con]

2. Wait, I'm confused....

What brought all this alarminst stuff on?

Are you supporting a preemptive strike?

[Skip Intro]

3. Huh?

Israel, nor any other nation, has no right to attack another nation out of fear and paranoia. The holocaust doesn't give them the right to do that. They are no more entitled to life and security than any other nation/people on this planet.

"The fallout will be of no risk to Israel." - ?!?! Are there other people that might be affected, maybe closer to and in Iran? Or don't they count?

If it is proven, with inspections or whatever reasonable method might be used, that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, then there may be reason for a united action, thru the UN, to take steps to make sure there is no Iranian nuclear weaponry. If that is not proven, then any attack would be an unjustified, criminal action to which any nation would have a right to respond.

The ironic thing here is, we've got a story about Israel planning to attack Iran with nukes, not the other way around. I am lost on your logic.

[Herman Munster]

11. what part of

Israel should be wiped off the map and the Holocaust is a myth don't you understand.

Read the quotes yourself. That's fear and paranoia?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1145961353170&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[originalpckelly]

61. I'm sorry, but the Jerusalem Post is a right wing biased paper:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Post

[Zhade]

129. And Richard Perle is on the board of directors.

Hard to understand why Sagle would excuse the likes of a neocon liar like Perle.

[originalpckelly]

140. Well, who knows, neo-cons aren't just Republicans...

look at LIEberman.

:eyes:

Damn neo-cons, they're so nuts they're going to blow up the fucking planet.

[Lurking Dem]

187. I thought Perle was on the Hollinger board.

The paper is now owned by CanWest, isn't it?

[Lurking Dem]

226. It was an honest question.

Is Richard Perle on the JP board? Do they have a separate board from the parent?

[liberal hypnotist]

167. Balance is great.

Good point. We have our neo-cons and Israel has their neo-cons. Meanwhile the people pay while the ruling class play.

[originalpckelly]

71. They even cater to the right-wing religious nuts in our country...

they have a Christian edition here:
http://info.jpost.com/C006/ChristianEdition/

And by the way, these religious nuts in America who "care" about Israel, think everyone in Israel is going to burn in hell, and that all but a 100,000+ will be saved in Israel when the Anti-Christ comes, as they will be converted to Christianity.

If they cater to fundies, I wouldn't trust them for a minute.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

36. I frankly don't give a shit about that.

I have been protesting against my own damn government for the past four years because it dared to wage a preemptive war against a country. Even if Saddam had had WMD, even if Saddam had had connections to Osama Bin Laden, even if Saddam had had the inclination and the means to attack the US, I would have STILL opposed preemptive military action against that country unless that attack were IMMINENT. If everyone -- including Israel -- were to act in the manner we have, the world would be one, flippin', clusterfuck nightmare of "I get you before you (maybe) get me."

I'm sorry, but countries cannot act that way in our times -- America is damned for doing it, and Israel should be too.

[WiseButAngrySara]

67. THANK YOU! And I am furious too Hw/no Fury! ...n/t

[TheMadMonk]

53. "Israel should disappear from the pages of history"

(or something similar) is the correct translation of what the Iranian leader said.

Not "Israel should be wiped off the map" an English Language idiom which has no parallel in Farsi.

Further, IIRC the Farsi idiom so blatantly mistranslated, carries strong connotations that the hand of FATE and NOT MAN revise the books.


From where I sit, the recent Lebanon crisis, was something of a diplomatic tour de force. An attempt to get Israel to negotiate in good faith, by providing enough backing to Hizbullah for them to be a serious annoyance to Israel, but not enough to cause serious damage.

Even with what they had, Hizbullah showed considerable restraint in their actions, since if they'd chosen to blow their wad in one hit, they could have done a great deal more damage to Israel than they did.

For sure some fanatical idiots in the ME want to see Israel gone, gone, gone, but I think these people are now the minority and the majority are willing to swallow the idea of a sovereign Jewish state, provided that state also recognises the legitimate interests of their neighbours.

[leftchick]

184. thank you for the clarity

That the Iranian presidents word's are so misinterpreted in the US speaks volumes about the influence of the RW media. Even here.

[cool user name]

83. The part that was never said. n/t

[Selah]

91. Could not have said it better.

[mazzarro]

108. Quit pedalling this total RW/Likud BS -- n/t

[michreject]

18. fear and paranoia!!!!!!!!

How do you interpret this statement?

"wipe Israel off the map"

Iran has made this statement. That's a fact.

[originalpckelly]

32. Yeah, who's about nuke to whom?

:shrug:

[WiseButAngrySara]

70. Read post #53 re:translations (or MIStranslations) ....n/t

[michreject]

191. Even if that's accurate

quote....."Israel should disappear from the pages of history"......./quote

Dem's fighting words. Regardless of the literal translation, Iran's meaning is clear.

[achtung_circus]

125. "That's a fact"

or NOT.

Read a little, start with http://www.google.com/custom?q=wiped+from+the+map&hl=en&lr=&cof=BIMG:juancole.com%3BS:http://www.juancole.com%3BBGC:%23c0f6ff%3BLC:%230000ff%3BVLC:%23800080%3BALC:%23008000%3BGALT:%230000ff%3BGFNT:%23800080%3B&domains=juancole.com&sitesearch=juancole.com&start=0&sa=N">Juan Cole at Informed Comment regarding the mistranslation of those comments.

[michreject]

190. A link to a Blog

to someone who's trying to translate American history into Arabic. This is an unbiased opinion? I think not.

[achtung_circus]

218. Try reading his stuff.

He's a lot less biased than some of the wing nut crap that's included in this and associated threads.

I paraphrase
Nuke the bastards.

It's just a "little" nuke.

It's not "really" a nuke.

Give me a fucking break. Juan Cole is one of the more thoughtful commentators on events in the Middle East, his ability to speak Arabic and Farsi provides a link to viewpoints not normally accessible to the mostly unilingual West.

How is that wrong?

BTW, just what would be wrong with translating history into other languages?

[papau]

25. "wipe Israel off the map" promise moves us from "right to no attack" to "when to attack"- n/t

n/t

[originalpckelly]

31. No, it means you're a fucking looney for advocating nukes...

when you have no fucking clue if Iran is really developing nuclear weapons or not.

[papau]

49. Hmmm - so we assume peaceful despite verbiage - trust and never verify - if they lie and

develop and then attack with nukes, the shame will be on them - and that shame will teach them to not ever do lies or nuclear attacks again.

And if the trusting folks are killed because those shameful people lied, well, they took one for the team - right?

I do not know how many Quakers one will find in Israel - but those that are there will agree.

[originalpckelly]

59. No, there's a HUGE difference between nuking someone...

and keeping them from getting nukes themselves.

Get the point?

This is so insane, I cannot believe you're actually advocating nuking people! How is this possible that DUer wants to nuke another country?

[papau]

84. I wanted and was happy with inspections in Iraq, getting the same in Iran ends the conflict as far

as I am concerned.

Not getting adequate inspections, with a spokesperson for the ones in power in Iran saying they will nuke, in so many words, leaves one looking for other options.

If I ran the US I would see how far sanctions took us.

If I ran Israel I would see how far sanctions take us, plus I would also draw up plans for a pre-emptive nuke strike.

The US has such plans for just about every country in this world. It does not mean we plan to nuke anyone. It just means we are prepared.

[Selah]

93. OK, you think the mullahs intentions are peacefull?

How can one trust them when they have been known to deceive the world about their nuc. program for years.

[mazzarro]

113. Has Israel divulged its own nuclear program? I don't think so! -- n/t

[Selah]

122. Until recently no. Olmert's "slip of the tongue" may have changed that.

Nor have they made any tirades about wiping their neighbors off the map.

[originalpckelly]

192. There is a difference between nuking someone and not trusting...

I do hope you know that, right?

[Justitia]

4. It's "Holocaust", and in the version you speak of, it's capitalized.

I'm not a nit-picker by any means, but this is an event in history which stands alone, the word should be given special attention.

[ellisonz]

170. You're in the right.

This whole thread makes me want to :puke:

[burythehatchet]

5. Thanks for the fresh analysis.

[Warren Stupidity]

76. Another vote in favor of nuclear war. nt.

[burythehatchet]

102. I was being sarcastic

this thread is like a fucking episode of the twilight zone. The fact that there are dim bulbs who are in favor of pre-emptive war in 2007 is simply mindboggling. Ahd the venom towards Iran, while ignoring every crime the US has committed against them is also puzzling. I really have to start ignoring the gang of DU keyboard settlers because everytime they spew I become a little more hardened in my positions, and I don't like that feeling.

[Zhade]

131. Remember, these morons are advocating PREVENTATIVE war.

Not pre-emptive, because (like with Iraq) there's no imminent threat to preempt!

[Warren Stupidity]

203. I am so pissed that your sarcasm went right over my head.

Sorry.

[burythehatchet]

219. No sweat, I know you well enough

:)

[oblivious]

8. He has never vowed to wipe Israel off the map, so cut the propaganda.

He said it will be removed from the map as the Soviet Union was, and renamed.

He has said it would rot from within.

He has never threatened to attack Israel.

[Herman Munster]

13. All quotes said by Ahmadinejad

"Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury."

"Remove Israel before it is too late and save yourself from the fury of regional nations."

"The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land. As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map."

"If the West does not support Israel, this regime will be toppled. As it has lost its raison d' tre, Israel will be annihilated."

"Israel is a tyrannical regime that will one day will be destroyed."

"Israel is a rotten, dried tree that will be annihilated in one storm."

[originalpckelly]

33. Who's crazier, people who *might* get nukes in a couple of years...

or the people with nukes who are planning to use them on Iran?

:shrug:

[INDIA]

74. Are you serious???

Israel of course is the sane party here. Duh. I mean, really, are you serious? A secular progressive western style democracy that has (probably) held nukes for years without using them even during times of conflict. OR a wacky Islamic caliphate that has just been sanctioned by the UN and is run by a Holocaust denier and still stones adulterers to death.

Your post just pisses me off, I'm sorry. They have drawn up plans for goodness sakes. I'm sure the US has plans somewhere detailing an attack on China, likewise for them. It doesn't mean ANYTHING.


I mean, come on, who's "crazier"??? Which country would YOU rather live in?

[originalpckelly]

81. I don't really think I'd choose either...

because both are being run into the ground by crazy right-wing extremists.

[INDIA]

85. You asked who is "crazier" between the two countries...

As if there is no answer, and they are both crazy. That's absurd. You cannot compare the two in any reasonable way.

I mean, there are gay pride parades in Jerusalem for goodness sakes. It's arguably a more progressive country than the US, and far and away more progressive, modern and secular than Iran.

Unfortunately, due to their Arab and Persian neighbors they have been forced to take an aggressive "right wing" (if you will) approach to their foreign policy and defense. It wasn't by choice, their behavior has been absolutely necessary for survival. The whole "peace and love" approach doesn't work too well in the Middle East when 100 million Arabs want you gone.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[INDIA]

185. HA!

Racist? Puh-leeze! I mean, HA! No but you're right, not ALL Arabs want Israel gone, only 95%.


It's the reality of the situation. The VAST VAST majority of Arabs in the ME want Israel gone, I haven't seen a single poll coming from the region stating otherwise. In fact, many from the ME believe that Israel caused 9-11! Arab governments, with the Arab media at their side, have brainwashed their populace into believing Israel is some sort of boogeyman responsible for all their problems.

Sorry if it makes you uncomfortable, but it's a realistic assessment of the situation.

Oh, and thanks for calling me a racist :eyes: I'll take being "racist" (pfft..) over being IGNORANT of reality.

Enjoy your fantasy world! Tell the lollipop dragon I said hello!

-Toodles!

[originalpckelly]

193. And you know what, they're going to get their wish when Israel nukes Iran.

No one in the world will sympathize with Israel if it does this. And if you are stupid enough to think there won't be some sort of retaliatory attack, you're nuts.

[INDIA]

201. Yeah, because I said that. I'm done. n/t

[Zhade]

222. Like I said, it's a racist stance. Unless you can prove your assertion.

Let's see these polls you assert prove you right.

Specifically, let's see the poll that backs up your 95% figure.

[Recursion]

157. "The sane party"?

If you'll notice, it's Israel that's talking about nuking Iran, not Iran that's talking about nuking Israel. It's Israel that has actually wiped another country "off the map", leaving only two territories of dubious cartographical status. It's Israel that keeps sending spies into the US, not Iran. So, as little as I trust Iran, I see no need to declare Israel the saner party of the two.

[ellisonz]

171. That's not true at all.

The article that is raising this hubbub, yet again, and mind you this is all fearmongering, is by a joke of a journalist. Israel has not threatened to use nuclear weapons...they have merely postured against Iran getting nuclear weapons. But Iran has made threats of catastrophe against Israel.

"It's Israel that has actually wiped another country "off the map", leaving only two territories of dubious cartographical status."

That's ahistorical and I'm not going to bother finding links to correct it.

[Name removed]

194. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[INDIA]

188. The other poster covered most of the bases..

But yeah, read a book on the early days of Israel. Although they were not without fault, they certainly didn't "wipe another country off the map", that's just incorrect.

And the Israeli spies? Yes, Israel has a voracious appetite for intelligence, and they have the money and the means to collect it. So what? We spy on our allies, and our allies spy on us. I don't see what point you're trying to make with that.

And when did Israel ever directly threaten Iran with nuclear weapons? Like the rest of the world (i.e. the UN) they have taken a political stance against Iran acquiring nukes. Meanwhile, Iran is busy denying the Holocaust and talking about a world without Israel, claiming it will rot from within. Yeah sure.

Let me make this clear....IF YOU ARE COMPARING ISRAEL AND IRAN, ISRAEL IS BY FAR THE MORE SANE OF THE TWO COUNTRIES!

phew! I said it.

[EVDebs]

40. The Mahdi sounds uncannily similar to the False Prophet in

Christian eschatology. I'd love to see PBS's Frontline investigate this topic but it's too PC to just avoid it entirely. You can't mention God on the front page of any paper. Por que ?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_prophet

False Prophet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_prophet

[LuckyTheDog]

58. And? So?

The dude is a nut and he really, really hates Jews. He talks like a lunatic, but does not have the kind of absolute power over his country that would make it easy for him to make good on any of that.

[WiseButAngrySara]

72. Have you read the 'Old Testament' and the various translations

of Moses? Sounds quite similar. Have you read the prophets of the 'Old Testament'? Sounds quite similar. This is your Koran, is it not?

[oblivious]

75. Not a single vow there to wipe Israel off the map.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

9. Wow.

Let's take a moment to remove emotions from this.

Iran has no nukes. None. Nada. Even if they're lying about their desire for nuclear energy and really only want to create nuclear weapons, it will still take them a decade to do so.

There's plenty of time to negotiate without shedding blood.

[TheBaldyMan]

10. only two errors in your hypothesis - Iran doesn't have any nukes

and it doesn't have missles that could reach Israel.

More scaremongering about Iran.

[oberliner]

21. What about the Shahab-3?

From the BBC, July, 2003:

Iran missile test alarms Israel

Israel has said it is "very concerned" after Iran confirmed it had conducted a final test of a missile capable of hitting its territory.

"We are very concerned, especially since we know that Iran is seeking to acquire the nuclear weapon," government spokesman Avi Pazner told AFP.

Iran has denied accusations by Israel and the United States that it is trying to develop nuclear weapons, and insists its missile programme is purely meant as a deterrent.

The head of the United Nations nuclear watchdog, Mohamed ElBaradei, is due to visit Tehran this week to seek clarification of Iran's nuclear programme.

The Shahab-3 ballistic missile test took place "several weeks ago," foreign ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi told reporters.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3051418.stm

[Herman Munster]

26. they don't even need long range weapons

All they have to do is get the nukes to Hezbollah in Lebanon. They've smuggled weapons to them in the past, they will again in the future.

[TheBaldyMan]

41. it can reach a tiny little corner of the occupied territories and about 1/2 a football field

in Israel proper (pre-67 borders) This missle's maximum range would be shorter if it was actually carrying a payload.

Don't believe the hype.

[WiseButAngrySara]

73. 2003??? Real concern there if it's taken them this long... WMD's

in Iraq? Never found because they didn't exist. I surmise the same is true about Iran.

[Fleshdancer]

12. No one person can speak for all Israelis

To say that "Israel" or "Jews" think one specific thought is ridiculous, especially when it comes to officially starting WW3.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PCIntern]

16. So the Palestininas are 'hated':

Should they get their homeland back? Absolutely not according to your logic.

Thank you.

[manic expression]

22. It's not their 'ancestral homeland', it's their land, period

Their lands, the lands their parents lived on and the lands their parents were unjustly driven out of, are being occupied. It is theirs, but it was wrongly taken from them.

Basically, someone of Irish descent doesn't have a right to land in Ireland just because their ancestors came from there, but if someone takes the land they were actually living on, they should have that land back.

[papau]

44. So there is no "right of return" after how many generations? - Are we there yet ? The buying of land

does not make it yours if you are a Jew?

If you are an Arab living under Ottoman rules and lived on state owned land, when the state falls and is replaced by another state, you now own the land you were renting?

Interesting - no doubt some on DU feel you're right - throw the Jews out, kill those that do not surrender and leave.

The Jews should no more react to Iranian promises to destroy Israel than we would react to a Canadian spokesperson for the "real powers" in Canada saying they were planing to destroy the US - wipe it off the map.

very logical.

[manic expression]

52. Right of return to what?

The Palestinians have a viable claim to that land: it was taken from them a few generations ago. The Zionists try to claim land that their ancestors left millenia ago. Surely anyone can see the difference.

Since my distant ancestors were from somewhere in West Britain, I can just waltz over there and take an estate as my own? Give me a break.

The Zionists first bought land, but in time it was clear that this was not the way they were going to go about things. The terrorist attacks that the Likud were making in the early 20th century serve as but one indication of this. In addition, the Zionists stole a great amount of land EVEN AFTER the UN partition ("al-Nakba" ring a bell?). They had no right to what they took when they claimed independence, that much is undeniable. They forced Palestinians off land that belonged to them. Since then, they have been consistently stealing land from other people.

Interesting, you didn't consider history or ethics, but that's not surprising.

And did I encourage the cleansing of Jews? No, I didn't, so don't claim I support ethnic cleansing, especially when you support the very state that is one of the most active in the field.

[papau]

78. Obviously there is a point where "right of return" ends - if it ever existed

My Med ancestors lost landholdings every century as governments changed and government officials favored one ethic group over another. The last few takings without compensation were in the Italian wars at the end of the 1800's, border changes around Greece during WW2, and Ottoman land at the end of WW1.

Which theft of land is not time closed in your view, so I can assume the history gives me the ethical right to lob a few rockets at the current owners?

As to "the disaster" - al-Nakba, and the parade that occurs in Israel, among other places, on 15 May - from wiki:

Efraim Karsh writes: "Even by the skewed standards of this field of studies, Pappé's latest book ranks in a class of its own. Not only does it add no new facts or ideas to the anti-Israel literature, but the sloppiness of its research astounds... More serious is the book's consistent resort to factual misrepresentation, distortion, and outright falsehood. Readers are told of events that never happened".<32> The significant reduction in numbers, the tearing apart of families who found themselves on either side of the newly created borders, and the loss of lands and homes, even for some of those who managed to remain, is referred to by all Palestinians, including those who are now citizens of Israel, as “al-Nakba,” i.e., the Disaster.<33>

(Our Jewish Professor Pappe explains the lies he pushes as truth as not being lies because they are the memories of Palestinians he deals with exclusively, because "Israeli officers lied in the past and lie in the present")

===============================================================

But as you said, in 48 the rejection of the UN resolution and the subsequent attack on Israel by the Arab states resulted in land changing hands, some of it unfairly (but as with all things in that culture, there is a bit of exaggeration as to how evil the other side was - the discredited Pappé book claiming 531 villages destroyed, 11 urban neighborhoods emptied, with massacres and rape - when the truth seems much less, albeit much less of an unfairness is still an unfairness, even if the excuse is that it was war)

[manic expression]

130. Obviously you're still ignoring the facts

There is a difference between "ancestral homeland" and "land that one lives on". You're not taking this difference into account. If a gypsy has their land stolen in Germany, they don't have a right to land in Pakistan, they have a right to the land that was taken from them. It's not that difficult to understand.

Your ancestors lost landholdings that they should not have lost. The injustice perpetrated upon your ancestors is NOT a justification for perpetrating that injustice upon other peoples.

The fallacy you are committing is believing that since one person steals someone's land, someone else is justified in stealing another's. That is nothing short of ridiculous and you know it.

If someone has their land blatantly stolen, they have a right to return to that land. Israel stole land from countless Palestinians, and so those Palestinians and their sons and daughters have an undeniable right to what was wrongly taken from them. You are trying to justify the occupation of stolen land, and it is beyond wrong.

Al-Nakba never happened? Deny it all you like, but you won't change history.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/1948.stm

Israel started "cleansing" their land of Palestinians, and then they started fighting the Arabs. Isreal then siezed Palestinian land; due to this theft, the Arab nations tried to fight the Zionists but could not win back what was taken. "Some of it unfairly" is a ludicrous statement: Israel took a great deal of Palestinian land without a single shred of justification; it was naked theft and ethnic cleansing. See the link above for more information.

[Lurking Dem]

199. What about the Sephardim?

[papau]

197. Perhaps wiki info might be of use

the BBC has always in my lifetime been both anti-Jew and anti-Israel (and that includes the BBC broadcasts I listened to as a child during WW2). Your BBC reference is - for things dealing with Israel - credible as to "facts" but not credible as to whole story. I hope that changes in the future, but it has not done so as yet, in my opinion.

Interestingly, while the wiki source takes the high side of the legimate counts of the number of refugees that I know of (saying 720,000 but there are estimates as low as 500,000 - not on the Arab side of course), the article as a whole is fair. I've reproduced parts of the article below.

The concept of rights and ethics in war in land taking is interesting. You claim recourse is limited to the city or state were land was lost - but in the case of the Jews it was lost to the "world" in the form of the Roman Empire - perhaps the world owed the Jews a right of return? In any case, war changes land holdings. When the Hun land was taken by others, they came east and took the land of others. The English Domesday book (a tax records book) records how over the first 40 years after 1086 80% of England went from Saxon owned to Norman owned via State land transfers and favorable courts. Ottoman State land transfered to the new Israeli State took no ones land - the tenants have no land ownership rights.

But there was land theft it should be compensated for. No one desputes the population movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

Under the leadership of Haj Amin al-Husayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the local Arabs rebelled against the British, and attacked the growing Jewish population repeatedly. These sporadic attacks began with the riots in Palestine of 1920 and Jaffa riots (or "Hurani Riots") of 1921. During the 1929 Palestine riots, 67 Jews were massacred in Hebron, and the survivors were evacuated by the British. In the late 1920s and early 1930s, several factions of Palestinian society became impatient with the internecine divisions and ineffectiveness of the Palestinian elite and engaged in grass-roots anti-British and anti-Zionist activism organized by groups such as the Young Men's Muslim Association. There was also support for the growth in influence of the radical nationalist Independence Party (Hizb al-Istiqlal), which called for a boycott of the British in the manner of the Indian Congress Party. Most of these initiatives were contained and defeated by notables in the pay of the Mandatory Administration, particularly the mufti and his cousin Jamal al-Husayni. The death of the preacher Shaykh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam at the hands of the British police near Jenin, in November 1935, generated widespread outrage and huge crowds accompanied Qassam's body to his grave in Haifa. A few months later, a spontaneous Arab national general strike broke out. This lasted until October 1936. During the summer of that year, thousands of acres of Jewish farmland and orchards were destroyed, Jews were attacked and murdered and some Jewish communities, such as those in Beisan and Acre, fled to safer areas.

In the wake of the strike and the Peel Commission recommendation of partition of the country into a small Jewish state and an Arab state to be attached to Jordan, an armed uprising spread through the country. Over the next 18 months, the British lost control of Jerusalem, Nablus and Hebron. ...1936 to 1939, known as the Great Arab Revolt.

... Rashid Khalidi argues that its negative effects on Palestinian national leadership, social cohesion and military capabilities contributed to the outcome of 1948 because "when the Palestinians faced their most fateful challenge in 1947–49, they were still suffering from the British repression of 1936–39, and were in effect without a unified leadership.

...The attacks on the Jewish population by Arabs had three lasting effects: First, they led to the formation and development of Jewish underground militias, primarily the Haganah ("The Defense"), which were to prove decisive in 1948. Secondly, it became clear that the two communities could not be reconciled, and the idea of partition was born. Thirdly, the British responded to Arab opposition with the White Paper of 1939, which severely restricted Jewish immigration throughout World War II, permanently alienating the Jewish community, which could no longer cooperate with the British.

..The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin al-Husayni, the Chairman of the Arab Higher Committee collaborated with Nazi Germany during World War II. In 1940, he asked the Axis powers to acknowledge the Arab right "to settle the question of Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries in accordance with the national and racial interests of the Arabs and along the lines similar to those used to solve the Jewish question in Germany and Italy." He spent the second half of World War II in Germany making radio broadcasts exhorting Muslims to ally with the Nazis in war against their common enemies. In one of these broadcasts, he said, "Arabs, arise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you."<20><21> In the immediate aftermath of the Holocaust, such statements by Arab leaders (along with the Mufti's violently antisemitic history) led to a widespread belief that the Jews were facing a new “warrant for genocide.” At the beginning of 1948, al-Husayni was in exile in Egypt. The Mufti was involved in some of the high level negotiations between Arab leaders, at a meeting held in Damascus in February 1948 to organize Palestinian Field Commands; however, the commanders of his Holy War Army, Hasan Salama and Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni, were allocated only the Lydda district and Jerusalem.

On 14 May Syria invaded Palestine with the 1st Infantry Brigade supported by a battalion of armoured cars, a company of French R 35 and R 37 tanks, an artillery battalion and other units. On 15–16 May they attacked the Israeli village Zemach, which they captured, following a renewed offensive, on 18 May. The village was abandoned following Syrian forces' defeat at the Deganias a few days later. Subsequently, the Syrians scored a victory at Mishmar HaYarden on 10 June after which they reverted to a defensive posture, conducting only a few minor attacks on small, exposed Israeli communities.

On the day following the adoption of the UN resolution, seven Jews were killed by Arabs in Palestine in three separate incidents: at 8 o'clock in the morning, in what came to be seen as the opening shots of the 1948 War, three Arabs attacked a bus from Netanya to Jerusalem, killing five Jewish passengers. Half an hour later, a second bus attack left one passenger dead. Later in the day a twenty-five-year old man was shot dead in Jaffa, where wild rumors spread about alleged attacks on Arabs by Jews. Arab prisoners also attempted to assault Jews in Acre prison, but were beaten back by guards. In Jerusalem the Arab Higher Committee called a three-day general strike from Tuesday, 2 December to be followed by mass demonstrations after Friday prayers. The Committee's statement included eight resolutions, the last of which called on the British Government "to hand over Palestine forthwith to its Arab people". On 2 December a mob looted and burned shops in the Jewish commercial district in Jerusalem, unopposed by British forces. From the beginning of the strike onwards Arab and Jewish clashes escalated and by 11 December the Jerusalem correspondent of The Times estimated that at least 130 people had died, "about 70 of them being Jews, 50 Arabs, and among the rest three British soldiers and one British policeman".

... violence steadily increased as both Jews and Arabs engaged in sniping, raids, and bombings that cost many lives on both sides. Between 30 November 1947 and 1 February 1948 427 Arabs, 381 Jews, and 46 British were killed and 1,035 Arabs, 725 Jews, and 135 Britons were wounded. In March 1948 alone, 271 Jews and 257 Arabs were killed.

Some of these villages along Jerusalem road were attacked and demolished. The 9 April Deir Yassin massacre, by Irgun and Lehi forces, of at least 107 Arabs was denounced by Ben-Gurion. Some claim the denouncement was part of an attempt to distance himself and the Haganah from the attackers, possibly to gain political advantage in the struggle to lead the as yet unformed Israeli state. In any case, the events at Deir Yassin caused panic amongst Arab villagers, causing many to flee. While this may have benefited the Jewish forces, who then encountered less resistance from depopulated villages, it also inflamed public opinion in Arab countries, providing those countries further reason for sending regular troops into the conflict. Four days later, on 13 April, the Arabs launched a strike on a medical convoy traveling to Hadassah Hospital. Around 77 doctors, nurses, and other Jewish civilians were massacred.

...Operation Dani was the most important one, aimed at securing and enlarging the corridor between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv by capturing the roadside cities Lydda (later renamed Lod) and Ramle. Following their capture, the residents of Lydda and Ramle, some 50,000 Palestinians, were forced to leave the city by the Israelis, in the largest single exodus of the war.

UN Resolution 194
In December 1948, the UN General Assembly passed Resolution 194 which declared (amongst other things) that in the context of a general peace agreement (Which did not and does not yet exit) "refugees wishing to return to their homes and live in peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so" and that "compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return." The resolution also mandated the creation of the United Nations Conciliation Commission. However, parts of the resolution were never implemented, resulting in the Palestinian refugee problem.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PA Democrat]

17. I don't believe that Ahmadinejad has any military powers.

The military is under the control of the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khamenei.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/iran_power/html/supreme_leader.stm

[PCIntern]

19. Whew...

Thank you for that...I feel so much better. Like we have checks and balances in this country...we could never go to war without letting everyone in power know exactly what the story is, right?

Why is the supposition that theIranian house in order de rigeur here? How does anyone here know, for a fact, what is going on in Iran when we have absolutely no idea what's going on in Washington?

[PA Democrat]

24. I was merely trying to contribute same FACTUAL background here.

I certainly would have stayed out if I thought it would result in such histrionics.

Are you a professional mindreader or do you just play one on DU?

[Skip Intro]

38. lol n/t

[Strelnikov_]

20. Assuming Ah-jad Is The last Word On Iranian Policy Is Like Assuming Tom Delay

was the last word on US policy.

And why do people assume that Iran, once they acquire a nuke, will use it? They, the US, and Israel all know the score. If Israel is hit, and there is any question that Iran was involved, they will cease to exist.

And I do not buy the 'madmen' argument. My impression of the real players in Iran are that they are very rational actors. They have played us like a fiddle regarding Iraq. If anything, the real danger is the state within a state nature of their military (Revolutionary Guard) and layered political system which makes them somewhat unpredictable.

Bottom line, IMHO, they do not want the bomb to strike the infidels. They want the bomb to keep the infidels from invading their country to: 1) steal what remains over their fossil resources, and 2) eliminate a rival for hegemony over the region containing over 80% of the worlds remaining energetically viable petroleum.

All of the above assuming that they are actually seeking a nuclear weapon, which is contrary to their stated policy, and of which there is no hard evidence that what they have is anything but a civilian program.

[dsc]

27. Tom Delay was pretty dang powerful

He was defacto Speaker of the House and his party members wouldn't defy him no matter what the consequences. Aside from Dick Cheney and George Bush I think he might have been the most powerful person in DC.

[Strelnikov_]

34. Delay Was A Political Hack, Just Like Ah-Jad. And Both Use The Same Tactics

to further their political position.

Are you honestly telling me that if Delay showed up at Powell's State, Rummy's DOD or Cheney's puzzle palace they would pay him any more heed than one would pay a well-heeled but eccentric uncle?

On edit: I agree, he was a powerful figure in the Reich, but as for setting foreign policy, I really do not think he was paid any heed. He was a thug, useful for beating up on the political opposition.

[dsc]

39. In his hey day they sure as heck would have

Delay controlled the money spicket in the US House and thus controlled the votes in the US House. If Tom Delay told Rumsfeld to jump Rumsfeld would ask how high unless Cheney or Bush told him he didn't have to.

[Strelnikov_]

42. It Then Appears We Are Disagreement In Delay's Power Over Foreign Policy

direction.

So be it.

On edit: The intent was simply to express my opinion that Ah-jad has little power. To paraphrase a line from 'Band of Brothers', "Fighting over Delay, now that makes a lot of sense".

[Hardrada]

29. I think you are correct here.

And sensible too. I think we don't really need inflammatory rhetoric on this issue (from either side).

[scarletwoman]

48. Thanks for a bit of sanity amidst all the hysterical nonsense.

Even nuclear-armed Pakistan and India have managed to largely settle into a Cold War U.S./U.S.S.R. style of living with MAD (mutually assured destruction). The Iranian leadership is not suicidal; even if they were to eventually develop nuclear weapons, they are not going to launch any first strikes on nuclear-armed Israel.

I don't buy any of that "madman" b.s. either.

sw

[originalpckelly]

69. Well, the fact is that he has no control over the military.

I'll ask you one question:

5 years ago did you even know there was a President in Iran? The position is not powerful, Ahmadinejad is not a dictator, nor is even comparable in power to Hitler. The Supreme Leader is the top guy in Iran.

[scarletwoman]

77. " 5 years ago did you even know there was a President in Iran?" Well, actually I did.

It was Khatami, and I was hopeful back then that he might be able to steer Iran away from the grip of the Mullahs. But, in large part due to the hamfisted foreign policy of the bush cabal, the forces of moderation in Iran were greatly weakened.

sw

[piedmont]

86. MAD has worked for 50 yrs. It'll probably continue to work.

Israel's got nukes and will use them on Iran if Iran attacked Israel. If Iran had nukes, they'd do the same. Mutually assured destruction. Like you, I don't buy the argument that Iran would proceed directly to nuking Israel if it had the means. It's just not rational.
As long as everyone plays the game rationally and logically, the nukes never leave the silos. I am concerned about the apparent dominance of religious extremism in the Iranian government, although most of the rhetoric spews from Ahmadinijhad (sp), who is mainly just a mouthpiece anyway.

[Phrogman]

169. Excellent response, you're right on the money.

e0m

[NNN0LHI]

37. Wait a minute. I remember similar posts as this one on the lead up to invading Iraq

Those posters all left right after the invasion began.

Don

[bananas]

96. Maybe we can expect the same from these two.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3060468&mesg_id=3060726

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[unsavedtrash]

51. "if there'd even be any neo-con's in the Bush admin, if it were not for the Jews"

:argh: thanks for sharing.
Talking about Israel should not mean moving to shit like "the Jews."

[Jcrowley]

47. You're missing a few details

Well more than a few but anyway.

Under the NPT, all Iran is required to do is allow inspections of its nuclear facilities to ensure that no weapons-grade nuclear material is being produced. Any further demands expressed by the US and the UK via the UN are related to geopolitics and are not surprisingly, being rejected by Iran. Just as is the case with Iraq, the US and UK military-industrial-petroleum-banking conglomerate have economic and strategic interests at stake and are attempting to manipulate the UN Security Council in an effort to pursue an agenda that is mostly hidden from the American and British people, and from other UN members. Despite the ongoing obfuscation, the three important issues to consider concerning this largely manufactured “crisis” are as follows: 1) Despite three years of inspections by the IAEA, no factual evidence that Iran is developing a clandestine nuclear weapons program has ever been uncovered. In addition, a classified CIA assessment from 2006 described by reporter Seymour Hersh also found “no conclusive evidence...of a secret Iranian nuclear-weapons program. 2) According to the NPT, Iran and any other signatory nation has an “unalienable right” to nuclear technology, including the enrichment process. In 2003 two small uranium samples were found by the IAEA that were enriched to 36 percent (these samples are well above the 4 to 5 percent purity needed for nuclear power, but far below the 90 percent purity required for nuclear weapons. Following this discovery and subsequent investigation period, Iran agreed to suspend enrichment and to the voluntary aspects of the Additional Protocol. After it was determined that the enriched uranium samples found in Iran originated from a discarded Pakistani-sourced centrifuge, Iran considered the IAEA investigation complete and re-started its small enrichment program. Iran remains in compliance with the NPT, despite US media reporting to the contrary. 3) Even if Iran sought to build nuclear bombs, and a clandestine weapons project was initiated in secrecy, the consensus of the US intelligence agencies as outlined in the 2005 National Intelligence Estimate is that Iran could not make enough highly enriched uranium (HEU) fissile material for a bomb until the middle of the next decade (2015). This is likely due to the fact that Iran’s uranium ore is contaminated with molybdenum, a heavy metal that must be removed for HEU production, lest the molybdenum will crash the uranium enrichment cascades. Reportedly only a few advanced nuclear powers, such as the US, Russia, and China have the infrastructure to undertake this process.

You are being lied to, manipulated. See through it. The only other possibility is that you choose to believe the falsehoods from The State Department for other reasons.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

54. You have a way of putting things into perspective that I envy

Well said and thank you.

[burythehatchet]

109. Your effort at reasonable analysis is commendable

but you should realize that there is no rationality in the debate here in America. There is a much more enlightened debate in Israel where there is a citizenry that actually understands the consequence of their governments actions. But just like here, they have no voice.

[Jcrowley]

50. Any thoughts?

[jwirr]

56. Unfortunately one may trigger the other.

[Warren Stupidity]

62. "The fallout will be of no risk to Israel. "

A new ethical standard: it is ok to nuke another country if the fallout will not be a danger to your own country. Nice. Should other nations also adhere to this new standard? Or just the the exceptional nations?

"The B61 is a variable-yield, kiloton-range weapon. Tactical versions (Mods 3, 4, and 10) can be set to 0.3, 1.5, 5, 10, 60, 80, or 170 kiloton explosive yield (depending on version)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B61_nuclear_bomb

"Abstract : The airborne microphone gage pressure record of the Hiroshima shot is used to determine the yield of the Little Boy weapon. The geometry of the Hiroshima mission is reconstructed and analyzed to determine the slant range between the burst point and the canister along which the shock traveled. The height of burst, slant range and peak pressure are used in the Naval Ordnance Laboratory-Nonhomogeneous Atmospheric Transmission code to determine the energy yield of the Hiroshima weapon. The result of this analysis is a plot of weapon yield as a function of slant range for the peak pressure observed at Hiroshima. The yield of the Hiroshima weapon, based on the slant range determination in this report, is 15.2 kt. This result should be of interest to those concerned with physical vulnerability analyses based on Hiroshima data. Some discussion is given on other methods of finding the yield of the Hiroshima weapon. (Author)"

http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0627857

So the B61 tactical nuclear weapon "bunker buster" is very much in the same class of weapons as the Hiroshima bomb, either a lower or greater yield can be set and the weapon deployed against the people of Iran could be 10x the yield of the Hiroshima weapon.

Don't let the facts get in the way of your blind xenophobia.

[Nutmegger]

63. I thought Israel didn't have nukes?!

:sarcasm:

:eyes:

[originalpckelly]

65. That's a very good point, and it shows the lack of honesty on the part of the Israelis.

They may even know that this will have a different effect than openly stated, we simply cannot trust them.

Nor should we trust Iran, but being skeptical about Iran's protestations that it is not developing nuclear weapons, in no way equals being "for" nuking Iran.

[cool user name]

64. First off, you need to learn how to spell Holocaust ...

Second of all, you need to check out your misinformation instead of being part of the problem.

Tactical nukes, eh, no big deal. :sarcasm:

:eyes:

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madrchsod]

79. the moderator is asleep

[WiseButAngrySara]

95. Must be! I/P Dungeon might be closed for all I know! I haven't

ventured there in months, and I almost left DU because of some of the foul discussion that was tolerated ...found out why it's called the dungeon.

[madrchsod]

101. i/p is not for the faint of heart

i`ve seen a lot of people come and go in the i/p forum in the almost five years i`ve been here

[pinto]

139. After five years, you must know we're not asleep.

:hi:

[Broken_Hero]

150. moderators, what is that?

I'm curious....

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluewave]

87. Author overlooks the good possibility Ahmad. will lose the next election

We're going to nuke innocent people for a guy who may not be there in a couple years. Sheer insanity.

[piedmont]

88. "Ahmad" is pretty much just a mouthpiece anyway.

His job seems to be playing "bad cop" to the hard-liners... well, less-bad-cop.

[Selah]

90. Do not be deceived

He is not the only one calling the shots. Besides he has been quoted as saying that the 12th. Imam is coming and that he believes it his duty to bring an apocalypse to hasten his return. See the book "Epicenter" by Joel C. Rosenburg.

[bluewave]

92. Oh good, so now we're going to nuke people for their beliefs.

Sad fact: if he believed this in our country, he would be covered under the First Amendment. But since this comes from a country that is not American (worthless brown people, plenty of them) we're going to support nuking people who have nothing to do with this man's beliefs.

Preemptive war is never an option. When will people learn? Did you people learn nothing in Iraq?

[Selah]

98. ?

[bluewave]

103. The book you quoted was written by an apocalyptic Messianic Jew

who works with Limbaugh and Netanyahu. Media Matters has criticized him for pimping the apocalypse on CNN. Not a credible source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_C._Rosenberg

[Selah]

110. Wrong! He is a christian. He was born as a Russian Jew

You got something against Jews? So, you have read the book and on your own and discovered evidence that discredits the numerous FACTS Cited as known historical events and the numerous predictions the author made as being untrue? Ps. Wikipedia does not make one an authority.

[bluewave]

117. True, but I generally stay away from people associated with Limbaugh

and Netanyahu. I have nothing against Jews considering my father is one and one appears in my avatar. Messianic Jew is a title.

I simply can't think of an argument persuasive enough to justify preemptive nuclear assault. I don't think Iranian leadership is eager for their cities and holy sites to be turned into glass by Israel. It doesn't make any sense. Who will take responsibility for the deaths of innocents when Israel nukes them?

[PA Democrat]

114. Did you not READ the opening post?

The poster is advocating a preemptive strike against Iran using NUCLEAR weapons. The estimated death toll from a SINGLE nuclear bunker buster is 3,000,000 civilians with another 35,000,000 exposed to dangerous levels of radiation. Watch this:

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_security/nuclear_weapons/nuclear-bunker-buster-rnep-animation.html

Do you support the murder of 3,000,000 people as the opening poster is advocating?

[Selah]

128. I have read many threads on this post.

Of course, It would be a tradgedy to deploy a nuclear weapon preemptively or otherwise. As surely as the millions of lives that tragically ended in world war II. In Japan, though tragic, the bombs saved lives. Personally, I believe we will succomb to a nuclear armed Iran. Question is, what can we do to prevent THEM from using this technology on us or our neighbors? Ps. I saw the video.

[PA Democrat]

133. Yes, the coming nuclear war brought to you by the same

cast of characters who brought you the non-existent WMD's in Iraq.

Iran does not for a fact currently have nuclear weapons. How sure do you have to be that they are seconds away from pushing the button before you murder 3,000,000 people?

Pretty risky business. And is quite disheartening to see this so callously discussed here.

[Herman Munster]

134. what is this murder 3,000,000 people bullshit?

A tactical nuke with a sub kiloton yield is not going to murder 3,000,000 people.

[PA Democrat]

136. Bullshit?

Watch this:

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_security/nuclear_weapons/nuclear-bunker-buster-rnep-animation.html

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[piedmont]

104. bluewave, you make a good enough argument without calling people racist. nt

[bluewave]

107. Sorry, apologies to Selah, I was speaking in general. Sad truth is that

we wouldn't even be considering this against a country populated with whites.

[piedmont]

126. We considered some pretty nutty things against the USSR nt

[windbreeze]

135. I am not familiar with the author

are we to believe he's of arab descent, and speaks with authority about what other arabs are thinking, saying, feeling??
wb

[charlie]

137. He's another end-times nutter

with a vested interest in seeing that biblical "prophesies" come true. Just another one of the annoying kids in the back seat going, "Is it Armageddon yet? Is it Armageddon yet? IS IT ARMAGEDDON YET?!"

[The Rock2111]

146. You are to research for yourself

That means actually reading the book. I have, and found many of the author's predictions beyond dispute.

[Name removed]

214. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Rock2111]

221. In your research, which groups did you find controlling the media?

Everything else that was said has no bearing upon the book or its author - please refer to post #151. I do agree with the fact that bias exists in the media and elswhere and that it is wise to distinquish, when possible, the real motive or agenda behind it before accepting it at face value. Further, I agree that there is always another side to be considered, the likes of which, are rarely tolerated on this forum.

[k_jerome]

89. amen bro. nt.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[k_jerome]

100. huh? i can't respond to a post here? nt.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jcrowley]

105. Iran doesn't have nuclear weapons

so the supposition of the OP is a material impossibility.

Are you aware of this?

[k_jerome]

106. it could be possible though...

isn't Iran working toward this goal?

[Jcrowley]

111. Please my friend, you are being manipulated

Under the NPT, all Iran is required to do is allow inspections of its nuclear facilities to ensure that no weapons-grade nuclear material is being produced. Any further demands expressed by the US and the UK via the UN are related to geopolitics and are not surprisingly, being rejected by Iran. Just as is the case with Iraq, the US and UK

military-industrial-petroleum-banking conglomerate have economic and strategic interests at stake and are attempting to manipulate the UN Security Council in an effort to pursue an agenda that is mostly hidden from the American and British people, and from other UN members.

Despite the ongoing obfuscation, the three important issues to consider concerning this largely manufactured “crisis” are as follows:

1) Despite three years of inspections by the IAEA, no factual evidence that Iran is developing a clandestine nuclear weapons program has ever been uncovered. In addition, a classified CIA assessment from 2006 described by reporter Seymour Hersh also found “no conclusive evidence...of a secret Iranian nuclear-weapons program.

2) According to the NPT, Iran and any other signatory nation has an “unalienable right” to nuclear technology, including the enrichment process. In 2003 two small uranium samples were found by the IAEA that were enriched to 36 percent (these samples are well above the 4 to 5 percent purity needed for nuclear power, but far below the 90 percent purity required for nuclear weapons. Following this discovery and subsequent investigation period, Iran agreed to suspend enrichment and to the voluntary aspects of the Additional Protocol. After it was determined that the enriched uranium samples found in Iran originated from a discarded Pakistani-sourced centrifuge, Iran considered the IAEA investigation complete and re-started its small enrichment program. Iran remains in compliance with the NPT, despite US media reporting to the contrary.

3) Even if Iran sought to build nuclear bombs, and a clandestine weapons project was initiated in secrecy, the consensus of the US intelligence agencies as outlined in the 2005 National Intelligence Estimate is that Iran could not make enough highly enriched uranium (HEU) fissile material for a bomb until the middle of the next decade (2015). This is likely due to the fact that Iran’s uranium ore is contaminated with molybdenum, a heavy metal that must be removed for HEU production, lest the molybdenum will crash the uranium enrichment cascades. Reportedly only a few advanced nuclear powers, such as the US, Russia, and China have the infrastructure to undertake this process.

You are being lied to, manipulated. See through it. The only other possibility for those who swallow the lies being propagated by the State Department is that there are other motives.

Please question everything I say and research it more deeply.

[k_jerome]

115. thanks for the info. i will look into it further.

admitedly, most of my info has been from the MSM.

[Jcrowley]

120. No problem

There are tremendous forces out there that are constantly distorting reality. They do not have your or my interests at heart. No matter what our preconceived and conditioned allegiance may be it is best to challenge all assumptions. Take care.

"If humanity does not opt for integrity we are through completely. It is absolutely touch and go. Each one of us could make the difference." R. Buckminster Fuller

[Zhade]

223. Thank you for being willing to consider these facts.

Some DUers are too stuck in their conservative mindset to do so. I applaud your ability to admit the possibility of being in error.

[PA Democrat]

119. Are you aware that the type of preemptive NUCLEAR attack being advocated by the opening poster

would result in an estimated 3,000,000 deaths? Do you really support mass murder of this magnitude?

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_security/nuclear_weapons/nuclear-bunker-buster-rnep-animation.html

[k_jerome]

123. i don't read it as advocating that. nt.

[PA Democrat]

124. Quote from the OP:

"Also, there is much misinformation about the nukes being considered. These are tactical nukes with yields small fractions of those used in WW II. The fallout will be of no risk to Israel."

That's not an endorsement for using nukes? PFFT! The fallout will drift east, so Israelis won't be killed. But basically, who gives a damn about people in Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India?

Watch the video I linked. It is vile to trivialize the death of millions.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

206. And China. But they're dirty commies, so maybe the OP is OK with them dying too. -nt

[KoKo]

94. Right....Israel can go against a ban on using Nukes because it fears

it's citizens being rounded up in "gas chambers" once again. :eyes:

Have you thought of the consequences of Israel doing such a thing? Has Israel realized that the American People who aren't Neo-Con/PNAC'ers are in no mood for this kind of stunt to bring on WWIII and get Bush/Cheney off the hook by causing a disturbance they think will keep the Dem Congress from investigations? Or, is the Israeli Government so emboldened by the support they have from the Neo-Cons that they are like Bush/Cheney and will feel that "doctrine of pre-emptive strike" now applies to them also.

[HuffleClaw]

97. hmmmm

if you shoot someone with a .38 instead of a .44 you're still shooting them. so much for 'these are tactical nukes'. as for 'the fallout will be of no risk to israel', its not fallout on israel that is in question, its the consequences of the madness of using nuclear weapons that is. also, ahmadinejad has been repeatedly misquoted, hardly a reason to justify war.

[Zhade]

116. Yeah, because Iran wants the fallout, not to mention a retaliatory strike.

Stop feeding the fucking paranoia and learn some facts. If Iran nuked Israel, IRAN would also suffer the fallout.

Ahmadinejad might be crazy, but does he desire dying of cancer? Doubtful.

I reject your premise, and spit on it. You're doing nothing but using half-truths to fan the flames of war.

[The Traveler]

118. Fallout "may impose no risk to Israel"

but other regions might well be at risk ... haven't looked at a fallout projection chart of the region in a long, long time. But let us say it DID impose a risk to Russia. Hmmm ... consider the following analogy. If someone nuked Mexico and fallout came down on, say San Diego, how would our government react? Would reception of fallout from a strike on another nation be considered a nuclear attack on us? How would the Russians feel about it if they were in this situation?

Therein lies a considerable rub, of course. What ever nation first unloads nuclear weapons on another will become an abomination in the eyes of the world. Israel may well face a coalition of other powers (say, Russia, China, Pakistan, etc.) that will have as their purpose denying Israel future use of a nuclear option. If we support Israel in that context, it will only serve to deepen our political isolation. I shudder to think what trade embargoes would do to us now that we don't make anything here ...

What we call tactical nukes today were the ultimate weapons of 1945. Their use will not be without dire consequence. There are other ways we can deal with Iran.

[PA Democrat]

127. Death toll estimates from a single 1 megaton tactical nuke are 3,000,000

Video animation here:

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_security/nuclear_weapons/nuclear-bunker-buster-rnep-animation.html

[The Traveler]

141. Thanks for the link

Yeah ... that would be a problem. 1 meg is heavy for a "tactical" weapon ... I guess the point is this just isn't an option sane people would be considering.

[The Rock2111]

143. I have seen the video

Would like to compare notes from a non-enviro group.

[PA Democrat]

145. The death toll estimates are based upon the PENTAGON'S data

Or is the Pentagon too much of a "tree-hugger" organization?

[The Rock2111]

147. You got something against environmentalists?

[PA Democrat]

148. It was meant sarcastically.

[raysr]

138. Don't go away mad

Is., just go.

[EndElectoral]

144. GW has set the stage with this pre-emptive crap without proof!!! Madness!

[shadowknows69]

149. Well if Israel nukes Iran or anyone

then they're fucking nutjobs. We need to as a world decide to dismantle all of these species ending toys of ours.

[Superman Returns]

151. I partially agree with Herman Munster

Part of the reason I felt Iraq was a mistake was due to its lack of immenent danger. Iran with a nuke on the other hand, can not be allowed. Can we live in a world where Iran is a nuclear power? All it takes is one nuke to destroy Israel, and essentially half the worlds Jewish population. While I feel that the neocons and lukidneks are warmongers and frankly, make up a lot of shit, I think the rational can at least agree that a nuclear Iran is detrimental to the interests of the civilized world. If necessary Israel needs to attack the specific targets like it did against Iraq in the 80's. However, leave it at that. America should not further attack Iran, invade it, or occupy it. That would be a disaster.

[PA Democrat]

153. Except there is the sticky little problem of the fact that Iran does not currently have any nukes.

Is Israel justified in killing 3,000,000 civilians using nukes of their own to prevent the POSSIBILITY that Iran may develop them in the future? Furthermore, I don't see the logic of assuming that Iran would attack Israel with a nuclear weapon. They would be assuring their own annihilation.

[Superman Returns]

154. it would not assure their annhilation

To talk about it really simply, Israel is extremely small, Iran is perhaps the largest country in the Middle East. Between the Iraq debacle which has any American response severely limited, and the hesitance of the EU, Russia, and China to take military action, I think some Iranian leadership is betting that world will leave Israel to basically die, since one nuke would do that.

[PA Democrat]

155. Doubtful.

And foolish to preemptively nuke Iran based upon predictions of what Iran's leaders might or might not decide to do. How many lives are you willing to bet on your predictions? That's the problem with preemptive strikes.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

158. If you truly believe Iran could nuke Israel with no nuclear response from either

Bushco or Israel itself, you simply could not be more deluded and still be breathing.

[Selatius]

162. Sorry, but 1 nuke could not destroy Israel, and if Iran had any, they'd be primitive at best.

Recheck your maps on Israel, and note this fact:

The bomb dropped on Hiroshima destroyed 13 sq. kilometers of land. Israel is far larger than that.

Just google a map of Israel and compare a 13 sq. kilometer block of land to the entire size of Israel.

To be blunt, one Little Boy sized weapon would kill tens of thousands instantly and produce appalling destruction, but one wouldn't represent the end of Israel.

[Recursion]

160. We're living with a nuclear Israel, aren't we?

One in a position to kill essentially half of the world's Persian population. One that, unlike any other nuclear power I know of, is actively talking about using nuclear devices in a first strike (even North Korea isn't saying that). Yes, having a nuclear Israel is destabilizing and detrimental to the interests of the civilized world. But we live with it. A nuclear Iran would be too, but we could live with that also.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

152. Excellent

flamebait.

[Tom Joad]

156. A great example of the worst kind of flame bait. and rampant misspellings.

Holocaust, the correct spelling. Please be respectful.

[kdpeters]

159. How about we move the Jewish homeland to Wyoming. That'd solve everything.

Seems to me the entire problem is just a question of real estate. Have some of ours. Problem solved.

[ellisonz]

172. For nearly 2000 years Jew's were mostly exiled from their Holy Land by force.

From 1948 - 1967 the most Holy site in Judaism was under Jordanian control and Jews were not allowed to visit.




So yes, it's real estate, but it is profoundly symbolic real estate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Wall

[originalpckelly]

195. It's fucking land. It's not worth so many fucking lives.

I'm sorry, but this bullshit is over a fucking piece of land?

REALLY? It's just so fucking insane. Land is not worth risking so many lives for.

You see this is the problem with religion, people will probably always figure out an excuse to kill other people, but religion is up there on the list of things which get used most frequently. This is so arbitrary, you can't prove shit about that fucking wall, nor can the fucking nutty Muslims about that fucking al-Aqsa mosque.

And now people are about to kill other people over fucking DIRT!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

225. "Profoundly symbolic real estate"...

that has been fought over by various religions for centuries -- all that violence, loss of life, and hatred over a "symbol". At what point do the parties gain some damn sanity and say, "It's just a symbol. Is one human life worth that wall/mosque/church?"

But the deeply religious have too often been lacking in common sense.

[Lurking Dem]

227. So Wyoming is a hot idea?

Seriously, where were the Jews going to go? 800,000 were kicked out of the Arab countries they had lived in. The survivors of the Holocaust went where there were long standing centers of Jewish population. Hebron was the oldest continuous Jewish city on the planet.

So you pick up the 6+ million residents of modern Israel and plop then in, say, Wyoming.

Do you think the residents of Wyoming would not be upset? Do you think Jews would be any more welcome there than anywhere else? Or our Jews supposed to try, once again after so many dismal failures, to assimilate into their host country and not be able to have a plce to call their own?

[Selatius]

161. If anything, I think Iran would be wiped out in a nuclear confrontation with Israel.

Last time I checked, the only power in the region with probably over 100 nuclear warheads is Israel. I think the CIA says Israel has 400. Ahmadinejad is a holocaust denier, not a suicide case. The same applies to Kim Jong-Il. The idea of wiping out Israel from the Iranian perspective is the idea of condemning all 75,000,000 Iranians to nuclear holocaust in the form of mushroom clouds. Israel has the power to make the entire Persian people disappear from history forever. If Iran's 400 largest cities were nuked, tens of millions would die immediately. The rest of the countryside would become so toxic with radioactive fallout that tens of millions more would die from radiation sickness.

With that said, there's a lot of speculation about Iran's nuclear program, but the IAEA has not said in the affirmative that there truly exists an illicit nuclear weapons program outside the civilian program that currently exists.

[liberal hypnotist]

165. Hot Button Issues

One thing to consider beyond hot button issues and the use of "hate", "holocaust and "wipe Israel of the map" is the health of the human race if the door to using nuclear weapons is opened anymore. I believe we are using some form of nuclear armament now, like dirty bombs.

War kills young people, old people, good people and bad people.

We have our own "nut job" to get rid of. He and Cheney seem to be very loose "nuclear" cannons.

[Bluebear]

168. 'After the halocaust'

:eyes:

[ellisonz]

173. Not once, but twice.

'and declared the halocaust a "myth."'

:banghead:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

212. And "anti-semetics." Don't forget "anti-semetic." -nt

[Zhade]

224. What the heck is the halocaust?

Is it when you really annahilate a whole group of Covenant?

</gamer>

[ellisonz]

174. The popped corn is especially tasty tonight...

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Herman Munster]

176. when have israel's neighbors TREATED THEM as human beings?

Or do you neglect to remember all the fucking wars the arab nations declared against Israel in its 50 odd years of existence?

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[papau]

200. Perhaps wiki info might be of use

Interestingly, while the wiki source takes the high side of the legimate counts of the number of refugees that I know of (saying 720,000 but there are estimates as low as 500,000 - not on the Arab side of course), the article as a whole is fair. I've reproduced parts of the article below.

The concept of rights and ethics in war in land taking is interesting. If there is a right of return and - in the case of the Jews it was lost to the "world" in the form of the Roman Empire - perhaps the world owed the Jews a right of return? In any case, war changes land holdings. When the Hun land was taken by others, they came east and took the land of others. The English Domesday book (a tax records book) records how over the first 40 years after 1086 80% of England went from Saxon owned to Norman owned via State land transfers and favorable courts. Ottoman State land transfered to the new Israeli State took no ones land - the tenants have no land ownership rights.

But there was land theft it should be compensated for. No one desputes the population movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

Under the leadership of Haj Amin al-Husayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the local Arabs rebelled against the British, and attacked the growing Jewish population repeatedly. These sporadic attacks began with the riots in Palestine of 1920 and Jaffa riots (or "Hurani Riots") of 1921. During the 1929 Palestine riots, 67 Jews were massacred in Hebron, and the survivors were evacuated by the British. In the late 1920s and early 1930s, several factions of Palestinian society became impatient with the internecine divisions and ineffectiveness of the Palestinian elite and engaged in grass-roots anti-British and anti-Zionist activism organized by groups such as the Young Men's Muslim Association. There was also support for the growth in influence of the radical nationalist Independence Party (Hizb al-Istiqlal), which called for a boycott of the British in the manner of the Indian Congress Party. Most of these initiatives were contained and defeated by notables in the pay of the Mandatory Administration, particularly the mufti and his cousin Jamal al-Husayni. The death of the preacher Shaykh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam at the hands of the British police near Jenin, in November 1935, generated widespread outrage and huge crowds accompanied Qassam's body to his grave in Haifa. A few months later, a spontaneous Arab national general strike broke out. This lasted until October 1936. During the summer of that year, thousands of acres of Jewish farmland and orchards were destroyed, Jews were attacked and murdered and some Jewish communities, such as those in Beisan and Acre, fled to safer areas.

In the wake of the strike and the Peel Commission recommendation of partition of the country into a small Jewish state and an Arab state to be attached to Jordan, an armed uprising spread through the country. Over the next 18 months, the British lost control of Jerusalem, Nablus and Hebron. ...1936 to 1939, known as the Great Arab Revolt.

... Rashid Khalidi argues that its negative effects on Palestinian national leadership, social cohesion and military capabilities contributed to the outcome of 1948 because "when the Palestinians faced their most fateful challenge in 1947–49, they were still suffering from the British repression of 1936–39, and were in effect without a unified leadership.

...The attacks on the Jewish population by Arabs had three lasting effects: First, they led to the formation and development of Jewish underground militias, primarily the Haganah ("The Defense"), which were to prove decisive in 1948. Secondly, it became clear that the two communities could not be reconciled, and the idea of partition was born. Thirdly, the British responded to Arab opposition with the White Paper of 1939, which severely restricted Jewish immigration throughout World War II, permanently alienating the Jewish community, which could no longer cooperate with the British.

..The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin al-Husayni, the Chairman of the Arab Higher Committee collaborated with Nazi Germany during World War II. In 1940, he asked the Axis powers to acknowledge the Arab right "to settle the question of Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries in accordance with the national and racial interests of the Arabs and along the lines similar to those used to solve the Jewish question in Germany and Italy." He spent the second half of World War II in Germany making radio broadcasts exhorting Muslims to ally with the Nazis in war against their common enemies. In one of these broadcasts, he said, "Arabs, arise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you."<20><21> In the immediate aftermath of the Holocaust, such statements by Arab leaders (along with the Mufti's violently antisemitic history) led to a widespread belief that the Jews were facing a new “warrant for genocide.” At the beginning of 1948, al-Husayni was in exile in Egypt. The Mufti was involved in some of the high level negotiations between Arab leaders, at a meeting held in Damascus in February 1948 to organize Palestinian Field Commands; however, the commanders of his Holy War Army, Hasan Salama and Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni, were allocated only the Lydda district and Jerusalem.

On 14 May Syria invaded Palestine with the 1st Infantry Brigade supported by a battalion of armoured cars, a company of French R 35 and R 37 tanks, an artillery battalion and other units. On 15–16 May they attacked the Israeli village Zemach, which they captured, following a renewed offensive, on 18 May. The village was abandoned following Syrian forces' defeat at the Deganias a few days later. Subsequently, the Syrians scored a victory at Mishmar HaYarden on 10 June after which they reverted to a defensive posture, conducting only a few minor attacks on small, exposed Israeli communities.

On the day following the adoption of the UN resolution, seven Jews were killed by Arabs in Palestine in three separate incidents: at 8 o'clock in the morning, in what came to be seen as the opening shots of the 1948 War, three Arabs attacked a bus from Netanya to Jerusalem, killing five Jewish passengers. Half an hour later, a second bus attack left one passenger dead. Later in the day a twenty-five-year old man was shot dead in Jaffa, where wild rumors spread about alleged attacks on Arabs by Jews. Arab prisoners also attempted to assault Jews in Acre prison, but were beaten back by guards. In Jerusalem the Arab Higher Committee called a three-day general strike from Tuesday, 2 December to be followed by mass demonstrations after Friday prayers. The Committee's statement included eight resolutions, the last of which called on the British Government "to hand over Palestine forthwith to its Arab people". On 2 December a mob looted and burned shops in the Jewish commercial district in Jerusalem, unopposed by British forces. From the beginning of the strike onwards Arab and Jewish clashes escalated and by 11 December the Jerusalem correspondent of The Times estimated that at least 130 people had died, "about 70 of them being Jews, 50 Arabs, and among the rest three British soldiers and one British policeman".

... violence steadily increased as both Jews and Arabs engaged in sniping, raids, and bombings that cost many lives on both sides. Between 30 November 1947 and 1 February 1948 427 Arabs, 381 Jews, and 46 British were killed and 1,035 Arabs, 725 Jews, and 135 Britons were wounded. In March 1948 alone, 271 Jews and 257 Arabs were killed.

Some of these villages along Jerusalem road were attacked and demolished. The 9 April Deir Yassin massacre, by Irgun and Lehi forces, of at least 107 Arabs was denounced by Ben-Gurion. Some claim the denouncement was part of an attempt to distance himself and the Haganah from the attackers, possibly to gain political advantage in the struggle to lead the as yet unformed Israeli state. In any case, the events at Deir Yassin caused panic amongst Arab villagers, causing many to flee. While this may have benefited the Jewish forces, who then encountered less resistance from depopulated villages, it also inflamed public opinion in Arab countries, providing those countries further reason for sending regular troops into the conflict. Four days later, on 13 April, the Arabs launched a strike on a medical convoy traveling to Hadassah Hospital. Around 77 doctors, nurses, and other Jewish civilians were massacred.

...Operation Dani was the most important one, aimed at securing and enlarging the corridor between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv by capturing the roadside cities Lydda (later renamed Lod) and Ramle. Following their capture, the residents of Lydda and Ramle, some 50,000 Palestinians, were forced to leave the city by the Israelis, in the largest single exodus of the war.

UN Resolution 194
In December 1948, the UN General Assembly passed Resolution 194 which declared (amongst other things) that in the context of a general peace agreement (Which did not and does not yet exit) "refugees wishing to return to their homes and live in peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so" and that "compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return." The resolution also mandated the creation of the United Nations Conciliation Commission. However, parts of the resolution were never implemented, resulting in the Palestinian refugee problem.

[Richard Steele]

215. Wiki? As a source of reliable info to base my opinions upon? BWAhahahaha!

Good one, Papau! I laughed so hard, I peed myself a little! :rofl:







Maybe WIKI can post an explanation for the DELETION
of the message you responded to.

And "MAYBE" monkeys "MIGHT" fly out of my shiny metal ass.......

[rman]

181. Do you neglect to remember all the fucking deaths Israel has caused?

Roughly 30 to 1 kill ratio - most of them innocent civilians?

[PCIntern]

202. OK, to make you happy,

the Israelis should be less efficient and DIE MORE, so that the playing field is evened out.

Here's a question: How many more Israelis have died at Olympic Games than Arabs? Ooops, it seems that there's a pretty big kill ratio there.

What do you suggest?

[rman]

178. Ahmadinejad does not say the holocaust is a myth

video, MSNBC interview:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x11132

[Anarcho-Socialist]

207. Instead he invited a "Who's Who" of holocaust deniers to a conference

in Iran to say that for him.

[w4rma]

179. If Israel uses a "tactical" / "small" / "large" /"insert PR adjective here" nuke it will end Israel.

I hope the neo-cons running Israel's government aren't insane enough to use your convoluted and nutty logic, because I'd like Israel to stay around for a very very very long time.

[Junkdrawer]

183. Well, this is a frightening thread...

This "preemptive nuke strike" nonsense is getting more real by the minute. :scared:

[bluewave]

216. Yes, sadly. I thought this was a troll post but then saw many who agreed.

Very alarming from a place like DU.

[Imagevision]

186. Yes Israel will rather go out fighting, - And so will Iran if attacked by Bush

[mdmc]

189. Bring it on

:kick:

[leesa]

196. Olmert may be a bigger nutjob. They have been jabbing and poking

their neighbors to get this war on forever. They have lied about their nukes for decades. If they want their war, they should leave US money and blood out of it.

[Nevernose]

198. Until the 70s, it was called the "Masada Doctrine"

These days it's called the "Sampson Doctrine." Rather than simply kill themselves to deny the enemy, as at Masada, they'll take their enemies with them, as Sampson did when he tore the building down on top of him and his enemies.

[Placebo]

204. No offense...

but your post is extremely disturbing in many ways.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

213. Understatement of the year. And we're still in early January!

:thumbsup:

[oblivious]

217. So true. One hardly knows where to begin.

[porphyrian]

205. Israel != Jews. Jews != Israel.

Israel is very important to most Jews, and most Israelis are Jewish, but the two are not interchangeable.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

210. Do you mean "Israel" the government? Or, Israelis in general?

I find it hard to believe that even a majority of Israelis are in favor of a pre-emptive war against Iran.

[Broadslidin]

220. Fortress Israel Should Expect to be Hung Out To Dry, When Crude Oil.....!

is no longer recoverable in the Middle East!

And as with all highly aggresive Imperial Nation States,
a financially bankrupt America will withdraw into itself.

[pinto]

228. Locking.

This discussion is more appropriate for the Israel/Palestine forum. There are other current threads on this topic being discussed there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=124

Thanks.